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Author Topic: Replay Gain issue  (Read 1404 times)

dean70

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Replay Gain issue
« on: June 29, 2013, 09:11:34 pm »

Ran Analyze Audio over all tracks and enabled Album based Volume Leveling, which works fine in most cases, but on some albums that already have very high levels (eg: loudness war), it pushes the level even higher (usually 0.1 to 0.5db) in these cases as shown on the Volume Leveling tab. How is it calculating a positive value when it should be -ve db in these cases?

 Running v.206
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dean70

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Re: Replay Gain issue
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 03:23:00 am »

Fixed issue by applying a fixed +6db instead of automatic based on playlist.
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Arindelle

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Re: Replay Gain issue
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 05:44:57 am »

Fixed issue by applying a fixed +6db instead of automatic based on playlist.

Yep, automatic based on play list never worked for me, either.

You might want to try +10db fixed (a lot I know). JRiver I believe is using 83db standard, not 89db for replay gain ... also I choose track based rather than album based. This seems to have less artificially boosted DSP for "dynamic recordings" ( :-X read b4 loudness war/or with producers keeping their ppp's and FFF's alive).

I use this when I'm running a playlist of mixed songs (eg. Jazz/Blues shuffled with Pop/Rock) or if I know there are going to be a lot of pre-1995 stuff with newer recordings.

I never use the album based option  -- really not good for the music imho, to lop off 6-10db. Frankly I don't know why this even exists as an option, for audiophiles or not. Sort of a temporary "normalisation" isn't it?

I suppose, I could see choosing a bunch of albums if you are runing this in a bar or workplace and can't be botherer every 40 minutes with the volume ... but if its not a mix of songs where convience beats sound qality, really not worth not having a difference between quiet songs and loud ones on the same album ... again imo of course, but ... what did that famous engineer say ? You want loud, you gotta have quiet - you control the volume "knob" or something to that effect.
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6233638

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Re: Replay Gain issue
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 07:23:36 pm »

"Automatic based on current playlist" uses the ReplayGain data to bring all tracks to a normalized level, and then plays the current playlist as loud as possible without clipping.
This means you will have to adjust the volume control when you start playback (because it varies depending on what is playing) but after that, you should not have to touch it for the rest of the current playlist.


If you are using album-based ReplayGain without any adjustment, then all tracks will be normalized to 83dB. I'm not sure on the specifics as to why 83dB was chosen for Media Center, as the ReplayGain specification is 89dB.
If you want that, you will have to use a +6dB fixed adjustment. I would not set it any higher than that, as you then run the risk of clipping or activating Media Center's clipping protection.

While it might sound quiet compared to playing tracks without ReplayGain, the whole point of operating in this mode is that 83dB gives you 20dB of headroom (I don't understand how -20dBFS = 83dB though?) so that you aren't likely to run into clipping when normalizing the audio levels.
Once you adjust the volume control on your amplifier to a comfortable listening level, you should ideally never have to touch it again, because all tracks are being normalized to the same level rather than it varying based on what is in the current playlist.


In practice, it's not quite perfect, and I do still have to adjust my volume control up and down a little, but far less than I would without using ReplayGain.
Normalizing this way also defeats the "loudness war" because all tracks are now being played at the same level, so what you hear is the difference in dynamic range, rather than the difference in loudness.

And looking to the future, I hope that Media Center will implement EBU R128 normalization which supersedes ReplayGain, and performs a more complex analysis of the audio to improve normalization results.
R128 normalizes at 80dB, leaving 23dB of headroom, so it will actually be equivalent to ReplayGain with a fixed adjustment of -3.0 dB.


If you are outputting a 24-bit signal from Media Center, you shouldn't really be concerned about this affecting playback quality at all, as 24-bit allows you to reduce the volume by up to 48dB with a 16-bit source. (which most music is)
And even if you have a 24-bit source, you were never going to hear anything down below -121dB anyway.

Track-based ReplayGain is useful for when you are using the Play Doctor, or more random/shuffled playlists, as it will normalize each track to the same level, rather than normalizing whole albums to a single level and preserving the track-to-track dynamics. Some tracks are supposed to be louder or quieter on the album than others for example, and track-based normalization eliminates this.
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dean70

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Re: Replay Gain issue
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 08:59:30 pm »

I have found with +6db fixed gain gives 0db +/-3db in Voxengo SPAN for every track whether it is from DSD source or CD that are mastered "hot". I guess 0db on the scale corresponds to 89db. 83db (or 80db for R128) is fine for dynamic movie content, but too low for music IMO. With the sound card max 2v out, it can drive the power amps to 103db with 10db to spare to avoid clipping the analog stages.

edit: The 103db level is the reference level for movies (corresponds to 0db on MC volume after calibration).
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