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[thezone]

Hi,

Just want to get an idea of some advanced user's PC AV setups, just the basics, don't want to make this too complicated as Im trying to solve a couple of small issues without troubling everyone and getting bogged down with too much detail.  One issue is av sync, the other is getting my audio card to work in the hdmi chain in order to use its decoding functions so I can use the videoclock function and solve the first issue.

Anyway at present I have a GTX 660Ti and MC is bitstreaming to my rotel receiver thru hdmi. I use WASAPI - event style as I find this the least buggy. This setup will handle any video and audio combos I can through at it except for the av sync issue. I have tried ASIO (using both ASIO4ALL and asus asio drivers) but it doesnt pass thru some audio file formats and MC gives me a audio not supported playback error.

I have an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe Im am trying to slip into the hdmi chain but it doesnt want to bitstream HD audio and MC keeps telling me that it doesnt support certain audio formats which is obviously wrong (Im not blaming MC just trying to work out why its doing this). Ideally I would like to use the videoclock function to solve sync issues using the zonar for the audio perhaps to convert the hd audio to pcm? Is anyone using separate video and audio outputs directly to their receiver? Eg hdmi with video only from the graphics card and multichannel pcm audio from the audio card and using videoclock?

I would be interested in anyone who is using an external audio card or DAC.

Cheers!

[mwillems]

Is anyone using separate video and audio outputs directly to their receiver? Eg hdmi with video only from the graphics card and multichannel pcm audio from the audio card and using videoclock?

I am sending video and audio separately in my set up and am using videoclock, but my set up is a little different than yours.  I'm sending HDMI video to my television through my NVidia Graphics card, and sending analog sound directly to my receiver(s) using my Asus Xonar DX soundcard as my DAC (I am not bitstreaming audio).  I previously had audio/video sync problems (a few months ago), but now my sync is perfect with videoclock.

I have three thoughts about the AV sync based on my own troubleshooting that might help:

1) The Asus DACs are pretty low distortion, have you tried passing analog signal to your receiver instead of bitstreaming? I understand that may not be an option depending on your receiver/situation, but the Asus card you have (the HDAV) has a much nicer DAC than mine (the DX), and mine sounds pretty good, even when played on very sensitive compression drivers.

2) Have you tried the "unofficial" Unified Asus Drivers?  I couldn't get good ASIO function from my Asus using the official drivers, I had problems syncing video and audio, and had hiccups even using large buffers.  The Unified drivers solved my problems completely (I can run with a .05 second buffer with no hiccups and everything's synced).  Asio4All is just a software wrapper around a kernel driver, so it's likely a false lead, you need native ASIO drivers to get low latency (whether official or unofficial).

3) If you're already using the unified drivers or are uncomfortable with unofficial drivers, have you tried fooling around with the buffer size to see if that helps/hurts performance?  I know it resolved my early sync issues once I got the buffer small enough. I'm not sure how relevant that is to bitstreaming, but it certainly helped me.

You mention that your card is refusing certain audio formats?   Which ones?

[thezone]

Hi mwillems thanks for the reply.

1) I guess I have been resisting using the asus Xonar HDAV as a dac, I have a friend who is a sound engineer (they are usually a bit old school with this sort of tech) but he advises against using internal pc dacs due to the internal noise floor from the pc itself. I realise this is a bit anal but I am running some fairly high end gear like primare, dynaudio etc and wanted to try and keep the dac outside of the pc. Even if the xonar dac was good then theres the issue of the analogue cables degrading the sound from the pc to the receivers analogue inputs, theres too many analogue stages here. I guess I'm answering my own question here in a way, I should probably get a good external dac.  I decided that hdmi was the shortest digital path and you can keep an eye on what audio formats are being output by the screen on the receiver.

2) I haven't used the unofficial ASUS ASIO drivers and I'm all for it! Can you point me to a trusted source for these?

3) I havent tried playing with buffer sizes because I will play around with that thanks.

MC18 is advising that the Xonar cannot handle a could of HD audio formats such as DTS-HD master but I think the issue is happening somewhere in this chain MC18>Nvida GTX 660Ti>Asus Xonar>Receiver. MC18 is set to bitstream but something is trying to decode it or is refusing to pass it along the way. If I change the path to MC18>Nvida GTX 660Ti>Receiver bitstreaming works perfectly.

[InflatableMouse]

If you wish to bitstream, you should use hdmi. The Xonar has an s/pdif but that doesn't support all multichannel formats and HD audio formats are not supported over s/pdif at all.

If I change the path to MC18>Nvida GTX 660Ti>Receiver bitstreaming works perfectly.

This is the correct way to bitstream.

[mwillems]

Hi mwillems thanks for the reply.

1) I guess I have been resisting using the asus Xonar HDAV as a dac, I have a friend who is a sound engineer (they are usually a bit old school with this sort of tech) but he advises against using internal pc dacs due to the internal noise floor from the pc itself. I realise this is a bit anal but I am running some fairly high end gear like primare, dynaudio etc and wanted to try and keep the dac outside of the pc. Even if the xonar dac was good then theres the issue of the analogue cables degrading the sound from the pc to the receivers analogue inputs, theres too many analogue stages here. I guess I'm answering my own question here in a way, I should probably get a good external dac.  I decided that hdmi was the shortest digital path and you can keep an eye on what audio formats are being output by the screen on the receiver.

If all you're trying to do is pass a digital HDMI signal, why even use the sound card at all? I think the HDAV 1.3 does actually support HDMI out (not just SPDIF), based on the technical specs, but a digital signal is a digital signal.  Your video card will send digital sound just as well.  Unless you're doing something I'm not following

That said, I'd recommend that you at least try the DAC on the card.  The ASUS card DACs are definitely better than half the external consumer DACs I've used, and the card is shielded.  If you don't like it, switch back.  You're not adding any more analogue stages than, say, someone who uses a pre-amp and a poweramp (in this example your Xonar card is the pre-amp).

2) I haven't used the unofficial ASUS ASIO drivers and I'm all for it! Can you point me to a trusted source for these?

Here's the developers homepage: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/ .  You can also just google unified xonar drivers and he'll come up first.

3) I havent tried playing with buffer sizes because I will play around with that thanks.

MC18 is advising that the Xonar cannot handle a could of HD audio formats such as DTS-HD master but I think the issue is happening somewhere in this chain MC18>Nvida GTX 660Ti>Asus Xonar>Receiver. MC18 is set to bitstream but something is trying to decode it or is refusing to pass it along the way. If I change the path to MC18>Nvida GTX 660Ti>Receiver bitstreaming works perfectly.

As noted above (by Inflatable Mouse) if all you want is a digital signal, I'm not sure why you don't use the video card's HDMI output.  Unless I'm missing something, it will output an HDMI audio signal just as well.

If you wish to bitstream, you should use hdmi. The Xonar has an s/pdif but that doesn't support all multichannel formats and HD audio formats are not supported over s/pdif at all.

Actually I think his Xonar does support HMDI: http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_HDAV13/ ... Unless I'm misreading the specs?

But I agree with you that if all he wants is an HDMI signal he's probably better off using the video card for both streams

[Jong]

Hi thezone.

As discussed elsewhere I would suggest decoding the audio in MC, so you can use Videoclock to eliminated just about all video judder. There is really no advantage to decoding audio in your receiver. Decoded audio is still being sent digitally (DAC done by receiver) and HD audio is mostly lossless, so, by definition, it is decoded identically whereever it is done. You will need to get hold of the Arcsoft DTS decoder however for DTS-HD.

I too can see no reason to use a Xonar to pass digital audio. There was a short period several years ago when the GPU makers' HDMI implementations did not properly/fully support HDMI audio, but that time is long passed!

And, as mentioned elsewhere, don't overdo your MadVR upscaling settings if you don't want problems with interlaced material.

[InflatableMouse]

Correct, the HDAV has hdmi as well, I was thinking of the H6.

Either way, only one hdmi should be used, either the videocards, or the HDAV's (does the HDAV do video as well or is that just audio over hdmi?). What do I know, just use the videocard .

[gvanbrunt]

As discussed elsewhere I would suggest decoding the audio in MC

The Zone: I was also "old school" because of the "noise floor" etc. These are a valid arguments to a point, but with the quality of dacs etc built into sound cards now a days it isn't as applicable anymore. There are interdependent reviews of many cards out there that put some cheap sound cards above the limit of human hearing unless you turn it up to damaging levels.

I also used to bitstream and had issues every so often. I finally bit the bullet and let MC just decode everything and pass the audio via HDMI to my receiver. I no longer get the "pretty blue light" when I listen to HD Audio, but I can live with that. MC is top notch in the audio department, and letting it do the conversion instead of the receiver really makes no difference.

Now that I've finally gotten over my ingrained way to do it the "old school" or conventional way, I'm much happier. I can spend my time listening to music or enjoying movies instead of messing with settings etc...

[mwillems]

I was also "old school" because of the "noise floor" etc. These are a valid arguments to a point, but with the quality of dacs etc built into sound cards now a days it isn't as applicable anymore. There are interdependent reviews of many cards out there that put some cheap sound cards above the limit of human hearing unless you turn it up to damaging levels.

Exactly.  The HDAV 1.3 has a rated THD+N in the ten-thousandths of a percent, and a rated SNR of 120 dB.  I don't know whether those ratings are actually transparent, but the lower end Asus cards (some of which share key architecture with the HDAV 1.3) have been independently tested over at TechReport.com, and tended to meet or exceed their rated specs.  Many receivers I've used don't have DACs half that good.

@The Zone: If you're seriously thinking about an external DAC, if you can find an 8-channel external DAC that has better specs than the HDAV for less than $1000, let me know, I've been looking for one ;-)

[Jong]

The Zone: I was also "old school" because of the "noise floor" etc. These are a valid arguments to a point, but with the quality of dacs etc built into sound cards now a days it isn't as applicable anymore. There are interdependent reviews of many cards out there that put some cheap sound cards above the limit of human hearing unless you turn it up to damaging levels.

I also used to bitstream and had issues every so often. I finally bit the bullet and let MC just decode everything and pass the audio via HDMI to my receiver. I no longer get the "pretty blue light" when I listen to HD Audio, but I can live with that. MC is top notch in the audio department, and letting it do the conversion instead of the receiver really makes no difference.

Now that I've finally gotten over my ingrained way to do it the "old school" or conventional way, I'm much happier. I can spend my time listening to music or enjoying movies instead of messing with settings etc...

but if you are sending digital audio over HDMI the Sound card DACs are not used anyway. All that is happening is the audio is being decoded, digitally, in a different place and, as I said before, for lossless audio this is not going to be different wherever it is done. Yes, if Videoclock is slightly changing the media speed to match your refresh rate there will be an ever so slight change to the audio but this is still IMO well worth it to get guaranteed smooth video.

[mwillems]

but if you are sending digital audio over HDMI the Sound card DACs are not used anyway. All that is happening is the audio is being decoded, digitally, in a different place and, as I said before, for lossless audio this is not going to be different wherever it is done. Yes, if Videoclock is slightly changing the media speed to match your refresh rate there will be an ever so slight change to the audio but this is still IMO well worth it to get guaranteed smooth video.

I think gvanbrunt was responding to my attempt up-thread to persuade The Zone to try using the DAC in his soundcard instead of sending digital audio over HDMI as a potential solution to his problem.  He invested in a soundcard with a very nice DAC, it seemed like a shame to bypass it completely :-)

Obviously if he wants to send digital audio and use his receiver's DAC you're completely right, the soundcard is basically out of the picture entirely (unless the NVIDIA card's HDMI doesn't work correctly for his application).

[gvanbrunt]

but if you are sending digital audio over HDMI the Sound card DACs are not used anyway.

Yes that is true.  Many people tend to confuse or combine DACs and decoding. It sounded like the zone was thinking along those lines. I was just trying to "uncomplicate things". I was also referring to decoding which is not done by MC if you are bitstreaming.

[thezone]

Wow! Thanks for all the input guys really appreciate it!

The Zone: I was also "old school" because of the "noise floor" etc. These are a valid arguments to a point, but with the quality of dacs etc built into sound cards now a days it isn't as applicable anymore. There are interdependent reviews of many cards out there that put some cheap sound cards above the limit of human hearing unless you turn it up to damaging levels.

I also used to bitstream and had issues every so often. I finally bit the bullet and let MC just decode everything and pass the audio via HDMI to my receiver. I no longer get the "pretty blue light" when I listen to HD Audio, but I can live with that. MC is top notch in the audio department, and letting it do the conversion instead of the receiver really makes no difference.

Now that I've finally gotten over my ingrained way to do it the "old school" or conventional way, I'm much happier. I can spend my time listening to music or enjoying movies instead of messing with settings etc...

Thanks gvanbrunt I am happy to let MC do the decoding and you have given me a little more confidence in allowing it this task and I understand that its still digital and lossless as pcm but:

1) How can I be sure that windows wont interfere with the decoding somehow?
2) How do I know its not just playing the dolby core?

Without the receiver's confirmation of the bit/sampling rate or pretty "blue light" as you say is there anyway to be sure that the audio is not being dithered down and up again (whilst still remaining digital ) by MC or nvidia or windows? I don't trust windows and the only way to be sure in the past was to bitstream.

Maybe Im being overly paranoid but I hate to think that i spend all this time, effort and money on a high end system and end up listening to compressed audio!

[Jong]

As long as you have the right audio stream selected then MC will not play the compressed Dolby soundtrack (in fact there is no such thing, pedantically, as a Dolby core, but I get what you mean). In order to ensure you do not play the DTS core you have to get hold of a copy of the Arcsoft DTS decoder (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray#Decoding_for_DTS-HD). You need to make sure you put it in the right place. Personally I prefer to put it in the appropriate Windows system folder, rather than in the JRiver appdata folder, because then you can be sure it will stay there when JRiver is updated. If you REALLY want to be sure the decoder is being used then you need to get "Process Explorer" and check the Arcsoft dll is loaded when playing a DTS-HD video.

As long as you use WASAPI in exclusive mode you can be 100% sure Windows is not touching your audio. Of course MC will be, but it has always had a very good very high precision audio path. High quality audio is where it's roots are. You just need to check what audio processing you have enabled and what it is doing and make sure you want it. MC can show you the "audio path" it is using which will tell you.

The one slightly problematic area is Videoclock. This is a highly valuable feature. Most GPUs have pretty inaccurate clocks, inaccurate enough that by themselves they will cause video judder every few minutes at least. Videoclock can speed up or slow down the video ever so slightly to mean judder occurs every few days instead - i.e. almost never. But to do that it has to resample the audio at the new speed. Resampling is not like compression and it is a precise, mathematically exact process but clearly it is changing your audio. By default MC also corrects for the minute (inaudible if you have at least a matching refresh rate selected on your GPU) pitch shift caused by resampling. A purist would not like this - repitching is a somewhat less perfect process than resampling. You can safely disable repitching, if you wish, provided you switch the refresh rate to be compatible with your media (50Hz for PAL, 59.940 or 60 for NTSC, 23.976 or 24 for bluray or other 24p video (59.940 or 60 can also be used for these but you will then get "pulldown judder")). On the other hand MC repitching seems to work very well and if you are not too much of a purist you can probably leave it enabled and make your life simple!

[thezone]

Awesome Jong, Thank you for explaining that in a clear and concise manner! I think I will need to re-read a few times before attempting. At the end of the day I really didn't want to use the mouse on my lounge watching movies (theres nothing more annoying that moving in the dark and having the cursor appear on the screen!). This sounds like it might be very mouse intensive but if it makes playback smoother Ill give it a go!

Cheers.

[Jong]

No, no mouse needed! MC can change the refresh rate of your display automatically to suit the media 

[gvanbrunt]

1) How can I be sure that windows wont interfere with the decoding somehow?
2) How do I know its not just playing the dolby core?

For #1 if using Red October, windows doesn't have any involvement in the choice of filters. MC builds the filter graph and connects things in the best possible way. MC has long been known to be one of the best audio players on the market. So much so that many audiophiles use it because the quality and attention to detail are second to none. It is designed from the ground up to have the best possible audio. In this case, you just have to trust that MC's engine won't let you down. After you read the threads for many years (like I have) you will be confident that that is true based on what the developers say and do. The nice thing about MC is the developers are here on the forums every day and talk to many people directly. Or you can do some searching where there is lots of information about this.

For #2, the only way to be sure is to check which stream is selected, but MC usually makes good choices there as well.

[thezone]

Thanks again for your input guys I will certainly play with this when I have some time!

No, no mouse needed! MC can change the refresh rate of your display automatically to suit the media  

MC doesn't seem to do this perfectly all the time eg: Sometimes I may have to re-star mc or go in and out of a movie before it will select the correct frame rate. When I have enabled auto desktop settings changes in options>Video>Display settings do I need to also customise the FILM (23.976 fps), FILM (24fps) fields as well? They are all set to desktop settings by default.

For 29.97 mc is picking 60 rather than 59.94.

[Jong]

Yes, you probably should set 23.976 and 24fps too. You should be able to select "59" for NTSC, but with Videoclock 60 should be pretty fine too.

[gvanbrunt]

When I have enabled auto desktop settings changes in options>Video>Display settings do I need to also customise the FILM (23.976 fps), FILM (24fps) fields as well? They are all set to desktop settings by default.

To add to what Jong said: Yes, you set them to the closest matching settings that your video card and TV/Monitor can display. Most TV's etc will only do NTSC or PAL, but not both. In my case I have PAL (50hz) set to Desktop as my TV can't display it. I let videoclock fix the timing. The rest are all set to the closest match. In my case they are exact as my TV supports them.

[Jong]

Actually with HDTVs most sets sold in PAL countries support 50, 59/60 and 23/24.

[Jong]

Another solution, if you really struggle with refresh rate switching is to stick to 50hz (as you are in a PAL country). MC with Videoclock will then do the same speed up of blu-ray/24p material as is currently done by those making PAL DVDs. Even True NTSC material (not quality US Drama, mostly sitcoms and talk shows!) will play no worse than when those same shows are rebroadcast on PAL TV channels. It certainly simplifies things a great deal  

[gvanbrunt]

Actually with HDTVs most sets sold in PAL countries support 50, 59/60 and 23/24.

Figures. Only us in NA get screwed..

I used to buy stuff from Singapore back in the eighties when there were 3 standards. SECAM being the third. Back then it took a lot of doing to get all three working on VCR's and TVs. With today's technology it takes little effort to support them. Why 50Hz is not supported on NA TVs is beyond me. I have a Series 8 SAMSUNG (top of the line) and it doesn't support it. Now I know where to buy my next set though... I just have it shipped here.

[Jong]

Yes, I used to have imported multi-system sets too for NTSC DVD playback.

Now though you have all the new complexity of digital tuners and apps (Hulu etc.). Unless you only plan to use with external sources you'd need some good info to be sure the set would work at its fullest in the US.

[thezone]

Actually with HDTVs most sets sold in PAL countries support 50, 59/60 and 23/24.

The interesting thing here is that my HDTV supports 60 and 24 just not sure about 59/23. If I make the change in MC to either 24 or 23 the tv acknoledges there has been a change and then in both cases flashes up the 24 hz notification. Same goes for 59 and 60, both are reported by the tv as 60. Madvr states in the OSD that the display is 23.967 or 59.997 but is that referring to the grpahics card or the HD panel? Is that whats being output to the panel? If so maybe the panel then could be making a further adjustment to get to 24 or 60?

[Jong]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Just turn on Videoclock and let it match frame rate to whatever your refresh rate is. You are never going to get your GPU spot on either 24 or 23.976 anyway.

[glynor]

I also used to bitstream and had issues every so often. I finally bit the bullet and let MC just decode everything and pass the audio via HDMI to my receiver. I no longer get the "pretty blue light" when I listen to HD Audio, but I can live with that. MC is top notch in the audio department, and letting it do the conversion instead of the receiver really makes no difference.

After trouble I encountered this weekend, I'm making this jump too.

I always used Bitstreaming because it was easier.  But it is becoming less and less "easy" as time goes on, and I'm to the point where I might as well just figure out the DTS-MA decoding stuff and switch to using MC.

[gvanbrunt]

After trouble I encountered this weekend, I'm making this jump too.

I always used Bitstreaming because it was easier.  But it is becoming less and less "easy" as time goes on, and I'm to the point where I might as well just figure out the DTS-MA decoding stuff and switch to using MC.

Yep, know the feeling. I'm much happier now that I did it. Old habits die hard, but that was one I was happy to let go of...

[BartMan01]

Figures. Only us in NA get screwed..

I just looked a couple of the current line of TV's in the NA market and was (mildly) surprised that to find ANY mention of the refresh rates the set can display (beyond the fudged 240 numbers) you have to actually download and dig through the owners manuals.  I didn't see any NA direct view sets that showed any support for PAL refresh rates and even true 24p support still isn't a given.  Guess I am just lucky that my new projector does them all.

On my main system (AV is a Denon 3310), I still prefer to use bit-streaming.  I don't have any issues with that and on more than one occasion it has helped me quickly catch that MC was not sending my preferred audio stream.  Ironically, my living room system where I am letting MC do everything is the only one I ever have playback issues with (audio/video sync issues, stutter, etc).

One reason to use bit-streaming for me is that my receiver does different things (processing wise) with the audio based on what it sees coming it.  I would lose that if everything was PCM.  For example, right now it knows that if it sees 2 channel DD it automatically engages pro logic processing, but if it sees 2 channel PCM it engages direct stereo processing.

[glynor]

One reason to use bit-streaming for me is that my receiver does different things (processing wise) with the audio based on what it sees coming it.  I would lose that if everything was PCM.  For example, right now it knows that if it sees 2 channel DD it automatically engages pro logic processing, but if it sees 2 channel PCM it engages direct stereo processing.

That was one of the reasons I resisted switching initially as well.  My Denon can do DTS Neo expansion on stereo sources, and I can have separate settings for two-channel Dolby Digital.  I generally preferred DTS Neo 6 to Dolby for most generic two-channel audio sources, but not for all things.

But, frankly, I've subsequently done a lot of testing, and JRSS is just as good as DTS Neo 6, and (IMHO) better than Dolby Pro Logic.

The main thing holding me back now was:

1. Lazy.
2. Figuring out how to support DTS-MA decoding through Red October.

I still need to do #2, but... I'm rebuilding my HTPC this weekend anyway (swapping motherboards), and with the trouble I've had with my Dolby Digital TV recordings, it is just time.

FYI, the trouble I had over the weekend was this:

I generally have, as you should, MC set to WASAPI Exclusive mode.  However, this weekend, we had some people over, and they wanted to keep one eye on the football game.  During the first game, this wasn't an issue, because everyone was watching it intently.  However, for the later game, no one was watching it "full time", we just wanted it on "in the background" so they could check scores from time to time.  In the meanwhile, I wanted to run MC and play some music.

Wow.  This turned out to be a major pain.  I made a second Zone in MC and set it up as "non-exclusive".  This worked fine, but SageTV kept crapping out.  The problem wasn't MC, it was SageTV.  Sage was, of course, also all set up to bitstream audio, and I couldn't figure out how to disable it (because delicious bourbon), and so when I'd launch the TV channel, it would work for a while, but then when MC would change tracks, it would freeze SageTV.

Plus, I have trouble using Web audio.  If I'm watching a web video in the browser, it works fine.  I get two-channel audio and my receiver applies DTS Neo 6 to it to expand it to surround.  But this sounds terrible for music (way too center-focused), and I don't have the remote to the Denon accessible (it is in a closet somewhere with no batteries).  Almost all of this would have been simpler to solve if I was just not using bitstreaming anywhere.

In my whiskey-induced rage, I vowed to stop using silly bitstreaming.  I sobered up, of course, but still think this was probably the right call.

[thezone]

Dude, just after I had come out of bit-streamacholics annon!

On my main system (AV is a Denon 3310), I still prefer to use bit-streaming.  I don't have any issues with that and on more than one occasion it has helped me quickly catch that MC was not sending my preferred audio stream.  Ironically, my living room system where I am letting MC do everything is the only one I ever have playback issues with (audio/video sync issues, stutter, etc).

"audio/video sync issues" Wouldnt this be due to the fact that you are bitstreaming?

"stutter, etc" This would be because your refresh rate is wrong eg set to 24 fps when it should be 23.976 or close to it? This is covered i this thread earlier.

"quickly catch that MC was not sending my preferred audio stream." Sadly I have this issue when bitstreaming, MC doesnt always pick the right audio track or the correct framerate but it happens randomly so I might open a BD iso and it picks the wrong everything (60fps instead of 23 fps) and 2ch pcm audio, then I stop playback open a different movie with different audio and framerate and it will choose everything correctly then stop that movie and go back to the first and it chooses correctly this time. In order to switch to videoclock Im trying to work a solution that allows me to check the framerates and hd audio with the remote rather than have to fiddle around with the mouse.

One reason to use bit-streaming for me is that my receiver does different things (processing wise) with the audio based on what it sees coming it.  I would lose that if everything was PCM.  For example, right now it knows that if it sees 2 channel DD it automatically engages pro logic processing, but if it sees 2 channel PCM it engages direct stereo processing.

Also a valid point, although.... i use the MC on my HTPC to play both music where you want 2ch to stay 2ch or say live tv or older sd dvd's where you want the 2ch to be played as dolby pro-logic. I can quickly change these on my rotel receiver with the remote but it would be nice to be able to configure these in MC.

[BartMan01]

"audio/video sync issues" Wouldnt this be due to the fact that you are bitstreaming?

"stutter, etc" This would be because your refresh rate is wrong eg set to 24 fps when it should be 23.976 or close to it? This is covered i this thread earlier.
 

You misread - this is happening on the system where I am NOT bit-streaming and using MC audio with video clock.  That setup has a TV that only does 60.  The issues are more related to how MC deals with MPEG2 content in an MKV file, but it only seems to happen on that one machine and has never happened with the same files on my bitstreaming setup.

[BartMan01]

In order to switch to videoclock Im trying to work a solution that allows me to check the framerates and hd audio with the remote rather than have to fiddle around with the mouse.

Just started a new feature request thread to add such and 'info summary view', feel free to pipe up in there.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77330.0

[jmone]

Here is my summary recommendations (for what it is worth).
- Decode Audio in MC (add the dtsdecoderdll.dll for complete decoding of all formats - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray#Decoding_for_DTS-HD)
- Enable Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings--> Enable Automatic Display Settings changing and select the refresh rates that your Video Card/TV/Monitor Supports that is closest to the refresh rate (or a multiple) for each of the FPS. 
- Enable Tools--> Options--> Video--> Video Clock (it will keep your Audio and Video perfectly in Sync)

The bit that everyone gets bent out of shape on is should I use 23.976 or 24hz.  Well most BD come from film and they are filmed in 24fps.  For compatibility with the NTSC broadcast spec the timestamps are slowed slightly to 23.976 (how I HATE NSTC for this bodge).  It really does not matter if you have the settings above (but does if you insist on Bitstreaming but appart from missing the pretty lights on your AVR I think you are nuts to bitstream when you have these options in MC).  If you GPU exposes both then try both, and pick the one (or either) that plays smoothly.  Some GPU/TV like one better than the other...sometimes they show you both but they are the same anyway...mostly it will look and sound the same.  I use 24hz.  The same goes for 59.976 and 60hz.  For use PAL users 25/50 is well 25 or 50..nice and easy!

If you use these three settings you can just kick back and enjoy the content as all the complexity melts away and the quality is as good as it gets!

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

Once you have the above basic setup.... you can start on the next round "fun" stuff like:
- have you the correct Video Range set (Full VS Limited) and what is stuffing this up?
- how to push the best scaling out of madVR that your GPU can tolerate without dropping frames or melting through the core of the earth!

[thezone]

hey jmone you make it sound very appealing indeed your saying that once its all set, mc can just smooth it all out for optimum viewing. I like this idea! I am going to give non-bitstreaming a demo for a while with videoclock.

Now what do you recommend for Video Range set? Naturally I expect that full is best, my hdtv is supposed to support this but I bet threes more to it than that!

[jmone]

Give the suggested setting a go and make sure it is all working (should be easy but....!).  Once OK then lets check the other stuff like the various settins for the Video Range.  Video is normally "Limited" (16-235) but PC's are normall Full (0-255) but there are several interactions between the video renderer, the video driver, and your AV/TV equipment.  At then end of the day you want a test pattern like the following to check if you are seeing the correct range for video.  You will also want to check you are not doing multiple conversions at each stage.

Test Clips:  The Classic Cheese Slices --> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1157287/hd-1080i-test-pattern-to-determine-vector-adaptive-deinterlacing-others-icl-ticker
AVSHD 709 Calibration:  More Calibration Clips than you can poke a stick at http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration .  That said I really like this one https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/Brightness%20and%20Contrast.m2ts especially the 3-6min mark as it helps to quickly verify if you have the whole Full Vs Limited / Contrast and Brightness settings correct for your setup.

[thezone]

Well I copied the dts dll over from TMT 5 and put it in wow64. Turned off bitstreaming and turned on video clock. Played a DTS MA-HD bd iso (EW&F live at The Greek) and the audio sounds like its got a phase shifter on it, its awful! Switched back to bit-stream and perfect sound again! Whats going on!

[Jong]

We need more info. Check the Audio path - what does MC say it is doing to the audio? And do a screen grab of the video with MadVR OSD. This will allow us to be sure what refresh rate is being used. If all that looks right  then you'd need to check your AVR as it may be set to process PCM differently.

If none of that helps it may, as I said earlier, be that you want to disable the pitch correction in MC. You should not need it if using compatible rates anyway. I'd be very interested if this fixes your problem! Before MC I used Reclock and always advised people to disable pitch correction as it horribly mangled the phase coherence, especially between fronts and rears and fronts and centre. Personally I have found MC to do a better job but still it is true that pitch correction is inherently a less than perfect process, particularly for multi-channel sound.

[thezone]

Sorry I did this in a hurry.

MC 18 audio path




MadVR OSD

[Jong]

Hmm, sorry I don't know  

That all looks good but I am sure a few months ago Videoclock allowed you to play with both pitch and tempo, but on your system and mine now I can only see it doing a tempo adjustment, in which case all should be fine.

If you can see no setting in your AVR that might be causing the problem you see I'd suggest setting up a separate thread and see if Matt can help you. It sounds like you have a few "interesting" issues at the moment.

[Jong]

At the risk of teaching a grandmother to suck eggs you also need to be very careful to match volume when testing. It is amazing how often volume differences are perceived as quality differences in audio testing.

[InflatableMouse]

I'll risk making a fool out of myself ... 

This sounds like room correction is not setup properly. I had a similar effect when I moved room correction from my receiver to Media Center when channel distances were not set correctly.

[Jong]

Yes, it is quite possible all that is being bypassed in the AVR, at least by default, by moving to PCM input.

[jmone]

What Fun!  Considering that the PCM stream is just a decoded version of the DTS-MA HD stream if there are audible differences it can only be:
- MC doing something : Looks fine (no DSP at all and the temp is just for the VideoClock sync)
- Windows is doing something : Looks fine (WASAPI - Exclusive so nothing else is playing with it)
- AVR is doing something : .....so there must be be difference in processing of the two streams at the AVR end (note: I happily use the Room Correction stuff on my AVR for the input from JR). 

Their are many options in the DSP, one you may want to have a play with is the Output Format.  Do you have a 5.1 or 7.1 system.  If it is 7.1 you may want to check in the DSP Output Format you have either "Source # of Channels" or one mataching the # of Channels with your setup (leave JRSS V2.0 for now).

[thezone]

Thanks for the help guys. I have a 3.1 set up and have the channels in dsp studio set to "source number of channels". My AVR has no room correction ive never needed it my speakers are dynaudio contour s5.4 and SCX   the sound follows you around the room. Apparently these speakers will play in glass boxes. Iits def not room correction, I send pcm to the AVR all the time. I played Casino Royale which has only 5.1 pcm sound and that played fine. Its something to do with MC decoding DTS MA-HD.     

[mwillems]

One likely problem is that JRiver is putting out six audio streams and you only have four speakers hooked up.  It's possible that by bypassing decoding on your receiver, your receiver is no longer downmixing the two surround channels into the mains, and it looks like you don't have JRiver set up to mix the surrounds into your.  I'm not sure that that issue would present as sounding like a "phase shift," but if your receiver isn't downmixing you're going to have some problem with the lost channels sooner or later.  

Do you have any way of telling if your receiver is still downmixing?  Alternatively, you could try using parametric equalizer in DSP Studio to mix the surround channels into your mains and see if that helps the sound.

[jmone]

Decoding is Decoding regardless of what is doing it (eg it is like unzipping a file - it either works 100% or it fails)....  All decoders will produce an identical PCM stream.  It has to be something that the AVR is doing where the streams are being treated differently between the 5.1 PCM vs the Bitstream.  What does your AVR do with the "extra" two channels - does it through them away or mix them in do you know?  Do you have a 3.1 sound field setup on the AVR etc etc.

Does Casino Royale sound the same to you between bitstreaming and decoding in MC?

[thezone]

Sorry guys I'm off to work. I will try all these things when i get back. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated!

[Sandy B Ridge]

I have issues with downmixing PCM on my receiver. I only have room for 5.1 speakers in my lounge, so I expected the receiver to downmix nicely to 5.1. I have some 7.1 channel Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA channel-check clips, which play perfectly when bitstreamed (ie the back surrounds are played by the side surrounds) so that information from all 7.1 channels is mixed appropriately into 5.1 and you hear all 8 channels. When decoding and sending 7.1 PCM to the receiver it doesn't do any processing so the back surround channels are ignored and quiet.

The official answer from the manufacturer confirmed that it does not do any processing on the PCM input and plays the content in a 'pure direct' sort of way. It also doesn't do any room correction when it gets PCM either. Crazy if you ask me. The receiver wasn't cheap either.

I get around it by decoding everything to PCM and down mixing in MCs DSP. I also use videoclock because my receiver doesn't do 23.976 nicely either, so I'm forced into 24.000 (which looks and sounds good)

SBR
SBR