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[thm655321]

Here's the scenario.  For years I have used foobar including to tag files.  I have spent countless hours updating tags to the way I like them.  Because of the limited tagging ability of flacs, I use the genre tag not for the typical genre (blues, rock, jazz, etc.) but instead for a description of the type of album (vinyl conversion, SACD, HDCD, SHM-CD, etc.) or just blank if it is a regular CD.  Prior to loading my files into a JRiver library all my genre tags were correct.

When loaded in to a JRiver library my specific tags are there but in addition there are a whole bunch of other genre tags (alternative rock, rock, jazz, vocal, etc.) added in to a number of files.  So I manually deleted all those extra tags.  And I have set JRiver to update files for tag changes.  After I was done I cleared the library and added the files back in.  And what do you know, all of those extra genre tags are back in as if I never edited them at all.

Just to be sure I reedited them again, cleared the library and loaded them again.  Same result.

Can someone explain what is going on here?  I may have to give up on JRiver altogether if it behaves like this.

Thanks in advance.

[Matt]

Can someone explain what is going on here?  I may have to give up on JRiver altogether if it behaves like this.

Could you provide a sample file to logs at jriver [dot] com?

Thanks.

[thm655321]

Email sent.

For the example file I sent, if you look at the tags using DBPoweramp or foobar the genre tag is blank as I intended it.

When I load it into JRiver the genre tag is "vocal".  Why is that happening and how do I defeat that?

Thanks.

[whatsup]

Could it be...tools...options...general....then under online metadata...(uncheck) allow automatic CD lookup / submisson

[thm655321]

Thanks but that is already unchecked and I presume only applies when you are ripping CDs not importing flac files.

[Matt]

Email sent.

For the example file I sent, if you look at the tags using DBPoweramp or foobar the genre tag is blank as I intended it.

When I load it into JRiver the genre tag is "vocal".  Why is that happening and how do I defeat that?

Thanks for the sample.

When I import that file, the genre is blank as expected.  The tag dump MC (Action Window > Tag > click first line) also shows no genre tag.

So I can't explain why the genre would be filled.

Is it possible you've configured auto-import rules that could be applying a genre?  Or that the file is in a playlist that's getting imported that contains a genre?

What if you make a copy of the file and drag-n-drop it into the program?

Thanks.

[thm655321]

Thanks for that.

I think the difference may be due to loading the entire album vs. just that song.

Most interestingly, what I have discovered is that in each case where the additional genre tags are applied they are applied only to the last song of the particular album.

This does not happen with every album, just ones that have the genre tag blank and even then only to certain ones of those (I have no idea why).

Also, if you select a specific file that has the additional tag shown in the column list, and then look at the actual flag properties by clicking on the top of the tag action window, there will be no genre tag there (because the genre is blank).  So where is JRiver getting the additional tag that shows in the column list (and gets reflected elsewhere such as in the genre list)?

Thanks again.

Edit:  Also, I give my music files to a friend of mine as a backup.  It was he who turned me on to JRiver's ability to access all your music through the server feature, which is why I am so interested in JRiver now.  In any event, he is experiencing the exact same thing that I am to a tee, so it is not system related per se and for that reason I don't think it would be playlist related.

[scubarob]

I am experiencing the same issue. (The friend identified in the previous post)
After cleaning up tags and ensuring a Genre TAG has been removed, a Genre tag is being applied back into the song by JRiver. For this process JRiver is closed, and the TAG verified using 2-3 other programs. At this point, the Genre field is blank. After re-importing the file back into JRiver, a Genre tag is once again applied. Looking back into the original file shows that a Genre TAG does not exist in the file.

Other strange issues. After doing a CLEAN on the Library, I re-imported all files. The Summary showed that 20 files were not imported, but when I look into the library, they are in there and playable. These are files which were previously identified as not importable, and I had previously re-tagged allowing the import. Now, after a Clean of the library, they show as still being unable to import, but they are in the library.
Is there a cache stored somewhere, and being used as a look-up reference ?


 

[Matt]

I'm puzzled on this, so need to ask more questions:

To make sure:

1) All the files are FLAC files (and no CUE files are used)?

2) Are the mystery values like "alternative rock", "vocal" etc. values used correctly by other files in the library, or is the origin of the string a total mystery?

3) If you make a new library to test, and import only a handful of albums using 'Import Single Folder', does it happen right away?  Or will the genres fill in later after some other event?

4) Are you running the latest version (19.0.50), downloaded from JRiver and licensed?

Thanks.  I'd love to get this solved.

[thm655321]

1) All the files are FLAC files (and no CUE files are used)?

All flac files.  There are cue files in the directories but I am not using those and when I import my main music folder I choose to ignore special files and the detailed results show cue files not imported.

2) Are the mystery values like "alternative rock", "vocal" etc. values used correctly by other files in the library, or is the origin of the string a total mystery?

Total mystery, I don't use those at all.

3) If you make a new library to test, and import only a handful of albums using 'Import Single Folder', does it happen right away?  Or will the genres fill in later after some other event?

Right away.

4) Are you running the latest version (19.0.50), downloaded from JRiver and licensed?

I was running the .49 (didn't know there was a .50).  I am still in my trial period.

Thanks for the help, we would love to get this solved as well.

Again, I think the fact that it only happens to the last song/flac file must mean something.

[Matt]

1) All the files are FLAC files (and no CUE files are used)?

All flac files.  There are cue files in the directories but I am not using those and when I import my main music folder I choose to ignore special files and the detailed results show cue files not imported.

Could you test with CUE files out of the loop (ie. removed from the folder temporarily)?  This could be the answer.  

If so, it sounds like an MC bug we'll fix, but the first step is figuring it out.

Thanks.

[thm655321]

I took all files out of the directory except for the flac files themselves.  In JRiver I deleted from the library the entire album.  I then reimported just the album folder with those flac files.

Same result, last file has the mystery genre tag, the other files in the album are okay.

The file in question is the same one I emailed to logs AT jriver DOT ...

Thanks.

[Matt]

In JRiver I deleted from the library the entire album.  I then reimported just the album folder with those flac files.

That's not enough to remove the database record because MC keeps track of removed entries so it can optionally not import them again.

So please create a second library to test.  Clear it using File > Library > Clear Library.  Then import and see if not having the CUE solves the issue.

Thanks.

[scubarob]

Well, we are getting closer. I looked at the .cue files and some have:

REM GENRE Vocal (on the first line of the .CUE file)

As a test after performing a CLEAR, then importing a small directory without these files none have a GENRE entry, where on past imports the last file of the album set had an entry.

[thm655321]

I did not do the jriver test that scubarob just did (although I presume my result would be the same), but opened that same .cue file in foobar and it too showed genre vocal and the other info in REM lines at the top of the cue file but in foobar's case it showed it for every file.  In JRiver it shows it for just the last file.

The question I have now is why is JRiver reading the cue files at all instead of just reading the tags?  Using the program one would have no idea that it would be looking at cue files.  And how do I stop it from doing that?

Thanks.

[scubarob]

The file causing the problem is named : FLAC - Noncompliant.cue
if this helps remedy the problem

[Matt]

Could you provide a sample folder with the FLAC files and the CUE to logs at jriver dot com (maybe using Dropbox)?

I've never seen a case where multiple tracks have a CUE file.  Normally a CUE is used when there's a single large file for the entire album.

Thanks.

[scubarob]

Files have been sent to Dropbox

[Matt]

Thanks for the sample.

The folder contains a CUE:
FLAC - Noncompliant.cue

The CUE contains tags, including genre:
REM GENRE Vocal
REM DATE 2001
REM DISCID 3212A616
REM COMMENT "ExactAudioCopy v0.99pb4"
PERFORMER "Shirley Bassey"
TITLE "Sings The Standards"

The CUE also says "I apply to each individual file", like:
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Fly Me To The Moon (In Other Words) (1964)"
    PERFORMER "Shirley Bassey"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "I Get A Kick Out Of You (Anything Goes) (1962)"
    PERFORMER "Shirley Bassey"
    INDEX 00 03:31:37

Given all this, it seems like it's reasonable for MC to honor the CUE values if it imports it.

If you tell MC to import only FLAC files (uncheck the CUE entry), I'd expect it not to honor the CUE tags.

Thoughts?

[scubarob]

Thanks Matt
Where do I "uncheck" .cue for importing a single folder (or Auto Import)

[scubarob]

OK - found it.

Thanks for the assistance.

[Matt]

OK - found it.

Thanks for the assistance.

Just to be sure, does that solve the issue as expected?

Also, do you know the logic behind keeping a CUE file when you have individual tracks?  It seems like it's adding some complexity since both tracks and the CUE support tags.

I'd like to make the program handle this better, but the file structure isn't one I've seen before so I'd like to understand the motivation.

Thanks.

[thm655321]

Okay, I unchecked cue files from the list of audio to import and that has fixed it, which makes me happy of course.

However, it does beg a number of questions.

Why is a cue file even in the list of audio?  It is the only item in the list that is not an audio format (MP3, Flac, etc.) and one would not normally think to have to uncheck it because to me it should not be on the list in the first place.

Second, why is JRiver looking at the cue file and overriding the actual tag information?  No where could I find that would indicate that it would do this, resulting in this thread and lots of time spent by all of us trying to fix it.  All the JRiver library options are tag related not cue related, e.g. right clicking on a file, choosing "Library Tools" leads to "Update tags (from Library)" and "Update Library (from tags)".  Never does it say to/from cue file or that the cue file would ever be involved here.

Third, even if JRiver is looking to the cue files for whatever reason, why was it only affecting the last file in each album every single time?

Thanks.

Edit:  Just saw your post above.  I fully understand the use of cue files but these are generated automatically by EAC which I use to rip all of my CDs.  Thus the cue file.  This enables you to burn a backup of the CD properly just by loading the cue file which in this context is the real reason for having it.  Yes they are often used to show songs contained within one long file but there are other uses as above.

Having said all this I am not trying to be difficult I am just trying to understand how JRiver works as this behaviour is different from Media Monkey, foobar, etc. that I have traditionally been using.  Now that this issue has a solution, and a simple one at that, I think it's off to the races...

Thanks for all your help Matt, no way we could have solved it without you.