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[Bob Sorel]

The title says it all. I am still looking for a way to play either 3D BD-ISO files and/or the more recent 3D MKV files that can be created with makeMKV.

Frame packed 3D playback is the only feature I have been waiting for from MC...

[jmone]

Unless something recently changed, neither madshi (madVR) or nevcairiel (LAV Filters) have plans to support MVC (3D-AVC) so.... it is still third party players like TMT or PDVD.

[fitbrit]

I'm still holding out hope. The number of 3D movies coming out doesn't seem to be decreasing as far as I can tell.

[Bob Sorel]

There are a lot of people over at AVS (mostly in the projector forum) who would love to see a 3D solution for the PC from JRiver. What most people are doing now is using the Sigma or Realtek chip box players, but there are ongoing problems - like the handling of seamless branching titles and poor subtitle engines.

Unless something recently changed, neither madshi (madVR) or nevcairiel (LAV Filters) have plans to support MVC (3D-AVC) so....

They are not interested?? I know that they work on their own, and not for anyone in particular, but has anyone ever asked them to support 3D? And if they said they are not interested, then why is that?

Also, JRiver must have some coders who can do the job...As wonderful as madshi's and nevcariel's work is, I hope that JRiver is not depending on them solely for video development, especially since they do not work for JRiver, or at least as far as I know. If JRiver is to continue developing the video end of Media Center, then there needs to be at least one person on the payroll who can be directed to push development in certain areas - you can't make demands of "free" help...

[JimH]

Because to do Blu-ray completely, a company like JRiver must be a contributing member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, a group that has little interest in supporting smaller companies or users of HTPC's.

Last time I knew, it was $50,000 to join.  By itself, that's not impossible, but each industry group has a similar fee.  DLNA is another example.

I'm not convinced that 3D will be around ten years from now. 

[Matt]

I think 3d is here to stay, at least in theaters.  I also have 3d at home, although I don't use it much.

Last I played with 3d coding was about a year ago.  It was still a mess, and the nVidia driver wouldn't allow a windowed program to use 3d unless I renamed Media Center.exe to GoogleEarth.exe.

Now DirectX 11.1 has native stereoscopic support, but it's still early days for that as well.

[Matt]

especially since they do not work for JRiver, or at least as far as I know

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83481

[Bob Sorel]

Last time I knew, it was $50,000 to join.  By itself, that's not impossible, but each industry group has a similar fee.  DLNA is another example.

Ouch! That hurts! Do the same fees apply if you were to support makeMKV's MVC MKV format?

Last I played with 3d coding was about a year ago.  It was still a mess, and the nVidia driver wouldn't allow a windowed program to use 3d unless I renamed Media Center.exe to GoogleEarth.exe.

Now DirectX 11.1 has native stereoscopic support, but it's still early days for that as well.

Hopefully the mess wil get sorted out over time, so I guess I will just have to maintain a separate box for 3D for the foreseeable future. I really love MC19 and would prefer to use it for ALL of my media needs, but I understand your position fully.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83481

Great! I didn't know that! 

[jmone]

You could just use MC to launch another player for BD 3D - here is a thread on it - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81259.0

It would be easier if MC had a filetype for BD 3D

[fitbrit]

You could just use MC to launch another player for BD 3D - here is a thread on it - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81259.0

It would be easier if MC had a filetype for BD 3D

But I think MC should eventually be able to play mkv rips of 3D BluRays. That would be ideal, and should circumvent the BD licensing fee.

[Z0001]

You could just use MC to launch another player for BD 3D - here is a thread on it - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81259.0

It would be easier if MC had a filetype for BD 3D

This thread attached above is what I am using. Basically i am using MC as my library interface for browsing and also to play all my mkv files and for those times i want to play a disc or iso (2 or 3D) and have menu access then it launches TMT (or PDVD if you prefer). Works very well, and is a very clean interface. Jmone has been very helpful.
Z

[jmone]

But I think MC should eventually be able to play mkv rips of 3D BluRays. That would be ideal, and should circumvent the BD licensing fee.

It is simply that there is no freeware 3D MVC compatible directshow filters, unless nevcairiel / madshi decide they want the challenge of updating their filters to support 3D MVC .....

[fitbrit]

It is simply that there is no freeware 3D MVC compatible directshow filters, unless nevcairiel / madshi decide they want the challenge of updating their filters to support 3D MVC .....

Understood. I think the will be more demand for this, though,  Cinavia becomes used more and more. Then even the MKV rips of 3D movies won't play in third party Cinavia compliant software. this is one of the eg advantages of players like MC and MPC for 2D files at least. I will look into stereoscopic player to see if that would work.

[glynor]

Now DirectX 11.1 has native stereoscopic support, but it's still early days for that as well.

I noticed this when I updated my HTPC to Windows 8.1 this past week (which I like so far, by the way, still not sure about my desktops).

What is this native support good for, so far?

[Hendrik]

The only thing its good for is that it defines a unified way to render 3D video to the GPU, before you had to implement a specific way for every GPU vendor.
However, since its only available on Windows 8.1, its still rather useless in the real-world. Not to mention that its certainly possible that its not implemented by all the GPU vendors.

[Bob Sorel]

Because to do Blu-ray completely, a company like JRiver must be a contributing member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, a group that has little interest in supporting smaller companies or users of HTPC's.

Last time I knew, it was $50,000 to join.  By itself, that's not impossible, but each industry group has a similar fee.  DLNA is another example.

I was hoping to get an answer on this one, just out of curiosity - Do the same fees apply if you were to support makeMKV's MVC 3D MKV format? Are there other fees that would apply, or would that be the "free" option (as far as fees are concerned)?

[fitbrit]

I was hoping to get an answer on this one, just out of curiosity - Do the same fees apply if you were to support makeMKV's MVC 3D MKV format? Are there other fees that would apply, or would that be the "free" option (as far as fees are concerned)?

With this technology not too far away, I think 3D will only get bigger:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1495465/ultra-d-glasses-free-3d-update <- "affordable" (?) glasses free 3D coming soon. Excellent reviews so far.
I'm very excited by this for 65" + TVs. (I'll have to go with glasses for my 120" projection set up in the basement though).

I don't have any functional 3D displays yet, but I'm investing in the source material heavily now. I won't buy a 3D display until:

1) I can use MC to support the 3D ISO/3D MKV formats.
OR
2) I can't wait any longer and have to buy another program to do so.

[Bob Sorel]

Because to do Blu-ray completely, a company like JRiver must be a contributing member of the Blu-ray Disc Association, a group that has little interest in supporting smaller companies or users of HTPC's.

Last time I knew, it was $50,000 to join.  By itself, that's not impossible, but each industry group has a similar fee.  DLNA is another example.

I was hoping to get an answer on this one, just out of curiosity - Do the same fees apply if you were to support makeMKV's MVC 3D MKV format? Are there other fees that would apply, or would that be the "free" option (as far as fees are concerned)?

Still hoping to get an answer on this...

[Hendrik]

The fees are specifically for being a licensed Blu-ray player. There may be different licensing requirements for 3D playback that i'm not aware of from the top of my head.

[Bob Sorel]

The fees are specifically for being a licensed Blu-ray player. There may be different licensing requirements for 3D playback that i'm not aware of from the top of my head.

Thanks, Hendrik. The reason I am so interested in this is because it might be a LOT more economically feasible to support 3D MKV rather than 3D BD-ISO, and I would imagine that the task would also be a lot easier since the programmers would simply need to deal with 2 video streams within a single container rather than dealing with all of the overhead invested in BD-ISO. Maybe the nice folks at JRiver would consider 3D MKV support if enough people showed interest???

[Hendrik]

I cannot promise anything because there are many parts that are needed for this.

Playing 3D BDs or 3D MKVs requires basically 2 vital components: A H.264/MVC decoder, which decodes the image, and a video renderer which can process the decoded image and send it as a 3D signal to your TV.
Neither of these two components is available right now for MC to use.

While i can personally work on the first part (the decoder), the renderer is another matter. Maybe one day madVR will support 3D, or we'll have to work on a solution specifically for MC, but that would take a lot of time, and may not have a very high priority - especially because there is no good way yet to address all GPUs at once. Windows 8 added features to DirectX which may allow this in the future, however at a minimum we would want/need a solution that works on Windows 7, and not require 8.

[jmone]

Would it be possible to use decoders from other products, eg if you have say TMT paid for and installed could you use their filters in MC as with the dtsdecoderdll?

[Hendrik]

The decoder is one of the smallest problems here. Rendering is much more complicated.

[jmone]

Could you also use their renderer or would it not load?

[Hendrik]

Thats not going to work, no. You can't just take someones stuff and use it as-is. That it works for the DTS Decoder is only due to the fact that audio decoding is generally a rather simple concept and doesn't need much interaction.

[jmone]

Thanks - how about this for a simple option then.  You could also add a new file type for MVC as well as BD 3D and have MC launch a 3rd party player.

At present we can not play 3D BD in MC, only licenced players like TMT can do this but I've got a clever plan till we wait for LAV/madVR support for 3D that should be easy to identify and kick off the embedded versions of TMT etc just for BD 3D playback.

There has been a bit of traffic on the AnyDVD HD JRiver MC thread on how to get this done.  I've tested this with batch files and it seems to work (but who really knows!)

Can JR:
1) add a new File Type called "3D-Blu Ray".  The default "Playback Method" would be "Automatic" (and RO would play it as a 2D Disk thanks to LAV) but if a user selected "External Program (Custom)" we could then put in "C:\Program Files (x86)\ArcSoft\TotalMedia Theatre 5\uMCEPlayer5.exe"  MC would need to add the drive identifier as the "Argument"
2) On inserting a BD (or mounting it) Identification that it is a 3D BD disk is easy as it has a folder called "\BDMV\STREAM\SSIF" which is not on 2D disks

The great thing about the uMCEPlaer5.exe version is that it is designed to be called by other progs (MCE in particular) so when you press the "Back / Backspace" button it exits and returns you to MC!

Brilliant or What!

[jmone]

PS - I've written a script to do this for 3D BD but it really would be better to integrate the logic in MC - "3D BD : Integrating a 3rd Party Player with MC"  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81259.0

[Hendrik]

I'm no fan of such solutions.

[jmone]

Back to square one then.

[Bob Sorel]

Jmone, I appreciate your efforts to find a workaround, but I have to agree with Hendrik. Calling up a third party program defeats the purpose of having an "all-in-one" solution in Media Center. Personally speaking, I do not care for TMT, as I have just had too many issues with it in the past. My hopes are to have a single program solution for all of my media needs - a program I can install on a fresh computer and have it play everything right out of the box, and right now MC is very very close to that ideal.

- especially because there is no good way yet to address all GPUs at once.

I guess that is a big reason why the Linux media streamers (like Mede8er) can play back both 3D BD-ISO and 3D MKV - because they only have to deal with a single GPU.

When you say "all GPUs" are you talking about just the different companies (like Nvidia or AMD/ATI) or are you talking about all the different models available within a company's set of offerings (5000 series, 6000 series, etc.)? If I understand correctly, as it is now the LAV filters only support Nvidia cards, right? Or has that changed? If that is the case, then wouldn't you only need to support the 3D features of Nvidia cards, and not bother with AMD/ATI?

At any rate, I understand the complexity of the problem, but I also think that you guys are underestimating the number of people who would really like to see MC provide a 3D solution. But then again, maybe I am wrong...maybe there are just a handful of us who are interested and it would not be worth your investment in time and effort. But I really don't think that 3D will go away this time. All you have to do is hang around at AVS forum for awhile to see the large number of people still buying 3D displays (both projected and flat panel) and the 3D streaming boxes.

I hope that someone can convince madshi to support 3D rendering some day...

[Hendrik]

When you say "all GPUs" are you talking about just the different companies (like Nvidia or AMD/ATI) or are you talking about all the different models available within a company's set of offerings (5000 series, 6000 series, etc.)? If I understand correctly, as it is now the LAV filters only support Nvidia cards, right? Or has that changed? If that is the case, then wouldn't you only need to support the 3D features of Nvidia cards, and not bother with AMD/ATI?

Just the different companies, would need 3D rendering for NVIDIA, AMD and Intel, which use different ways of doing things, so its 3x the effort (or 4x if you also want to support the generic DirectX way in Windows
And LAV supports all 3 vendors these days.

I do think it will happen, hopefully sometime in the first half of 2014, but not much sooner. Still a lot of things to figure out. Don't take this as a promise though, just my gut feeling on the topic.

[6233638]

I thought that Windows 8's 3D support worked with all three vendors. Is that not the easiest solution?

[Hendrik]

It does, but supporting only Windows 8 and above is not a viable choice.

[Bob Sorel]

I do think it will happen, hopefully sometime in the first half of 2014, but not much sooner. Still a lot of things to figure out. Don't take this as a promise though, just my gut feeling on the topic.

Ok, gotcha...not a promise, but I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that it will happen some day.

Thanks, Hendrik!

[fitbrit]

He says it's not a promise, but my brain isn't accepting that. I am now filled with foolish and unfounded optimism. I'll check back next week to see if MC supports 3D mkv yet.

[jmone]

FYI - Filter Graph from Stereoscopic Player

Code: [Select]

3dtv.at Stereo Renderer
  In connected to 3dtv.at Stereo Transformation (RGB, 32 bpp, 1 x 1920 x 1080, 16:9)
DirectSound Audio Renderer
  Audio Input pin (rendered) connected to 3dtv.at Audio Stream Switcher (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
3dtv.at Stereo Transformation
  Input 1 connected to 3dtv.at AVC/MVC Decoder (by CoreCodec) (YV12, 12 bpp, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps, progressive)
  Input 2 connected to 3dtv.at AVC/MVC Decoder (by CoreCodec) (YV12, 12 bpp, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps, progressive)
  Input 3 not connected
  Subpicture Input not connected
  Output 1 connected to 3dtv.at Stereo Renderer (RGB, 32 bpp, 1 x 1920 x -1080, 16:9)
3dtv.at Audio Stream Switcher
  Input 1 connected to LAV Audio Decoder (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
  Input 2 connected to LAV Audio Decoder 0002 (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
  Input 3 not connected
  Output connected to DirectSound Audio Renderer (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
3dtv.at AVC/MVC Decoder (by CoreCodec)
  AVC connected to 3dtv.at Matroska Source (by MPC-HC) (AMVC, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps)
  Output 1 connected to 3dtv.at Stereo Transformation (YV12, 12 bpp, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps, progressive)
  Output 2 connected to 3dtv.at Stereo Transformation (YV12, 12 bpp, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps, progressive)
LAV Audio Decoder 0002
  Input connected to 3dtv.at Matroska Source (by MPC-HC) (DTS, 6 ch, 48000 Hz)
  Output connected to 3dtv.at Audio Stream Switcher (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
LAV Audio Decoder
  Input connected to 3dtv.at Matroska Source (by MPC-HC) (DTS, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
  Output connected to 3dtv.at Audio Stream Switcher (PCM, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
3dtv.at Matroska Source (by MPC-HC)
  English (Video 1) connected to 3dtv.at AVC/MVC Decoder (by CoreCodec) (AMVC, 1920 x 1080, 16:9, 23 fps)
  English, Lossless (Audio 1) [Default] connected to LAV Audio Decoder (DTS, 6 ch, 48000 Hz, 24 bits)
  English, 3/2+1 (Audio 2) connected to LAV Audio Decoder 0002 (DTS, 6 ch, 48000 Hz)
  English (Subtitle 1) [Default] not connected

Their Video Stereo Transformation (lots of options) and for the Video Stereo Renderer I could load into my own graph but the Core AVC/MVC decoder will not.  Anyway if Hendrik does do some MVC decoding work then at least there is a Tranform/Render filters to test against.  

Brings back memory of the "good old days" of trying to get filters to play with each other before being saved by Red October.

[Hendrik]

You seem to have the idea in your head that any filter can be used for anything. These filters CANNOT be re-used.

[jmone]

Apologies for any offence / frustration caused (you are my video/filter hero and I'm so very pleased you are now an official JR'er) - I'm just trying to help with ideas.... even if they are uneducated.  I have only ever watched one 3D BD (Avatar) and that came free with the PJ.  That said I'd love to see MC support all the features of the BD Licenced Players without being licenced as it makes MC a full featured alternative....  eg Menus and Navigation as well as 3D without having to add all the licencing requirements that means MC would have to support the encryption requirements.  

For what it is worth, I have found that you can connect the Steroscopic Player's Video Transformation and Renderer Filters just fine but obviously I don't have a Stereo Video Decoder (Core does produce one but it is only an OEM licence, they have not released a Retail One).  My post was that these exist and seem to connect fine and offer a heap of 3D Output formats (including MVC Frame Packed output) that could be used to test against.  The other option would be to see what it would cost to just licence these filters to use in MC and sell them as a 3D add on instead of developing all of them from scratch.  

Again sorry if I'm being a NooB but I figure there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Nathan

[rec head]

I currently use Intel on board video but would consider buying a discrete video card for 3d if JRiver only supported one or two manufacturers. Obviously not optimal but I don't think 3d can be written off.

[raym]

I'm no fan of such solutions.

Why?

Forget jmone's script. That's not the main argument. The proposal here is to simply extend MC's current ability to launch an external player on a media type basis. In this case, extending it to include 3d.

This seems like a perfectly viable solution to me especially since all other options are too costly or too complex to ever see the light of day.