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Author Topic: Additional sources for light reading  (Read 1409 times)

tullio

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Additional sources for light reading
« on: March 14, 2002, 10:40:54 am »

JimH

I missed the deadline for adding these sources to the thread.  Retired and not at a computer all day, I'm not always the most attentive reader.  I won't be offended if you don't post it.  But since you started this thread, you might be interested in looking at these sources.

For those not familiar with The Club of Rome, here is their mission statement:

"The Club of Rome’s mission is to act as a global catalyst of change that is free of any political, ideological or business interest.

The Club of Rome contributes to the solution of what it calls the world problematique, the complex set of the most crucial problems – political, social, economic, technological, environmental, psychological and cultural - facing humanity.

It does so taking a global, long term and interdisciplinary perspective aware of the increasing interdependence of nations and the globalisation of problems that pose predicaments beyond the capacity of individual countries."

One of their early reports, published in 1972 (I think) was called "The Limits to Growth" and dealt with the global problem of exponential growth, placing heavy emphasis on the question of population.  They developed sevaral computer models, controlled variables, and came up with some interesting results.  The report was widely read and generated a lot of discussion.  Although the models were flawed,it remains a good read and very thought provoking.

Their web site is  http://www.clubofrome.org/

A related site is The Limits to Growth, http://www.limitstogrowth.org/

Scronch, the major (but not only) problem with the unlimited, cheap energy solution, is that it would almost certainly propel the world toward a US level of consumption, which, despite the limits of market forces, would put a disastrous strain on global resources.  Or so their model shows.  I'm giving a gross oversimplification of a very complex issue, but considering what would happen if the rest of the world even began to approach US levels of consumption, is sobering
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Scronch

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2002, 12:01:39 pm »

What global resources?  You have to re-think everything to use energy first and expendable resources second.  Full recycling models (of water, gases, etc) can be put into practice because effiency is not relevant.  I doubt the report you reference considers the case of free, clean energy.

Your great great grandchildren will see that I'm right.
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JThomas

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2002, 01:53:00 pm »

Now this “free, clean energy” thing got me thinking, and living on the North Coast of the US, I thought of wind.  A little research and I found this about someone in my area that after a battle made a start in the correct direction.  They had a hard time doing it, but I think work in this direction needs to be started in our lifetime. http://www.windzone.mkeis.org/court.htm

Someone has wisely said that if "You sow a thought, you will reap an act. If you sow that act, you will reap your character. And if you sow your character, you'll reap your destiny."

Food For Thought….

Habitat II, a United Nations conference designed to focus on the housing needs for the world community and the sustainable development of human settlements, is now history. Attended by delegates from 185 different countries, the "Habitat Agenda" was discussed for almost two full weeks. Much of the "Habitat Agenda" was centered around the supposed crisis of our time: dwindling resources in an era when the population is increasing.

This "population explosion" idea has been around for some time. We have grown familiar with being told that unless the world controls it’s population, we won’t have enough food, water, medicine or employment in the future.
According to these experts who say they are in the know, the only solution is to limit the numbers of babies being born. The perpetuation of human life must be controlled, they say. Abortion, the so-called solution, has been described as an evolutionary imperative if we are going to survive.

However, in spite of all the propaganda we have been hearing, the Earth is not running out of room. All the world’s buildings could easily fit into a nation such as Ireland or Scotland, leaving the rest of the world vacant. As well, the actual ground given over to human use comprises only 11% of the land area of the Earth. The world has a population density of about 30 people per square mile. And third, in all developed countries the fertility rate has been well below replacement level for almost twenty years.

As Nancy Shaefer, an observer at the Habitat II conference wrote: "People are not the problem. Cities are not a threat! Nevertheless, the planners are telling us that we must be willing to sacrifice our basic liberties in order to allow the UN to "rescue" us from the "ravages of population explosion." So the crisis has now been defined and so has the solution in the form of "sustainable development," created by the very people who defined the crisis in the first place.

The communist government of China leads the way in following the population specialists. The "one child" per family along with the cultural preference for the male child, has led to the death of millions of girls before and after birth. According to the Handbook on Population 500,000 sex selection abortions, take place in China every year. A calculation involving the natural mortality rates of children shows that an additional 100,000 girls are the victims of infanticide during the ages of birth and four years.

Next time you hear about the need for population control remember these statistics. It seems all this nonsense about "sustainable growth" is nothing more than satanic propaganda. Are people so blind that they can not figure this out? The Bible states that a baby in the womb is a child of God. In the past when humans became this wicked, God wiped them out. And it is going to happen again. So much for the idea of "sustainable resources" when God’s wrath is poured out.  (Author: Roger Oakland)

And a few more quotes:

Jim Morrison: Whoever controls the media controls the mind.

Albert Camus: We used to wonder where war lived, what it was that made it so vile. And now we realize that we know where it lives, that it is inside ourselves.
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zevele1

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2002, 02:13:06 pm »

do not know if god is-has a solution to population control
But i am sure that religions are part of the population control.They kill so much each other with they cross,mosques and synaguoges that it helps a lot to have less people on earth
Not 100% true,cause this people have more childs than a rabit.Let say it helps to keep the balance

MEN INVENTED GOD.THE OTHER WAY IS STILL TO PROVE
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tullio

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2002, 02:46:08 pm »

JimH

My sincerest apologies.  I had no intention of opening this up again, but wanted merely to supply some sources of additional information.  It's probably best if I simply fade into the background.  A couple of points before I go:

I remember well as a young man in the heady days after WWII hearing about the promise of nuclear energy, including electricity "too cheap to meter."  The dream has long been with us, but the reality is as remote as ever.  Even back in the early 50s people stopped to ask, "If electricity is too cheap to meter, who is going to bother to make it?"  Barring some miraculous way of individuals being able to extract energy directly from the environment, there will always be the costs of production/collection and distribution, and those who produce, collect, and distribute will want to be rewarded for their efforts.  Even a governmentally run enterprise will require funding to operate.

One doesn't have to go as far as chaos theory to establish the interconnectedness of things. In addressing the "world problematique" the Club of Rome tried to take into account as many factors as possible, not merely the physical, but also the social, economic, and political.  We can calculate easily the number of hectares of unoccupied land, but it's far more difficult to devise ways of enticing/enabling/forcing people to live there.  The motivation to move elsewhere for a better life is strong, but not absolute.  Historically almost half of the immigrants to the US have returned to their native countries.

Enough.  The problem is enormously complex and intricate.  The best hope for a reasonable fast solution lies in the political arena, not the scientific, and I see little in contemporary politics, domestic or international, that looks encouraging.

For anyone interested in learning more about the computer models used by the Club of Rome the Canadian branch has good material at http://www.cacor.ca/home.html

You are an interesting group of people, but I obviously don't belong here.  To paraphrase William James, many of you don't argue, you merely rearrange your prejudices.

Ciao e buona fortuna
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zevele1

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2002, 03:10:56 pm »

you are right tullio about your last sentence
It is hard to only argue.It is very difficult to not have any prejudice
if you are able to not have any,let me tell you that i admire you
yonatan
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Scronch

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2002, 05:27:51 pm »

Well, something positive anyway.

Zev, how's your Genesis endeavor coming?

Scronch
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MHorton

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2002, 07:45:06 pm »

tullio

Hold that door, I'm going with you . . . .
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Severian

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2002, 08:32:29 pm »

The US has a North Coast?

Wait up, you guys! I'm comin' with!
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JimH

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2002, 09:56:07 pm »

Tullio,
If you go away now, I'm going to quit, too.  I agree that there is sometimes a lot of chaff here, but the wheat is worth the trouble.

I will tighten the screws on editing slightly.

"Never discuss religion, sex, or politics in polite company."

Some will think I'm out of bounds to bring up some of these topics, but I think they are critically important and that our political leadership on them is almost non-existant. Our political system in the U.S. is driven by campaign contributions.  If we don't see change coming from the ground up, we won't see it.

I'd appreciate hearing from you at jimh @ jriver.com.

Jim
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Jim Hillegass
JRiver Media Center / Media Jukebox

zevele1

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RE:Additional sources for light reading
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2002, 02:37:44 am »

Sronch
"test 2' post around  number 80  -03-05-2002 10:15:11 am ,there is a post about Foxtrot
At this time i am not able to concentrate on anything.So "selling....pond" is for latter.Also,bad things leading to good ones,i have my father here.So i cannot play music loud.For me it is akin to not be able to play music
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