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[JustinChase]

my new laptop came with Windows 8, and I upgraded immediately to 8.1.  I tried to like it, I tried to live with it, but I ended up wiping the drive and installing Windows 7.  I don't get he desktop/metro thing.  Why have to versions?  The apps forced me to scroll 3-4 screens to see them all, my sort selection didn't persist a restart, every time I moved my mouse near an edge or corner I got bars popping up, and I had to right-click to use the start menu.  I could never get the HTC drivers to work in Windows 8 reliably, which was the final straw.  In the end I didn't see any benefit to me, and lots of annoyances.  Sure, i suppose I could have taken the time to find solutions to all these things, but what's the point?  Windows 7 still works fine, and I really like it much better.

In the process of wiping to install Windows 7, I created a partition for ubuntu, so see what it was like.  I generally like it, but it's still pretty foreign.  I tried to 'install' a couple of apps, and there was some command line (terminal) steps needed to finish, which will take some time getting used to.  I needed a Linux install to run an HTC phone firmware unlocking program, but kept the partition and will continue to play with/use Linux for a while and see if I can learn some stuff.

I'm not sure Linux is quite ready for full time use, but it's far more polished than last time I installed/used it.

Good luck with your switch, I hope it works good for you.

[Hendrik]

I use 8.1 these days, the only thing I do is install a stand-alone Start Menu application. Not necessarily because I absolutely hate the start screen, its more because I have a 30" screen and the start screen takes over the whole thing and flashes in my face.
Otherwise it really isn't all that different in Desktop mode, and some of the underlying improvements are quite nice.

[glynor]

I'm using 8.1 everywhere now except for my work machines.  It's okay.  Some things annoy me about it and some things are nice.  They fixed enough that I was willing to switch from Windows 7 finally.

I don't actually mind the Start Screen now at all.  The button itself is, to me, a huge improvement.  I still hate the Charms bar (and hope they kill that or heavily tweak it next year), and I don't use really any of the Metro applications on my desktop (sometimes the weather and Bing News apps, but they're also pretty buggy).  Display Fusion makes it tolerable with multiple monitors, combined with the improvements Microsoft made themselves.

I don't use Start8 or any of the "put back the Start Menu" tools, though I do boot directly to the desktop.

But all-in-all it is pretty good.  Not "great" and a "no brainer" compared to Windows 7 (like 7 was to Vista), but pretty good.

[6233638]

I don't get he desktop/metro thing.  Why have to versions?

I think this is part of the problem. If people just saw the Start Screen as an app launcher, rather than a separate tablet OS destined to ruin computing and destroy the mouse, I think they'd be happier with it.

The apps forced me to scroll 3-4 screens to see them all, my sort selection didn't persist a restart

I agree, the "all apps" view is still lacking when you're trying to use it with a keyboard and mouse - at least if you don't manually tidy things up. (I remove all the help/website/uninstall/etc. links) There should be a way to collapse folders or it should present them better, because it's just a big mess of icons otherwise.
But I never used the start menu to display "all programs" on Windows 7, and I don't on Windows 8 either - if it's not a pinned application, I use search to launch it.
And if you haven't already, I find that disabling the animations makes it a lot easier to get along with. (but I've been doing that in Windows for years)

every time I moved my mouse near an edge or corner I got bars popping up

There are options to minimize this, and I think it can be disabled via the registry. (or just use something like Start8)

I still hate the Charms bar (and hope they kill that or heavily tweak it next year)

The thing is, on a tablet, the Charms Bar is insanely powerful compared to anything iOS or (I believe) Android currently offers. With "when I point to the upper-right corner, show the charms menu" disabled, I rarely ever find that it gets in the way. The only way to access it then is the lower right corner, rather than seemingly the whole right side of the screen.

I don't use really any of the Metro applications on my desktop (sometimes the weather and Bing News apps, but they're also pretty buggy)

Personally, I didn't have a problem with the option to run Metro apps being there for a year before I even used it. Even if the experience is not yet ideal, the fact that I can run the tablet version of an app which has no desktop equivalent, seems like a big deal to me, especially as someone that is getting tired of all the crazy workarounds to actually get a lot of things done on iOS and is looking to switch to another platform.

[rjm]

There is a very basic aspect of metro that I do not get.

I purchased an expensive 27" 2560x1440 monitor because I want multiple apps on the screen at the same time.

It seems with metro that no matter how trivial the app it thinks it is entitled to use 100% of my screen.

I get this approach on a small screen tablet, but not on my desktop.

This seems to be such a huge foundational blunder that I must be missing something basic. Maybe there is some secret keyboard shortcut that puts the metro app into a small window?

Please enlighten me.

[6233638]

There is a very basic aspect of metro that I do not get.
I purchased an expensive 27" 2560x1440 monitor because I want multiple apps on the screen at the same time.
It seems with metro that no matter how trivial the app it thinks it is entitled to use 100% of my screen.

You should be able to have four or five apps open at once on a 2560x1440 display, as Metro apps can be shrunk down to 500px wide. (probably four if you account for the dividers)
You can't run them on the desktop though - at least not without third party utilities.
 
Metro is an addition to the desktop though, rather than trying to replace it - though it does work best on tablets and large displays.
Something like Media Center's Theater View would be good as a Metro app, but probably not the standard view.

[gvanbrunt]

I'm of the same view as others here that I don't get the hate of Win 8. In my eyes it's win 7 AND metro apps. At work I hear people complaining about it all the time and I just tell them: "stop using metro apps" when they are using a desktop and mouse. I also tell them the start screen IS the start menu. Suddenly it's like a light goes off and they find it usable.

It seems everyone is confused that it is indented to be two separate OS's in one. And that "Metro" is not meant to replace desktop apps. If MS had done a better job of educating people after install, they might have had a more receptive audience. I think MS is really really bad at that kind of thing while Apple is really good at it... usually. Apple sells and educates on its innovations. MS make commercials with people flying around for Win Vista and clicking keyboards together while doing a back flip and eating lunch for Surface. MS marketing sucks. Apple uses it to show off how to use stuff. I'm not really sure what MS is does with it. Some people are getting paid a lot of money for crap.

[rjm]

I'm of the same view as others here that I don't get the hate of Win 8. In my eyes it's win 7 AND metro apps. At work I hear people complaining about it all the time and I just tell them: "stop using metro apps" when they are using a desktop and mouse. I also tell them the start screen IS the start menu. Suddenly it's like a light goes off and they find it usable.

It seems everyone is confused that it is indented to be two separate OS's in one. And that "Metro" is not meant to replace desktop apps.

ahhh, light starting to turn on... thanks

So when I accidentally start some trivial metro app that fills my 2560x1440 screen with mostly a solid wall of some bright gaudy color, how do I get out of it?

Escape does not work. I sometimes remember that alt-F4 kills an app, but when I forget I get really angry really fast.

[InflatableMouse]

I don't hate win8 or win8.1 either, in case anybody thought I did . I can get frustrated over certain things for sure, but in general I think its a very solid OS. My work laptop is running Windows 8 so I still have to work with it every day.

I also don't think Metro is a failure or even a bad concept either. I think its a great concept that can work fantastic - But it simply wasn't meant for a desktop with a mouse/keyboard! The fact that people can learn to work with it doesn't change that fact. I can learn to use a win7 desktop with startmenu on a 10" touchscreen. Pinch to zoom in and out and I can operate all the small controls and menu's. Does that make a desktop suitable for use with a touchscreen or as a tablet OS? Of course not!

I had the opportunity to work with a 24" touchscreen and Win8 during a Microsoft training and I thought it was great.

In my opinion what they should have done is make the Metro interface a complete replacement for the desktop. They had to think about how to run non-metro apps seamlessly in a Metro environment, create a complete control panel replacement for all settings, a File Explorer, everything. Consider power users, multitasking with seamless switching between metro and non-metro applications so that when you're in Metro, you'll never NEED a desktop anymore. You wouldn't long for the desktop nor would you miss it. In notime, you would forget the desktop ever existed. The Install could detect if you're running on a device with touchscreen and default to Metro. Otherwise, default to a desktop with start MENU and run Metro apps in a window on the desktop (see ModernMix). And afterwards, give people a choice to switch, but not this half baked and flawed implementation of 2 crippled environments.

There is absolutely no reason for MS to force desktop users into this Metro deal at all. If Metro had just worked, if they had given it that extra bit of thought, users with a touchscreen would want to use Metro, they wouldn't have it any other way and even many desktop users might make the switch, because it works and is complete. People would want to use it and it would become a natural success. This is what I mean when I said they want to skip a step in the evolution. They don't want to wait for natural success they abuse their market domination to force success.

[imugli]

ahhh, light starting to turn on... thanks

So when I accidentally start some trivial metro app that fills my 2560x1440 screen with mostly a solid wall of some bright gaudy color, how do I get out of it?

Escape does not work. I sometimes remember that alt-F4 kills an app, but when I forget I get really angry really fast.

Don't you drag down from the top of the screen and it closes it?

[InflatableMouse]

That minimizes it, it doesn't quit or close the program.

[gvanbrunt]

So when I accidentally start some trivial metro app that fills my 2560x1440 screen with mostly a solid wall of some bright gaudy color, how do I get out of it?

That depends on if you are using keyboard or mouse. With keyboard you can alt -tab to go to other applications if open. Alt-F4 to close the app. (all the same as Win 7). You can also hit the windows key and bring up the smart screen and select the desktop or a new app.

With a mouse you go to the top left corner and pause. You should get a list of windows you can switch to. Or you can do the same thing in the top right and then select the "windows flag" to get to the smart screen and you have the same options mentioned with the keyboard.

One thing you really need to do to get the most of Win 8, is learn to use the smart screen. By this I mean customizing it, and learning to pin and unpin apps from the smart screen and task bar. Organizing them in groups and putting titles on them. Win 8.1 has some more options here so it is worth the upgrade.

[rjm]

That depends on if you are using keyboard or mouse. With keyboard you can alt -tab to go to other applications if open. Alt-F4 to close the app. (all the same as Win 7). You can also hit the windows key and bring up the smart screen and select the desktop or a new app.

With a mouse you go to the top left corner and pause. You should get a list of windows you can switch to. Or you can do the same thing in the top right and then select the "windows flag" to get to the smart screen and you have the same options mentioned with the keyboard.

One thing you really need to do to get the most of Win 8, is learn to use the smart screen. By this I mean customizing it, and learning to pin and unpin apps from the smart screen and task bar. Organizing them in groups and putting titles on them. Win 8.1 has some more options here so it is worth the upgrade.

Thanks kindly.

When I am finished with an app I prefer to terminate it rather than leaving it running in a hidden window. It seems that alt-F4 is the only way to kill an application. Thats ok for me but for most this is very very geeky. They should have copied the Windows desktop idea and put an X in the top right corner that you could click on or touch.

[glynor]

That minimizes it, it doesn't quit or close the program.

It used to close them.  They changed it in 8.1.

It does reset the app state though, so for metro, this is very similar to quitting.  Basically, the iOS model...

Mostly, you can ignore them and just go back to start.  Don't worry about closing metro apps.  Except when they crash or get stuck, which seems to happen to Bing News and Weather all the time, and then you have to reset them to get them working again.

[bytestar]

You can close an app completely in Windows 8.1 in a New Way

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/how-close-app

To completely stop all processes associated with an app, drag the app to the bottom of the screen, and hold it there until the app flips over.

[glynor]

The thing is, on a tablet, the Charms Bar is insanely powerful compared to anything iOS or (I believe) Android currently offers. With "when I point to the upper-right corner, show the charms menu" disabled, I rarely ever find that it gets in the way. The only way to access it then is the lower right corner, rather than seemingly the whole right side of the screen.

I'm not sure what "power" you're referring to, but the Charms Bar is annoying in a whole host of ways.  Here are just a few:

1. No hidden-by-default UI.  Ever.  Period.  They are completely and utterly unsupportable.  Gestures are fine for power users, but there MUST be a way to visually get to all essential UI elements, or most users won't ever find them (or won't know how they did when they do).  This would be simple to fix... It just needs a button, like the Start button in 8.1.  I think a pull-tab from the edge of the screen, or a button in the bottom corner (replacing the show desktop button, perhaps) would do it.

2. The only really useful feature of the Charms Bar from Windows 8 is now gone: The in-app search.  It was clunky, didn't work on the desktop right, and probably confused people, but now it has been abandoned and the Charms Bar search does essentially the same thing as typing-to-search on the Start Screen.

3. The Share Charm is a joke.  I think Peter Bright said it well:

Desktop apps can't share or be share targets. Desktop apps don't know about devices, and don't store their settings behind the Settings charm.

This makes a mix-and-match approach deeply flawed. I can't even send an e-mail via Outlook from the Metro world. Outlook. Probably one of the most important business applications of all time, and Metro doesn't even know it exists.

We get the same problem in reverse, too. If you use the Metro Mail app as your e-mail client, you might expect that you could right-click a file in Explorer, and then go to Send to, Mail Recipient, and for this to create a mail in the Mail app. You might expect that, but it won't work. Send to Mail Recipient can only use desktop Mail apps. How about sending someone a URL to a webpage from within the desktop Internet Explorer using the Share charm? Nope, not an option; desktop Internet Explorer can't send to the Share charm. Nothing on the desktop can.

I've never once used the Share charm for anything, even from within Metro apps.  It is completely pointless as it is currently used on a Desktop computer, and I'd guess only marginally more useful on a RT-only device.  It could be very good (Contracts is awesome), but app support is very inconsistent, and without integrating Desktop apps, it is a joke.

4. You activate it from the corners, but it slides out from the side.  They've, at least, acknowledged this in 8.1 and made it "shift" lower or higher depending on where you activate it, but it is still a terrible UI and difficult semantically to remember.  Again, you and I get it, my mom will never remember (or not for a long time, and not without months of frustration).

5. In-app Settings.  These have been, essentially, a failure.  First off, since Desktop applications can't use them, it is useless (and confusing) when you are in Desktop mode.  Even within Metro apps, there seems to be no adherence to the system as designed.  Many apps, even Microsoft first-party apps, have some kind of weird mixture between storing some settings in the Settings Charm, and some within the UI of the app itself (Bing Maps, I'm looking at you).  But, the vast majority of third-party Metro apps store essentially no useful settings in the Settings Charm.  In the vast majority of the Metro apps I've tried, the only things in there are the things Windows provides by itself (Permissions, About, Feedback, and Rate & Review).  Apps store their settings in a variety of different places (usually somewhere under the similarly-hidden right-click UI thing).  But then, sometimes there is essential stuff in there.  I never know where to go to find the setting or option I want in Metro.  Never.

6. Devices Charm is oddball.  Some stuff is in the Metro control panel, some stuff is in the Desktop Control Panel, some stuff is in the Devices charm, and some stuff is in My Computer.  Some metro apps require you to go here to Print, others have the function built-in.  I guess if I was actually willing to use the terrible built-in media apps, then I might use the Send-To features of this charm, but they're terrible so I won't.

On a Desktop PC, basically the only things I use the charms bar for are:

A. Shutting down and rebooting.
B. Pulling up the root of the control panel, or the PC Settings Metro control panel.
C. Pulling up the on-screen keyboard on my HTPC from within Metro, which is a clunky way to access it.

Again, none of this is unfixable (though I think the appears from the center, activated from the corner, issue may require a rethink at Microsoft).  If you could somehow live in a Metro-only world, and they put some on-screen cue for it, it wouldn't be as bad, but living in a Metro-only world is terrible and the other problems persist.

[6233638]

So when I accidentally start some trivial metro app that fills my 2560x1440 screen with mostly a solid wall of some bright gaudy color, how do I get out of it?
Escape does not work. I sometimes remember that alt-F4 kills an app, but when I forget I get really angry really fast.

Hit the windows key to exit an app. (Win+D to go straight to the desktop)
You can also drag from the top of the screen to the bottom to close it (or the left/right to snap it to one side)
Mousing over the upper left corner opens the app switcher.

When I am finished with an app I prefer to terminate it rather than leaving it running in a hidden window. It seems that alt-F4 is the only way to kill an application. Thats ok for me but for most this is very very geeky. They should have copied the Windows desktop idea and put an X in the top right corner that you could click on or touch.

Metro apps hibernate (stop using resources) when they are in the background. There's no need to quit them.
I suppose I'm more used to this because OS X and iOS have done the same thing for years. (though OS X only added hibernation last year with 10.8)

In my opinion what they should have done is make the Metro interface a complete replacement for the desktop. They had to think about how to run non-metro apps seamlessly in a Metro environment, create a complete control panel replacement for all settings, a File Explorer, everything. Consider power users, multitasking with seamless switching between metro and non-metro applications so that when you're in Metro, you'll never NEED a desktop anymore. You wouldn't long for the desktop nor would you miss it. In notime, you would forget the desktop ever existed. The Install could detect if you're running on a device with touchscreen and default to Metro. Otherwise, default to a desktop with start MENU and run Metro apps in a window on the desktop (see ModernMix). And afterwards, give people a choice to switch, but not this half baked and flawed implementation of 2 crippled environments.

I'm not sure that you realize it, but Metro is a complete rewrite of everything so that it will run on ARM as well as x86, and building two entirely separate operating systems would be disastrous. That's exactly what Apple has done with OS X and iOS, and now that we're in year six, there are all kinds of "hacks" and workarounds to get apps talking with each other on both platforms. I know a lot of people with iPads that were happy with them when they were introduced, but are now getting frustrated that all Apple has done is reskin the OS rather than improve integration with OS X or expand its functionality.
There's still nothing like a file manager on iOS and it doesn't even support multitasking. It may be a bit less elegant right now, but Microsoft is years ahead of Apple in integrating the two experiences.
 
If you buy an app on iOS you have to buy it again on OSX , even if it's functionally identical - and that assumes there even is a desktop version of the app. I know I keep bringing it up, but with Flipboard there is no desktop app - but on Windows 8, I can run it on my desktop machine without the developers building separate apps. It's not ideal - I haven't figured out a way to get links to open in the desktop rather than the Metro browser, but that's a minor issue compared to not being able to run it at all.

I had to buy a separate copy of Reeder for my Mac, iPad, and iPod. I think that was probably $35 or so instead of buying a single $5 app.
And then when Google shut down their Reader service five months ago, which Reeder used as its back-end, they just discontinued the desktop/iPad app, and released a new iPod/iPhone app for people to buy which used Feedly instead. That app was eventually updated to have iPad support (rather than being two separate apps) but there's still no sign of a desktop app.

There is absolutely no reason for MS to force desktop users into this Metro deal at all.

Aside from the Start Screen, you never have to use the Metro interface on a desktop machine. It's not being forced on anyone.

This is what I mean when I said they want to skip a step in the evolution. They don't want to wait for natural success they abuse their market domination to force success.

And what exactly is the "natural evolution" you see? Having completely separate operating systems for ARM than x86 seems like a terrible idea to me, and that's the way Apple appears to be heading with their claims of "desktop performance" from their new A7 chip. Apple has already shown that they're happy to discard "legacy" applications many times over. Many people are speculating that they will release an arm-based MacBook at some point, with no support for x86 applications.

1. No hidden-by-default UI.  Ever.  Period.  They are completely and utterly unsupportable.  Gestures are fine for power users, but there MUST be a way to visually get to all essential UI elements, or most users won't ever find them (or won't know how they did when they do).  This would be simple to fix... It just needs a button, like the Start button in 8.1.  I think a pull-tab from the edge of the screen, or a button in the bottom corner (replacing the show desktop button, perhaps) would do it.

I agree with you on principle... but everyone else is doing it too. I can't think of a tablet OS that doesn't have functionality based around swiping from the edge of the screen. And people that actually use Windows 8 tablets are especially used to this, because app switching is handled by swiping in from the left, and multitasking is handled by swiping down from the top.

3. The Share Charm is a joke.  I think Peter Bright said it well:
I've never once used the Share charm for anything, even from within Metro apps.  It is completely pointless as it is currently used on a Desktop computer, and I'd guess only marginally more useful on a RT-only device.  It could be very good (Contracts is awesome), but app support is very inconsistent, and without integrating Desktop apps, it is a joke.

The charms menu is basically a tablet-only feature, it's powerful relative to what other tablets operating systems offering. On the desktop you have easier ways to share data between applications. (p.s. your article is from the launch of Windows 8)

4. You activate it from the corners, but it slides out from the side.  They've, at least, acknowledged this in 8.1 and made it "shift" lower or higher depending on where you activate it, but it is still a terrible UI and difficult semantically to remember.  Again, you and I get it, my mom will never remember (or not for a long time, and not without months of frustration).

I agree that the charms UI is somewhat awkward when you are using a mouse - that interface is really designed for touch devices. (touchscreens, trackpads, and touch mice)

5. In-app Settings.  These have been, essentially, a failure.  First off, since Desktop applications can't use them, it is useless (and confusing) when you are in Desktop mode.

Metro settings for Metro apps, Desktop settings for Desktop apps. Is that really so confusing?
If they moved desktop settings into the Metro UI, then you would really see people complaining about it. They're really a lot more separate than some people would like you to believe.

Even within Metro apps, there seems to be no adherence to the system as designed.  Many apps, even Microsoft first-party apps, have some kind of weird mixture between storing some settings in the Settings Charm, and some within the UI of the app itself (Bing Maps, I'm looking at you).

Well you have the same situation everywhere in the tablet market. On iOS most apps have now switched to using the app itself for the settings, but there's still a ton that use the Settings App (yes, it's a separate application) to control their settings.

If you could somehow live in a Metro-only world, and they put some on-screen cue for it, it wouldn't be as bad

If you're using Metro all the time, as tablet users do, you will be used to it after your first day with the device. It's a lot more intuitive there than it is on the desktop with a regular mouse - but I rarely ever have to access it with the mouse.

[glynor]

I agree with you on principle... but everyone else is doing it too. I can't think of a tablet OS that doesn't have functionality based around swiping from the edge of the screen.

I should have said "essential" hidden UI.  Again, it goes back to the difference between a "power user tool" (like the awesome Power User menu in Windows 8 and 8.1) and something everyone needs to get basic work done.

iOS does NOT have any essential UI elements that cannot be accessed via an on-screen element or physical button.  The only UI element I can think of that you can't get to (until iOS7) without using a special gesture is the Notification tray, which is clearly non-essential (you could happily use an iOS device for years and never know it is there and never miss it).  Now on iOS7 we also have the power tray thing, but again, those are shortcuts to things you can always do elsewhere.  And, even then, if you do swipe from the top, they show a pull-tab to make it obvious.

Gestures = Hotkeys.  Handy, useful, powerful.  But they can't be the only mechanism, or you have emacs.

The charms menu is basically a tablet-only feature

No, it isn't.  That's the ONLY way (other than command line trickery, which is worse) to reboot the computer by default on a Windows 8 install.  It is also the only way to access the Control Panel to do things like change the brightness of the screen unless you know the name of the control panel applet you are looking to use (and then you have to search, so it is similarly hidden).

If it was a non-essential extra, I'd agree with you.  It isn't, and it is bad, even on touchscreen-only devices.

Metro settings for Metro apps, Desktop settings for Desktop apps. Is that really so confusing?

If it worked that way in practice, it'd be fine.  But it doesn't.  The built-in apps are somewhat better at this now in 8.1 (Maps used to have stuff spread everywhere), but third-party apps wildly disobey this system.  Almost none of the third-party apps I've tried out use the Settings Charm for anything useful.  There is some of this on iOS, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as Metro.  Apps typically fall into two categories on iOS: Cross platform apps that use in-app settings dialogs (usually plainly apparent and not hidden behind a gesture-only secret handshake), and iOS-only apps that use the Settings app).  For example, on many of the Metro news reader apps I've tried (almost all of which are terrible, by the way), there is almost nothing useful in the Settings Charm, some settings in the hidden right-click menu thing, and some underneath some kind of in-app dialog with a button or link in the UI.  But then others use the Settings Charm.  I never know where to look, and I feel like there are "infinite hidden possibilities".

And, by the way, I think they don't use the Settings Charm much because it isn't discoverable (see above).  No one knows it is there, and they deal with the support requests.  So, even if the developer wants to "do the right thing" at first, they are quickly beaten into submission and they end up moving settings elsewhere.

If you're using Metro all the time, as tablet users do, you will be used to it after your first day with the device. It's a lot more intuitive there than it is on the desktop with a regular mouse - but I rarely ever have to access it with the mouse.

I don't know about this.  We've done quite a few test deployments of Windows 8 tablets at my job, and almost no one liked them except "technology people".  One of the main complaints was that it was "hard to find things".  People don't use this stuff as heavily as we do.  Many of our users aren't able to find the Settings app on iOS because they use it so infrequently, and that has an icon right on the first screen!  Something my mom used three weeks ago?

Other things about Metro seep into the desktop OS, and the look-and-feel is jarring.  For example, reassign a file extension association.  Ignoring for a moment that it asks you over and over again, which is irritating, the final "you have other apps that can open this file" notification thing that comes up, doesn't look or work ANYTHING like the rest of the Desktop environment.  It is jarring and looks out of place.  The type of UI design I'm used to seeing on Linux, where every application's look and feel is a crapshoot.

I don't know.  But it goes back to the central conceit of Windows 8.  One OS to rule them all, stapled together in a transparent market-share ploy.

I really think this was a terrible idea, and it is biting them now.  Apple, for all their faults (and they DO have many faults), made the right call on this one.  A truck OS for a truck and a bicycle OS for a bicycle, and then you borrow and share the best aspects that work back and forth.  Just ask anyone using Windows Server 2013 in production (if you can find anyone, which is challenging enough) if they like the UI choices.  (Everyone I know who likes it and defends it would just as soon do everything from the Power Shell.  Well, then, that's the definition of a failed UI design, if your users are just end-running it.)

But they're backing out of it, or at least I think they are planning for it (until the new CEO is hired and he or she gives a final answer).  There's been a bunch of interesting and suspicious leaks through Thurrott and others... I don't know, I think we're going to see a real move (back towards the Apple model) with the next big release of Windows.

[6233638]

I should have said "essential" hidden UI.  Again, it goes back to the difference between a "power user tool" (like the awesome Power User menu in Windows 8 and 8.1) and something everyone needs to get basic work done.

iOS does NOT have any essential UI elements that cannot be accessed via an on-screen element or physical button.  The only UI element I can think of that you can't get to (until iOS7) without using a special gesture is the Notification tray, which is clearly non-essential (you could happily use an iOS device for years and never know it is there and never miss it).  Now on iOS7 we also have the power tray thing, but again, those are shortcuts to things you can always do elsewhere.  And, even then, if you do swipe from the top, they show a pull-tab to make it obvious.

Gestures = Hotkeys.  Handy, useful, powerful.  But they can't be the only mechanism, or you have emacs.

I'm still not convinced. If developers are properly implementing it, you should now have a consistent location for things like app settings, rather than it being up to them as is the case on iOS. Clearly some developers are not doing this, but it should be more consistent to always have the app settings in one place.

I mean, I understand what you're saying about hidden UI, but the whole Metro UI is completely based around those edge gestures, I can't imagine anyone that owns those devices not knowing to do that.
It's really only a problem for desktop users that have a regular mouse, because there it is relatively hidden. With a tablet, the whole edge of the device is a way to access it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like you have only spent any time with Windows 8 on a desktop machine with a mouse.

No, it isn't.  That's the ONLY way (other than command line trickery, which is worse) to reboot the computer by default on a Windows 8 install.

I guess I've just never understood the "but my shutdown button is hidden away" argument. I have a physical power button on my computer for that. It moved from being a software control to a hardware button more than 10 years ago when it stopped immediately killing power to the system.

It is also the only way to access the Control Panel to do things like change the brightness of the screen unless you know the name of the control panel applet you are looking to use (and then you have to search, so it is similarly hidden).

This is the same as iOS - the brightness control is "hidden" in the Control Center. (previously accessible by a double-press of the home button - how's that for hidden UI?)

If it worked that way in practice, it'd be fine.  But it doesn't.  The built-in apps are somewhat better at this now in 8.1 (Maps used to have stuff spread everywhere), but third-party apps wildly disobey this system.  Almost none of the third-party apps I've tried out use the Settings Charm for anything useful.

We're talking about two different problems here. You are complaining about settings being mixed between the App UI and the Settings Charm, and I agree that may be a problem. (though it's not one I have really encountered)
What I was saying though, is that Metro app settings are done through the Metro UI (whether that's in the app or the settings charm) and Desktop App settings are handled on the Desktop.

There are no desktop settings controlled through the Metro "PC Settings" app, or the Settings Charm. The two are kept completely separate.
I've seen many people argue "why are there two control panels" but it would be far more confusing if Desktop settings were set through a Metro Control Panel, than the Desktop one, or vice-versa.

.  There is some of this on iOS, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as Metro.  Apps typically fall into two categories on iOS: Cross platform apps that use in-app settings dialogs (usually plainly apparent and not hidden behind a gesture-only secret handshake), and iOS-only apps that use the Settings app).  For example, on many of the Metro news reader apps I've tried (almost all of which are terrible, by the way), there is almost nothing useful in the Settings Charm, some settings in the hidden right-click menu thing, and some underneath some kind of in-app dialog with a button or link in the UI.  But then others use the Settings Charm.  I never know where to look, and I feel like there are "infinite hidden possibilities".

What I've seen is that app settings (e.g. your account settings, general preferences etc.) go in the Settings Charm, and things relevant to the current view (e.g. list style) are in the regular right click (swipe) menu.

I don't know about this.  We've done quite a few test deployments of Windows 8 tablets at my job, and almost no one liked them except "technology people".  One of the main complaints was that it was "hard to find things".  People don't use this stuff as heavily as we do.  Many of our users aren't able to find the Settings app on iOS because they use it so infrequently, and that has an icon right on the first screen!  Something my mom used three weeks ago?

It's because it's so inconsistent on iOS. Why would settings for an app you're currently using, be hidden inside a separate settings app? It's ridiculous. That still trips me up when it happens too - especially if it's a newer app, as putting your settings there is generally out of favor these days.

Other things about Metro seep into the desktop OS, and the look-and-feel is jarring.  For example, reassign a file extension association. Ignoring for a moment that it asks you over and over again, which is irritating, the final "you have other apps that can open this file" notification thing that comes up, doesn't look or work ANYTHING like the rest of the Desktop environment.  It is jarring and looks out of place.

I'm not sure what you mean about being asked over and over again. I only remember ever being asked that once when I installed a new web browser.
The "you have other apps..." prompt is using a standard system notification - the same as you get from emails, skype, calendar events etc.

And I would agree with you about the new dialog for reassigning a file association if it didn't work so much better than in previous versions of Windows, where it would often only list a single program, and require you to browse for the new one manually. In 8.1 it generally works much better for me than it did on 7. Would you be happy with it, if it looked like this?

I really think this was a terrible idea, and it is biting them now.  Apple, for all their faults (and they DO have many faults), made the right call on this one.  A truck OS for a truck and a bicycle OS for a bicycle.

I don't know. It just feels like iOS has been stagnant since version 4.0 or so, and they've just been changing the UI style more than anything else. The OS doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and anecdotally at least, that's the impression I'm getting from casual users too. They don't see any reason to upgrade their devices now, because there's no new functionality they would gain from it and I don't know anyone that's really buying new apps any more. Maybe it's a skewed perspective, but it feels like the app store died around iOS 6's introduction.

There's still nothing like a central document store in iOS, so if you need to move a file around multiple apps (because most are so single-tasking, that they can't do everything you want) you still need to create a duplicate copy to send to each one, make your change, and then pass it on. The best solution anyone has come up with is to use Dropbox or, less frequently, iCloud syncing, which requires an active connection and a willingness to send your private data over the internet.

Just ask anyone using Windows Server 2013 in production (if you can find anyone, which is challenging enough) if they like the UI choices.  (Everyone I know who likes it and defends it would just as soon do everything from the Power Shell.  Well, then, that's the definition of a failed UI design, if your users are just end-running it.)

Well you say that like people running Windows server were doing anything other than using Power Shell. That's just the kind of person that manages servers.

But they're backing out of it, or at least I think they are planning for it (until the new CEO is hired and he or she gives a final answer).  There's been a bunch of interesting and suspicious leaks through Thurrott and others... I don't know, I think we're going to see a real move (back towards the Apple model) with the next big release of Windows.

I think we might see better integration between the two on the desktop, and possibly removal of the desktop on RT devices once there are Metro apps for things like Office, but overall I don't see their strategy changing - especially now that there are x86 chips which are competitive with ARM hardware, but open up the ability to run any legacy x86 apps. Sure, they're a little underpowered for the desktop right now, but in a couple of years, I wouldn't be surprised to see the market moving away from ARM - at least as far as Windows tablets are concerned, and probably Android as well.

[glynor]

I guess I've just never understood the "but my shutdown button is hidden away" argument. I have a physical power button on my computer for that. It moved from being a software control to a hardware button more than 10 years ago when it stopped immediately killing power to the system.

The default behavior in a clean-installed Windows 8 machine is that the physical power button does NOT power down the machine, but sleeps it instead.  You can switch it, but it is a user-defined option.

And there's no way to reboot it cleanly without the Charms UI.

It's because it's so inconsistent on iOS. Why would settings for an app you're currently using, be hidden inside a separate settings app? It's ridiculous. That still trips me up when it happens too - especially if it's a newer app, as putting your settings there is generally out of favor these days.

As far as I'm concerned (and, frankly, as far as the API is and as far as any other "non-technical" consumer would be concerned) the Charms bar is a separate application.

I get that they wanted to connect it more closely to the app, while trying to encourage consistency across apps, but I think in practice, it has been mostly like the Android hardware back button.  The behavior is so inconsistent that it "trains" you not to trust it.  That's bad.

I agree that it is bad on iOS. Though nowhere near as bad as on Android.  Still, on iOS apps do generallu fall into those two categories, and you typically don't have to look both places.  There are exceptions (JRemote is one), though even then, they typically reserve the Settings menu widget for "advanced options" the the vast majority of users will never need.  But that's pretty irrelevant.  Even if you say that it is "just as bad on iOS as Windows", they aren't operating from a dominant market position.  To displace iOS, they will have to do much better than it.  They have to tell a story about why it is better.  Office and filesystem access isn't it.

My argument about the Charms Bar, though, wasn't that it is completely and utterly useless.  It was that it is designed poorly.  I don't hate the idea of the Charms bar, but if they are going to sell this as one OS, then it should behave like one OS.  The dual identities is the problem:  It makes the Charms Bar disorienting in Metro mode, bad with a mouse and keyboard, and it is still inconsistent on a touchscreen device.

It is a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

What I was saying though, is that Metro app settings are done through the Metro UI (whether that's in the app or the settings charm) and Desktop App settings are handled on the Desktop.

To change the brightness, you go through the Charms Bar.  There are tons of examples of specific things that are in one place or the other, but that's not the point:  To get to the Control Panel in Desktop mode in the first place, unless you know the name of the Control Panel applet you are looking for, you have to go through the Charms Bar.  Therefore, you have to use it.

As far as the future, we'll see.

They've certainly gotten smacked around this round.  As I said, I don't hate Windows 8.  I ran it on my HTPC before 8.1 was released, and now that they've fixed some of my biggest issues, I run it on my main PC too.  There are some things that are great, and some things that are terrible, like any software made by humans.

As it is, it has zero chance to substantially displace either iOS or Android as the dominant mobile platforms.  If they don't want to end up in the consumer space like their partner Nokia, they'd better make some changes, and fast.

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The default behavior in a clean-installed Windows 8 machine is that the physical power button does NOT power down the machine, but sleeps it instead.  You can switch it, but it is a user-defined option.

Oh, I guess I must have changed that without even thinking about it.  I think OS X handles that a bit better by prompting the user about what they want to do when pressing the power button.
Windows has a dialog for it (Alt+F4 on the desktop) but no option to display that prompt when you hit the power button.

And there's no way to reboot it cleanly without the Charms UI.

Huh, I guess not. Never had to use it before.

As far as I'm concerned (and, frankly, as far as the API is and as far as any other "non-technical" consumer would be concerned) the Charms bar is a separate application.

Well I don't know about the API stuff, but from a user perspective, swiping in from the side to bring up the app settings is very different from going back to your home screen, finding and then launching a completely separate app.

My argument, though, wasn't that it is completely and utterly useless.  It was that it is designed poorly.  I don't hate the idea of the Charms bar, but if they are going to sell this as one OS, then it should behave like one OS.  The dual identities is the problem:  It makes the Charms Bar disorienting in Metro mode, bad with a mouse and keyboard, and it is still inconsistent on a touchscreen device.

What are you suggesting then? That settings are moved to a separate app like iOS? That desktop preferences are integrated into Charms?
The problem seems to be developer inconsistencies rather than it being a problem with the system Microsoft has designed.

To change the brightness, you go through the Charms Bar.

I still don't see how that is any different from iOS' Control Center? Where else would you expect to change the brightness?

There are tons of examples of specific things that are in one place or the other, but that's not the point:  To get to the Control Panel in Desktop mode in the first place, unless you know the name of the Control Panel applet you are looking for, you have to go through the Charms Bar.  Therefore, you have to use it.

The funny thing is that I've never launched the control panel via the Charms Menu - I didn't actually know that you could. I either search for the setting I want (which supports just about any way you could describe it, rather than the exact name) or launch it via the Start Button.

That is the one thing I've missed since ditching the Start Menu though - I liked the list view for Control Panel items that you could display. But these are "power user" features, so something like right-clicking the Start Button does not seem unreasonable.

As far as the future, we'll see.

They've certainly gotten smacked around this round.  As I said, I don't hate Windows 8.  I ran it on my HTPC before 8.1 was released, and now that they've fixed some of my biggest issues, I run it on my main PC too.  There are some things that are great, and some things that are terrible, like any software made by humans.

As it is, it has zero chance to substantially displace either iOS or Android as the dominant mobile platforms.  If they don't want to end up in the consumer space like their partner Nokia, they'd better make some changes, and fast.

While Apple is certainly not having problems selling hardware, they do seem to be losing momentum, and the App Store is not doing nearly as well as it used to. The future is convergence, with your phone likely being your only computer eventually, unless you're a power user.
With Windows 8, Microsoft has already managed to unify desktop and tablet hardware. I agree that it is not perfect, but as someone that's spent a few years with iPads, Macs, and Desktop PCs, personally, I'm looking to get rid of the hassle of syncing files, converting media, having to buy the same app multiple times etc.
 
The hardware and doesn't seem to quite be there yet (though it's mostly the display that stopped me buying a Surface Pro 2) but in a year or two, I definitely see myself far more likely to own a Windows 8.x tablet or convertible alongside my desktop, than a MacBook or an iPad.

I also think it's important to note that I have (well, had, until recently) a MacBook and an iPad. Neither device could handle everything I wanted from mobile computing. I think the Surface Pro would.

[InflatableMouse]

Aside from the Start Screen, you never have to use the Metro interface on a desktop machine. It's not being forced on anyone.

Meaning your in it every time you need to start an application. And control panel doesn't provide access to Metro settings. Without a 3rd party start menu, you'll be constantly reminded of this Metro-thing.

If MS didn't want to force this, they wouldn't have removed the start menu.

And what exactly is the "natural evolution" you see?

Evolution is the change in inherited characteristics over successive generations.

When I say natural evolution I mean that these changes improve the way we previously worked. For that to be it has to satisfy 2 things: it has to have its roots in what we had and it has to be better than it was. Metro on the Desktop is neither. Nothing on desktop OS's led to this change naturally (it wasn't inherited from a previous generation) and it doesn't improve much if anything for desktop users.

From my perspective:
I had a start menu, efficient in screen estate use, showing a dynamic and customizable list of recently used programs, I could easily click through a hierarchal structure of folders, I could right click icons and folders to customize its attributes and I could easily drag and drop. I could see time, date, notification area. I see a few icons on my desktop including my recycle bin. All this required minimal mouse clicks and little mouse movement.

Now, we have an inefficient use of screen estate that's intrusive, obstructive, it doesn't dynamically show anything I've used before, there is no date, no time, no recycle bin and no notification area. I cannot easily click through folders but instead, I need to move my mouse 5x the distance and several mouse clicks to get all apps, only to get an enormous list of everything and as big as my screen is, I need to effin' scroll! As far as I'm aware I can't drag and drop in all apps, I cannot reorder all apps, I cannot easily change any attributes of icons nor can I hide things I don't want to see.

So really, without completely changing the way how I used to work, how is this any better than what I had???

And then to add insult to injury, I'm forced into things that I don't want and they are hard to get underneath from because they are illogic or even deliberately hidden, like that incredibly cheeky way to get an online account instead of a local account. Stuff like that make me gag.

[rjm]

Evolution is the change in inherited characteristics over successive generations.

When I say natural evolution I mean that these changes improve the way we previously worked. For that to be it has to satisfy 2 things: it has to have its roots in what we had and it has to be better than it was. Metro on the Desktop is neither. Nothing on desktop OS's led to this change naturally (it wasn't inherited from a previous generation) and it doesn't improve much if anything for desktop users.

Well said.

Just so I don't leave the wrong impression...

I really like Windows 8.1. Everything is working perfectly for me. Including the hard stuff that previous Windows versions had trouble with like external drive e-Sata/USB connections, sleep, wake-on-lan, multiple monitors, fast boot, fast shutdown, etc.

All I had to do was install the free Classic Start Menu utility to get rid of all the metro nonsense and have Windows work just like it used to. You really should try it you have not already.
http://www.classicshell.net/

[6233638]

Meaning your in it every time you need to start an application. And control panel doesn't provide access to Metro settings. Without a 3rd party start menu, you'll be constantly reminded of this Metro-thing.

The Start Screen is just a grid of icons though, it doesn't operate in a way that is drastically different from the (actual) desktop.

When I say natural evolution I mean that these changes improve the way we previously worked. For that to be it has to satisfy 2 things: it has to have its roots in what we had and it has to be better than it was. Metro on the Desktop is neither. Nothing on desktop OS's led to this change naturally (it wasn't inherited from a previous generation) and it doesn't improve much if anything for desktop users.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "desktop users". If you mean people with an actual tower tethered to a desk, you're probably right that there wasn't much heading in this direction, as the desktop computer is a dying breed.

If "desktop users" means people running a full version of x86 Windows on a computer, then this is absolutely heading along the the natural path of evolution for notebooks.

From my perspective:
I had a start menu, efficient in screen estate use, showing a dynamic and customizable list of recently used programs

The Start menu was limited to, if I recall correctly, 30 pinned items. I can fit far more than 30 items on my Start Screen, without any scrolling.

And rather than being sorted in a simple text list, you now have large icons, color and position to locate the apps you are looking for. Our brains are made to work visually - it is definitely an upgrade in that regard.

I could easily click through a hierarchal structure of folders

I won't deny that this is a regression in the Start Screen compared to the Start Menu. But using the "All Programs" menu has always been very inefficient - I rarely ever entered it other than to pin a newly installed application. In that regard, the Start Screen sorted by date installed, is more efficient.

I do agree that if you just install applications, never do any organization and are just trying to find something when things are sorted by name, the "All Apps" view in the Start Screen is a mess.

Now, we have an inefficient use of screen estate that's intrusive, obstructive, it doesn't dynamically show anything I've used before

If your task is to launch an application, it's more efficient to use the full display rather than 1/8th of it. You can also display apps by "most used" if that's what you want.
If efficiency is your main concern, you could be launching apps via the keyboard with your eyes closed faster than either the Start Menu or Start Screen.

As far as I'm aware I can't drag and drop in all apps, I cannot reorder all apps, I cannot easily change any attributes of icons nor can I hide things I don't want to see.

Sort order is chosen by your... sort order. (name/date installed/most used/category) Right-click a shortcut and hit "open file location" if you want to edit them.

So really, without completely changing the way how I used to work, how is this any better than what I had???

If you're not willing to change, anything different is automatically worse, even if it's an improvement.

[InflatableMouse]

If you're not willing to change, anything different is automatically worse, even if it's an improvement.

It's not that I'm not willing to change, I am. And I have. My work laptop is running win8 as is my HTPC and I can find my way around and do everything I need to do.

The thing is, I don't experience it (Metro, new start screen) as an improvement and I've stated my reasons. I'm not going to quote all your arguments,  I simply (and respectfully) disagree with most of it . So let's agree we disagree shall we?

I can find no fault with Win8 itself as an OS, its fast, its stable, I like the new copy dialogs, the new task & resource manager and many other small changes they've made. They actually improve upon how things were in Windows 7. I will even say that Win8 is a better OS than Win7, simply for the added security, the speed improvements and the many other small improvements. I only have an issue with Metro, the start screen and the removal of the start menu for desktop users.

And true desktops may disappear one day, I'll agree to that. But they haven't yet and until then, I won't be using Metro .

[glynor]

But they're backing out of it, or at least I think they are planning for it (until the new CEO is hired and he or she gives a final answer).  There's been a bunch of interesting and suspicious leaks through Thurrott and others... I don't know, I think we're going to see a real move (back towards the Apple model) with the next big release of Windows.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[glynor]

Ding, dong the Charms Is Dead!

Huzzah!

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Start Menu

Virtual Desktops