Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[DaveSR1]

I explained this to JimH by email and he said there is no known bug in the shuffle mode. He asked me if I posted anything about this in the forum, so here goes.

My problem is with the way the shuffle mode and linear modes and switching between them work. You have a button to change the shuffle mode from off to on or vice versa, but it requires multiple clicks first of all. Most players have a toggle button.

I use the player in full screen mode, and I have my playlists in path order as my tracks are all albums ripped as full 44.1 wav files, (and 192/24 FLAC files), and are stored in my C:\Music folder in artist, album, track number order.

For example C:\Music\Eagles\HotelCalifornia\01 - Hotel California.wav followed by C:\Music\Eagles\HotelCalifornia\02 - New Kid In Town.wav and so on.

I generally listen to my system in shuffle mode, with "Now Playing" view displayed so it auto scrolls to the current file, and highlights it, but the list must remain in that artist\album order so I can easily scroll to another album and click on another song, and toggle to linear mode to listen to that whole album in order if I feel like it.

This is NOT possible with jriver without many clicks to fix the order and simply change to linear order.

If I select "Shuffle OFF" (it should just toggle it with one click), it does NOTHING. The shuffle order persists. So I have to go to a menu and click on something to reorder (Now Playing menu).

After I would have listened to that whole album and wanted to return to shuffle mode, when I selected "Shuffle ON", it shuffles the list. It also automatically adds another column called "Seq", with the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. I don't need or want that, who does! I want the order to persist as artist\album\track # order. You only need that seq column internally, and the order of the now playing list does not need to be altered. How can I find anything if the list is scrambled? After such a shuffling of my list, I have to resort the list so I could find an album if I wanted to.

It is just the wrong way to do things, so I have uninstalled jriver.

Am I the only one who uses it this way? If you actually admit that this needs to be fixed and you fix it, I may reconsider purchase, and I would let the others in my audiophile group know also.

[Matt]

Welcome.

There are two main ways to do a shuffle mode:

1) Keep tracks in order and move the play head randomly

2) Shuffle the tracks as they're added

I believe you want #1, but JRiver uses #2.

The advantage to #2 is that it allows the ordering of a shuffled playlist to be fine-tuned by a user, DJ, etc.  It also always shows the user what tracks will play in what order in Playing Now (so it's random, but not a mystery if you want to know or customize).  However, #2 is not reversible.

[DaveSR1]

Welcome.

There are two main ways to do a shuffle mode:

1) Keep tracks in order and move the play head randomly

2) Shuffle the tracks as they're added

I believe you want #1, but JRiver uses #2.

The advantage to #2 is that it allows the ordering of a shuffled playlist to be fine-tuned by a user, DJ, etc.  It also always shows the user what tracks will play in what order in Playing Now (so it's random, but not a mystery if you want to know or customize).  However, #2 is not reversible.

No, it is POSSIBLE to reorder the list so it plays them randomly even though they are in alphabetic order by path, but it is about switching from one to the other. If I am in shuffle and reordered the list it will jump around and highlight the playing song, which is what I want but say a particular song comes up and I want to switch shuffle off and listen to the whole album, NOTHING changes when I click on the shuffle button and serlect "Shuffle OFF". NOTHING. It continues to play in the shuffle order, until I go to "Playing Now" and click "Update Order", Too many clicks just to toggle the shuffle mode on and off. I don't need or want the order to be rearranged each time.
 

[Matt]

No, it is POSSIBLE to reorder the list so it plays them randomly even though they are in alphabetic order by path

Playing Now always plays in Seq # order.  If you sort the list by something else, it doesn't change the play order unless you manually use 'Update Order'.

NOTHING changes when I click on the shuffle button and serlect "Shuffle OFF". NOTHING.

As I said above, since we use method #2, it means shuffle is not reversible.

[DaveSR1]

Playing Now always plays in Seq # order.  If you sort the list by something else, it doesn't change the play order unless you manually use 'Update Order'.


As I said above, since we use method #2, it means shuffle is not reversible.

No other player works like that. Too many clicks required. That's why I uninstalled and did not purchase. Too inconvenient to use. Thanks for your response though.

[mojave]

I recently helped someone that had switched to JRiver from Winamp. Winamp works the way you describe with shuffle/unshuffle.

Because it is a database, JRiver always has info about all of your files but allows you to view or play in a variety of different ways. These ways are Library View, Playlist, Smartlist, Play Doctor, Radio Buttons, and Search.

Playing Now is where a playlist, song, album or all the works of an artist are added to be played. You can start one song, browse for another, and then add it to Playing Now. Once a playlist is added, it is no longer considered a static playlist, but part of playing now. For this reason, once playing now is shuffled, it can't be unshuffled because it no longer knows if your music listed was added was added from a playlist, view, smartlist, or any combination of these. I might add a playlist to Playing Now and then manually add 5 more songs, shuffle all songs, and then manually add 7 more songs and 1 more album and shuffle the remaining songs. How will it now know to put my original playlist back in the same order? What will it do with the manually added songs?

You can right click any song in Playing Now, click Locate, and then jump to the the same Artist, Album, or Genre.

 

[DaveSR1]

I recently helped someone that had switched to JRiver from Winamp. Winamp works the way you describe with shuffle/unshuffle.

Playing Now is where a playlist, song, album or all the works of an artist are added to be played. You can start one song, browse for another, and then add it to Playing Now. Once a playlist is added, it is no longer considered a static playlist, but part of playing now. For this reason, once playing now is shuffled, it can't be unshuffled because it no longer knows if your music listed was added was added from a playlist, view, smartlist, or any combination of these. I might add a playlist to Playing Now and then manually add 5 more songs, shuffle all songs, and then manually add 7 more songs and 1 more album and shuffle the remaining songs. How will it now know to put my original playlist back in the same order? What will it do with the manually added songs?

You can right click any song in Playing Now, click Locate, and then jump to the the same Artist, Album, or Genre.

Perhaps you should re-read my original post. I have thousands of full 44.1KHz WAV files. The only way I can find an artist and a particular album is because I keep them in Artist\Album\Track # order! Doesn't anyone use high end playback equipment? You are talking about people who use (ugh) mp3 files that contain that info. I am in the process of getting a collection of 192KHz/24 bit FLAC files, 11 albums so far, which do seem to have album and artist info, but the majority of my files are 44.1/16 WAV files ripped directly from my CDs

[DaveSR1]

The thing is, it is trivially easy to make it work properly both ways. You have your Seq column which I choose to not display, but it can exist and needs to, anyway of course. So when you click shuffle ON, it simply shuffles the Seq column hidden or not, and plays in that order while maintaining the USER's selected sort order. If the user decides he wants it in Seq order that's fine, but if he wants it in alphabetical order by the full path so it is in Artist\Album\Track# order, it should stay that way, but it can still work from the Seq anyway, even when hidden by the user's preference. I have a hard time believing that you don't respect the user's preferences. Seq checked off means NO to that column. Why do you insist on putting it back? If I don't want it, keep it hidden. Leave the order as it has been set by the user. Simple and everyone is happy.

[Matt]

You can use Library Tools > Fill Properties From Filenames to parse your Artist\Album\Track# directory structure into proper library fields.

In the future, you might consider tagging your WAV files.  JRiver (and other good players) support this.

[mojave]

Perhaps you should re-read my original post. I have thousands of full 44.1KHz WAV files. The only way I can find an artist and a particular album is because I keep them in Artist\Album\Track # order! Doesn't anyone use high end playback equipment? You are talking about people who use (ugh) mp3 files that contain that info. I am in the process of getting a collection of 192KHz/24 bit FLAC files, 11 albums so far, which do seem to have album and artist info, but the majority of my files are 44.1/16 WAV files ripped directly from my CDs

The majority of JRiver users I have seen post here use lossless audio files. JRiver supports WAV tagging so you can find your albums or artists no matter what order they are stored on a disc. This is what makes it so flexible and powerful.

The thing is, it is trivially easy to make it work properly both ways. You have your Seq column which I choose to not display, but it can exist and needs to, anyway of course. So when you click shuffle ON, it simply shuffles the Seq column hidden or not, and plays in that order while maintaining the USER's selected sort order. If the user decides he wants it in Seq order that's fine, but if he wants it in alphabetical order by the full path so it is in Artist\Album\Track# order, it should stay that way, but it can still work from the Seq anyway, even when hidden by the user's preference. I have a hard time believing that you don't respect the user's preferences. Seq checked off means NO to that column. Why do you insist on putting it back? If I don't want it, keep it hidden. Leave the order as it has been set by the user. Simple and everyone is happy.

Because JRiver is a dynamic program instead of static, it takes a different mindset to use. However, once you learn how to use it the possibilities open up to you and you can do far more than with a static program. The static programs are like having ice cubes in ice cube trays in the freezer. You have to open the freezer and know where the trays are to get ice. JRiver is like having an automatic ice cube maker. You can get either cubes or crushed ice from the dispenser on the door and don't even have to open the freezer. Less work, more possibilities, and you always have ice. 

[Matt]

Doesn't anyone use high end playback equipment?

mojave is one of the brightest minds in high-end / digital media.  His playback equipment is ridiculous.

I try to listen when he talks, although about half of it goes over my head

[DaveSR1]

mojave is one of the brightest minds in high-end / digital media.  His playback equipment is ridiculous.

I try to listen when he talks, although about half of it goes over my head

How high end the system is, is not as much the point which you are missing. I have a 4 way electronic crossover with zero phase error between all drivers, (Lipwitz-Riley concept, but scratch designed and built by myself, 10+ years in development). Scanspeak Revelator series drivers for the top 3, including an 8.5 inch upper bass, (100  to 500), and custom reconed Goodmans 18" subwoofers on each side all voice coil aligned. Flat within 0.25 dB 10 Hz to 30 kHz, but it is about switching to alphabetic \artist\album order from shuffle and back again with one click. I don't want to jump through all those hoops just to do that.

[6233638]

I understand the thinking behind this system, but it doesn't make sense to me.
I have to imagine that you must have a very small library for that system to work - mine is a fraction of the size of many people's here, and I can't fathom scrolling through the entire library A-Z like that.

I can't think of any way to do this with a single click, but I would suggest using either split views or tabs for the task.


As for the shuffle controls in the player, I do think you raise a good point.
Most players will cycle through their shuffle/repeat options when clicking on them, which is much better from a usability point of view, rather than bringing up a menu.
It seems like a good change to make in a future version of Media Center would be to have left click cycle through the various states, with right-click and/or holding the left mouse button on them bring up the menu.

[MrC]

Matt - would you be able / willing to add a mode to a view, that when set, would auto-scroll the currently playing track to the middle of the view?

This would allow creating a user customizable view which shows files when IsInNowPlaying() is true, grouped the way a user wants, and it would auto-scroll showing the currently now playing track.  From the view, the remainder of the album could be Added to play next, allowing users to insert from the current album (or arbitrary grouping).

Somehow I think this will still be too much trouble for some, but it would be useful.

[Matt]

Matt - would you be able / willing to add a mode to a view, that when set, would auto-scroll the currently playing track to the middle of the view?

This would allow creating a user customizable view which shows files when IsInNowPlaying() is true, grouped the way a user wants, and it would auto-scroll showing the currently now playing track.  From the view, the remainder of the album could be Added to play next, allowing users to insert from the current album (or arbitrary grouping).

Somehow I think this will still be too much trouble for some, but it would be useful.

It's an interesting idea.  Playing Now does this already, so it's not a big stretch.

I've also wondered if we should offer both shuffle modes (#1 and #2 above), but I'm not convinced adding more complexity to the engine is better than simply picking the one we think is best and having uses learn it (which is basically what we do now with #2).

[MrC]

If implemented, I'll start using Split View permanently, with the first view a narrow Playing Now, and the second being the special Playing Now and other tabs.  What kind of bribe will be necessary (tolerated?).  :-)

[locust]

If implemented, I'll start using Split View permanently, with the first view a narrow Playing Now, and the second being the special Playing Now and other tabs.  What kind of bribe will be necessary (tolerated?).  :-)

+1 for me

I'm going to veer off topic a little, sorry, but it has to do with split views & this topic seems appropriate

I personally wish split views were a permanent feature, I mean a non changeable playing now split. Still with the possibility of adding a third split if you so wish. I don't currently use them right now, but I would if there were a better way to access it.. Right now you either have to click the on the tabs circled in the image and drag or click, the main problem here for me and the reason I don't use them is that it's difficult showing someone else how to use the split, a little tiny click space to get it down, is quite difficult at the best of times, would be an impossibility if I had a drink in me..

I always forget it's there if I haven't used it in a while.. Ideally there would be a big bold playing now button under the search bar that toggled the secondary split in this case locked at playing now, with three or four toggle clicks 1st click, 25% height or width, 2nd, 50%, 3rd, 100% and fourth to make it hidden again.. With a button to do this, it's a little harder

[DaveSR1]

I understand the thinking behind this system, but it doesn't make sense to me.
I have to imagine that you must have a very small library for that system to work - mine is a fraction of the size of many people's here, and I can't fathom scrolling through the entire library A-Z like that.

It seems like a good change to make in a future version of Media Center would be to have left click cycle through the various states, with right-click and/or holding the left mouse button on them bring up the menu.

Using the scrollbar tab the whole library (mine is at about 7000 tracks so far), can be scrolled to any track in about a second, easy. This is the best way to find something. Typing a name into a search box is FAR slower no matter how big the library. The modification I suggest is an easy one and you don't have to abandon anything. The USER's preference of sort order just needs to be respected. That's all. If I uncheck the "Seq" column it should stay that way (hidden) and just shuffle the hidden Seq leaving the sort order as the user prefers. If the user prefers to have the Seq column as ther sort order, (as is forced now if shuffle is set ON), then that's fine too, but it should be the user's choice. Switching OFF shuffle, should automatically rest the Seq column whether it is hidden or not.

[MrC]

I think you're being a little pushy on this.

Each of us has our own way of working.  I challenge that you can find a track or album within 1 second scrolling a large list (esp. with MC's list gliding behavior).  And I further challenge that using Search to quickly narrow is FAR slower (do you know about keyword shortcuts, search abbreviations, or how to rapidly search and filter, I wonder?).

Regardless, I think JRiver has heard your view.  It is one that has been expressed before, so I'm sure they've mentally added your vote to the list.

Just my thoughts.

[DaveSR1]

I think you're being a little pushy on this.

Each of us has our own way of working.  I challenge that you can find a track or album within 1 second scrolling a large list (esp. with MC's list gliding behavior).  And I further challenge that using Search to quickly narrow is FAR slower (do you know about keyword shortcuts, search abbreviations, or how to rapidly search and filter, I wonder?).

Regardless, I think JRiver has heard your view.  It is one that has been expressed before, so I'm sure they've mentally added your vote to the list.

Just my thoughts.

Then I am done with it. JRiver MC has been uninstalled, no purchase will be considered now. I am using Media Monkey now. It doesn't have a ridiculous issue like this! It is a simple fix, and that's how I use it.  If you don't want to fix it, that's your loss., Do what you want. My audiophile group will also not purchase. You just shot yourself in the foot. I am sure your sales would increase a lot if you fixed this "bug" and it is a bug. Bad programming imo.

[6233638]

Being aggressive towards people is usually not going to have them respond positively to requests. Neither is throwing a tantrum.

Media Center having a different workflow than another player is not a bug.
And while Media Center is very flexible, it seems that this behavior is not something it can currently do.

Your workflow is far from the norm, and even if Matt had said "Yep, I'll get right on it" I don't think it's reasonable to have expected this change to have been made in less than 24 hours.

[mojave]

If you don't want to fix it, that's your loss., Do what you want.

MrC is an extremely helpful forum member and isn't involved in the development of the program. He earlier offered suggestions to the developers to help with your issue.

[DaveSR1]

It is a simple modification, and you should observe and respect the user's preferences. I made the post because Jim suggested it. I did not expect to be insulted. I am a software engineer myself, and I can tell you it is simple to make it respect the user's list order, and still allow it to work the other way. I did this more for you and the rest of the people who might want this, than for myself. I have moved on, but I keep gettiung emails asking me why I haven't purchased, which I have explained many times over now. So either fix it or leave me alone. 

[adiebear]

So.. after all that...
Have there been any changes. I have over 3Tb >100 000 audio only files and,as a newbie, I am having difficulty. I do not want shuffle on most of the time.
If it is on and there is an album I want to play (in order) I have to wade through this thread to work out how to do that?- unless I have missed something clear and obvious.

Oh- and it seems I need to convert any m4a files. Correct?
No, I haven't read all the instructions and threads . I'm not a complete idiot, but I feel that unless I turn into a geek I'll never get the hang of JRiver.
I do not want to be assimilated.