Topic: Automatic Genre Tagging Request (Read 11175 times)

Bengi010 · « **on:** February 23, 2013, 01:49:42 pm »

I was wondering if there is any way to use the meta-data scrapper that works so well for movies and TV on my albums. Specifically my genres are a mess or absent and my library is large enough that tackling it manually is intimidating. After searching the internet and the forum for solutions I found this blog (http://tippopotamus.blogspot.com/2009/05/automatic-mp3-genre-tagging-is-it.html) which does a great job describing exactly what I'm hoping for, and the lack of any solution. I am hoping the JRiver team might be able to accomplish what no one else has been able to as yet.

kstuart · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2013, 02:14:36 pm »

Quote from: Bengi010 on February 23, 2013, 01:49:42 pm

After searching the internet and the forum for solutions I found this blog (http://tippopotamus.blogspot.com/2009/05/automatic-mp3-genre-tagging-is-it.html) which does a great job describing exactly what I'm hoping for, and the lack of any solution.

That page says:

"Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist."

So, let us start again.

Why do you want a Genre tag ? What function will it perform in your use of your music library ?

(That's the first question that needs to be answered, otherwise the answers may solve different needs than yours.)

Bengi010 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:08:01 pm »

Sorry I don't know why the link doesn't work.

I want to be able to use genre tags to create smart lists for specific types of music. Right now my library has about 180 different genres, mostly variations on the same things, and a few thousand files with no genre information. I would like to replace all that with maybe one or two dozen genres and possibly break it down further into some kind of sub genre.

The article I tried to link to described the difficulty of finding consistent, reliable source material. And to that end he surveyed a half dozen or so music databases including Gracenote (formerly CDDB), Freedb, Discogs, iTunes store, Last.fm and Allmusic.

To skip to the results he found All music to be the only one of them that could reliably come up with a small number of believable genre tags for an artist. The problem was that Allmusic's terms of service prevents use of their data.

Anyway I haven't scoured the internet for a better source of data, but I was hoping maybe someone out there knows of a way to make this happen. I'm specifically interested in genre tags at the moment but that's obviously not the only thing it would be nice to have meta data for.

MrC · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:25:37 pm »

Genre tagging is very personal, and this means any collective database will generally not be useful for many (is The Cure in genre rock or alternative, is Mark Knopfler rock, pop, country?).

You best bet would be to tag groups of albums over time, refining them when useful.

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2013, 04:57:22 am »

Quote from: Bengi010 on February 23, 2013, 06:08:01 pm

Sorry I don't know why the link doesn't work.

Because the linked URL is missing the 'L' at the end of htmL.

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2013, 11:29:58 am »

General Genre tags found in Music Brainz for example can be quite useful. I've personally resorted to using very generic Genre tags; of course they are ambiguous. That's what I'm after. For Style field, I sue something specific.

Blues > Chicago Blues, Traditional Blues, Delta Blues, etc.
Americana > Rebel Country, Folk, Folk-Rock etc.

Not sure why we need to ask WHY he/she WANTS Genre tags, lol.

MrC · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2013, 12:16:51 pm »

Many folks use the word "why" (as in, "justify your choice") when they really intend "how" (as in, "help me understand more about your choice").

Bengi010 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2013, 09:45:10 pm »

I fixed the link, my thanks to InflatableMouse for finding the mistake.

daveman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2013, 10:20:12 pm »

I agree. I have the same issue. I would love to have an automated way of creating genres for my 1000's of songs. I also like the idea of Themes as described in the blog posting

dave

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2013, 01:31:36 am »

Is there a single source that could fill the genre field for all your music reliably to a value that you can wholeheartedly agree with?

Because I don't think that exists ...

I understand you don't want to do it manually but I'm afraid if you let it go automatic you won't be happy with the results either.

HiFiTubes · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2013, 01:48:12 am »

Well consider that some Genre may be better than none.

I'm getting Blues Rock tags for example from MB or Discog. And now I can just do a find and replace to transform to Blues, or copy Blues Rock to style.

It's much easier to see which auto-tagged Genres stick out like a sore thumb in my 10-12 Genres, and change them.

Genre is a PITA and so ambiguous, so keeping it uber-generic is one way to tackle it imho. Leave Style for specifics. my .02

Bengi010 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:02:31 pm »

Everyone says that categorizing music into genres and styles is a personal thing, I agree. However to assume that means that I am as capable of it as anyone else doesn't follow. I know what I like but I'm no musicologist and I am the first to admit there's plenty of people out there that know more about music, music history, and how to go about categorizing it all then I do. I'm not looking for perfection, just a little professional help.

Bengi010 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:14:38 pm »

Re: InflatableMouse. "Is there a single source that could fill the genre field for all your music reliably to a value that you can wholeheartedly agree with?"

If you take a look at the link I posted you can see that's exactly what the author was trying to answer. And the source he settled on was AllMusic (AMG). I've played around searching artists on their site and I agree.

I would be totally happy with the results I see there. The Genre tag is very broad, most artists fall under 1 or 2 and seldom more than 5 genres. Styles provide a great further breakdown and specification, but are still limited to a useful number of results (6-10).

Most importantly the tags seem to be consistent across the database including spelling and abbreviations (avoiding having 5 similar but slightly different tags like alt.indie; alt-indie; alternative-indie; etc.)

I haven't read their terms of use, but the blog said they didn't allow use of the db, so maybe it's just wishful thinking, but then again maybe they'd change their policy for the right reasons.

kstuart · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:28:04 pm »

Quote from: Bengi010 on February 27, 2013, 09:02:31 pm

Everyone says that categorizing music into genres and styles is a personal thing, I agree. However to assume that means that I am as capable of it as anyone else doesn't follow. I know what I like but I'm no musicologist and I am the first to admit there's plenty of people out there that know more about music, music history, and how to go about categorizing it all then I do. I'm not looking for perfection, just a little professional help.

This isn't open heart surgery.

Musicians write a series of notes, arranged for various instruments.

Listeners describe it any way they like.

One man's "soul" is another man's "r&b" is another man's "funk".

When you have crossovers, then the music often defies categorization.

In summary, genres are solely to help you find the music you want to hear.

glynor · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:40:28 pm »

FWIW... I'd like to see this too.

But, I also agree completely with MrC and others above on this:

Quote from: MrC on February 23, 2013, 06:25:37 pm

Genre tagging is very personal, and this means any collective database will generally not be useful for many (is The Cure in genre rock or alternative, is Mark Knopfler rock, pop, country?).

True, I wouldn't actually use whatever [Genre] gets set to by such a system. Genre is a core part of my metadata management system, and I need to manage that manually. But, on import of new artists, it might get me closer. Sometimes, I'm not sure what I'm going to tag something when I import it. I buy tracks and albums on Amazon on whims sometimes, if it gets "recommended" by someone I trust, or goes on sale and has good reviews and seems like it might be something I'd like (this has almost always worked out well, and if it fails, I usually lost less than a cup of coffee and a sandwich). So, how is this not just "better than" what the files come pre-tagged with, or what YADB suggests (which is often uselessly vague)?

But, more importantly, I don't just want [Genre]. I want Bios, and Descriptions, and Release Dates, and Lyrics (I know, probably not lyrics), and locations for live events. Something like this, if it was also able to submit things to YADB (or whatever, accept user-generated content from MC as well) could solve problems like kstuart's and my shn conversion problem for live shows. I think it could be a massive help for Jazz and Classical tagging.

I agree, in particular about [Genre], it would NEVER be right for me, and there would have to be a way to be selective about it (which tags it uses and which it doesn't use, minimum), but I think it could get you a start, and it would certainly help to fill in a lot of the "more esoteric" tagging data about my files (which are now, only generally filled for stuff I love, and the rest is missing or completely inconsistent).

Daydream · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2013, 01:32:09 pm »

We need a 'unite-the-clans' moment. What Genre you tag your music with should remain subjective; how many and what specific Genres are available should be fixed, 'the line is drawn here and no further' kind of offer. If AMG can live with a fixed list of 21 genres, 102 sub-genres, 995 styles and 288 moods, so can we.

We need our own database for all these. We need it badly.

And even on the subjective aspect of music tagging. If you are faced with manually tagging 200 albums, or to just import something, anything, already existing in a proper database, and later tweak the tags - you'll take it.

kstuart · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2013, 01:48:37 pm »

Quote from: Daydream on February 28, 2013, 01:32:09 pm

And even on the subjective aspect of music tagging. If you are faced with manually tagging 200 albums, or to just import something, anything, already existing in a proper database, and later tweak the tags - you'll take it.

I think it gets to be OCD after a point.

All of us have a tendency to do things past the point of practical value, and I think tagging music certainly qualifies for that.

The practical value is a) finding music in your collection, and b) displaying information while playing.

A subjective assessment by someone else doesn't help me find something in my collection. I listen to all genres of music, and I don't think I listen to 21 different types of music, and certainly anything past that is pointless.

And when the music is playing, it only needs to display things I may not know. If it is Shuffle Play, I may not know Artist / Album / SongTitle / Duration. I don't need it to tell me that it is Hip-Hop or Jazz - I can tell that by listening.

So, I ignore the online database Genre tags. I can't imagine importing a folder and not knowing the Genre in advance.

Bengi010 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2013, 05:40:13 am »

I think kstuart, you are missing the point of what I want this for. I'm not looking for genre just to have some info scroll across the screen, or to help me find a song.

MC has powerful tools for playlist creation. But to utilise them effectively you need consistent tags.

Lets say I want to make a list of alternative music, with a small percentage of jazz, reggae, soul and rock to mix it up. I can do that either by scrolling manually through tens of thousands of songs. OR I can create a smart list in a couple minutes if the genre tags are filled out consistently.

If we further break down into style and mood you could do some very cool things.

Right now I could do it but large parts of my library would be left out because they are improperly tagged or not tagged at all.

I honestly don't care if I agree 100% with the labels a database uses. That's not the point. I want something consistent I can work with that I can download automatically because I just don't have the hundreds of hours it would take to fix it all manually.

MrC · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2013, 12:05:03 pm »

I think you're going to have to accept the reality that the data providers such as AMG have made it financially impossible for small companies to utilize their services.

And in general, most folks don't care about Genre, so there is little financial incentive for the JRiver's of the world, considering the millions of tracks in existence and non-agreement as to categorizing, to create their own databases, infrastructure, and UI for the submission/selection. JRiver has such a database for CD lookups, but even there, the database, while growing, is incomplete, esp. regarding Genre (and Date).

If you want to move forward, select all your tracks, and tag them with Genre=Pop, and over time, make modifications when necessary. You'll find that many mass genre changes will be easy or obvious, for example Christmas music, or classical or opera where a single category is sufficient for your needs. If this takes you hundreds of hours, then I'll suggest you have no use for genres in the first place and perhaps might want to instead just listen to the music.

Daydream · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2013, 07:45:56 pm »

I understand your point MrC, but we not gonna move even the tip of a needle with the philosophy of 'can't be done'. We need visionaries, we need our heroes...! (loud symphonic music in the background; with genre tags!)

Did we run the numbers to know for sure how the things are, or are we assuming based of a shapeless mass of generalities that things are not doable? $10000 an M1000e chassis, with how many M600 blades, at $5000 a pop, and what bandwidth (assuming JRiver doesn't move to Kansas City) and what power&cooling cost; put on top of it some storage, say an EqualLogic blade array @ $20-30,000- that'll be the cost. Assuming these all will be brand spanking new and is not shared by other services and equipment that JRiver may add to the mix. Now I'd like to know why isn't this doable now, why isn't doable as a future project with costs spread out of a longer time frame, etc - preferable with facts.

And it would bring much needed clarity to this discussion if very smart people would not attempt - probably very well intended, as it so often happens - to create a buffer of smart answers in front of JRiver, and let us hear it from the lion's mouth...!

kstuart · « **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2013, 09:09:51 pm »

Quote from: Daydream on March 01, 2013, 07:45:56 pm

I understand your point MrC, but we not gonna move even the tip of a needle with the philosophy of 'can't be done'. We need visionaries, we need our heroes...! (loud symphonic music in the background; with genre tags!)

Did we run the numbers to know for sure how the things are, or are we assuming based of a shapeless mass of generalities that things are not doable?

There are only so many hours in the day. I doubt there are many people who care to spend more than a few minutes trying to get Genre tags in online databases to be correct.

MrC · « **Reply #21 on:** March 01, 2013, 10:09:27 pm »

I didn't say it can't be done, but perhaps suggesting why it hasn't been done. I was intending to say Move Forward by taking action now with what can be done.

I don't mean to stand in the way of a request.

AnteBios · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2013, 08:04:57 am »

FYI someone (trixmoto) developed a script for MediaMonkey that does exactly what you're looking for. Check here http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15774

The general idea behind the script is that is queries last.fm for the common genre scripts and tags your files accordingly. But what is really powerful is that the genres can be limited to "whitelists" and "blacklists" that you define yourself. So in essence that would limit the genres to whatever ones you want to have in your library.

I'm new to JRiver, so I don't know its scripting capabilities, but I guess it wouldn't be too hard to port his script to JRiver.

Kind regards.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Automatic Genre Tagging Request (Read 11175 times)