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[joelha]

If the answer to my question appears elsewhere on this site, I'm sorry for posting, but I couldn't easily find it.

I'm interested in finding out if there are digital filters which I can experiment with to get the best sound out of my redbook, higher resolution, and DSD files.

Where would I find these and how would I employ them in MC?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Joel

[dean70]

You can change the filter for DSD under Options\Audio\Advanced\Input plugins...

[joelha]

Thanks for the reply.

These filters indicate that they're for DSD to PCM conversion.

Is there a way to use filters for native DSD playback?

Is there a third party source for adding plug-ins to MC?

Joel

[Mikkel]

What do you want the filters to do? Digital signal processing in the DSP-menu works for any audio output.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[joelha]

Thanks for your reply.

I guess it's less a matter of what I want them to do and more a matter of having a variety of choices from which to tailor the sound.

Are there plug-ins or anything like that which can be used?

Joel

[Mikkel]

Thanks for your reply.

I guess it's less a matter of what I want them to do and more a matter of having a variety of choices from which to tailor the sound.

Are there plug-ins or anything like that which can be used?

Joel

You can find a lot of VST-plugins you can load into JRiver if you want to have several different options for changing the digital signal. But still, what sort of quality improvement are you looking for?


Best regards,
Mikkel

[joelha]

Candidly, I don't know yet.

I've listened to HQPlayer, which I think offers quite a good sound, however its interface is very simple.

I love MC's remarkable configurations.

But as HQPlayer offers so many filters and I've found myself using more than one, depending on the music, I was curious about having the same options for MC.

I'm on the road right now and so can't test anything.

However, would you be good enough to point me to an excellent source of plug-ins for DSD files and instructions for how to install them into MC?

If it sounds like I'm a novice at this digital filter/plug-in thing, then I think I've represented myself pretty well.

Thanks again for your help.

Joel

[kstuart]

Changing the sound is only good if there is something wrong.

The best quality is doing nothing.

If the piano is being played in your living room, then:

* There is no microphone and no speaker
* There is no amplifier
* There is no Analog-to-Digital or Digital-to-Analog conversion
* There is no recording
* There is no digital filter

The problem with recordings is that they add a "veil" between you and the original sound.

It is similar to seeing the outside through a window versus opening the window and seeing directly.  It is always clearer without the window.

So, improving the sound is always about removing audio components - the less the better.

Unless there is already some problem, adding digital filters makes the sound worse, because adding makes sound worse.

[Mikkel]

Unless there is already some problem, adding digital filters makes the sound worse, because adding makes sound worse.

I think that is putting it too strongly. There can be psychoacoustic reasons for changing the original audio signal, hearing deficiencies, poor loudspeaker response etc.

@joelha: Perhaps you could describe what you are doing in the other player you use. That would give us a hint at what you are searching for. JRiver already has a lot of possibilities for digital signal processing and supports even more through VST-plugins.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[kstuart]

Mikkel wrote: "I think that is putting it too strongly. There can be psychoacoustic reasons for changing the original audio signal, hearing deficiencies, poor loudspeaker response etc."

You just explained what I meant by "Unless there is already some problem..."

Almost all loudspeakers have crossovers by necessity.

Compensating for room problems can make playback better, and JRiver Media Center has extensive room correction support, with digital parametric EQ.

[Vincent Kars]

I don’t think it is about adding filters.
It is about having better filters.
The assumption behind the DSP in Signalist HQplayers is that the PC, when programmed right, is a better platform for DSP due to its power and precision than the average DSP chip.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Matt shares this opinion.

DSP studio allows you to build an active crossover. The ultimate step is of course to remove the passive crossover from your speakers and make them true active speakers.

Likewise, if you have an up-sampling DAC e.g. one that up-samples all inputs to 192 kHz, it is possible that using JRiver for up-sampling  has benefits sound quality wise.

Recently I listened to a Auralic Vega DAC.
It doesn’t use a DSP chip but a ARM processor to do the DSP.
I was surprised by the differences in sound between the various filters one could choose.

Filters are a beast, if they do no harm in the frequency domain, they do all kind of nasty things in the time domain and visa versa.

I do think more and different type of filters would be an asset for the DSP studio.

I would like to have a nasty 8 order filter. Beside the bit-tester we have a brickwall tester too!

A good read about filters: http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Why_do_equalisers_sound_different_A4.pdf

[joelha]

@joelha: Perhaps you could describe what you are doing in the other player you use. That would give us a hint at what you are searching for. JRiver already has a lot of possibilities for digital signal processing and supports even more through VST-plugins.

Hi Mikkel,

I'm probably not going to give you much to go on here but the filters I use in HQPlayer are Polysinc and Polysinc-mp. One emphasizes soundstage more and the other emphasizes transient response.

I only saw three options for DSD filters. Where would I find the many other options you mention? And where do you recommend I go for VST-plugins?

Thanks a lot.

Joel

[Mikkel]

Hi Mikkel,

I'm probably not going to give you much to go on here but the filters I use in HQPlayer are Polysinc and Polysinc-mp. One emphasizes soundstage more and the other emphasizes transient response.

I only saw three options for DSD filters. Where would I find the many other options you mention? And where do you recommend I go for VST-plugins?

Thanks a lot.

Joel

The DSP menu has an option to expand the soundstage. Look at DSP-studio --> Effects --> Surroundfield
When you are there perhaps you should turn of 'environment' and 'virtual subwoffer'. They are both under the 'Effects' tab.

Regarding a plugin for transient response: I did a search and found this one http://www.voxengo.com/product/transgainer/. I have no idea if it will suit the purpose but it is able to adjust the attack of the waveform, which as far as I understand is the same as increasing the transient response. Since it is a VST-plugin you can install it in the DSP Studio. You could search for other plug-ins using Words like 'vst', 'plugin', 'attack'.

EDIT: I Wonder if transient response-plugins are compressors? In such case I would be cautious. Compressors have already been used at (too?) great length in your music files to create 'snappy' sound effects, reduced dynamic range etc. This is, I think, a place where loudspeaker/amplifier considerations perhaps make more sense in order to ensure, the loudspeaker responds fast enough across the entire audio band to reproduce short/rapid sounds (transients).

Best regards,
Mikkel

[Mikkel]

Mikkel wrote: "I think that is putting it too strongly. There can be psychoacoustic reasons for changing the original audio signal, hearing deficiencies, poor loudspeaker response etc."

You just explained what I meant by "Unless there is already some problem..."

Indeed I did. I apologize 

[joelha]

The DSP menu has an option to expand the soundstage. Look at DSP-studio --> Effects --> Surroundfield
When you are there perhaps you should turn of 'environment' and 'virtual subwoffer'. They are both under the 'Effects' tab.

Regarding a plugin for transient response: I did a search and found this one http://www.voxengo.com/product/transgainer/. I have no idea if it will suit the purpose but it is able to adjust the attack of the waveform, which as far as I understand is the same as increasing the transient response. Since it is a VST-plugin you can install it in the DSP Studio. You could search for other plug-ins using Words like 'vst', 'plugin', 'attack'.


Best regards,
Mikkel

Thanks very much for your reply, Mikkel.

Do these effects leave the file bit perfect (I realize upsampling certainly doesn't, but I'm curious)?

If sometimes yes and sometimes no, how do I know when the file is being changed and when it isn't?

In HQPlayer, the claim is that the filters leave the file bitperfect.

Sorry for these basic questions soI appreciate your patience in helping me out.

Joel

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much for your reply, Mikkel.

Do these effects leave the file bit perfect (I realize upsampling certainly doesn't, but I'm curious)?

If sometimes yes and sometimes no, how do I know when the file is being changed and when it isn't?

In HQPlayer, the claim is that the filters leave the file bitperfect.

Sorry for these basic questions soI appreciate your patience in helping me out.

Joel

I don't know. Matt or other people with more knowledge would have to tell you.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[kstuart]

A filter removes something from the file.  By definition, it cannot be "bit perfect".