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Author Topic: 4K TV's  (Read 25987 times)

Vocalpoint

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4K TV's
« on: November 13, 2013, 06:43:24 pm »

When you consider that 4K displays (3840x2160) are going to be mainstream soon with 8K already in the works, I don't know why you would compromise on cover quality.

Will be 3-5 years or more before even 4K becomes mainstream. With no source material for 4K even today - and TVs at 5K+ $$$ - can't see anyone rushing on that for a long while. Certainly not I :) And I wouldn't be buying a 4K TV to sit around and stare at my MC album art...:)

My only reasons for 500x500 is the lack of a standard source. If I could get everything at 3000x3000 I would...but it's just not possible. Probably will never be.

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6233638

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4K TV's
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 08:08:56 pm »

Will be 3-5 years or more before even 4K becomes mainstream. With no source material for 4K even today - and TVs at 5K+ $$$ - can't see anyone rushing on that for a long while. Certainly not I :) And I wouldn't be buying a 4K TV to sit around and stare at my MC album art...:)
Computers are your source for 4K today. I use a 46" LCD as my monitor and would very much appreciate the increase in resolution.

The desktop and games will all render natively at 4K, and with madVR, video upscaled to 4K should look rather good. 1080p is only 2MP, 4K is 8MP - most digital cameras have at least 8MP resolution now, even cell phones.
 
And 4K televisions are not $5000 - they start at $700 now. Sure, it's not going to be the same quality as a Sony or other big brand 4K set, but it is 4K resolution and shows that they don't need to be that expensive. They're only that expensive because they are new, not because they are expensive to manufacture.

My only reasons for 500x500 is the lack of a standard source. If I could get everything at 3000x3000 I would...but it's just not possible. Probably will never be.
But why standardize on 500x500 rather than use the highest resolution you have available?
 
And things seem to be improving all the time. Perhaps it's because albums get re-released, or digital releases on the iTunes store, but over time there seems to be much higher quality art available for older albums that used to only have low quality 300x300 images available.
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Sparks67

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4K TV's
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 09:57:10 pm »

Will be 3-5 years or more before even 4K becomes mainstream. With no source material for 4K even today - and TVs at 5K+ $$$.

Actually, the first 4k Media player has been released through ODEMAX.  The hardware is from REDRAY Player.  This device will work with any TV as well, but the content is not main stream movies. 
Netflix has started 4k as well, with one movie.  Sony has their streaming service and I am sure others will follow.   Satellite is coming as well, but expect about 18 months before that content is available. 
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Sparks67

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4K TV's
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 10:08:43 pm »

Computers are your source for 4K today. I use a 46" LCD as my monitor and would very much appreciate the increase in resolution.

The desktop and games will all render natively at 4K, and with madVR, video upscaled to 4K should look rather good. 1080p is only 2MP, 4K is 8MP - most digital cameras have at least 8MP resolution now, even cell phones.
 
And 4K televisions are not $5000 - they start at $700 now.

The best quality on the market is Sharp!  Seiki is a upstart China company that has about 4 years experience.  I personally will wait a few years, but we have used Chinese LCD monitors at work.  They last about a year.   So, the choice is yours on what you want to buy in 4k.  
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Vocalpoint

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 10:34:24 pm »

And 4K televisions are not $5000 - they start at $700 now. Sure, it's not going to be the same quality as a Sony or other big brand 4K set, but it is 4K resolution and shows that they don't need to be that expensive.

Of course there will be knockoffs - but that's not something I would ever consider buying. And - until there is content - I mean lots of it like 7.99 @ Best Buy...and a well appointed Sharp or Samsung 60 inch 4K TV is $999.00 @ Costco....then I would consider it "commercial". Until then - I am very happy with what I have now.

But why standardize on 500x500 rather than use the highest resolution you have available?

Mostly cause it's easy and plentiful. Really not interested in spending valuable time hunting around for large art when decent art will do. Would rather listen to tunes or watch real HD content.

Truthfully - I never "look" at the art as when MC is doing it's thing anyway. Sure it's "there" in several of my views - but only as a placeholder becuase having no art would drive me nuts. Overall - as long as it looks decent in JRemote or my standard PC monitors - that's good enough for me. The TV is off anyway when I use MC for music and when we fire up the really big screen - it's always for movies - never music - so the actual art resolution - is simply not a concern here.

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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 11:44:01 pm »

The best quality on the market is Sharp!  Seiki is a upstart China company that has about 4 years experience.  I personally will wait a few years, but we have used Chinese LCD monitors at work.  They last about a year.   So, the choice is yours on what you want to buy in 4k.
I think Sharp make great LCD panels, but bad televisions. Their image processing and controls leave a lot to be desired. I was very happy when Sony was using Sharp panels for a year or so rather than Samsung panels, but unfortunately they decided not to continue that partnership.

My point though, is that it is not expensive to make a 4K television - they're only expensive just now because they're new, and that means they can get away with charging a premium price for them.
Frankly, I wouldn't buy any 4K TV on the market right now, because they're all edge-lit LCDs. LED backlit displays don't seem to be in favor any more, so I'll have to wait for 4K OLED before upgrading from my current TV.

Of course there will be knockoffs - but that's not something I would ever consider buying. And - until there is content - I mean lots of it like 7.99 @ Best Buy...and a well appointed Sharp or Samsung 60 inch 4K TV is $999.00 @ Costco....then I would consider it "commercial". Until then - I am very happy with what I have now.
Well as I said above, there is plenty of content for 4K displays right now - just not a lot of 4K native video. We will hopefully hear something about a consumer 4K format from CES in January.
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2013, 01:57:48 am »

I think Sharp make great LCD panels, but bad televisions. Their image processing and controls leave a lot to be desired. I was very happy when Sony was using Sharp panels for a year or so rather than Samsung panels, but unfortunately they decided not to continue that partnership.

I own a Sony and it is one of the models that only lasted 3 years.  How would you like to hear from Sony that your 70" LCOS TV needs to be replaced every 3 years.   Sony has their own facebook page on replacement, "I Have a Defective Sony TV".  I never own another Sony product again.  Most of the LCD panels are made from Chimei Innolux (CMI) and AU Optronics (AUO).  Sharp is making IGZO panels, which is in the new Apple Air.  That is the new technology that I primary interested in for 4k. 

The biggest problem with 4k is distance to the screen.  For example, Sharp's new 70" 4k LED, the recommended viewing distance is 6 feet away.  Typically, now with my 1080p tv.  I am sitting around 10 to 11 feet away. I see that I probably need a 90" 4k TV or perhaps a projector.  8k is going to be even closer.  Japan wanted to skip 4k and go to 8k screens.   Audio right now is still at 7.1, but here is the recommended standard from NHK.  http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/bt/en/fe0045-6.pdf   I doubt we see any changes for audio for awhile. 

My point though, is that it is not expensive to make a 4K television - they're only expensive just now because they're new, and that means they can get away with charging a premium price for them.
Frankly, I wouldn't buy any 4K TV on the market right now, because they're all edge-lit LCDs. LED backlit displays don't seem to be in favor any more, so I'll have to wait for 4K OLED before upgrading from my current TV.
Well as I said above, there is plenty of content for 4K displays right now - just not a lot of 4K native video. We will hopefully hear something about a consumer 4K format from CES in January.

Based on demand, but this is so similar to the early HDTV's in the 1990's.  The content in the HDTV content was from C-Band, and then Directv started in 1994.   C-band had the better picture for HDTV, well, it is coming back again for 4k.   http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/0086/satellite-companies-prepare-for-ultra-hd/221086   DirectV is going back to Ka Band for 4k, but you have lot of compression. Rain fade again!   
One of these days we all optical fiber, but it will take awhile.   Rumour is that Sony is going to try Bluray 4k, but there is another format coming.    http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2012/html/tenji/index_e.html  The new format has higher data rates that Bluray, and bigger capacity.  I suspect that it will become the new media format soon. 

You do know about Sony's 56" 4k OLED, it was jointly developed with Au Optronics. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/monitors/display/20131001235555_Sony_Demonstrates_56_4K_UHDTV_with_OLED_Panel.html




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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 02:29:09 am »

I own a Sony and it is one of the models that only lasted 3 years.  How would you like to hear from Sony that your 70" LCOS TV needs to be replaced every 3 years.   Sony has their own facebook page on replacement, "I Have a Defective Sony TV".  I never own another Sony product again.
Rear projection televisions have always been quite unreliable, and many people were sold them without even knowing that you have to replace the lamp in them every few years. Sony's SXRDs did have a massive recall though, due to defective optical blocks causing green blobs to show up over the image.

The biggest problem with 4k is distance to the screen.  For example, Sharp's new 70" 4k LED, the recommended viewing distance is 6 feet away.  Typically, now with my 1080p tv.  I am sitting around 10 to 11 feet away. I see that I probably need a 90" 4k TV or perhaps a projector.  8k is going to be even closer.
Well, a lot of people sit too far from their TVs, or choose displays which are too small. But the distance at which 4K provides a benefit is further than many people expect. On many AV sites there's a bogus chart I see posted all the time, which says you need to sit much closer than you actually do.

It seems like the same FUD that was spread about 1080p back when it was just being introduced, before it was widely available at mainstream prices. (no point in 1080p below 60", no sources for it etc.)
Once we see 4K panels at lower prices from big names, people's opinion on it will change.

Japan wanted to skip 4k and go to 8k screens.
Until you can look at a television and be fooled into thinking it's reality, we don't have enough resolution. Even 8K doesn't get you there, and even without native sources, higher resolution panels reduce other distracting elements from the display, so even watching content upscaled is better than watching it on a natively lower resolution display.

Audio right now is still at 7.1, but here is the recommended standard from NHK.  http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/bt/en/fe0045-6.pdf   I doubt we see any changes for audio for awhile.  
Yeah, I think the way that audio is headed is unrealistic. Few people I know are willing to have a proper 5.1 setup (if they have 5.1 the speakers are often all sitting in a row next to each other) and fewer would be willing to move to 7.1

I've experimented with surround sound in the past, and for all the hassle, it just never seemed worth it. I'd rather buy a pair of nice stereo speakers than split that money over 5/7 bad ones.

I'm a lot more excited about AMD's TrueAudio than adding more speakers. (apparently this technology can also be made to work well with speakers rather than just headphones)
22.2 audio may be used to help improve virtual audio rather than actually being intended to be used to 22 speaker setups - at least I hope that is their intention.

You do know about Sony's 56" 4k OLED, it was jointly developed with Au Optronics. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/monitors/display/20131001235555_Sony_Demonstrates_56_4K_UHDTV_with_OLED_Panel.html
I'm very aware of this display, but I doubt they will be widely available or affordable any time soon. The plan right now is to sell them as broadcast monitors next year. (probably $20,000-30,000)
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jmone

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 02:56:34 am »

Wake me up when we have 4K source material and I'll happily pony up the $'s for the HW.  Here in Oz all the commercial TV Channels have dropped their HD TV broadcast (!&%$@!*&%) and I'm stuck with SD for FTA....  Even the selection of HD Pay TV is limited and much of it is badly compressed.  Looks like the average consumer just wants a wider selection of "content" over "quality".
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JRiver CEO Elect

6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2013, 03:04:07 am »

Wake me up when we have 4K source material and I'll happily pony up the $'s for the HW.  Here in Oz all the commercial TV Channels have dropped their HD TV broadcast (!&%$@!*&%) and I'm stuck with SD for FTA....  Even the selection of HD Pay TV is limited and much of it is badly compressed.  Looks like the average consumer just wants a wider selection of "content" over "quality".
I think what you meant to say was "wake me up when we have 4K broadcast" - we have plenty of 4K source material, just not much commercial 4K video, and no 4K broadcast yet.
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jmone

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2013, 03:11:39 am »

Sorry - I meant 4K commercial content for mainstream content such as Movies and TV.
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 03:22:11 am »

Sorry - I meant 4K commercial content for mainstream content such as Movies and TV.
Well anything shot in 35mm could benefit from 4K (but probably not 8K) and most new productions are shot in at least 4K now. The only problem is that we don't currently have a distribution format - and that will hopefully be announced at CES in January.

Even just upscaled 1080p content should look better than it does on 1080p displays though.
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dean70

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 04:20:10 am »

 Audio right now is still at 7.1, but here is the recommended standard from NHK.  http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/bt/en/fe0045-6.pdf   I doubt we see any changes for audio for awhile. 


Trying to get 22.2 channels to play nice in a typical room (even with treatment) would not be fun  :o
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jmone

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 05:32:14 am »

Well anything shot in 35mm could benefit from 4K (but probably not 8K) and most new productions are shot in at least 4K now. The only problem is that we don't currently have a distribution format - and that will hopefully be announced at CES in January.

Even just upscaled 1080p content should look better than it does on 1080p displays though.

I agree.... we already have to scale chroma with the current distribution formats and good algorithms could make luma scaling look good on high res screens if you sit close enough for the screen size to perceive the difference, but the law of diminishing returns kick in.  I'd personally prefer to see an increase of frame rate over resolution given any given limitation of bandwidth.  The jump from 24p to 50/60p is a marked difference and makes content looks great at the current 1920x1080 resolution.  While I'm on my soapbox, Interlaced content should be relegated to the history books as quickly as possible.

Edit: One day we may even get "lossless" video so we can prattle on like the audiophiles!  Bring on 4gbps media!
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Vocalpoint

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 06:56:48 am »

I think what you meant to say was "wake me up when we have 4K broadcast" - we have plenty of 4K source material, just not much commercial 4K video, and no 4K broadcast yet.

And since no one cares about "non-commercial" content - they will not care about 4K until there is LOTS of "commercial" content and at a price cheaper than HD is now.

I cannot see 4K (or 8K) being any cheaper for broadcast as the overhead and bandwidth for pushing that kind of resolution down the broadcast pipe simply does not exist right now. Here in Calgary - we can barely get a decent HD signal on cable on the 50 or so HD channels vying for position without it looking like crap due to severe compression.

I can't imagine how horrible it will look when our local CATV company tries to hammer us with 4K. They will have to replace the entire city infrastructure with fiber (at theor expense) if they hope to have any chance of delivering 4K broadcast content with any success.

But - due to these clowns upping their existing monthly charges seemingly every two months - they are bleeding customers like crazy...so it's doubtful there will be enough of a user base left to support something like 4K here in the not too distant future. Cable cutting is rampant up here - and folks do not seem to care about HD resolution...they simply do not want to pay the cable company for ANY content. HD or otherwise.

Unless these providers get their costs under control and start delivering value to the customer instead of price increase letters - I do not see a future for 4K broadcast as it stands right now. There will be no one left to pay for it.

VP
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2013, 09:34:27 am »

Sorry - I meant 4K commercial content for mainstream content such as Movies and TV.

The problem is that the Cable companies are refusing to upgrade to fiber optic to the home.  Although, NHK has been developing the technology since the late 1990's.  The link that I gave for the audio is just one article, but it NHK's magazine is called Broadcast Technology.   Use this as a search term "http www nhk or jp strl publica bt en"  in google.  Remove the EN, and see on how many hits you get in Japanese.    4k is not new technology, because a USA company developed a 4k format back in early 2000.   IBM sold the technology to those Taiwanese LCD manufacturers in 2005.
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Vocalpoint

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2013, 10:22:43 am »

The problem is that the Cable companies are refusing to upgrade to fiber optic to the home.

Exactly. Here in Calgary - Shaw Cable somehow has it in their head that I (and all other customers) should pay for this upgraded infrastructure (while they take their time to upgrade it) whilst continuing to serve up the same crap programming and sending us increase letters every two months.

People have simply had enough of the price increases and are dropping them in record numbers. Personally I am waiting to see if our government gives us the chance to cherry-pick our channels sometime next year and if that doesn't come to pass - I will be dropping them as well. There is no point in paying $200+ a month for a generally useless product...

VP
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2013, 01:48:36 pm »

And since no one cares about "non-commercial" content - they will not care about 4K until there is LOTS of "commercial" content and at a price cheaper than HD is now.
Again, the key word is video. Anything you can do on a computer benefits from 4K. My HTPC is the only source I have hooked up to my TV - it just gets used as a giant monitor. I couldn't care less about broadcast.  I would like to see a 4K disc format of course, but it's not essential for me to upgrade to 4K. Games, photo editing/viewing, and general computer use is enough.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2013, 02:37:45 pm »

Edit: One day we may even get "lossless" video so we can prattle on like the audiophiles!  Bring on 4gbps media!

There's no such thing, since the sources are almost always captured in a lossy codec.  But, for reference, 1080p60 @ 4:4:4, 10-bit is 3.73gbps uncompressed, not counting audio or alpha.  The same quality, but scaled to 4K would require more than 15gbps.  There's no non-flash hard drive that can push those kinds of data rates, much less a public network!

The problem with 4K displays (assuming they can work out the kinks using them as computer monitors anytime soon) is absolutely one of content delivery.  Even assuming that content is filmed and edited at 4K (which is a pretty big jump, even for many major motion pictures, much less TV content), there is absolutely no way to deliver it at data rates where it makes sense.

Don't even get me started about whatever Netflix and YouTube are calling 4K.  Their 1080p content is streamed at laughably bad data rates.  Scaling it to 4K is just going to make it WORSE, not better.

Generally, though, I agree with you Nathan.  But before we even get to full quality 4:4:4, or increase framerates, we really should get 1080p30 4:2:0 at higher data rates than 1.5mbps.  Even BluRay is pretty terrible "quality" compared to the sources, but what they put online is a complete joke.
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2013, 03:05:51 pm »

There's no such thing, since the sources are almost always captured in a lossy codec.
Well that's not strictly true - Red shoots raw video, and I'm fairly sure DPX files are uncompressed.

That said, I know someone that does mastering for DVDs & Blu-rays, and honestly if it is properly encoded (40GB X.264 for the Blu-rays) you're approaching visually lossless.
It's not identical of course, but the situation is not as bad as people seem to make out. People make a big deal about chroma resolution, but if you're using madVR on a HTPC, you're generally not missing much. The bigger difference is probably the fact that we're still encoding 8-bit video, which looks worse and is less efficient to compress - but properly dithered 8-bit encodes should look pretty good.

I won't say no to improvements of course.

assuming they can work out the kinks using them as computer monitors anytime soon
This is not really a monitor problem, but a controller problem. The display itself is treating the panel as 2x 1920x2160, so it's up to the video card to keep two separate outputs perfectly in sync - something they've not really had to do until now.

Even assuming that content is filmed and edited at 4K (which is a pretty big jump, even for many major motion pictures, much less TV content), there is absolutely no way to deliver it at data rates where it makes sense.
Well CES is right around the corner, hopefully we will see something about it then. We already have the tech to build a good 4K distribution format though.

Quad layer BDXL gives you 128GB storage, and moving from H.264 to H.265 effectively halves your filesize requirements - so when compared to the current 50GB Blu-ray discs, where ~40GB of that can be video, you have better quality just looking at the raw numbers. With H.265 you only need about 80GB storage for comparable quality to the best Blu-rays.
In addition to that, 4x the resolution is generally not 4x the complexity, and if they moved from 8-bit to 10-bit encoding, it would be even more efficient. As resolution goes up, the size of compression artifacts should be smaller as well.
So using 80GB with H.265 is going to give you better quality than we currently have on Blu-ray. That would actually fit on a triple-layer BDXL disc. (100GB)

But before we even get to full quality 4:4:4, or increase framerates, we really should get 1080p30 4:2:0 at higher data rates than 1.5mbps.  Even BluRay is pretty terrible "quality" compared to the sources, but what they put online is a complete joke.
Actually, it would be better to move to 4K than 1080p with 4:4:4 chroma. 4K 4:2:0 contains 1080p chroma.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2013, 04:29:20 pm »

Well that's not strictly true - Red shoots raw video, and I'm fairly sure DPX files are uncompressed.

No.  I've used a TON of RED footage.  Basically all of the B-Roll I've used for work over the past three years has been shot on a RED Scarlett in 4K mode.

All of RED's cameras shoot in REDCODE RAW (R3D) format, which is a wavelet compression scheme that does between 3:1 and 18:1 compression depending on the setting and the complexity of the scene.  It is a very nice codec, but it is most-definitely lossy, and it isn't too difficult to film examples that expose the compression errors even at the highest-quality settings (as usual, sudden lighting changes, slow wide pans, and moire patterns expose the faults in the codec).

The ARRI Alexa can shoot in ARRIRAW format, which is truly uncompressed (it records the raw sensor data), but many productions actually use it in ProRes 2K 4:4:4 mode (because you have to record to an external device to use the RAW mode, and real-world production makes this difficult in many circumstances).  Topping it off, the effective sensor resolution on the Alexa used in 16:9 mode is 2880×1620, so it is scaling in hardware when it "records" 4k.

That said, I know someone that does mastering for DVDs & Blu-rays, and honestly if it is properly encoded (40GB X.264 for the Blu-rays) you're approaching visually lossless.

I wasn't arguing that it matters, only that there is almost certainly no such thing as truly lossless for video.  Even if you did it at the consumer-end, there has almost certainly been multiple generations of lossy encoding between you and the people and the lights.

Hell, you could even argue that film is "compressed" (mechanically) by the cinemascope optics they use to squeeze widescreen content onto 4:3 negatives.

Also, you know two people.  ;)

Actually, it would be better to move to 4K than 1080p with 4:4:4 chroma. 4K 4:2:0 contains 1080p chroma.

It is nowhere near that simple.  4:2:2 at 4k would have:

Luma Channel: 3840x2160
Chroma A: 1920x1080
Chroma B: 1920x1080

For each frame.

4:2:0 does an interleave, so Frame A has:

Luma Channel: 3840x2160
Chroma A: 1920x1080
Chroma B: 0

and frame B has:

Luma Channel: 3840x2160
Chroma A: 0
Chroma B: 1920x1080

But, of course, you need BOTH Chroma A & B (and Luma) to make up a full YUV pixel, so the effective per-frame color resolution is 1/4 of the luma resolution at 4:2:0.

And, the chroma channels are subsampled of course, so it is effectively blurring 4 pixels together using an algorithm to make one composite pixel (because the sensor doesn't work that way, so it is done either in camera or in post).  Worse, if the source and post workflow isn't all completely 4:2:2 (much more common than you might think), then the output often ends up being the equivalent of 4:1:1 or 4:1:0, even though the wrapper and codec thinks it is 4:2:2 (which then they compress to H264 or MPEG-2).

Again, for MOST things, it doesn't matter.  For digital effects and greenscreen, though, it most certainly does matter.

As resolution goes up, the size of compression artifacts should be smaller as well.

That's handwaving.  The math gets harder too, and the ASICs they put in consumer hardware are generally junk barely able to decode H264 at 1080p24 properly.  I'll believe it when I see it in production.  It is one thing to show a difference on a $500k theater projection system, and very much another on a consumer TV at home with a variety of (mostly crappy) DSPs in the way.

I'd much, much, much rather see them spend time actually optimizing things properly for 1080p before trying to go for 4K in the home.  But, they want to try to sell HDTVs to people again, so they're going to keep trying things.  3D fizzled.  Ultrawidescreen was DOA.  So now they're pushing 4K.  We'll see.  I wouldn't hold my breath.  The consumer replacement cycle is around 10 years, and I think we're about 2-3 years into the period when the wave of upgrades from SD crested.

So, whatever they're pushing in 7-8 years might have a chance.  But it has to be "as better as" the SD > HD conversion is, not marginal.
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2013, 04:44:54 pm »

4:2:0 does an interleave
Are you sure about that? I thought 4:2:0 was quarter-res chroma, and 4:2:2 was half res chroma. (full vertical resolution, half horizontal resolution)

I'd much, much, much rather see them spend time actually optimizing things properly for 1080p before trying to go for 4K in the home.
What do you think needs changed from what we have today? A good Blu-ray encode seems about as good as 1080p is likely to get on the consumer side of things.

Ultrawidescreen was DOA.
I'm really hoping that this returns, because I desperately want an Ultrawide 4K OLED TV.

But it has to be "as better as" the SD > HD conversion is, not marginal.
I'm not sure that's actually possible now. I think most people are satisfied enough with how thin their TVs are, and things like contrast or color accuracy are of no interest to them. Maybe wide gamuts or high framerates will work, but a lot of people seem to be against high framerate content, and that's only been 48fps so far.
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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 05:34:46 pm »

Are you sure about that? I thought 4:2:0 was quarter-res chroma, and 4:2:2 was half res chroma. (full vertical resolution, half horizontal resolution)

I oversimplified a bit*, because it actually works at the block level and not at the size of full frames (the sampling pattern doesn't "know or care" about the full size of the image).  The difference between 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 is the shape of the sample (in 4:2:0 it is a 2x2 grid and in 4:1:1 it is a 1-pixel-tall line).  The net effect of 4:2:0 and 4:1:1 is that for every 4 pixels, only one is truly color accurate.  The difference is in the dispersion of those one pixels and how separated they are from the averaged pixels.

4:2:0 is marginally better than 4:1:1 (in some circumstances), but 4:2:2 is much better than that.  Here's a great resource that describes the different color sampling patterns in detail:
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/colorspace/

PS.  I don't have time now to comment on anything else, but I will try to later.

* Okay, I explained it very poorly.  The frames aren't interleaved at all, because each sample generates both a Chroma A and Chroma B channel "pixel".  But the sampling pattern does work out to effectively 1/4 res for 4:2:0, and if you think of it in "lines" that's how it works out (interleaved, but by line, not by frame).  Read the article I linked above and look at the sample patterns.  It isn't long, and it isn't quite as good as the examples I've seen in production classes (since those color patterns are completely non-real-world), but it is pretty good for a web resource.
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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2013, 07:19:46 pm »

I forgot, this page from RED is also very good.  They (also) don't go into the technical details of how the samples progress across the frame (which is sometimes important, especially for on-screen graphics) but it has nice animations that show how the different common patterns relate to each other.
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2013, 07:42:33 pm »

Rear projection televisions have always been quite unreliable, and many people were sold them without even knowing that you have to replace the lamp in them every few years. Sony's SXRDs did have a massive recall though, due to defective optical blocks causing green blobs to show up over the image.

Mine works fine, but I am still on the first lamp.  So it should die soon.   Of course, I said that 2 years ago.  Sony also had problems with LED TV's as well.  Sony Changers, etc.   The problem with Sony is more quality control.  

Well, a lot of people sit too far from their TVs, or choose displays which are too small. But the distance at which 4K provides a benefit is further than many people expect. On many AV sites there's a bogus chart I see posted all the time, which says you need to sit much closer than you actually do.

The chart is based off several years of studying the human eye.  So, it is not bogus.   Are you referring to this chart?  http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/   Well, if you plug in 70" then you get 4 feet, but I think his calculations is a bit wrong.  Sharp recommends 6 feet on their new 70 inch 4k TV.  





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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm »

What do you think needs changed from what we have today? A good Blu-ray encode seems about as good as 1080p is likely to get on the consumer side of things.

I disagree.  Only just over the past two years have hardware H264 decode blocks gotten truly competent, and even now, these are often limited to higher end GPUs and CPUs (the FPGA chips in TVs and set-top boxes are almost universally generations old).  Display technology has massive color accuracy improvements they could incorporate.

Plus, and perhaps more importantly, there has been a revolution in capture and post-production processes.  A few things have happened over the past few years:

1. The full frame DSLR used for "real production".  Suddenly, high quality, fast glass is cost effective even for television productions and lower-budget movies, and we have a way to capture it as well.  DSLRs (and DSLR-inspired tech in "pro" cameras) are used everywhere now in both big-budget and small screen productions.

2. Full high quality 2K production workflows, from end-to-end, only filtered across the "studio system" in the past 2-5 years.  A big problem has long been the data rates for capture.  We could build sensors (for lots of money) that would catch the light, but they'd dump out gigabits of data per second, and it is very difficult to get rugged, reliable, high-capacity, and removable storage that could capture at those kinds of data rates.  Another huge problem has been aliasing (and aliasing-removing algorithms, of course).

B-Roll sticks around for a long time.  Footage is constantly mish-mashed.  And, you're constantly looking at footage from a variety of sources, shot under different conditions and with different constraints.  It is only now that most editors are really starting to live in a world free of "bad capture" (well, bad capture due to technology anyway, says the cutter).

3. There have been dramatic improvements in rendering power and in software editing suite capabilities.  Now we have 4K edit suites in our workstations, and disks that can actually feed the data fast enough to matter.

It isn't that 4K doesn't matter.  It is that the 4K 4:4:4 (or, probably more commonly, 4:2:2) workflows are part of the system now, and they make better 1080p video.  The problem is that this stuff is expensive and has a long shelf life.  While the edit bay might have a nice system (or usually the visual effects artists), does the colorist?  Does the editor on his or her laptop?  Can we render it at sufficiently high quality?  Will the studio (after all of the artists who made the thing are long-gone) screw up the BluRay transfer anyway?

As this stuff filters out, and as the DSPs, scalers, and decoders in your computer and BluRay player get faster and smarter, yes, we will absolutely see an increase in 2K quality over time.  This will plateau, but I don't think it has yet.  Whereas, 4K is immature.  We're still at the point where $100k ARRI digital 4K cinema cameras can't record the content in RAW with media you actually might want to use on, say, a helicopter, and doesn't even have a sensor that can resolve full-4K in widescreen once you take into account the pixels needed for slop and the viewfinder and so on and so forth anyway.

Lower end cameras pushing the limits of what the sensor and glass can resolve and well...  It makes really nice 2K footage, is what it does.

I'm really hoping that this returns, because I desperately want an Ultrawide 4K OLED TV.

OLED has a lot of promise, if they can get saturation and the grid under control.  It is expensive, and difficult, to make good OLED displays.  You can make high resolution ones, and you can make bright ones, but making color accurate ones is tough.

Still, the black levels can't be beat, and the display tech has the capability to easily reproduce a wide gamut, so it is promising.  But doing it in production, with big displays, is hard.

Ultrawidescreen?

I don't know.  The whole idea of widescreen is already periphery.  But it doesn't matter... I really, really doubt we're going to see movement away from 16:9 anytime soon, en masse.  There's way too much momentum behind it, and ultrawidescreen isn't "better enough" to be worth replacing everything, yet again.

I'm not sure that's actually possible now. I think most people are satisfied enough with how thin their TVs are, and things like contrast or color accuracy are of no interest to them. Maybe wide gamuts or high framerates will work, but a lot of people seem to be against high framerate content, and that's only been 48fps so far.

Sure it is, but maybe not in the way you think.

Same reason BluRay never took off quite like DVD did (and why people still now buy and rent a ton of DVDs).  BluRay is better than DVD.  In a variety of ways.  But it isn't like the difference between VHS and DVD.  Because the difference between VHS and DVD was also about the fact you didn't have to rewind.  It was about chapters, and jumping directly into the part of the film you wanted to see.  The differences between tape and digital, weren't just quality, they were convenience.  And you don't get that again with the jump to BluRay.

But you do with the jump to Netflix/iTunes, in a way (but at much lower quality).  Clearly, though, the market has largely spoken.  Mark my words: there won't be another major optical disc based format.  There may very well be improvements to the current format over time, and some companies will certainly try to make some kind of 4K optical format, but it'll do even worse than BluRay in the end.

But hardware makers won't just sit still.  I do think we will see good quality 4K gear, and reasons to use it.  I'm just not convinced that it is here, and if I was picking, I'd vastly prefer improved color accuracy.  Once you get used to seeing the footage as it was shot, then the conversion to 4:2:0 just looks so flat, and then most of the TVs to an awful job displaying it, and gunk it up with all kinds of post-processing to hide their deficiencies.

But it is hard to sell, so who knows.

But I do know that getting content from an IP network is the future, and we are still so far behind having the data rates available to us that we need for even nice quality 2k content, much less 4K, in that realm.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2013, 11:12:45 pm »

Well, a lot of people sit too far from their TVs, or choose displays which are too small. But the distance at which 4K provides a benefit is further than many people expect. On many AV sites there's a bogus chart I see posted all the time, which says you need to sit much closer than you actually do.

The chart is based off several years of studying the human eye.  So, it is not bogus.   Are you referring to this chart?  http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/   Well, if you plug in 70" then you get 4 feet, but I think his calculations is a bit wrong.  Sharp recommends 6 feet on their new 70 inch 4k TV. 

The problem with those charts, and there is a big problem, is that they're measuring the wrong thing.

They're, effectively, measuring the eye's capability to resolve individual details (of text, actually) in isolation.  The goal of a large video display, for theater use anyway, is to trick the eye into thinking it is continuous tone.  You don't want to be able to resolve the individual pixels, you want them to be much smaller than your eye's ability to resolve the fine detail.  In other words, just because you can't read text at a certain size and distance, doesn't mean you don't see any difference between the letters at all.  You can perceive detail, even if you couldn't read text there.

There is also not a linear relationship between the details you are able to resolve at 1 foot than those you are able to resolve at 20 feet, or 60, or 300.

That said, I do think for most uses, you'd get much more bang for the buck in first going:

1. Bigger
2. More color accurate

The problems with 4K is that it slows both advances, in the name of resolution, that we don't yet have production capabilities to fully harness.  And, of course, the problem with #2 is all distribution and economies of scale.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2013, 11:22:23 pm »

My point though, is that it is not expensive to make a 4K television - they're only expensive just now because they're new, and that means they can get away with charging a premium price for them.

A tiled 4K display, true.  You can basically just glue 4 smaller 1080p screens together, after all.  But getting a bunch of separate pieces of LCD in production that all "match" color performance is actually pretty tough, and expensive.

So, making a good 4K display is expensive.

Wake me up when they have good 70-90" single-tile displays, thanks.
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Matt

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2013, 11:32:07 pm »

The problem with those charts, and there is a big problem, is that they're measuring the wrong thing.

I think there's a wow-factor in being immersed in the image and having your peripheral vision filled.

I sit 8 feet from a 9 foot screen.  I did this even when my projector was 720p.  I'd sit a little closer yet or make the screen bigger if my room had a way to handle it (but it doesn't).

A lot of charts say that's too close to sit because the resolution can't really support it.  I think that misses the cool effect on your body in being immersed in the picture.

With that said, I'm in line to buy a 4k projector when they're priced reasonably.  This is more interesting than 3d to me, after seeing how little I've used my 3d.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 11:47:37 pm »

I think there's a wow-factor in being immersed in the image and having your peripheral vision filled.

I sit 8 feet from a 9 foot screen.  I did this even when my projector was 720p.  I'd sit a little closer yet or make the screen bigger if my room had a way to handle it (but it doesn't).

A lot of charts say that's too close to sit because the resolution can't really support it.  I think that misses the cool effect on your body in being immersed in the picture.

Completely agree.  The optimal viewing angle is pretty close to 50 deg.  Maybe even a bit less.  That's what I'm saying.  Buy the biggest display you can reasonably fit into the space, well before you go for resolution.

And, a nice 4K projector is a completely different story.  If you have the space for it... Mmmm.  Tasty.  You just need a dark room, and that's impractical for most people.
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2013, 01:20:53 am »

I disagree.  Only just over the past two years have hardware H264 decode blocks gotten truly competent, and even now, these are often limited to higher end GPUs and CPUs (the FPGA chips in TVs and set-top boxes are almost universally generations old).  Display technology has massive color accuracy improvements they could incorporate.
I think you are mistaken with the H.264 decoding. With commercially produced content, any H.264 decoder should decode the image correctly.
With broadcast and other delivery methods where there's the potential for data loss, the quality of decoders varies in how they cope with missing data, but nothing on the market should have any trouble with H.264

Similarly, I wonder what you think needs improving with regard to color accuracy. It seems that you can buy relatively inexpensive displays now that have very high accuracy over the whole BT.709 gamut. I'm glad that SpectraCal finally implemented saturation measurements in CalMAN v5, because I was pushing them to do that for years, and now that it's in there, a lot of reviewers are using it and the manufacturers have started paying attention to more than just how 100% saturation looks.

1. The full frame DSLR used for "real production".  Suddenly, high quality, fast glass is cost effective even for television productions and lower-budget movies, and we have a way to capture it as well.  DSLRs (and DSLR-inspired tech in "pro" cameras) are used everywhere now in both big-budget and small screen productions.
Actually, DSLRs are typically a rather poor way to capture video. They have great sensors, but the process of creating (comparatively) low resolution video from them often has a lot of image quality problems.

OLED has a lot of promise, if they can get saturation and the grid under control.  It is expensive, and difficult, to make good OLED displays.  You can make high resolution ones, and you can make bright ones, but making color accurate ones is tough.
It seems like they're almost there with the first generation displays already. Phone OLEDs had these problems, but only because they were intended for use in phones.

Ultrawidescreen?

I don't know.  The whole idea of widescreen is already periphery.  But it doesn't matter... I really, really doubt we're going to see movement away from 16:9 anytime soon, en masse.  There's way too much momentum behind it, and ultrawidescreen isn't "better enough" to be worth replacing everything, yet again.
Just about all of my film library is "ultrawide" and most of my TV library is 4:3. I have little interest in 16:9 as a format. In many ways I'd actually prefer we still had 4:3 rather than 16:9 today. (but I would prefer ultrawide over that)

But you do with the jump to Netflix/iTunes, in a way (but at much lower quality).  Clearly, though, the market has largely spoken.  Mark my words: there won't be another major optical disc based format.  There may very well be improvements to the current format over time, and some companies will certainly try to make some kind of 4K optical format, but it'll do even worse than BluRay in the end.
What I'm hoping, is that regular Blu-ray drives can read the first layer of a BDXL disc. That way you can buy a disc which has an H.264 1080p encode on the first layer, and H.265 4K on the other three. Then they can just replace regular Blu-ray discs without requiring everyone to buy new players - that's the only way I see a new physical format taking off.

From what I'm hearing, that's not going to be the case, and we will have a new format that's not under the Blu-ray branding.

But hardware makers won't just sit still.  I do think we will see good quality 4K gear, and reasons to use it.  I'm just not convinced that it is here, and if I was picking, I'd vastly prefer improved color accuracy.  Once you get used to seeing the footage as it was shot, then the conversion to 4:2:0 just looks so flat, and then most of the TVs to an awful job displaying it, and gunk it up with all kinds of post-processing to hide their deficiencies.
Are you sure you're not talking about color gamut rather than color accuracy? Most displays are rather accurate these days, and 4:2:0 chroma resolution should have little impact on video quality. (it's a big problem with computers/games though)

You don't want to be able to resolve the individual pixels, you want them to be much smaller than your eye's ability to resolve the fine detail.  In other words, just because you can't read text at a certain size and distance, doesn't mean you don't see any difference between the letters at all.  You can perceive detail, even if you couldn't read text there.
Thanks, I've been saying this for a long time. The chart assumes that the optimal viewing distance is where you can distinctly make out individual pixels - that's far from optimal. Optimal is when you can no longer make out the pixels that make up the image.

This is part of the reason 4K displays improve the quality of lower resolution content - it may not improve the source quality, but removes the "screen door" over the image.

A tiled 4K display, true.  You can basically just glue 4 smaller 1080p screens together, after all.  But getting a bunch of separate pieces of LCD in production that all "match" color performance is actually pretty tough, and expensive.

So, making a good 4K display is expensive.
I'm fairly sure those displays are not tiled. The issue with the Sharp/ASUS monitors on PC is not that there are separate panels, it's that the circuitry driving the panels was not fast enough for a 4K display, so they halve the bandwidth by driving the left and right halves of the same panel off separate controllers.
 
I was also under the impression that this problem was solved almost immediately by updates from both Nvidia and AMD.

With that said, I'm in line to buy a 4k projector when they're priced reasonably.  This is more interesting than 3d to me, after seeing how little I've used my 3d.
I think 3D is really interesting with gaming, but I have no interest in 3D movies. Half the time the perspective is all wrong for my vision, and it just never looked that good. 3D gaming is really immersive when done well. The problem is that all the 3DTVs and 3D projectors on the market are terrible.

When we get 3D displays that can present a stable high resolution image, then it becomes interesting again.

Completely agree.  The optimal viewing angle is pretty close to 50 deg.  Maybe even a bit less.
50 degrees feels about right for me, maybe a little higher even.

And, a nice 4K projector is a completely different story.  If you have the space for it... Mmmm.  Tasty.  You just need a dark room, and that's impractical for most people.
I keep going back and forth on projectors. I had so much fun with a $500 entry-level DLP projector with an 854x480 resolution years ago. It was projected onto a flat wall and calibrated, and while the room was not perfectly blacked out, it still presented a very nice image and was just really enjoyable to watch.

After that experience I went all out, bought a high-end high-contrast three-chip projector, did a complete room treatment; blacked out, everything covered in velvet, projecting onto a proper unity-gain screen, perfectly calibrated. And that was stunning. Being in a room with a massive projected image where you're in a totally black space and can't even see the walls is something else.

I've moved a couple of times since then, and am back to using televisions now, rather than projectors. And honestly, I don't know if I would do it again. As good as that image was, you always find ways to pick it apart when you are striving for perfection, and no-one wanted to be in that room unless a film was playing. It was quite antisocial really. Honestly, I think I'd rather have a really nice television (an ultrawide OLED ideally...) and maybe get another cheap fun DLP again. Maybe not something quite so cheap now, but cheap enough that I can just enjoy it for what it is, rather than trying to make things perfect.
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2013, 02:38:51 pm »

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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2013, 02:58:00 pm »

With that said, I'm in line to buy a 4k projector when they're priced reasonably.  This is more interesting than 3d to me, after seeing how little I've used my 3d.

Have you seen the screen cost from Stewart?   http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/materials/3d/silver5D_residential.html

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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2013, 03:10:51 pm »

This is one of the Media technologies in UHDTV.   Primary it will be for storage, but I see it as the next gen media for UHDTV1 and UHDHTV2.   

http://www.infostor.com/blogs_new/henry_newman/stranger-than-fiction-hitachi-discusses-holographic-storage.html

http://www.storageconference.org/2013/Presentations/Wood.pdf Chart 11 shows the next gen.
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mojave

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2013, 03:17:08 pm »

And, a nice 4K projector is a completely different story.  If you have the space for it... Mmmm.  Tasty.  You just need a dark room, and that's impractical for most people.
My living room has 6 windows, a door, a transom, and opens to the kitchen. In about 5-10 minutes I can black out all windows, lower my retractable 120" acoustically transparent screen, hang the black side screenwall panels, and blackout the ceiling with lycra velvet. It takes a little manual work but looks awesome. Of course at this time of year I don't have to black out much.  :) I sit about 10' away. I agree with Matt about having your peripheral vision filled.
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Daydream

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2013, 11:40:43 pm »

And 4K televisions are not $5000 - they start at $700 now.

$519.99 right now. I wonder if this washes away everything else that was said in this thread so far :) :).
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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2013, 12:14:10 am »

$519.99 right now. I wonder if this washes away everything else that was said in this thread so far :) :).

Not really changes much, since those TVs are pretty bad.
Hopefully the good makes and models will drop in price over the next year.

Personally I'll probably also wait for OLED, but that'll take a few more years.
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2013, 12:35:44 pm »

Not really changes much, since those TVs are pretty bad.
Are they? I've seen a lot of interest from PC users, as the TV not only has 4K resolution (which is all some people care about) but it will also do 1080p at 120Hz.

It's certainly not a TV I would buy, but it still proves that you can offer 4K resolution at considerably less than $5000.
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2013, 04:50:55 pm »

Are they? I've seen a lot of interest from PC users, as the TV not only has 4K resolution (which is all some people care about) but it will also do 1080p at 120Hz.

It's certainly not a TV I would buy, but it still proves that you can offer 4K resolution at considerably less than $5000.

So if the cost is so cheap, then explain the reason behind Mitsubishi leaving the projector and LCD market.   http://www.avnetwork.com/av-technology/0002/mitsubishi-exits-projector-market--slowly/91959
I was hoping to see Laser 4k Projector from Mitsubishi, but it never materialize now.  I wonder if this will canned as well.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glJyEFkmV_0
Panasonic, Sharp, and Sony are all have record losses, so how can these companies survive in the market?  

Panasonic has developed a new 4k TV LCD with Display Port and HDMI 2.0 and it is 65".  Currently, this is only model with Display Port.  http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-L65WT600  (Hopefully, we see more 4k TV's with display Port.)
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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2013, 10:39:19 am »

Are they? I've seen a lot of interest from PC users, as the TV not only has 4K resolution (which is all some people care about) but it will also do 1080p at 120Hz.

There was a test of cheap 4K TVs in a german tech magazine just recently, and their conclusion was that a high-end 1080p TV looks better, and the panel had considerable issues still.
I forgot which TV they tested specifically.

Its really the same as buying a $150 1080p TV, you just don't get much for your money.

If the high prices are warranted on the actual brand TVs, probably not entirely, but a 4K TV is not only a better panel, all the processing components also need to be upgraded.
Considering the lack of content and HDMI 2.0 still being rolled out only slowly, there is still plenty time for new models to appear in 2014 and prices to reach more sensible areas.

In any case, if you can really produce a quality 4K TV for such cheap prices and everyone starts buying these cheap brands, Sony/LG/etc will be forced to come down in price as well, so i suppose its good no matter what.
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glynor

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2013, 12:41:15 pm »

Considering the lack of content and HDMI 2.0 still being rolled out only slowly, there is still plenty time for new models to appear in 2014 and prices to reach more sensible areas.

Yep.

I suspect anyone buying one of these cheap displays that is hoping to use it as a computer monitor is going to be sorely disappointed.  30Hz does not a good monitor make, and even if some of the ones out now support HDMI 2.0, none of your video cards do, so you'll still be stuck (unless, of course, they put a DisplayPort on those TVs, but I bet you the vast majority of the cheap ones don't have them).
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6233638

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2013, 04:49:40 pm »

So if the cost is so cheap, then explain the reason behind Mitsubishi leaving the projector and LCD market.
...
Panasonic, Sharp, and Sony are all have record losses, so how can these companies survive in the market?
The display market has been in trouble for years.

The short version is that they saw massive surges in sales from people switching from their old CRTs to flat panels, and expected that growth to be sustainable with things like 1080p, 3D, 4K, OLED etc. when it is clearly not going to be.
Flat panel sales were good once they hit a certain price point, because people could justify replacing their perfectly functional, but bulky 4:3 CRTs with a shiny new widescreen flat panel that was only a couple of inches deep. Going from a couple of inches deep to a few millimeters thick, increased resolution, or better motion handling, is not going to bring a new surge in sales like that.
 
And with the sudden surge in sales they saw when they hit a point that they went from niche high-end products to mainstream, manufacturers went crazy and kept trying to undercut each other to grab some of the new money coming in, making up for low profit margins with volume, which has ended up devaluing their products, so that what may have actually be a reasonable price for a 4K display at one point, or a new high-end technology like OLED, now looks extremely overpriced. I remember when I paid $3400 for a 32" LCD back in 2006, when a friend paid about $7000 for his 32" Plasma a couple of years before that.
 
With the state of the economy, people don't value high end products or "good brands" any more so the Japanese companies like Sony and Panasonic have been struggling to keep up with the Korean competition from LG and Samsung, who are in turn, going to have difficulty keeping up with the Chinese brands entering the market.

Unless there's a very obvious reason for it, why would Joe Public spend $5000 on a Sony 4K TV rather than a $500 Seiki? On paper they seem like very similar displays.
That's maybe an extreme example, but I think we will see higher-end Chinese displays that will swallow up the market. Rather than a cheap $500 display with obvious flaws, make a good $1500 one, and it will be tougher for companies like Sony to compete.

I suspect anyone buying one of these cheap displays that is hoping to use it as a computer monitor is going to be sorely disappointed.  30Hz does not a good monitor make, and even if some of the ones out now support HDMI 2.0, none of your video cards do, so you'll still be stuck (unless, of course, they put a DisplayPort on those TVs, but I bet you the vast majority of the cheap ones don't have them).
If nothing else, it's the largest 120Hz 1080p display available right now, and apparently the 65" model will do 4K at 60Hz.

I agree that it's probably not a display I would want, but if people know what to expect, it's definitely good value to have that many pixels for such a low price. It really depends what your usage is. Some people just need high resolutions over anything else.
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2013, 06:06:50 pm »

Yep.

I suspect anyone buying one of these cheap displays that is hoping to use it as a computer monitor is going to be sorely disappointed.  30Hz does not a good monitor make, and even if some of the ones out now support HDMI 2.0, none of your video cards do, so you'll still be stuck (unless, of course, they put a DisplayPort on those TVs, but I bet you the vast majority of the cheap ones don't have them).

The Chinese 4k TV's don't have display port according to http://www.displayport.org/products-database/ The only 4k TV set is the panasonic, that I listed above.   The only 4k computer monitor that I saw on DisplayPort.org is the Sharp, and it has DisplayPort.   Sharp is making them for Asus and Dell.  Regardless, if you plan to buy a new 4k TV set, then you want HDMI 2.0 or DisplayPort.  I haven't researched the HDMI 2.0 spec, but I rather the 4K TV manufacturers include DisplayPort 1.2.   
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Hendrik

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2013, 03:21:10 am »

HDMI 2.0 has similar bandwidth to DP 1.2, so it can do 4K at 60Hz or 1080p at 120 Hz easily.
Not sure DP is really going to be big on new TVs. AV Receivers also are usually limited to HDMI, so if you want a DP connection you also need another connection to your AVR for audio, and sadly there is no pure digital audio connection with all the fancy features (8 channel audio up to 192/24, and HD bitstreaming).
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2013, 01:30:42 pm »

HDMI 2.0 has similar bandwidth to DP 1.2, so it can do 4K at 60Hz or 1080p at 120 Hz easily.

Actually, the HDMI 2.0 can do 4k at 120fps according to this video.  It is briefing, but around 7:48 you see the slide on 4k at 120fps.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0JsC2Tk4Sw  

Not sure DP is really going to be big on new TVs. AV Receivers also are usually limited to HDMI, so if you want a DP connection you also need another connection to your AVR for audio, and sadly there is no pure digital audio connection with all the fancy features (8 channel audio up to 192/24, and HD bitstreaming).

Your big unknown right is Apple!   There has been reports that new 4k TV panel has thunderbolt on it, which is based on DisplayPort technology.  The biggest problem with HDMI has been switching.   A friend of mine does 100K to 450K home automation theater installations.  He has been doing 4k Installs since 2011, but the biggest problem has been the HDMI matrix switch.  Distance is another factor.  One of his installs was with a Key Digital HDMI switch and it had problems as well.  The question does HDMI 2.0 fix the HDMI Matrix switch?    HDMI 2.0 is not a change in cables, as with Thunderbolt now allows for optical cables.  

The new AVR receivers are all made in China now.   I personally own a Denon AVR-5308 and my currrent setup is 7.1, but I could add 2 more speakers and 2 other subs.  So it be a 9.3 speaker setup.  I love my Denon, since it was one of the last made in Japan.  I suspect once that audio gets resolved, then I have to use A/V Processor and Amp setup.  Dolby Atmos hasn't announced at home theater setup.
It is the media optical solution, that is why there hasn't been any change in audio.  
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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2013, 01:54:47 am »

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Sparks67

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Re: 4K TV's
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2013, 06:43:37 am »

This has been posted on several sites (Rumour), but AUO is going to build Apple's Thunderbolt 2 - 4k Display Panel for Mac Pro (27" and 32")
http://www.macrumors.com/2013/11/26/new-display-panels-from-auo-spark-speculation-of-4k-apple-displays/

Personally, I plan to wait to at least 2015 for a 4k TV, but I would love to have lower cost 4k quality Thunderbolt 2 computer monitors. 
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