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Author Topic: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?  (Read 3675 times)

chrisjj

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Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« on: February 12, 2013, 07:03:07 pm »

The Artist drop-down here shows single artists e.g. from a small test library:



Most of my tracks are by multi-artist groups which in this case are:

Francisco Canaro; Ernesto Famá
Francisco Canaro; Roberto Maida

Is there some way I can arrange that the Artist drop-down shows such groups? Whilst retaining individual Artists in the database e.g. showing in tree. Without this, currently I have to each time make up the group anew by entering the artists individually. Thanks.
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MrC

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 09:00:44 pm »

Would it be OK to edit a semicolon separated string, like you see in the Artist column?
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MrC

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 09:07:03 pm »

If you want the pull down, create a new expression field (perhaps called Artist (edit)) and enter the value [Artist,0].  Use this field to edit.
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 11:30:12 am »

Would it be OK to edit a semicolon separated string, like you see in the Artist column?

Sure.

If you want the pull down, create a new expression field (perhaps called Artist (edit)) and enter the value [Artist,0].

OK, done that:



Use this field to edit.

It doesn't give a drop-down list:


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MrC

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 11:38:58 am »

It does for me (see attached).

How did you define the field?
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 12:06:39 pm »

It does for me (see attached).

Looks good.

How did you define the field?

In the dialog pictured - titled Expression Editor and produced by the Add Expression Column... command.

EDIT: Ah, I guess you mean a library field. Trying now...
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MrC

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 12:09:39 pm »

That's how you used the field.  Its definition is in Tools > Options > Library & Folders > Manage Library Fields...
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 07:38:56 pm »

(My edit crossed with MrC's reply.)

That's how you used the field.

Actually now I find that I didn't use (or even define) a field - just a column. My mistake. I took your suggestion of defining a (library) field in Options, then ticked it in the file list columns list, and now I get the same edit type as you. Thanks again MrC.

How would you use this to add a new group of existing artists? E.g. these two artists:



The first artist there I selected by Down Arrow. The second I focussed by CTRL+Down Arrow, but a press of the standard multi-select key CTRL+Space fails to add it to the selection. A ENTER press adds only the first artist, ignoring the focussed artist. I'm stumped.

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MrC

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 08:00:46 pm »

Right, multi-select doesn't work here unfortunately.

I thought you used to be able to hit a semicolon and add additional values.  There were some text edit changes recently, and now I'm not sure what the fallout is.

Often I just select all/cut/pick a new value/type ;/paste to include new list items.
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 08:15:46 pm »

Right, multi-select doesn't work here unfortunately.

That's quite a problem. Do you know if it has been reported?

Also broken is Extend Selection - SHIFT-Up/Down-Arrow. It is moving some invisible focus (revealed by the selection move occurring when you following it by plain Up/Down Arrow) but it fails itself to change the selection. (Not that Extend Selection is particularly useful, here.).

Also slightly broken is type selection. It works initially, but selection change operations fails to clear it. E.g. Press 'R' to move down to entry R..., press Up Arrow, press 'R' - no effect.

FWIW, I see the same issues on the regular Artist field.

Often I just select all/cut/pick a new value/type ;/paste to include new list items.

OK, I'll do the same for now. Thanks again.
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glynor

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 08:44:39 pm »

You can multi-select in the panes.  If you're using it for tagging, consider adding the same [Artist (edit)] Field as a pane.

Then you can check the checkboxes.

PS.  If you use the Populate Tree option in your views (and want to see just the normal Artist list in the tree), you can just add this Pane all the way to the right, and you'll never see it unless you "drill down" further than the pane immediately to the left (so, [Album] in a [Genre]\[Artist]\[Album] view, or whatever).
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 09:05:40 pm »

You can multi-select in the panes.  If you're using it for tagging, consider adding the same [Artist (edit)] Field as a pane.

Then you can check the checkboxes.

Thanks G, but fails here. Checkmarking any checkbox causes all others to uncheckmark.


PS.  If you use the Populate Tree option in your views ...

I can't find that in the UI. It is mentioned in Help, but only as part of something called View Schemes which though also mentioned in Help
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/View_Schemes#View_Scheme_View_Settings , again I can't find anything labelled as such in the UI. Nearest I find is Views, but Customise View... does not show Populate Tree.
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glynor

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 09:13:38 pm »

I can't find that in the UI. It is mentioned in Help, but only as part of something called View Schemes which though also mentioned in Help
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/View_Schemes#View_Scheme_View_Settings , again I can't find anything labelled as such in the UI. Nearest I find is Views, but Customise View... does not show Populate Tree.

They changed some names and the Wiki hasn't been updated.

View Schemes = Views.
Populate Tree = Support tree browsing.

It is here:

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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 09:21:32 pm »

Populate Tree = Support tree browsing.

Ah, that. Thanks. Yes I have it checkmarked.
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 05:40:29 am »

Thanks G, but fails here. Checkmarking any checkbox causes all others to uncheckmark.

Do you find the same, G?
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glynor

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 04:49:16 pm »

Yes.  Actually, when I posted that, I didn't realize one small detail.

The reason you can't multi-select Artists (or Genres) all over the place when you edit them directly is because for the entire history of MC, [Artist] and [Genre] were String-Type fields (single entry only style).  This is, for many users (including me) a Very Good Thing.  Otherwise it is a pain to make simple changes to the [Artist] field.

Say, for example, you have some files accidentally tagged [Artist] == The Beetles and you want to change it to [Artist] == The Beatles (or whatever, just replacing the existing contents with something new/fixed).  There is a long historical record of this working simply in MC.  You can:

1. Just click on the box for the right entry in the Artist panes in a view (Pane Tagging).

2. Drag-drop the files from the right-hand file listing onto the proper Artist in the "populated tree" on the left (Tree Tagging).  This is doubly convenient because you can apply multiple tags at once.  For example, if you want to change the [Genre], [Artist], and [Album] for a bunch of files all at once, you can just expand the tree to show the proper "chain" (so long as one file in the library is properly tagged) and then drop the whole lot onto the Album icon in the tree, and it'll retag all three of those fields at once..

3. Or edit it inline in Details view or in the Tag Action Window.

List-Type views are more complicated.  If you do #1 and #2 above, the effect is additive, instead of replacing the existing field contents.  So, you'd end up with a file tagged with BOTH The Beetles and The Beatles.  This isn't probably such a big deal with that example when the two items would likely sort together (so be visible at the same time), but it can be incredibly frustrating when you are trying to do something like change from "Jonathan Coulton" to "Coulton, Jonathan" and you just keep missing the unchecking of that extra box.  It makes all retagging operations require multiple extra steps (and brain power to pay attention to what is there).  It also makes Tree Tagging essentially completely useless (assuming the intention is to replace the existing tag, not add to it).  There are other issues as well (if you use a non-escaped semicolon in a List-Type field it is converted to a new entry, which confuses people too), and it causes additional complications when you want to push tags to disk in a filesystem structure (via Rename, Move, and Copy Files)... Does it scatter junk all around in ugly-named "someguy; somegirl; that_dude" named folders?

That's the history.  People often came here and complained and asked for MC to change so that [Artist] and [Genre] worked as List-Type Fields (like Keywords and other built-in fields where you can multi-select).  The answer was always: Sorry, but no, it has always been that way, and many users prefer it this way for simplicity.  If you want Multi-Selected Artists or Genres or anything else, it is a simple matter to make your own custom user field (say [Artists] or [Artist (Multiple]) or whatever) and just use that instead.

And on and on we went like this, until relatively recently (MC17) when they added the Automatic Metadata Lookup System for movies.

The problem there is that TMDB does provide multiple (list-type) Genres for movies, and for that instance, while I'd never want a music file in more than one [Genre] (because my system is structured that way), it is quite handy to have movies that fall into more than one category (both Animated and Family, for example).  This is made doubly true in that many of TMDB's Genres are quite broad.  They have both broad ones, and more narrow ones, and just give them all to you for each film.  If it was kept as it was, MC would just pick "one of" the Genres provided by TMDB (early builds with this feature did just that, they just used whichever was first in the list).  No good.

So, there were many epic discussions.  I advocated mapping the TMDB Genre list to Keywords instead, which was already a List-Type field in MC.  But, people "call" them Genres, not "keywords", and so that's not so good.  And other people came up with more esoteric suggestions where it would have some kind of crazy priority list and all sorts of other crazy things.  In the end, Matt just pushed a build that did this:

Changed both [Artist] and [Genre] to List-Type Fields.  However, these are "special" List-Type fields that use the old, normal, String-Type "editing controls" throughout MC.  If the field contains a list (semicolon delimited string), it will be displayed and treated as such throughout.  However, when you try to edit the field, it will act like a String-Type field (replacing, not adding).

They threw [Artist] in there because it was a longstanding issue anyway, and this was a good way to shut "both of the camps" up.

The downside was that if you wanted to actually use [Artist] and [Genre] as List type fields with manual tagging (rather than auto-parsed stuff or expression results), you had to do it the "old manual way" by typing in a string with semicolons to separate list items.

It worked.  It shut most of us up, and the system works beautifully for [Genres] for movies, and I (and my ilk) can ignore it for [Artist] and music (as I prefer).
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glynor

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 04:54:42 pm »

Yes.  Actually, when I posted that, I didn't realize one small detail.

So, what is the "small" detail, then, you ask?

Well, I thought you could end-run the system by making a separate custom field that then pointed to the regular [Artist] field.  So, I thought if you made a List Type field called [Artists (Multiple)] and then point that (via an expression) at the regular [Artist] field (essentially using [Artist] to "store" the results of your [Artists (Multiple)] custom field), that you could have the power of the regular List-Type editing style, without mucking the rest of us using [Artist] "normally" up.

That's what MrC essentially just instructed you to do.

Apparently, the fact that [Artist] and [Genre] are "special" ends up being "inherited" by the custom field you make when you do this (to be clear, I haven't tried it, but you did, and apparently it doesn't work).  That stinks, but I can guess why, based on the little I know about MC's expression engine.

I don't know if there is much that can be done.  It would be good to solve this problem, because that would be a simple solution for users like you.  You could just replace [Artist] in all of your views with [Artists], it would work like a List-Type field, and yet the results would be saved in the "standards compliant" regular [Artist] ID3 tag, as a semicolon delimited string (for exchanging with other applications and whatnot).  Unfortunately, it seems like that's not the way it is now...
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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 07:35:48 pm »

Yes.

OK, thanks G.

The reason you can't multi-select Artists (or Genres) all over the place when you edit them directly is because for the entire history of MC, [Artist] and [Genre] were String-Type fields (single entry only style).

Having read your explanation - thanks - I personally don't see why the fact they /used/ to be single-value fields requires their new multi-value form not to allow multi-select.

This is, for many users (including me) a Very Good Thing.  Otherwise it is a pain to make simple changes to the [Artist] field.

Well, there is a standard Windows solution for that. Combo box.

Changed both [Artist] and [Genre] to List-Type Fields.  ...  However, when you try to edit the field, it will act like a String-Type field (replacing, not adding).

The downside was that if you wanted to actually use [Artist] and [Genre] as List type fields with manual tagging (rather than auto-parsed stuff or expression results), you had to do it the "old manual way" by typing in a string with semicolons to separate list items.

It worked.  It shut most of us up

I'm surprised. I'd have though people would have pointed out inability to select values was an obvious deficiency.

And something apparently missed was the UI still /offers/ Add - a plug on the tree tagging cursor, a checkbox in the pane - while not delivering. Devs, perhaps some retouch is in order?

Anyway, no matter - the real problem is as you say:

[Artist] and [Genre] are "special" ends up being "inherited" by the custom field ... That stinks ... I don't know if there is much that can be done.

Fix it??




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chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 10:40:13 am »

the fact that [Artist] and [Genre] are "special" ends up being "inherited" by the custom field you make when you do this

Interestingly, they don't show the same Edit Type:




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kstuart

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 10:23:14 pm »

Not necessarily relevant to chris' situation, but more to "why they made Artist a List"...

In actual audio file types, the tag format would have a Field like:

Artist = John Coltrane

But they did not restrict you to one instance of that Field, so in the case of the 1957 album named "The Cats", people would use:

Artist = John Coltrane
Artist = Tommy Flanagan
Artist = Kenny Burrell
Artist = Idrees Suleiman
Album = The Cats

and then the album would show up in the lists of each of the collaborating artists.

I'm not sure whether MC17 could have simply implemented it in the same way as above, or if the MC database was simply not structured to allow multiple instances of a Field.

chrisjj

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Re: Can Artist drop-down be made to show artist groups?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 08:18:02 am »

I'm not sure whether MC17 could have simply implemented it in the same way as above, or if the MC database was simply not structured to allow multiple instances of a Field.

I presume the format of storage in the file tag - the multi-field format you describe above - is independent of the format in the MC database.

However, since MC's database storage reserves the character ";" as an item separator and so disallows ";" in an item, it seems to me that it would not be able to be fully compatible with the above file tag format which does allow ";" in an item.

Do you know if MC supports the file tag multi-field format for read, write or both?
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