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[Sandy B Ridge]

I'm curious to know how well ROHQ/MadVR performs with upscaling stuff to 4k and how this output is handled by GPU and HDMI.

Cheers

SBR

[RC23]

I don´t understand the necessity for 4k. The best solution is to go with a Full HDTV or a beamer with LCOS or SXRD technology with a significant better pixel fill rate and best black level. I think the eye has problems to see advantages above the actual video technology.

[InflatableMouse]

I don´t understand the necessity for 4k.

I do.

100" view screen at 10 feet . What can be more immersing?

[6233638]

The Carlton Bale charts are wrong too. They are based on the distance for someone with average vision to resolve a single pixel, the HD formats are designed around not being able to resolve individual pixels.
So double all the distances on that chart for the "ideal" distances.

I can't wait until high quality 4K displays are available. I use a 1080p TV as a monitor, and text looks rough up close.
4K brings that in-line with computer monitors, and 8K puts it on-par with retina displays.

The problem for me is that no-one is building high-end LCDs any more. They're all edge lit.
So I will have to wait until 4K OLED is here, and a few more years until it's here and affordable. And hopefully by then they will have sorted things out so that there's no motion blur, and they're using standard RGB subpixel structures.

[raym]

I understand also that 4k offers an improved color gamut over the current 1080p standard.

[hulkss]

100" view screen at 10 feet . What can be more immersing?

I have an upscaling JVC Projector. 115" wide screen (not diagonal) at 11 feet viewing distance.
Looks very nice.

[RC23]

I understand also that 4k offers an improved color gamut over the current 1080p standard.

The actual beamers deliver already a slight improved color gamut over HDTV (current 1080p standard). The HDTV norm is described by the black triangle. For best video results is a calibration necessary.

[RC23]

I have an upscaling JVC Projector. 115" wide screen (not diagonal) at 11 feet viewing distance.
Looks very nice.

Do you own a JVC DLA X55 or X70? A very good projector. Yesterday I have ordered a Mitsubishi HC5 with a nice price, which is identical in construction with a Mitsubishi HC9000.

I have seen so far a picture comparison of 4k vs 1080p by screenshots. The 4k results were subtle better. You have to go very near to the screen. But personal experiences with the result of upscaling to 4k are better than screenshots.

[6233638]

I have an upscaling JVC Projector. 115" wide screen (not diagonal) at 11 feet viewing distance.
Looks very nice.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/images/eshift2.gif

I'm far more excited for 4K DLP projectors than anything else. While the JVC projectors are very nice, I wish they would implement a dynamic iris, and I dislike the softness inherent to three-chip devices.

I wish projector manufacturers would move to LED/Laser light sources already. I really miss having a projector, but I don't really want to buy another one until 4K is mainstream and we are done with replacing lamps every year.

The actual beamers deliver already a slight improved color gamut over HDTV (current 1080p standard). The HDTV norm is desribed by the black triangle (see attachement). For best video results is a calibration necessary.

Offering a wider gamut than your source requires is not an improvement - it's actually detrimental to image quality because you're throwing away gradation to bring it into spec.

JVC's projectors are probably the only consumer ones that actually come close to the BT.2020 standard right now.

[RC23]

I wish projector manufacturers would move to LED/Laser light sources already.

I think you have to wait for three years until this will be mainstream on the market. The first prototypes are coming by Osram with its phaser projector. This technolgy is to be deliver a lifetime of 20,000 hours vs. up to 5,000 hours of actual technology. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Laserprojektion-Osram-holt-den-Phaser-raus-1883352.html

[RC23]

Here the comparison 4k vs. HD presented by a calibrated JVC X55 vs. JVC X35. Please fast-forward to 35:35 and 41:20  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p71zvkaU910

[bulldogger]

I'm curious to know how well ROHQ/MadVR performs with upscaling stuff to 4k and how this output is handled by GPU and HDMI.

Cheers

SBR

I don't believe any of the current graphics cards are capable of upscaling to 4K. They can output 4k but don't think they can upscale it.

[6233638]

I don't believe any of the current graphics cards are capable of upscaling to 4K. They can output 4k but don't think they can upscale it.

I don't see any reason why madVR would have trouble with this.

[bulldogger]

I don't see any reason why madVR would have trouble with this.

It's not madVR. The hardware can't currently do it. GPU can output 4k but my information is there none can handle upscaling to that resolution, only output. My source is very credible for this. I'd be surprised if it's incorrect. I'm sure madVR will be able to keep up with whatever resolutions when the hardware, GPU can handle it.

[6233638]

I'm not sure what you even mean by "not being able to handle" upscaling to that resolution?
It either supports that resolution or it doesn't. (and most support 4K output now)

[bulldogger]

I'm not sure what you even mean by "not being able to handle" upscaling to that resolution?
It either supports that resolution or it doesn't. (and most support 4K output now)

nearly all current GPU for example can output 1080p. You'll run into problems very quickly if you believe that just because the GPU can output 1080p  for example, it can run lower rosolutions  with madVR to that resolution. So what resolutions GPU can output tells you almost nothing about what if can upscale with madVR and run jin3.  The same is true with 4k. Outputting 4k native and upscaling 1080p or lower resolutions and running jin3  is not the same thing at all. Here's what was told by an expert,"- The new algorithm Jinc requires a lot of GPU processing power to upscale 480/720 to 1080. (Upscaling 1080 to 4K is out of question in the current GPUs."

[InflatableMouse]

You can choose another algorithm like bicubic and lanczos.

[bulldogger]

You can choose another algorithm like bicubic and lanczos.

That was not the question the thread starter asked. He asked if you can use madVR. That's what I would want to use as welll.

[6233638]

I see - what you meant is not that you can't use madVR to scale content to 4K, it's that a lot of graphics cards are not powerful enough to do it when using the more demanding algorithms.

Well that's to be expected. I'm quite sure the high end cards won't have any trouble with it. (or lower-end if you are willing to try something other than Jinc)

[InflatableMouse]

That was not the question the thread starter asked. He asked if you can use madVR. That's what I would want to use as welll.

You can use MadVR, you just can't use Jinc3 or higher algorithms.

[6233638]

You can use MadVR, you just can't use Jinc3 or higher algorithms.

It depends on the card, rather than simply not being able to use them. Fairly recently, madshi implemented some optimizations for 2x and 3x scaling, specifically for 4K displays. (2x 1080p and 3x 720p = 4K)

[bulldogger]

Current GPUs can't  support 4k at greater than I believe 30hz. The standard certainly is not going to be that.   I'm not sure when HDMI 2.0 or whatever the next version is, will be available. That's when I'll become interested in 4k.

[bulldogger]

http://www.cepro.com/article/sony_vplvw500es_4k_home_theater_projector_features_hdmi_20/   with HDMI 2.0 and 4K at 60Hz support. I guess GPU with 4K 60Hz support via HDMI 2.0 should be ready soon. There is no diplay port on this projector.

[6233638]

Current GPUs can't  support 4k at greater than I believe 30hz. The standard certainly is not going to be that.   I'm not sure when HDMI 2.0 or whatever the next version is, will be available. That's when I'll become interested in 4k.

DisplayPort can do it. I'm not sure about whether DisplayPort to HDMI adapters will work for HDMI 2.0 displays.
It's a shame that the computer industry is moving towards DisplayPort/Thunderbolt, while the television industry is sticking to HDMI. I have little experience with DisplayPort, but HDMI sucks as an interface.

[bulldogger]

DisplayPort can do it. I'm not sure about whether DisplayPort to HDMI adapters will work for HDMI 2.0 displays.
It's a shame that the computer industry is moving towards DisplayPort/Thunderbolt, while the television industry is sticking to HDMI. I have little experience with DisplayPort, but HDMI sucks as an interface.

I don't believe display port is going to be a viable option in the current generation. HDCP, content protection has also been changed for the 4K standard. You will need HDCP 2.2  with 4K protected material. All the displays and projectors will have HDCP 2.2 for Ultra HD material. So even though, Display Port can transmit 4K, the current generation will not have the correct HDCP 2.2.

[6233638]

I don't believe display port is going to be a viable option in the current generation. HDCP, content protection has also been changed for the 4K standard. You will need HDCP 2.2  with 4K protected material. All the displays and projectors will have HDCP 2.2 for Ultra HD material. So even though, Display Port can transmit 4K, the current generation will not have the correct HDCP 2.2.

Well films are only 24fps anyway, so they don't even require HDMI 2.0.
60Hz is only required for hooking up a computer to the display, and HDCP is generally not important there.

[Sandy B Ridge]

Well films are only 24fps anyway, so they don't even require HDMI 2.0.
60Hz is only required for hooking up a computer to the display, and HDCP is generally not important there.

HDCP is only relevant for consumer hardware and 'official' software like TMT and PowerDVD. MC, LAV filters and MadVR couldn't care less about HDCP. (thanks to madshi and hendryck for making this possible).

Upscaling SD 50/60Hz stuff to 4k 50/60Hz would be the ultimate goal! Would the Nvidia Titan have the necessary grunt I wonder? I'm sure we'll see a DisplayPort to HDMI 2 converter capable of 60hz 4k soon.

SBR   

[Sandy B Ridge]

http://www.cepro.com/article/sony_vplvw500es_4k_home_theater_projector_features_hdmi_20/   with HDMI 2.0 and 4K at 60Hz support. I guess GPU with 4K 60Hz support via HDMI 2.0 should be ready soon. There is no diplay port on this projector.

I assume the 4:2:0 limitation at 4k 60Hz is a bandwidth limitation for HDMI.

Although I assume that 4:2:0 at 2160p should be better than 4:4:4 at 1080p?

SBR

[bulldogger]

Well films are only 24fps anyway, so they don't even require HDMI 2.0.
60Hz is only required for hooking up a computer to the display, and HDCP is generally not important there.

Does not matter,  if it's 24fps or not. 4K material, most of which will be at 24fps is going to require HDCP 2.2 to get a picture. Older GPU are not going to work for 4K into the new displays with current version Display Port. The 60Hz is irrelevant really if you can not even get a picture to show at any frame rate for 4K material. Because HDCP has been "cracked" the new sets require HDCP 2.2 to display any 4K material. It's backwards compatible with HDMI 1.4 so you will still be able to display lower resolution material.

[bulldogger]

HDCP is only relevant for consumer hardware and 'official' software like TMT and PowerDVD. MC, LAV filters and MadVR couldn't care less about HDCP. (thanks to madshi and hendryck for making this possible).

Upscaling SD 50/60Hz stuff to 4k 50/60Hz would be the ultimate goal! Would the Nvidia Titan have the necessary grunt I wonder? I'm sure we'll see a DisplayPort to HDMI 2 converter capable of 60hz 4k soon.

SBR   

  How are you going to make the display show a picture if IT requires HDCP 2.2 to show a picture.The current version of DisplayPort appears to be unable to transmit 4K into the new displays not because it is incapable but because the display will require HDCP 2.2. An adapter will be useless in this case.

[bulldogger]

I assume the 4:2:0 limitation at 4k 60Hz is a bandwidth limitation for HDMI.

Although I assume that 4:2:0 at 2160p should be better than 4:4:4 at 1080p?

SBR

I do not know. 32 channels of audio with HDMI 2.0 should be interesting. I think it's going to make external room correction processors viable. Companies like Trinnov are limited by the current ability of HDMI 1.4 to only transmit 8 channels. More than 8 channels are needed to address correction for multiple subwoofers.

[6233638]

I assume the 4:2:0 limitation at 4k 60Hz is a bandwidth limitation for HDMI.
Although I assume that 4:2:0 at 2160p should be better than 4:4:4 at 1080p?

I've been trying to find a copy of the HDMI 2.0 spec but I don't think there is anything available on the web yet.

As I understand it, 4:2:0 is optional with HDMI 2.0 - I certainly hope it is, because things like 32 channels of audio up to 1536kHz seem like a complete waste of bandwidth.
The reason that 4:2:0 is being added, is because it saves bandwidth, and it lets you use cheap players as source devices. Prior to HDMI 2.0, the minimum chroma resolution you could transmit was 4:2:2, which means that playback devices are required to do a minimum of 4:2:0 > 4:2:2 upsampling.

Part of the reason that madVR's chroma upscaling is so good, is because it has access to the unaltered 4:2:0 data. With HDMI 2.0, you now have the option of using cheap players that just pass on the data unaltered to the display or an external video processor.

Does not matter,  if it's 24fps or not. 4K material, most of which will be at 24fps is going to require HDCP 2.2 to get a picture. Older GPU are not going to work for 4K into the new displays with current version Display Port. The 60Hz is irrelevant really if you can not even get a picture to show at any frame rate for 4K material. Because HDCP has been "cracked" the new sets require HDCP 2.2 to display any 4K material. It's backwards compatible with HDMI 1.4 so you will still be able to display lower resolution material.

There's no reason that DisplayPort cannot be updated to support HDCP 2.2 as well. But HDCP doesn't seem like a big problem. I already use Media Center for all my video playback, so I don't have to worry about HDCP at all.
HDCP only matters for players like PowerDVD and stand-alone hardware.

[bulldogger]

HDCP only matters for players like PowerDVD and stand-alone hardware.

It matters for your GPU. It matters if you want to transmit 4K into a HDCP 2.2 complaint device. So far because your current GPU is HDCP compliant, you can send any resolution you like with any player that you like and not have to worry. DisplayPort can be updated but that always requires new hardward. Hardware that you don't have in the current GPU.

Has HDCP 2.2 already been broken? If it has not, then there is no way for you to strip it  from the 4k UltraHD video. That means you need a new GPU to transmit it that is HDCP 2.2 complaint. I wasn't aware that it had been broken??? If/when it is broken perhaps you can do as you say. Right now, no way. The players you describe all use some type of software like AnyDVD to strip HDCP. That's not going to work with HDCP 2.2.

[Sandy B Ridge]

I can't believe that HDCP is mandatory for a 4k display. For a 4k content hardware player, then perhaps.

HDCP has always been an optional layer in the transmission.

Sony might choose to implement HDCP for its own displays because it owns the movies. If that is the case, then just need an alternative manufacturer!

SBR

[bulldogger]

HDCP has always been an optional layer in the transmission.

Yes. But when it is mandatory, and you want to watch a movie with a program like JRiver, you strip the HDCP out with AnyDvd or some other type of program. However HDCP 2.2 is new and to my knowledge has not been broken. Nearly all Blu-rays have HDCP. The newer UltraHD will have HDCP 2.2 and currently there is no way for you to strip it off with software. That means currently the only way for you to watch the new UltraHD movies when released will be with an HDCP 2.2 complaint device. All companies will use this encryption, it's not just Sony. HDCP 2.2 is a direct response to the hacking of HDMI 1.4. That's the sole reason it was created because the previous versions have been hacked.

[6233638]

It matters for your GPU. It matters if you want to transmit 4K into a HDCP 2.2 complaint device. So far because your current GPU is HDCP compliant, you can send any resolution you like with any player that you like and not have to worry. DisplayPort can be updated but that always requires new hardward. Hardware that you don't have in the current GPU.

4K resolutions do not require HDCP 2.2 - only protected content requires HDCP 2.2 support.
You can hook up a computer to any of the current 4K displays via HDMI 1.4 and display 4K at 30Hz, or 60Hz using DisplayPort/HDMI 2.0

The players you describe all use some type of software like AnyDVD to strip HDCP. That's not going to work with HDCP 2.2.

As I understood it, programs like AnyDVD remove AACS protection from the discs, which allows them to be played in any media player.
Players like PowerDVD are required to enable HDCP when playing back AACS protected content - the content itself is not HDCP encrypted.

[bulldogger]

4K resolutions do not require HDCP 2.2 - only protected content requires HDCP 2.2 support.
You can hook up a computer to any of the current 4K displays via HDMI 1.4 and display 4K at 30Hz, or 60Hz using DisplayPort/HDMI 2.0
As I understood it, programs like AnyDVD remove AACS protection from the discs, which allows them to be played in any media player.
Players like PowerDVD are required to enable HDCP when playing back AACS protected content - the content itself is not HDCP encrypted.

  The material that one is going to want to watch is going to be the protected content. No currently released 4K projectors have display port. No current Display Port to HDMI adapters are capable of transmitting 4K because they were designed with the HDMI 1.4a spec. My suggestion is to just buy new GPU instead of waiting or hoping for projectors to have Display Port. Display port has very limited penetration in home theater. HDMI 2.0 will be present 100% of the time with new 4K projectors. Display Port will not be and again currently is not present on any.

[6233638]

The material that one is going to want to watch is going to be the protected content.

Blu-ray is currently protected content, and there are plenty of ways around that.
Using PCs for playback, AACS is removed, which bypasses HDCP altogether, because you're effectively playing "unprotected" content.

We won't know until there is actually a 4K format being produced, but there's a high likelihood that HDCP will not be an issue for PC-based playback.

No currently released 4K projectors have display port.

There are 4K displays which have DisplayPort, though you may be right about there being no projectors with it. But HDMI 1.4a is sufficient for 4K at 24Hz and 30Hz, which is all anyone needs for film/tv content. 60Hz is really only necessary for PC use.

No current Display Port to HDMI adapters are capable of transmitting 4K because they were designed with the HDMI 1.4a spec.

HDMI 1.4a supports 4K at 24Hz and 30Hz. HDMI 2.0 adds support for 60Hz—which DisplayPort can already do.

My suggestion is to just buy new GPU instead of waiting or hoping for projectors to have Display Port. Display port has very limited penetration in home theater. HDMI 2.0 will be present 100% of the time with new 4K projectors. Display Port will not be and again currently is not present on any.

I don't expect them to move to using DisplayPort now, but anything with DisplayPort 1.2 will be able to output 4K60 via an HDMI 2.0 adapter.

[bulldogger]

I don't expect them to move to using DisplayPort now, but anything with DisplayPort 1.2 will be able to output 4K60 via an HDMI 2.0 adapter.

I guess. Adapters have given me a lot of problems. I try to avoid them when possible. With the new AMD GPU, it's one hassle with which I will not have to bother. Again,no current HDMI adapters will transmit 4k. Perhaps it's my perception but adapters always seem to lag in development and usually are a kludge. I suspect the AMD GPU will be released much sooner than the adapters. DisplayPort will likely be included on higher priced models at some point, but again you'll be waiting. Connections that are not in wide use, raise the price but do not add much value to lower priced consumer electronics where HDMI dominates. DisplayPort's main value was that it could do things that HDMI could not. I don't see any value for myself personally now that HDMI can transmit everything that it can and perhaps more with audio and it's 32 channels capability.

[6233638]

Looks like Panasonic are including DisplayPort 1.2a on their new 4K displays: http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/img/avw/docs/617/533/html/pana09.jpg.html