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Author Topic: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?  (Read 21207 times)

Samson

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Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« on: October 03, 2013, 03:51:47 am »

Hi all,
I have decided to build a Windows based dedicated HTPC/Audio-Video Server with MC19 (and not an NAS based system). I have a fake partial wall in the living room, behind which a HTPC (even a tower) can be invisible and partially sound shielded. Slightly larger Form factors and quiet fans are acceptable. I will likely have internal (?)4tb SATA media drives.  

VIDEO
I want a discrete GPU.The Nvidia GT640 (PCI Express 3.0, 2048 MB (2GB) DDR3,128bit,directX 11,HDMI V1.4  1920X1080) has a quiet fan and is reasonably priced. Its not 4k but its unlikely I'll have a 4k TV any time soon. Is it powerful enough for full MadVR rendering/scaling etc ?

AUDIO
I am contemplating an upmarket internal sound card with in-built spdif output, or even better an AES/EBU output on a balanced XLR connection if this exists, directly into my Levinson 24@96 DAC. Or is the ubiquitous USB audio with usb DACS somehow technically superior for pc audio ?

HORSEPOWER
I Gather Desktop Haswell's are not yet up to scratch ? Any suggestions for latest MOBO/Chipset/CPU/PSU not constrained by size but that wont spin the power meter into meltdown?
As I record TV at night is there a way to sleep the pc/server and wake it to record?

Cheers and thanks,David
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Micromecca

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 07:02:45 am »

Hi David although I dont have any direct experience with the GT640 my guess is that it won't be able to handle 1080i/60 content at high quality MadVR settings, there is a GDDR5 model available though which you 'may' get away with at low settings, thoughts anyone?

I can thoroughly recommend the GTX650ti for MadVR if you can stretch to it, I have been using them religiously in new builds lately and they are very well suited, something like the MSI Cyclone Model is virtually silent from outide the case, you certainly woudn't hear it through a wall  ;D

The only real benefit to USB DACS afaik is that they are async, I am sure that your Levinson DAC will have a very high quality clock and think you would have to spend a substantial amount of cash to better the sound quality with a new async USB model.
I also have read that it is better to use an optical connection rather than electrical (XLR, coax) to carry digital audio from a PC as it is electronically isolated and will not carry over any noise from the PSU.

Regarding the processor will it be performing any transcoding? if not you will probably be able to get away with a low power i5 or even i3 model.

hope this helps
Martin
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Samson

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 07:51:33 am »

Hi Micromecca,sounds like you do a few new builds. Thanks for the info about the GPU's.

Yes, the Levinson 30.6 is musical magic to my ears and partnered with the 31 transport is still hard to beat....but PC audio is I believe the future of the high-end.That 30.1/30.6 combo sounds best with the AES/EBU XLR connection perhaps because of the balanced self cancelling of interference.But as you say optical interconnects should not be prone to electrical interference either. In the case of pc audio I guess either way there would be still potential for EMI/RF/ground loops whatever prior to reaching the digital output stage on the card. As usb data transfer has became virtually a standard for pc audio I wondered whether it had other inherent advantages eg using ASIO drivers to bypass internal pc digital signal processing.

Some down sampling is required as the Levinson wont play beyond 96 kHz.Transcoding likely not required for audio but maybe streaming video to players with more limited decoding ability. Also I think MadVR is fairly CPU intense ?

Thanks again.
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Micromecca

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 08:01:51 am »

Most of the work is done on the GPU with MadVR so for simple playback with no transcoding an i3 3220 is sufficient along with a decent GPU such as the 650ti  :)
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mojave

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 09:20:45 am »

AUDIO
I am contemplating an upmarket internal sound card with in-built spdif output, or even better an AES/EBU output on a balanced XLR connection if this exists, directly into my Levinson 24@96 DAC. Or is the ubiquitous USB audio with usb DACS somehow technically superior for pc audio ?
I have a Lynx AES16e for 16 channels of AES output from my computer.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 11:31:13 am »

VIDEO
I want a discrete GPU.The Nvidia GT640 (PCI Express 3.0, 2048 MB (2GB) DDR3,128bit,directX 11,HDMI V1.4  1920X1080) has a quiet fan and is reasonably priced. Its not 4k but its unlikely I'll have a 4k TV any time soon. Is it powerful enough for full MadVR rendering/scaling etc ?

I don't think a 640 will do everything on the best settings. You might get away with it if you don't want to let it handle deinterlacing for instance. I think Jmone did some tests and found a 660ti to be able to everything with a little headroom. Try searching for it in the video cards section.

AUDIO
I am contemplating an upmarket internal sound card with in-built spdif output, or even better an AES/EBU output on a balanced XLR connection if this exists, directly into my Levinson 24@96 DAC. Or is the ubiquitous USB audio with usb DACS somehow technically superior for pc audio ?
My take (and there are plenty of people who disagree): digital is digital. Optical or coax out on a recent pc with built in soundcard will be as good as any other digital output.

When we talk about USB DACs, I think this totally changes the matter. A USB DAC will output analog to your pre-amp and everything will depend on how well that DAC is built. Also, a USB DAC might support more formats too, so for instance, some DACs support DSD natively. Outputting DSD might sound slightly different from PCM.

HORSEPOWER
I Gather Desktop Haswell's are not yet up to scratch ? Any suggestions for latest MOBO/Chipset/CPU/PSU not constrained by size but that wont spin the power meter into meltdown?
As I record TV at night is there a way to sleep the pc/server and wake it to record?

Cheers and thanks,David

What do you mean "up to scratch"? Haswell are perfect IMO, especially since you want a discrete videocard anyway; more computing power and less power consumption, less heat, less fan noise. I wouldn't go for anything less if I had to build another pc.

Can't answer tv question, JRiver doesn't support CI+ encryption yet (hint to Yoabing ;)).
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Samson

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 05:26:23 pm »

Most of the work is done on the GPU with MadVR so for simple playback with no transcoding an i3 3220 is sufficient along with a decent GPU such as the 650ti  :)

Ah,ok,makes sense.Thanks

I have a Lynx AES16e for 16 channels of AES output from my computer.
Thanks Mojave,good to know.Unfortunately the link doesn't work for me but will google it.

When we talk about USB DACs, I think this totally changes the matter. A USB DAC will output analog to your pre-amp and everything will depend on how well that DAC is built.

Hi Inflatable :-). Yes I guess i was fishing for other ways USB might be a better vehicle for pc audio.Im thinking about which method would maximally bypass internal pc processing prior to reaching the DAC.This may be more dependent on whether you choose WASAPI exclusive vs Kernel streaming etc? In the case of my present usb dac (RME Babyface) it has its own ASIO driver which apparently achieves a bit perfect output.Presumably then audio drivers are important as the last step before handing off to the sound card? If so, I can only guess that an upmarket soundcard would come with 'quality' drivers and preserve bit transparency to the DAC.
Timing considerations are the other half of the equation and obviously in the world of usb this is allegedly dealt with by employing asynchronous (isochronous or sometimes bulk transfer mode) re-clocking of the audio signal. My Levinson DAC would no doubt have extraordinary overall jitter rejection when partnered with it's own transport but this may rely on the transport's clock, I don't know. I have no idea how it may or may not reclock the audio signal from other sources.I will need to explore this further I guess.
Not wishing to offend anyone but many maintain that digital audio transmission is essentially an analogue stream of electrons, voltages turning on or off in line with the binary code....and with potential for degradation in timing by eg electrical interference.In this respect I wondered whether different buses eg usb or forms of data transmission eg spdif may infer some advantage.
My area of expertise is more what happens beyond the human ear drum so I rely on computer science experts for 'bits' preceding this :-)
 

Quote
What do you mean "up to scratch"? Haswell are perfect IMO, especially since you want a discrete videocard anyway; more computing power and less power consumption, less heat, less fan noise. I wouldn't go for anything less if I had to build another pc.

Ok good to know. I think I got confused with the less than glowing comments about the integrated graphics.

Quote
Can't answer tv question, JRiver doesn't support CI+ encryption yet (hint to Yoabing ;)).

Does seem to be a logical function to have ;-)
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jmone

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 05:32:03 pm »

Yup - I like the 660ti as it will do the best settings on madVR up to 60i material.  I have one jammed into a Shuttle Cube and the ASUS cooling fans are quiet - here is the link on the discussion - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=75639.0
 
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Samson

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 02:41:31 am »

Hi Nathan,analogous to the hi Rez audio debate what does tapping into the 'full Monty' madvr best settings bring to the viewing experience ?
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 04:35:52 am »

Not wishing to offend anyone but many maintain that digital audio transmission is essentially an analogue stream of electrons, voltages turning on or off in line with the binary code....and with potential for degradation in timing by eg electrical interference.

I'll bite in danger of ridiculing myself or opening a can of worms :P.

Bits can be measured. First of all, if bits can flip on a USB cable due to interference, someone would have measured it. Sent bits need to match received bits. It's as simple as that and there is nothing magical about it. Bits don't colour green or purple to affect their state and USB data transfers would corrupt if what 'many' suggest is true. If this happens on a digital audio signal, you would hear static ticks or if enough sequencial bits would be scrambled it would turn into garbled noise. Randomly flipped bits will NEVER EVER reduce imaging, muddle bass or reduce highs. Bits don't get shuffled around on a cable either, it simply doesn't work like that.

Maybe this will help. I'll try to explain how I think this works. And I'm probably wrong on some or all of the technical bits here (pun intended), but I believe the ghist of it is correct. Let's asume you're listening to music and you believe you hear reduced imaging after swapping a USB cable over which digital audio is transferred. Let's establish what needs to happen for that to occur. Imaging exist due to slight delays and slightly louder/quieter on left/right channels in particular frequency ranges that make up an instrument. Some kind of interference would have to flip a number of bits in every sample on both channels and in the correct frequency ranges that make up said instrument in such a way that reduced imaging would be audible, while keeping the integrity of the audio signal (ie, not corrupting it). This would be a very advanced kind of DSP :). The fluctuations of this interference would also have to match the clock of the signal, otherwise the interference wouldn't be affecting the correct bits in each sample, it would gradually shift. If you understand how digital audio works, you'd understand that reducing the amplitude of a digital signal *cannot* be accomplished at random. Same with delaying a signal for a few milliseconds in order to affect imaging cannot happen at random due to "some kind of interference". If a signal is delayed at all, the entire signal would be delayed and not the frequencies of some instrument to affect placement. Really, in order for interference to accomplish all that, it would have to come from an alien device. No known interference on earth will accomplish that. Even if it were possible for interference to affect a particular frequency range in a digital signal, it still wouldn't affect imaging of a single instrument or affect soundstage in its entirety. Im my belief, this is simply impossible.

Interference simply makes a nice smooth signal appear jagged. I believe that is all that it does. But as long as the receiving end interprets it as being a voltage peak high enough for it to be a bit, it just received a bit. No more, no less. Not a small bit or a loud bit. A bit is a bit. If it doesn't receive a peak voltage, it didn't receive a bit. How simple can it be? So the question really needs to be, will interference dampen a voltage peak to a point where it is no longer interpreted as a bit, or can it create voltage peaks so that the receiving end believes its receiving bits when it shouldn't? The answer IMHO is no. Maybe in a laboratory with artificial interference created for the sole purpose of creating such an effect, but in a living room? Not a change.

I'm happy to be proven wrong but until then, I believe, with all due respect that people claiming things like you suggest simply do not understand how it works. I believe these people take the effects of interference on an analogue signal and apply it 1:1 to a digital signal. To make that work, they reason the voltage signal is actually an analog signal as well so their theories apply. In part this is true, interference does apply but it doesn't have the effect they claim.

In this respect I wondered whether different buses eg usb or forms of data transmission eg spdif may infer some advantage.
My area of expertise is more what happens beyond the human ear drum so I rely on computer science experts for 'bits' preceding this :-)

USB is superior to optical or coax. Not only are optical and coax limited in their supported formats (usually 24-bit @ 96 or 192kHz max, whereas USB often supports 32-bit @ 384 kHz max), but they are also synchronous transfers, the sender determines the clock whereas USB is asynchronous and timing is of less importantance because the signal is buffered first and decoded from there on an internal clock. Whether you'd hear it is another matter entirely ;).

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jmone

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 03:30:19 pm »

Hi Nathan,analogous to the hi Rez audio debate what does tapping into the 'full Monty' madvr best settings bring to the viewing experience ?

It allows you to use all of madvr's different scaling algorithms.  Most prefer Jinc3 + the AR (anti ringer filter) but these take a lot of computation power.  Scaling needs to be done if the resolution of your source material is different to your display (for both Chroma and Luma) but always needs to be done for Chroma as this is stored in a subsampled format - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling and need to be expanded back to 4:4:4 in the resolution you want.

These pics are old - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228 but gives you an idea of what happens.

So the bit I find analogous to the Hi Res audio debate is simple if you can resolve the difference.  If you have screen, sit to far way, have poor source material or just don't notice it then it is not an issue.  Eg - my kids are fine watching poorly authored content on their iphones (but the do appreciate movie night on the 100" screen!).  This bit that is NOT analogous is that much of the audio "debate" is around perceiving differences in lossless audio.... unfortunately we are soooo far from lossless video it is not funny (you would need a bitrate in the GB/sec some 100times more than the bitrate of a BD if you stored uncompressed video).  
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Samson

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 06:58:03 am »

I'll bite in danger of ridiculing myself or opening a can of worms :P.


Inflatable, I don't think too many are arguing against bits being bits per se but rather the timing of said bits. The amplitude being preserved, sent and received as bits with checksums intact, but perhaps temporal distortions maybe responsible for the claimed imaging changes that you question. We know for example that sound of certain wavelengths sculpt around the face and nose causing minor ear to ear time differences to create the perception of auditory localization so perhaps temporal distortions could affect this process.

As "Audiophile Neuroscience", I started a thread over at Computer Audiophile Where is Audio Truth?. It sparked a great deal of interesting debate causing I think even hardliners on both sides of the fence to pause for thought, softening the rigidity of their beliefs. It dabbled in everything from metaphysics to epistemology...not your ordinary flawed subjectivist vs objectivist stuff. Notably, I think people on both sides actually enjoyed it.

FYI a couple of other references:
Beyond Bit Perfect
There's no such thing as digital

Interact is NOT the forum for these kind of debates and that’s probably a good thing. However I believe such things do warrant debating.The problem is it becomes a battle of personalities (...yawn) rather than impartial scientists. I remain open to possibility even if it seems impossible given the state of our current knowledge.

Like Donald said "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." To this can be added the 'unknown known', interpreted variously as that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know, things that we knew but have forgotten, things that we know but are unaware of knowing or even unconscious expectations or prejudices influencing our belief systems and perceptions.Its the unknown unknowns and the unknown knowns that trip you up.

If inclined read the CA thread (if you have a free week,lol) and add any comments there.They would appreciate someone with your intellectual acuity.
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Samson

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 07:19:09 am »


These pics are old - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228 but gives you an idea of what happens.

As much as I may have sounded like a "subjectivist" in the above dialogue, I couldnt convince myself that the technical superiority here translated in subjectively seeing much of a difference in the pics.I couldnt get to see all of them however.Analogous to me not hearing a difference between say 24@96 and 24@192 - Pity there's not a way of seeing actual videos to compare (provided you have the necessary hardware to display it). The relevance for me is if I can't tell the difference why go to the extra expense setting up a more expensive HTPC. Note, I'm not saying there is no difference between Red October Standard to Red October HQ in all its glory...or for that matter an audible difference between audio sampling frequencies.

Sigh, like downloading hiRez audio 'just in case', I know I am going to get the more expensive graphics card to watch the 'higher quality' video ! Do you really have a 100" screen ?...hmmnn, nah my wife wouldn't let me....I'll just come to your place !

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jmone

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Re: Best HTPC/Audio+Video Server Build Sept 2013 ?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 09:58:33 pm »

You have hit the nail on the head.  If you don't perceive a difference then it just does not matter (I have both a 60" Pio Plasma and a 100" PJ and I can see the difference though I'm sure the family don't notice or care).
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