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Author Topic: Importing  (Read 2802 times)

mkelly

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Importing
« on: April 13, 2013, 11:46:55 am »

New to JRiver...What is the best format to import music in, assumiing that I am looking for the best possible audiophile quality and have no hard drive space issues.Thanks
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6233638

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Re: Importing
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2013, 12:16:56 pm »

I would probably use Apple Lossless (ALAC) these days, unless you have a need for FLAC files. (ALAC seems to have wider support) You can easily convert between all lossless formats at any time though.
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JustinChase

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Re: Importing
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2013, 01:44:34 pm »

Any lossless should 'perform' the same, but outside acceptance/usability should be your deciding factor, IMO.

Matt, the lead developer here, is also the creator of Monkey's Audio lossless codec (.ape).  It is fully supported inside MC, but has little outside support, so you would need to convert from that format to another format for use of your audio files elsewhere.  However, I've never had any issues with having most of my music in .ape format, since I use MC for most/all of my music reproduction.  If I want to put music on my phone to listen elsewhere, MC automatically converts it for me to an appropriate format, while putting it onto the device, seamlessly.

So, for me ALAC or FLAC are unnecessary.  That is not to say that they aren't good choices, just some other things to consider when making your decision.
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kstuart

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Re: Importing
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 08:33:57 pm »

" ALAC seems to have wider support "

Only in the sense of Apple demanding everyone use Apple formats on Apple devices.

Outside of the Appleverse, FLAC is about 90% of lossless files.

If you do a web search, you'll find more APE than ALAC out there.

6233638

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Re: Importing
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 01:13:22 am »

Apple lossless is open source. I have yet to find a device or player recently that doesn't support playback of Apple Lossless, whether it's made by Apple or not - if it has AAC support, it typically has Apple Lossless support as well.

No Apple devices support FLAC, and I have seen a number of other devices that do support Apple Lossless and don't support FLAC.


That's not to say that you shouldn't use FLAC but after switching to Apple Lossless a year or two back, I have never had to do any file conversions to get my music working on a device. With a FLAC library, I was always having to do conversions to get it working on various devices.

If you are keeping the files inside Media Center, then it shouldn't matter which format you use. (they all compress to within about 5% of each other and quality is the same)
Both FLAC level 5 and ALAC both have very low CPU demands for decoding.
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Neco

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Re: Importing
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2013, 02:37:06 am »

I use FLAC because I do not support Apple when at all possible.

The same reason I have a iPod 120gb  Classic and not a newer model.   Best value for storage space and actually works with MC since its an older device.

When I sync I just convert to MP3 VBR at max quality.   Works good enough for me
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mkelly

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Re: Importing
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2013, 11:23:08 am »

Thanks Guys....interesting and useful ...now for a follow-on question. I have all my music on my computer in iTunes in WAV format (don't how that happened-not sure unless I changed it from AAC in ignorance) is this better than Apple Lossless or *.ape or of a lower quality?
Assuming that .ape or ALAC is better, do I lose anything when i convert using MC?
Or should I re-import my music in ALAC or .ape(and its a lot!)? I can handle the answer  :), just want to know what gives the ultimate best audiophile quality.
Thanks again for help so far  
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JustinChase

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Re: Importing
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 12:20:48 pm »

Thanks Guys....interesting and sueful...now for a follow-on question. I have all my music on my computer in iTunes in WAV format (don't how that happened-not sure unless I changed it from AAC in ignorance) is this better than Apple Lossless or *.ape or of a lower quality?
Assuming that .ape or ALAC is better, do I lose anything when i convert using MC?
Or should I re-import my music in ALAC or .ape(and its a lot!)? I can handle the answer  :), just want to know what gives the ultimate best audiophile quality.
Thanks again for help so far 

I'm not sure if iTunes rips wav lossless or if it's a lossy variant.  You should be able to open iTunes, go to preferences>general>import settings>import using: and then see what the current setting it.  If it's wav lossless, then you only need to convert to the format of your choice (ALAC, FLAC or ape), and your current lossless files will be converted to a different lossless format with NO LOSS OF INFORMATION or fidelity, but will now take about 1/2 as much room as before.

I suggest you use MC to do the conversion, but there are other programs that can do this for you.  I just trust MC to handle it for you without issue.

If it is already lossy, I suggest you re-rip the discs with MC, using the secure rip mode, directly into whichever format you prefer, then delete the lossy versions you already have.

If you have a LOT of discs, you might consider buying another drive for your computer (or a few), since MC can rip multiple discs at one time, which can save you hours of work.  Might be worth the small investment in hardware.
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6233638

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Re: Importing
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 03:05:19 pm »

Thanks Guys....interesting and useful ...now for a follow-on question. I have all my music on my computer in iTunes in WAV format (don't how that happened-not sure unless I changed it from AAC in ignorance) is this better than Apple Lossless or *.ape or of a lower quality?
Assuming that .ape or ALAC is better, do I lose anything when i convert using MC?
Or should I re-import my music in ALAC or .ape(and its a lot!)? I can handle the answer  :), just want to know what gives the ultimate best audiophile quality.
Thanks again for help so far
iTunes does not support secure ripping, and has error correction disabled by default (what a stupid default setting!)
JRiver Media Center can use secure ripping, however it does not compare the final ripped results against the AccurateRip database.
I prefer to rip in dBpoweramp (which is a paid application) because it supports secure ripping and does a number of other checks to guarantee the file is a 100% copy. (EAC is free and can do the same, but it is a pain to set up)

So I would switch over to at least ripping in Media Center rather than iTunes in the future. You may or may not want to re-rip your discs. It shouldn't be necessary, but there may be pops & clicks if the disc wasn't read perfectly.
If you have a large library, and still have a copy of the discs, it's probably not worth the hassle of re-ripping everything again. If an album plays and does exhibit these problems, then you might want to re-rip it.


WAV is an uncompressed format and sounds identical to a Lossless format, the difference is that a Lossless format will compress the files about 50% on average. This saves you disk space, but keeps audio quality the same.
Unfortunately WAV has limited support for metadata (information like track name, number, album etc.) and iTunes does not support writing metadata into WAV files at all, and only keeps it inside its database.
Because of this, I would recommend converting from WAV to Apple Lossless before you import the files into Media Center because then iTunes will write all the metadata into the file itself so that Media Center can read it.
If you don't want to use Apple Lossless in future, Media Center can quickly convert the files to any other format you want, but you need to get them into a format that supports metadata before you import them, and that means Apple Lossless or AIFF in iTunes. AIFF is also an uncompressed format like WAV, but iTunes supports writing metadata with AIFF files.

To do this in iTunes, you need to set the import settings to Apple Lossless Encoder, which should then give you the "Create Apple Lossless Version" option on the right-click menu inside iTunes. Unfortunately iTunes creates duplicate files rather than replacing the files when converting formats.

Next what you want to do is create two smart playlists. Firstly, one that will only display uncompressed files:


And one that will display converted Apple Lossless files:


You may also want to create a "Lossy" playlist for any AAC/MP3 files with Kind is not WAV audio file, AIFF audio file, or Apple Lossless audio file, to display the other files in your library. (that you should not convert)


Now you can select all the uncompressed audio files in your library (hit Ctrl + A in the "Uncompressed" smart playlist) right click them, and convert them all to Apple lossless. Once this is done (it may take a while) you can then import these files into Media Center.
To import them into Media Center, it's as easy as selecting all files in the "Converted" smart playlist, and your "Lossy" smart playlist, and dragging them from the iTunes window into the Media Center window.
Once Media Center has imported them, you can then rename/move the files if you want or convert them to another format with ease. (though iTunes won't know where they are if you do that, and it only understands Apple Lossless)

After you have converted all your uncompressed files to Apple Lossless and imported them into Media Center, you probably want to delete the uncompressed WAV/AIFF files so that you don't have duplicates of everything.
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kstuart

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Re: Importing
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 08:21:07 pm »

mkelley wrote:" I can handle the answer  Smiley, just want to know what gives the ultimate best audiophile quality. "

Like everything else these days, the actual facts depend on who you ask. :)

WAVE files have the same data as all other lossless formats.

Some audiophiles (including some highly regarded professional CD mastering engineers) claim that the process of playing back compressed lossless files produces a slight sound quality deterioration, which was not present when playing back the uncompressed (WAVE) format of the same data.

The logical conclusion was that the uncompression process itself, can affect the playback PC in some tiny way.  A DAC manufacturer then did a blind test of audio convention attendees and the result of that test indicated that the sound quality deterioration was less if the playback PC was faster.

I personally have never bothered to test any of this for myself, and use FLAC and APE compressed lossless files, since I know that the guys reporting this can hear really really slight differences, that are not relevant to my personal needs.   However, I also see no need to disregard the reports of competent professionals.

JimH

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Re: Importing
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 07:12:18 am »

WAVE files have the same data as all other lossless formats.

Some audiophiles (including some highly regarded professional CD mastering engineers) claim that the process of playing back compressed lossless files produces a slight sound quality deterioration, which was not present when playing back the uncompressed (WAVE) format of the same data.
JRiver does not agree with this.  WAV or any lossless format will produce identical sound if played on the same equipment, using the same settings.
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glynor

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Re: Importing
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 09:51:14 am »

I completely agree with 6233638's comments and suggestions in every way, with one small exception.

JRiver Media Center can use secure ripping, however it does not compare the final ripped results against the AccurateRip database.
I prefer to rip in dBpoweramp (which is a paid application) because it supports secure ripping and does a number of other checks to guarantee the file is a 100% copy. (EAC is free and can do the same, but it is a pain to set up)

This is true.  However, I only wanted to point out that this has been discussed elsewhere and the reason that JRiver doesn't have support for the AccurateRip database is that it doesn't provide significant value over a "normal" secure rip.  It is a double-check, certainly, but if the rip quality is 100%, then you're really just verifying that your source was "correct", which is of dubious value.

If you're curious about this, you can search the forums as it has been discussed ad infinitum, but here's a pretty clear statement about it from JimH.

Not that there is anything wrong with wanting to use it, but it isn't "required" to verify the accuracy of a rip.

In any case, 6233638's suggestion is the way to go.  Convert to ALAC in iTunes, then import them into MC, and then you can use MC to put them in whatever final storage state you want.  I, too, would probably stick with ALAC because:

1. It is easy and doesn't require a second round of conversions.
2. It'll work with any Apple devices you might have or encounter, and because of that "standard" alone, it is more likely to be included by other hardware makers in the future.

For future ripping, use MC, and you can pick whatever format you'd like.  I rip to FLAC, personally.  But if I had to convert over in your situation, ALAC would be the way to go, no question.  You don't have to have everything in the same format either, so you're really not limited for future ripping.
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kstuart

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Re: Importing
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 12:03:45 pm »

" WAV or any lossless format will produce identical sound if played on the same equipment, using the same settings."

I used to have a 80286 PC - the ones with the optional huge 10mb hard drive.  I'm willing to bet that playing an uncompressed WAV file sounds different than playing a compressed FLAC file on that machine.

Mathematically, the concept of "sufficiently fast processor" does not occur at a perfectly fixed point, like 567mhz (with 566mhz being too slow).

MrC

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Re: Importing
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 12:18:23 pm »

Please stop pushing this.  You're spending an inordinate amount of time polluting threads by pushing your own agenda and beliefs that might having marginal value to the smallest fraction of users.

If your purpose is to help users with their concerns, you have to focus on their needs, not your own agenda.  In reading your many replies, you seem to  be more interested in reporting what you perceive as perfect truth.

Ask yourself - does your reply forward the action.
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kstuart

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Re: Importing
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 02:00:52 pm »

mkelley wrote:" I can handle the answer  Smiley, just want to know what gives the ultimate best audiophile quality. "

I wrote: "I personally have never bothered to test any of this for myself, and use FLAC and APE compressed lossless files, since I know that the guys reporting this can hear really really slight differences, that are not relevant to my personal needs.   However, I also see no need to disregard the reports of competent professionals."

I don't see how that fits your depiction.  Or are you referring to someone else ?

PS I have no beliefs.  For example, I try to discourage people from "upsampling" since it adds data not present in the actual recording...
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