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[connersw]

Is it possible to simply rename a file path?  When using Library Tools -> Rename, Move, & Copy Files, if I rename a directory, it doesn't actually rename the directory.  It creates a new one, and it moves the audio files to the new one.  If the old folder is now empty, I get a pop up asking if I want to delete the empty folder.  However, if that old folder has cover art or txt files in it, those files stay in the old folder and are now separated from the audio tracks. 

Is it possible to just rename the file path like you can in Tag & Rename?  Maybe there is something simple that I am missing, but this is the one thing that is keeping me from using MC for all my tagging/organizing needs. 

[rael71]

+1

I want this feature especially for DSD files for which as far as I know MC is the capable software for tagging!

[rjm]

The Rename, Move, & Copy feature only acts on files that are imported into MC (with the exception of artwork associated with video or audio files since MC understands it should move artwork files at the same time).

So one option is to import and tag all your jpgs and txts (which I have done) but that may create more tagging work for you and you may not like the library clutter.

Another option you may not be aware of is that from within Drives & Devices in the MC tree you can drag folders and rename folders. I use this all the time.

[Vocalpoint]

Another option you may not be aware of is that from within Drives & Devices in the MC tree you can drag folders and rename folders. I use this all the time.

This is what I use. The Rename tool in MC is really not designed as an "explorer" like tool where it gets down and dirty with the OS and starts manipulating existing folders and paths etc.

I view it as a tool to allow me to nicely "place" my files into a standard naming convention\folder schema that works for me. If I really need to change a folder name or path - best to use the Tree as above or crank it out in Explorer.

I also do not place any extraneous files (like .txt, jpg etc) in my main Music area so this tool works perfect as is. I can count on it to move my FLAC files I am working on to the right place and leave any other stuff behind. If I do have any extra files like log files after a rip or folder.jpg or whatever - I bundle those into an archive file that is stored with the master archive (backup) copy.

VP

[connersw]

The Rename, Move, & Copy feature only acts on files that are imported into MC (with the exception of artwork associated with video or audio files since MC understands it should move artwork files at the same time).

Actually, it doesn't.  If it did, this would solve 90% of my problems.  It leaves cover art when it moves the audio files to the newly created directory.

So one option is to import and tag all your jpgs and txts (which I have done) but that may create more tagging work for you and you may not like the library clutter.

I don't really see this as a viable option.  I have Ignore special files checked on Import to avoid this exact scenario.  I use MC for Audio, Images, and Video. I would not want my Image library jammed full of cover art and corrupting the views I have created. 

Another option you may not be aware of is that from within Drives & Devices in the MC tree you can drag folders and rename folders. I use this all the time.

I don't see how I can batch rename folders with Tree Tagging; only tagging actual files.  I'm aware that I can Right Click -> Rename; however, there is no advantage to doing this from Drives & Devices vs in Windows Explorer now that MC fixes broken links.  I would still have to type out the rename manually instead of using the tag properties.  Maybe I am still missing something though?

This is what I use. The Rename tool in MC is really not designed as an "explorer" like tool where it gets down and dirty with the OS and starts manipulating existing folders and paths etc.

I view it as a tool to allow me to nicely "place" my files into a standard naming convention\folder schema that works for me. If I really need to change a folder name or path - best to use the Tree as above or crank it out in Explorer.

I also do not place any extraneous files (like .txt, jpg etc) in my main Music area so this tool works perfect as is. I can count on it to move my FLAC files I am working on to the right place and leave any other stuff behind. If I do have any extra files like log files after a rip or folder.jpg or whatever - I bundle those into an archive file that is stored with the master archive (backup) copy.

VP

I realize MC is not a down and dirty Explorer like tool, and it is better to view and access files in MC itself.  Unfortunately though, I am not the only one that accesses these files and sometimes they are accessed from Explorer.  Additionally, in the event MC is no longer around or I switch to another media manager, I would prefer to have my library organized in Windows as well as MC. 

I keep my Music area pretty clean as well, but I do keep log files, Vinyl rip info, audience recording set up info, and cover art with the album or concert recording.  I prefer it this way, and it works for me.

So if this feature doesn't exist, I am requesting it.  I would love it if MC was my only media management tool, and right now it is not.  This feature is available in other media managers like Media Monkey (in fact it can do it automatically on import) and in other tagging programs, like Tag & Rename.  I'm not the only one looking for this feature, and I think it confuses newbies:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85225.msg582346#msg582346

[glynor]

Actually, it doesn't.  If it did, this would solve 90% of my problems.  It leaves cover art when it moves the audio files to the newly created directory.

If the cover art files are imported into the MC Library, then you must select them and move them yourself.  MC doesn't auto-move these if they are in the Library.
If the cover art files are NOT imported into your Library, then MC moves them by itself.

You might have them imported, is the problem.  Even if they are (perhaps) filtered out of the views you are using.  Or, the ignore special files ignores many things, but it won't catch things like NFO files, your log files, or oddly named cover art files (it is looking for folder.jpg or other common patterns, essentially).

But, in any case, I think MC's behavior is the proper behavior.  It should not, under any circumstances, move or delete files that it didn't either create itself, or where the user explicitly asks for the action.  Auto-moving or deleting extra files could be disastrous, and is very difficult to undo.  Better safe than sorry.

The easiest way to solve your problem, though?

1. Select a file or files that you want to move.  Right-click > Locate > On Disk (External).
2. Move them in Windows Explorer.  This will break all the links.
3a.  If you have Auto-Import on and Fix Broken Links enabled, it will probably fix the problem in a few minutes.  However, if not...
3b.  Simply do the Rename, Move, and Copy files deal on the broken links AFTER you move them.

Personally, I have the extra files all imported into my Library.  If it is on my disk, in a "media folder" of any kind, it is imported into MC.  It is QUITE simple to filter stuff out of Library Views if they show up places you don't want to see them (in fact, it is almost never an issue by default, except for in the Images view, and it is simple enough to filter them out of there automatically).

When I need to move things, I go to my "Library Management" views under my Advanced top-level tree view, and move them from there (where I can select all the different file types at once and do them in one fell swoop).  But, you could do it just as easily by just moving them in Windows Explorer.

[glynor]

If you decide to go the "import them into the Library" route, and you want help setting it up to auto-tag them and hide them away, just yell.  I have a very well defined system.  With the Tag On Import rules system, you can fully automate it, and make it so you never see those files unless you intend to see them.

[connersw]

Glynor:  Thanks for the reply; however, MC does not operate the way you claim.  Perhaps it is supposed to and there is bug?  I know for certain that the cover art is not in my library, it is labeled folder.jpg, and it does not move with the audio files.  I just retested it again.  Again, I am not the only one with this issue.  See InflatableMouse's last comment in his first post:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82792.0

I agree with you that MC's behavior is the proper behavior though; it should not move or delete files under any circumstances without you telling it to.  If it did actually move additional files in the folder, that could be a problem. 

I understand many, many ways around the problem.  But it doesn't change the fact that you are creating a multiple step work around to fix something very simple:  do not move the files to begin with; just rename the folder. 

The work around you suggest is actually irrelevant since the files I need to move are not in my library to begin with.  The easiest way is to just go into Explorer, move them into the new folder, then delete the old folder.  If I am renaming the folder for multiple albums at once, you can see how much extra work this is.  Imagine if it just renamed the folder, and everything was done in one click.   

If I did add the files to my library and then filtered them out, again I am just creating extra work.  I would need new filters for several views.  Then those views need updated in Theater View, Gizmo, DLNA.  I'm sorry, I just think renaming the folder is a much easier way to do it. 

[rjm]

If the cover art files are imported into the MC Library, then you must select them and move them yourself.  MC doesn't auto-move these if they are in the Library.
If the cover art files are NOT imported into your Library, then MC moves them by itself.

Not true. I have a policy that every file in a media folder must be imported. No exceptions. This means I import and tag all artwork that MC creates with Get Movie Info. If I then move a movie video file, MC also moves the imported artwork.

[rjm]

Actually, it doesn't.  If it did, this would solve 90% of my problems.  It leaves cover art when it moves the audio files to the newly created directory.

Sorry, all of my audio artwork is embedded in the mp3 file tags. So I am not certain how MC handles external audio artwork files. I do know that external video artwork files work perfectly whether they are imported or not. I just assumed audio worked the same.

[rjm]

I don't really see this as a viable option.  I have Ignore special files checked on Import to avoid this exact scenario.  I use MC for Audio, Images, and Video. I would not want my Image library jammed full of cover art and corrupting the views I have created.  

My opinion is that if a file is not imported then MC does not own the file. And if MC does not own the file then it has no right to move or rename it. Video artwork is a reasonable exception since it is linked to MC via the [Image File] field and thus MC assumes it is allowed to move the artwork even thought it is not imported.

[glynor]

Not true. I have a policy that every file in a media folder must be imported. No exceptions. This means I import and tag all artwork that MC creates with Get Movie Info. If I then move a movie video file, MC also moves the imported artwork.

Okay.  I thought that was true.  Apparently not.  I did not test to verify, and I was going from memory of something half-forgot.

[glynor]

My opinion is that if a file is not imported then MC does not own the file. And if MC does not own the file then it has no right to move or rename it. Video artwork is a reasonable exception since it is linked to MC via the [Image File] field and thus MC assumes it is allowed to move the artwork even thought it is not imported.

+1

to fix something very simple:  do not move the files to begin with; just rename the folder.  

A rename is a move.  They're indistinguishable.  The Windows API call for "renaming" a file is MoveFile.  The Windows Explorer UI, like the DOS UI before it, presents a UI that allows you to rename a directory, but this is the same thing internally as "move all the files within this directory to a new filesystem location".

That may seem like a semantic difference, but it isn't really.  Renaming the files, not specified or selected by the command, which aren't files that MC created could be problematic.  It is difficult to divine user intent.  I don't think the proper place for it is in the Rename, Move, and Copy tool.  That's what Drives and Devices is for!

In any case, as was pointed out above, there are a number of ways to accomplish what you'd like.  I'm not sure what is so difficult about:

1. Find a file in the directory you want to move or rename.
2. Right-click > Locate > On Disk (Inside Media Center).
3. Rename the folder in the tree-view on the left hand side.
4. Drink a beer, you're done.

If you really want to use the powerful abilities of the Rename, Move, and Copy tool, you have to import and select the files.  That seems like a safe design decision.

[Arindelle]

for the OP ... follow Glynor's explanation, easy works like a charm and his step 2, a lot of people miss. You do this externally there will/can be issues.

Is it possible to just rename the file path like you can in Tag & Rename?

I've found that doing this for hundreds of files at a time, especially with long path+file names for classical music, can be a pain if you want to really change a lot of stuff ...

If this is the case you might want to try TagScanner http://www.xdlab.ru/en/, which replaced Tag&Rename for me.  It has a nifty feature to limit long path names to not go over the 260 character limit (256 characters?). On  autoimport the "broken links" will be updated

 If you want to try this I would recommend making sure your "date imported" fields are written to the file, (write library to tags to be sure in tools). Otherwise you could end up reimporting as new a lot of files.

Also I have a work around for moving audio files and associated image files (probably works for video too). You have to rip to a temporary directory, do a simple tag on all new files after import. After any retagging is done, I use the rename/move command via a smartlist to move the files, then I remove the images from the library only. If anyone is interested in this I'll post the details

[connersw]

Your insistence that MC is functioning correctly and does things the best possible way is commendable, but I think you are missing the point on what I am actually trying to accomplish.  There is a much easier way to do it, and other programs do it seamlessly.

In the example you just gave, to accomplish step 3, I would need to right click on the folder in tree view and then manually type out:  19 - Adele [2008].  I would then need to do this for every single folder.  As I wrote earlier, there is no advantage to doing this in tree view since MC now fixes broken links.  I can right click -> rename and type in Explorer just fine.

Now, if I have a preset rename of [Album] - [Album Artist (Auto)] [[Year]], I would just have to right click -> Library Tools -> Rename, Move, & Copy Files -> OK and it is instantly done.  I could do this for one folder or a 1000 all in one click. 

I believe you missed the point in this post as well:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85225.msg582346#msg582346  Just like MC has File Locations and Folder Rules for ripped media, Media Monkey applies those same rules on import.  It makes no difference if I ripped a CD or if I downloaded it.  I just drop the folder containing the album into a folder monitored by import, and it instantly renames the file path based on the tags using the folder rules I specified.  I believe this is the logical next step since more and more media will be downloaded vs being ripped; maybe even an option to turn it on or off if you don't want MC changing your files paths.  For now though, I am simply asking for an actual directory/file path/folder rename (semantics aside). 

Until then, the easiest solution (compared to everything that has been proposed) is still: do all my tagging in MC, open up Tag & Rename, Rename Folder, OK. 

[connersw]

Arindelle, you are correct.  While MC will fix the broken link, the advantage to doing it within MC is that it will ensure your date imported does not get messed up.  That could corrupt some of my views. 

Your work around, while smart, is again another multiple step work around for something that MC could do automatically if implemented differently. 

[glynor]

Your work around, while smart, is again another multiple step work around for something that MC could do automatically if implemented differently.  

It could also do it automatically if you imported everything in those folders, which is what I do (and what many other power users do).  I'm not a big fan of the auxiliary files anyway, but... Just saying.  It isn't like the filtering is that complex.  By default, views under the Audio view will show only Audio files, so they don't show up in your "regular views" anyway.

I wouldn't be against it if there was some kind of optional way to do what you want via the Rename, Move, and Copy files tool, but I also don't care very much.  There are many ways to solve the problem.

[connersw]

So, just to make sure I wasn't stuck in my ways and being a curmudgeon insisting only my way was better, I experimented with importing everything in an album's folder including cover art and txt files.  If I am using audio view, right click -> Library Tools -> Rename, Move, & Copy Files, it still leaves all the other files in the old folder since it is only seeing audio files in that view.

But... I did discover a new work around.  In Drives & Devices, I cannot right click on the folder and use Library Tools; however, I can use Ctrl+A and select all the files (including files that are not in my library), then use right click -> Library Tools -> Rename, Move, & Copy Files.  I can then move all the files at once and delete the old empty folder.

Still, this a work around where I can do only do one folder at a time and must select all files.  It's better than what I was doing and can eliminate Tag & Rename, but I still think it would be more powerful if MC just renamed the file path and I could multiple folders at once.  Automating it and doing all file paths on import like Media Monkey would be icing on the cake. 

Arggg...Scratch that.  Since the cover art is not tagged, it actually moves it to a separate folder Unknown Album - Unknown Artist [Year].  Back to square one.

[Arindelle]

If I am using audio view, right click -> Library Tools -> Rename, Move, & Copy Files, it still leaves all the other files in the old folder since it is only seeing audio files in that view.

that's why you make a smart list (using for example [File Type]=[flac],[jpg] ) then ctrl+A etc

just for info, also some standard editing/renaming commands which can't be done through right click, can be done through edit on the main menu

[connersw]

It could also do it automatically if you imported everything in those folders, which is what I do (and what many other power users do).  I'm not a big fan of the auxiliary files anyway, but... Just saying.  It isn't like the filtering is that complex.  By default, views under the Audio view will show only Audio files, so they don't show up in your "regular views" anyway.

See my post above, no it doesn't because of the reason you just stated: those files are filtered out of Audio views.  I would have to tag the cover art in an Image View, then move files in Drives & Devices.  More added steps.  Filtering is not "complex," but read my previous post about having to filter in multiple views.  I realize cover art would be auto filtered from Audio view, but it would corrupt my Image views without additional (non-complex, but certainly a hassle) filtering.  Since you cannot save entire view schemes across view modes (something many including myself have also requested before), I would then need to apply the changes to Theater View, every DLNA player, and Gizmo.  Even more hassle.

that's why you make a smart list (using for example [File Type]=[flac],[jpg] ) then ctrl+A etc

I will try this later, but I think I am going to run into the same problem as above.  Unless the cover art is tagged with Album/Artist info, it will go to an Unknown Folder. 

just for info, also some standard editing/renaming commands which can't be done through right click, can be done through edit on the main menu

Library tools is not available through edit on the main menu for folders in Drives & Devices, only Rename is (ie manual typing). 

[connersw]

that's why you make a smart list (using for example [File Type]=[flac],[jpg] ) then ctrl+A etc

An interesting idea, but this actually only adds the additional step of creating a smart list.  You still can't use Library Tools on smart lists, so I must select all the files in a smart list and do one smart list at a time.  I can already do that in a folder in Drives & Devices.  I also still run into the problem of having to make sure the cover art and text files are tagged.   

[glynor]

that's why you make a smart list (using for example [File Type]=[flac],[jpg] ) then ctrl+A etc

I make them views, not Smartlists.  That way you can still use panes to navigate.

I'll make a screencast when I get a chance.

[Arindelle]

An interesting idea, but this actually only adds the additional step of creating a smart list.  You still can't use Library Tools on smart lists, so I must select all the files in a smart list and do one smart list at a time.  I can already do that in a folder in Drives & Devices.  I also still run into the problem of having to make sure the cover art and text files are tagged.    

Sorry no... see screenshot. set up smartlist once, setup preset for rename/move tool once.

I will try this later, but I think I am going to run into the same problem as above.  Unless the cover art is tagged with Album/Artist info, it will go to an Unknown Folder.  

No the cover art does not have to be tagged at all UNLESS the art is not contained within the file folder with your music tracks. I know some people dump their art in a different directory but I have never understood why. Whether or not the smartlist approach is viable to you or not is something else. Just trying to give you some alternatives, not to talk about what works or not. However I  import to a temporary, but playable, directory. I always verify my tags, so this doesn't bother me

BTW, you want fast? .. don't move the artwork at all. erase it... select all your newly moved files and right click=>coverart=>save cover art to external locations

Library tools is not available through edit on the main menu for folders in Drives & Devices, only Rename is (ie manual typing).  

Never meant to imply that. Just that between edit and right click you can do everything that windows explorer does.. Useful for cut and paste of large numbers of folders at once.

@Glynor -- I'd be interested seeing your approach. Thanks in advance

[glynor]

See my post above, no it doesn't because of the reason you just stated: those files are filtered out of Audio views.  I would have to tag the cover art in an Image View, then move files in Drives & Devices.

Here's the part that might not be readily apparent:

There is absolutely no rule that says you have to do your tagging/organizing work in the same Views that you use to browse your Library for regular use.  In fact, if you give this method a solid try, I'd be willing to bet that you will find other benefits not related to the Renaming/Moving step.  Part of the reason I think we're miscommunicating a bit is that I can't imagine wanting to do the "heavy lifting" tagging jobs anywhere in the Audio part of my Tree.  That would be terrible!  Then I'd have to choose panes and column setups that work well for both tagging tasks and for browsing tasks!  That's not ideal.

As I said, I'll try to make a screencast showing my setup in more detail later, but that probably won't happen until much later tonight.

My basic "top level" system is this, though:

1. I have a new Top-Level View added to the Tree called Advanced.  It has NO FILTERS AT ALL, so it shows all files, and the Allow Tree Selection option is unchecked.
2. Underneath that, I have a variety of "utility" views.  One of these is a "folder view" called Imports.  It is just structured as a folder (Allow Tree Selection unchecked, and categories/panes/file list doesn't matter because you never see it), with no filters either.
3. Underneath Imports, I have four separate views for different tasks: Audio, Images, Video, and Documents.
4. These views have panes set up to be specifically selected for the job of tagging, moving, organizing, etc.  I don't use these to browse and play my files, just for "maintenance".
5. These views are also NOT filtered by [Media Type], and they are sorted by [Filename] so their sorting matches the filesystem structure (I find this usually works best for tagging tasks).  The reason there are separate sub-views is that I don't want to have the same column setup and panes when I'm tagging Audio files as I do when I'm tagging TV Shows (though I rarely have to manually tag TV Shows en masse anymore).

So, for example, that Audio Imports view has these panes in this order (I think, I'm going by memory because I'm at work):

Code: [Select]

Location (Filename)
Week Imported*
Media Type
Media Sub Type
Genre
Artist
Album
Disc #
Keywords
* Week Imported is a custom field I use to make a nice pane that allows me to subfilter views by the week in which the files were imported.  It makes it easier to break down big sets of imports into smaller jobs, and also to find the thing I want to work on.

I'd never want all that crap in my normal Audio browsing views (the "main one" of which just has Genre/Artist/Album).  But all of those are very handy for fast and efficient tagging.  I also have my Details Column order set up to show the columns I care about for tagging, in the order I care about them for tagging.  This doesn't match how I want to display them for "browsing" activities, but it makes the Tag Action Window show them in this order (as long as you have the Tag AW set to Show Tags from Current View, or whatever that choice is called).  It works splendidly, and I can't even imagine doing serious metadata management any other way.  You only need to set this up once, and then you can use it forever.  I think I made mine seriously like 6 years ago.

So, when I'm tagging files, I sit in this view (in at least one tab, sometimes I have my "normal" browsing views open in another tab as well for reference).  It shows all of the files I have imported, and I can browse by folder with the Location pane (allowing me to control/shift-select big sets of files to apply Rename, Move, and Copy operations to huge swaths of files all at once.

And, of course, since these views aren't filtered by [Media Type], you can easily apply [Artist] and [Album] tags to dissimilar [Media Type] files at once.  The panes allow you to selectively show and "unshow" different file types as needed.

I generally tag Cover Art and other auxiliary files I want to keep (which isn't much in my case, but you can use the same method for log files and other text files and whatnot) with tags matching the files they belong with (matching [Artist] and [Album] basically).  I make [Media Sub Type] match the files they "belong with" (because this makes my Rename, Move, and Copy presets simpler), and  I use [Genre] to label them as "Media Art" or "Media Auxiliary".  These last things I mentioned actually all happen automatically at import time:  I have Tag On Import rules set up to automatically apply these tags to any Images and Documents it finds in my M:\Incoming\ folder, wherever possible.

[Arindelle]

There is absolutely no rule that says you have to do your tagging/organizing work in the same Views that you use to browse your Library for regular use. ... I have a new Top-Level View added to the Tree called Advanced.

OMFG THANKS, Glynor. I have been using jriver since version 15 and I NEVER saw the Location: (Root) option before!!! huge swaths of files all at once[/b] makes me laugh ... "swaths" of files!! I'm picturing enormous tractor combines driven by jriver users,  farming the internet vastness for centuries worth of media content 

Well, it might not change how I import, but it will make my tagging a lot more user-friendly.  I've got 20 or so maintenance oriented smartlists that are going to dwindle and be replaced by five Admin views.  And for classical stuff I can see other advantages.

Can't believe I missed this all these years. My motto should be why make it simple when you can do complicated 

[glynor]

I forgot (because that was from memory)...  I do have a Classical Music one too.  You can make any specific ones you want.

[MrC]

I've described this with some screenshots a couple of times.  Here are two I found quickly:

   http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76421.0
   http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82987.msg566542#msg566542

I think there really should be another mode in Rename, Move & Copy, which is just a plain ol' Directory Rename (irrespective of MC's imported items).  Users are asked too much to simply rename directories.

[rjm]

I think there really should be another mode in Rename, Move & Copy, which is just a plain ol' Directory Rename (irrespective of MC's imported items).  Users are asked too much to simply rename directories.

That would work for me provided there was a warning that MC will move all files including those possibly managed by another application.

[connersw]

Sorry no... see screenshot. set up smartlist once, setup preset for rename/move tool once.

Um, your screenshot shows exactly what I wrote.  You are not right clicking on the Smartlist and using Library Tools; you are right clicking on the actual files inside the Smartlist.  As I wrote before, I can do this in Drives & Devices without ever creating a Smartlist; once or zero times.  I'm just pointing out your shortcut actually adds one unneeded step. 

No the cover art does not have to be tagged at all UNLESS the art is not contained within the file folder with your music tracks.

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.  Please try it.  MC is actually operating exactly how it is supposed to under "Rename (moves files if directory changes)" since it is not renaming the directory, but actually creating a new one.  If your cover art image has empty tags for Album and Artist, and you ask MC to create a directory using those tags, it will only use the information it has (ie [Unknown Album] - [Unknown Artist]).

BTW, you want fast? .. don't move the artwork at all. erase it... select all your newly moved files and right click=>coverart=>save cover art to external locations

I do not see this as faster than what I am doing now in another program (click one button icon and then clicking OK).  It also does not address txt files. 

Glynor:  I appreciate it; I really do.  Like Arindelle, I never noticed the Location bar in the Add Library View window.  That now explains how I can nest in tree view like I asked here:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85215.msg582345#msg582345.  I set up a couple views and experimented with your idea, but I am not a big fan of having all my media mixed together like that.  Maybe I would get used to it over time, but I have nice maintenance views set up and grouped already that work for me.  Nonetheless, the biggest issue is it still involves importing every file into MC and tagging cover art and txt files.  I learned a lot of new things today that I'm thankful for, but nothing that replaces what some programs can do with one click or automatically. 

I still agree with MrC:

I think there really should be another mode in Rename, Move & Copy, which is just a plain ol' Directory Rename (irrespective of MC's imported items).  Users are asked too much to simply rename directories.

[fitbrit]

I think there really should be another mode in Rename, Move & Copy, which is just a plain ol' Directory Rename (irrespective of MC's imported items).  Users are asked too much to simply rename directories.

+1

[glynor]

I think there really should be another mode in Rename, Move & Copy, which is just a plain ol' Directory Rename (irrespective of MC's imported items).  Users are asked too much to simply rename directories.

I've thought about this often before.  I certainly wouldn't be opposed to this if implemented well, though I wonder what that UI would look like.  Are you thinking a version of the existing Find and Replace style mode?

Because otherwise, I don't know how it would work.  The idea seems to assume that the user would only pick files that are already "nicely segregated" before using this mode (already in a folder where everything is going to the same destination), but that's not how Rename, Move, and Copy works.  I regularly select my entire M:\Incoming\ folder, and everything it contains (subject to some filters, usually) and apply it all at once to 300-600 files.  I tag, tag, tag, tag, tag (sometimes for days at a time) and then do Control-A and do big sets of batch moves all at once.

But that M:\Incoming\ "junk" directory might have a whole swath of unrelated files in it that aren't in subdirectories.  So, it might have "cover art" for 39 different movies, for example, right in the root of M:\Incoming\.  By filename they are somewhat obviously related (often, though there are always a bunch of random .txt and .nfo files left over when I'm done with my organization, which I just delete), but how would MC know what to do in these cases?  Make copies of them everywhere?  Randomly move them to the first (or last) destination directory it happens to come upon?

And what about when the user selects something important, like their C:\Users\<username>\Documents\ folder, for example?  Or if someone accidentally tells it to move the C:\Windows\ directory or something (because they had one lone file at C:\Windows\MySong.mp3 that snuck in to the view and they didn't notice it when they did Control-A)?  I think it would need a bunch of "protective" special-cases.

Do you have a vision for how this new suggested UI would deal with stuff like that?

I ask because I think that's the reason why it doesn't have that feature, and why (if you want to just rename directories) you have to do it in Drives and Devices where you can do less damage (and operate directly on the files and folders themselves).  Solving that issue in this tool is non-trivial.

I set up a couple views and experimented with your idea, but I am not a big fan of having all my media mixed together like that.  Maybe I would get used to it over time, but I have nice maintenance views set up and grouped already that work for me.

I did forget one thing in my description (actually, probably more since I wasn't looking right at it).  My sort-order for my entire Advanced\Imports "folder view" (and all sub-views) is actually [Media Type], [Filename].  That way, images and documents sort together, usually below my audio files.

Again, it might not perfectly meet your needs... I really don't have a huge amount of stuff that I keep together like that.  Basically, just my audiobooks (which often have auxiliary files I want to keep together) and a handful of albums that have PDF liner notes that I want to keep.  I don't even keep separate cover art files (they're embedded in the file tags) unless forced.

But, I was confused by: "I am not a big fan of having all my media mixed together like that".  What does that mean?  In your maintenance view, you can filter them via the Panes on the fly (that's why I add a [Media Type] and [Media Sub Type] pane), and as I said, this wouldn't be a view you'd use for browsing your media, only for tagging and maintenance work.  That seems like an odd thing to say.  Essentially, it reads to me like: I want it to move this stuff, based on fancy rules that could cause havoc, but I don't want to see the stuff I'm moving.  Ever.  That's weird.  I'd never want that.  Way too scary for this guy.

If you were only moving things one album at a time, then I guess it would be fine, but that's an absurdly slow way to do things, IMHO.  But, to each their own I suppose.

One last thing to mention, because it is a good point.  In one of MrC's linked threads, he pointed out that you don't have to segregate these administrative views under a separate "Advanced" top-level view if you don't want to do that.  An equally valid method would be to make the Imports view-folder underneath Audio (or Images or Video or whatever) in your tree, and just de-select the Obey Parent Filters checkbox in the Customize View dialog on that folder-view.  That way, you could have separate filtering for just those views, and still "keep it together" under the top-level Audio, Images, and Video tree locations.

I don't like that personally because it confuses my Wife when she bumbles into those "advanced views".  Segregating them out of the Audio, Images, and Video top-level views allows me to keep those sections "clean" for production library browsing only, and she'll never "wander into" the Advanced top-level view.  But, if you prefer it, that's certainly possible.

[Matt]

I'm listening, but am not exactly sure what people are suggesting.

It should be fully supported to rename a folder from Drive & Devices > Explorer in the tree.

[glynor]

I'm listening, but am not exactly sure what people are suggesting.

I'm not entirely sure either.  I'm hoping MrC responds with some more detailed suggestions.

It should be fully supported to rename a folder from Drive & Devices > Explorer in the tree.

It is.  The issue is that you can't use the Rename, Move, and Copy tool to do it.  That's fully manual.  You can't say "rename these files and use the [Artist] or [Album] tags", like you can in Rename, Move, and Copy.

So, connersw has music that has associated "auxiliary files" (cover art, rip log txt files, info files, etc) that "belong with" the audio files.  He wants to use the Rename, Move, and Copy tool to move these audio files to their "final destination" long-term storage location, after tagging them in MC presumably, but when he does this, these auxiliary files don't move "with" the audio files.

Well, in most cases.  Cover art sometimes goes, but basically only if MC created the files in the first place (is this the rule?)...

Trying to solve that is the deal.  It isn't just him.  I've seen this issue come up periodically.

It is possible to "fix it" by manually tagging all of these auxiliary files with matching tags and doing Rename, Move, and Copy on them all at once.  But this requires some specialty views and a change in tagging workflow.

I'm not sure there is a clean way to fix it from within Rename, Move, and Copy, but perhaps MrC has some ideas.

[connersw]

Because otherwise, I don't know how it would work.  The idea seems to assume that the user would only pick files that are already "nicely segregated" before using this mode (already in a folder where everything is going to the same destination), but that's not how Rename, Move, and Copy works.  I regularly select my entire M:\Incoming\ folder, and everything it contains (subject to some filters, usually) and apply it all at once to 300-600 files.  I tag, tag, tag, tag, tag (sometimes for days at a time) and then do Control-A and do big sets of batch moves all at once.

But that M:\Incoming\ "junk" directory might have a whole swath of unrelated files in it that aren't in subdirectories.  So, it might have "cover art" for 39 different movies, for example, right in the root of M:\Incoming\.  By filename they are somewhat obviously related (often, though there are always a bunch of random .txt and .nfo files left over when I'm done with my organization, which I just delete), but how would MC know what to do in these cases?  Make copies of them everywhere?  Randomly move them to the first (or last) destination directory it happens to come upon?

For how you are using it, I would consider this a Move, not a rename.

And what about when the user selects something important, like their C:\Users\<username>\Documents\ folder, for example?  Or if someone accidentally tells it to move the C:\Windows\ directory or something (because they had one lone file at C:\Windows\MySong.mp3 that snuck in to the view and they didn't notice it when they did Control-A)?  I think it would need a bunch of "protective" special-cases.

Because I've already invested pretty much my whole day in this, I decided to test how Tag&Rename handles these cases.  If you try to rename C:\Windows, it gives a pop "There is nothing to do here" or something similar.  I'm not sure if this is protected by Tag&Rename or by Windows itself.  Notice that if you right click on the Windows folder in Explorer, there is no option to Rename (Program Files & Users folders also don't allow this option). 

I also tried renaming C:\Users\<username>\Documents.  While it looked like it didn't do anything in Tag&Rename, it does rename it in your Windows Library.  The My Documents folder itself stays in the User folder.  It is kind of a mess to clean up and get it straight again.  I don't recommend trying it at home. 

Bottom line, yes a user could cause some damage and there would need to be some warning pop-ups.  In my opinion though, it is not any more damaging than what a user could do themselves in Explorer.
 

Do you have a vision for how this new suggested UI would deal with stuff like that?

I don't think the UI needs to be much different from the Rename, Move & Copy Files window.  I would add an option in the drop down that reads Move (creates new directory if specified path does not exist).  This option would operate in the same way the current Rename operates.  I would change Rename to Rename (renames current file path).  This option does just that, renames the file path.  The window already includes a preview window of what you are going to do so users can see the proposed change before committing to it. 

Regarding my comment about having all my media mixed together like that, I just mean that for me it was too messy.  Even using the panes there was way too much scrolling.  I like things nicely grouped, but that is just me.  If it works for you, great.  However, I will take my "fancy rules" vs tagging, tagging, tagging days at a time.  When done correctly, these rules do not create havoc; they automate a process so you never have to do it again.

I think you summed it up nicely for Matt.  My proposal is above. 

[glynor]

For how you are using it, I would consider this a Move; not a rename.

I've tried to make this point before, but...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RENAME.  All renames ARE moves.

I also don't tag, tag, tag for days at a time.  My system is as completely automated as is humanly possible.  When I said (sometimes for days), this doesn't mean I was putting hours and hours into it (at least, not normally, and not since the bad old days), I'm usually doing one or two individual items at a time.  Little 5-minute blocks, sometimes separated by days or weeks.

Bottom line, yes a user could cause some damage and there would need to be some warning pop-ups.  In my opinion though, it is not any more damaging than what a user could do themselves in Explorer.

Sure it is!  In Explorer you can't Control-A and break every single file on your machine.  You can move files one-folder-at-a-time, and this could be a very bad folder to move (rename) if you chose poorly, but you almost certainly aren't going to do it accidentally because one (of maybe 40,000) files was in an unexpected source location.

I'm not suggesting it would be impossible to design around.  But, I've been here a long while.  I've seen people use Rename, Move, and Copy to totally hose their libraries.

I also just can't envision what it would do if you select multiple files in a common root directory that are going to different destinations.  Can you explain how your system would cope with this?  Because Rename, Move, and Copy doesn't care if the files you add to the rename list are even on the same volumes, much less in the same directories.

Because I've already invested pretty much my whole day in this, I decided to test how Tag&Rename handles these cases.  If you try to rename C:\Windows, it gives a pop "There is nothing to do here" or something similar.  I'm not sure if this is protected by Tag&Rename or by Windows itself.  Notice that if you right click on the Windows folder in Explorer, there is no option to Rename (Program Files & Users folders also don't allow this option).

That's due to permissions on your machine.

Try it on a Windows XP machine formatted to FAT32.  It'll happily let you delete or rename the Windows directory.  It won't delete or move in-use files, but everything else, and that'll be the last time it ever boots.

[connersw]

I've tried to make this point before, but...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RENAME.  All renames ARE moves.

Trust me, I get it.  But when you right click in Explorer, does it say Create New Location, Move To New Location, Delete Old Location or does it just say Rename?  What the Windows API call is doing in the background is irrelevant. 

[fitbrit]

What we'd like to see is essentially a way for MC to see that all the media files from one directory have been moved to another, and so the other files in the directory get moved too, or the contents of the whole folder is renamed (yes, I get it's a move).

So while I +1'd above, thinking about what MC is capable of and all the ways it can be used, we're actually asking the software to read our minds. Take the following examples:
An import folder that has many video files, from different TV series, plus some auxiliary files, not imported into MC.
The files will be tagged in different ways, so using a rename, move, copy (I never remember the order of the actual feature's name), might send many files to many different folders. What logic is MC supposed to use there for the auxiliary files?
However:
If all the imported contents of a folder were going to the same new folder, it might be reasonable for MC to pop up "Move non-library files to the new folder too?", and then throw out a list of what it would move (like the 'from' and 'to' sections of the rename, copy, move dialogue.
I guess this could be expanded if every directory containing media in the library was being moved to a single corresponding directory, allowing all auxiliary non-library files with them.

[glynor]

However:
If all the imported contents of a folder were going to the same new folder, it might be reasonable for MC to pop up "Move non-library files to the new folder too?", and then throw out a list of what it would move (like the 'from' and 'to' sections of the rename, copy, move dialogue.
I guess this could be expanded if every directory containing media in the library was being moved to a single corresponding directory, allowing all auxiliary non-library files with them.

Now we're getting somewhere.  That would use the existing system and it would be pretty simple and "automatic".

So, you're proposing (to be clear):

If every single file that MC knows about will be moved from a common source directory to a common destination directory, that it would prompt the user with something like "You've moved all the files from X to Y, do you also want to move any non-imported files from the source to the destination directories?"

That could work.  The only issues I can see with it are:

1. Extra pop-up confirmations are annoying and many people click through them basically at random.
2. What if MC only "knows about" one file in a particular directory?  Then, it would be "all" of them, but that would only be one out of (potentially) thousands.  Perhaps there should be some kind of minimum count to trigger it...

So, something like:

If you move 3 or more files from the same source to the same destination, and the net effect of this move would be to clear the original source directory of ALL files that MC knows about, then MC prompts to move auxiliary files.

Something like that might be pretty clean and automatic, and safe enough (I think, especially if you specifically exclude certain potentially common "accidental" cases like the user's Music, Pictures, and Video folders) that it could be implemented without a substantial downside.

[MrC]

The idea is to simplify renaming the folder path of already imported files.

It would be exactly as the tool is today, however, it would have one additional checkbox, which conveys "Show/include all files in a folder - including non-imported files".

With that box checked, the preview window will show not only the imported files, but would also show non-imported files, which for most users would be the secure rip report, additional artwork, PDFs, supplemental text files, etc.

The Rename could still be metadata-based.  In this mode non-imported files (which don't have or may not have metadata) would inherit the metadata from, say, the first imported file (i.e. typically Track 1) in a folder.  The idea being that users typically just want to change the folder paths of one or more albums.  The inheritance follows and tracks the folder path.

For glynor's mass moves, this mode probably would not be of use (esp. since you've already said you don't care about the extra text files, etc.).

I don't get the fears re: the Documents folder - do users import their entire Documents folder?  Since the tool only operates on files that are currently imported (allowing expansion to supplemental files in a folder), I don't see an issue here.

[connersw]

It would be exactly as the tool is today, however, it would have one additional checkbox, which conveys "Show/include all files in a folder - including non-imported files".

With that box checked, the preview window will show not only the imported files, but would also show non-imported files, which for most users would be the secure rip report, additional artwork, PDFs, supplemental text files, etc.

The Rename could still be metadata-based.  In this mode non-imported files (which don't have or may not have metadata) would inherit the metadata from, say, the first imported file (i.e. typically Track 1) in a folder.  The idea being that users typically just want to change the folder paths of one or more albums.  The inheritance follows and tracks the folder path.

I like this checkbox idea.  Very much so.  Better than my idea.

[glynor]

That could work, but it would be pretty blunt, and I'd be very careful with it, for sure.  I'd really hope it would have some kind of dire warning above and beyond what the normal dialog does.

The Rename could still be metadata-based.  In this mode non-imported files (which don't have or may not have metadata) would inherit the metadata from, say, the first imported file (i.e. typically Track 1) in a folder.  The idea being that users typically just want to change the folder paths of one or more albums.  The inheritance follows and tracks the folder path.

Here's where I think the pants fall down.  The sentence: "would inherit the metadata from, say, the first imported file (i.e. typically Track 1) in a folder".

I think that's a massive jump.  The vast majority of the music libraries I see "in the wild" do not look like yours or mine.  There are LOTS of people with just files dumped into one massive directory (and probably even more with those files in that directory that iTunes isn't even using because when it imported them it duplicated them and stuck them in the iTunes Library folder).

Since the tool only operates on files that are currently imported (allowing expansion to supplemental files in a folder), I don't see an issue here.

How does it know if they are supplemental, and which source files they "belong with"?  Everything in the folder?  Even if that doesn't make sense?

I don't get the fears re: the Documents folder - do users import their entire Documents folder?

I do.  I can also imagine some users just importing their entire C drive because they don't really know where the files are on their computer...  But, I concede that this is probably a small set of users, and probably not really worth worrying about.

My issue is this:  Messing with files it doesn't have "permission" to touch is a pretty giant step, and many people would probably assume that it would only apply to the files they have selected.  I'm sure when the user does have a situation with nicely organized files, and they run it, and it moves the supplementary files along, that would be a pleasant surprise.

But the opposite...

Guy has a "junk pile" folder he wants to sort out.  It is filled with a mix of MP3 files and M4A files.  Some of them are just dumped in the root of his Music folder, some are organized into subfolders, but pretty much at random.  There is also an assortment of album art JPGs (some called [Artist] - [Album].jpg in the root and some that are whatever.jpg in the subfolders), some crap nfo files he doesn't want, and some liner notes PDFs thrown in there.  Just randomly strewn.  So, they spend an afternoon half-heartedly cleaning up their tags, and then bumble into the Rename, Move, and Copy tool.  They half-understand the option and not how it works (thinking, "yeah, I want to keep that extra stuff"), and they apply the change without carefully consider the circumstances and then...

They have one folder from the band "!!!" that has most their cover art files and liner notes PDFs all renamed to "!!! - Some Album Title (32).pdf", and dumped in that one directory, with most everything else stripped of their extras?  That's pretty disastrous, and without a good backup (which no one that'd be bitten by this would have) you're pretty well totally hosed.

If it leaves them alone, you aren't hosed.  Maybe annoyed and frustrated, but not hosed.

If the argument was that it would do this "magic" for imported files that were specifically tagged somehow as supplimentary (ignore all other tags, set only [Media Sub Type] to Supplimentary, for example), then there is explicit user consent.  MC "is allowed to touch" the files, once they're imported.  But messing with stuff that isn't imported, perhaps explicitly, seems like it spells danger.

Now, you could certainly do some stuff that would make it smarter, if they did go this route:  Put some automatic sanity checks in there that stops the madness if the madness is pretty likely to be unintentional.  I don't know exactly what though.

The reason I asked is that I thought you had some way around this issue that I wasn't seeing.  Can we think of one?

[glynor]

Something Carnac-level smart could probably recognize the most common cases, while not causing the dumb.

[MrC]

As mentioned above, this mode would not be useful for the Glynor single folder dumping ground - it doesn't make sense there.  It makes sense for allowing users who have already imported files and have a folder hierarchy where an album's extra files are stored.

   - It is no different from the Folder-based or metadata-calculated views I linked to above for doing Renames with imported files (but which have disparate metadata).

   - It is no different from doing a Locate On Disk (inside Media Center) and doing a folder rename there via the Explorer tree.

The problem you're asking for solutions to is one of Sort My Mess of Files Into Meaningful Groups (so that I can rename them), but that's another, distinct problem.  And there may be some heuristics that might help this, but let's focus on the current issue.  Folks have an album full of music and ancillary files all located in a single folder, and they want is its folder path changed.  Explorer can do this.  Directory Opus can do this.  The Windows Open File dialog can do this.  Why shouldn't Media Center be able to do this (with some added intelligence, so that it can be performed on more than a single folder)?

If Media Center allows users to Import their System Drive and its files, the problem lies there, not subsequent operations such as Rename on those files.  That catastrophe happened at Auto-import configuration time, long before any rename operation would be performed.

I don't think I can agree that the majority of users have all their media files in a big pile.  Rather, the majority use tools such as iTunes, Windows Media Center, etc. which automatically keep files organized based on metadata.  So, by defacto standards, the bulk of all media files are fairly well organized, or at least grouped into related folders.  And these folks import into MC, but when they do a simple folder rename, MC leaves turds because it can't move the additional files or delete them (various jpgs created by WMC, etc.) or their non-empty containing folder.

I think I'll henceforth call you glynor.ca.  

[glynor]

I think I'll henceforth call you glynor.ca.  

Hah.  Okay, fair enough.  I might have made a mountain out of a molehill.  It just feels like a bright line to me, but perhaps it is not.

It should at least be smart enough, I think you'll agree, to think about file types and what kinds of files make sense to be auxiliary?

[MrC]

I was just bustin' your chops and having some fun.  You're still my BFF in Maine.  :-)

I can see that it would be useful to have a way to filter/disable certain file types or even patterns.  But I'd let this feature addition evolve organically, on an as-requested basis.

[glynor]

I will add, though...

I don't think I can agree that the majority of users have all their media files in a big pile.  Rather, the majority use tools such as iTunes, Windows Media Center, etc. which automatically keep files organized based on metadata.  So, by defacto standards, the bulk of all media files are fairly well organized, or at least grouped into related folders.

This part, however, is absolutely not true in my experience.

I don't know about Windows Media Center at all, but iTunes does not "keep files organized" that aren't already in the iTunes Media folder when they are imported.  It keeps that folder organized, but everything else is left where it is.  And, if you enable the option to copy files into your iTunes Media folder, it makes copies (and leaves behind the originals) so for most machines I've seen, that option is either: turned off (because they discovered all the duplicates when they ran out of hard drive space, and then found and disabled it) or it is on and they have duplicates everywhere.

I suppose this would depend on whether the people you see largely have legit (purchased in iTunes or ripped with iTunes) libraries, or (what I see) people with mixes of legit stuff and crap they got from a friend off of their cell phone or USB sticks, some old kazaa crap from 8 years ago, and junk dumped out by uTorrent.

I can't claim I have the world's largest sample size, but I am the "multimedia guy" at work, so I do encounter this stuff pretty regularly.

[MrC]

The thing I like about anecdotal evidence is that its true for everyone.

[MrC]

...but let's talk about something much more important:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/11/20/waterslide-tallest-fastest-kansas-city/3648401/

This is the definition of Terrifying.

[glynor]

I was just bustin' your chops and having some fun.  You're still my BFF in Maine.  :-)

Yeah, no... I can see it your way, for sure.  And it isn't really a deep concern because my system works quite well for me now.  If this works well, I might even switch to it from my current system for managing the junk that I do keep.

I do have a couple practical questions though:

You're thinking a checkbox over somewhere near the left-hand side that says something like "include auxiliary files from the source directory" or would it be a particular mode?  I just wonder though because all the stuff below the modes is about the destination directories, not the sources.  But whatever, I guess.

Would these files preserve existing file names for these unimported files, or would it use the Filename rule provided?  Or maybe some kind of automatic naming scheme (that seems bad to me)?

What about collisions?  Should they stay behind?  Pop up a warning?  Move anyway and append numbers?

I also definitely think they should show in the preview box, which I assume would be part of it.

PS.  I ask this stuff not to be a debbie-downer and pooh-pooh the idea.  Matt has, at least obliquely, indicated he might be willing to take a crack at the problem, and I do agree that it is a problem (the current system can work, but it takes a bunch of elbow grease at first until you get a system).

I want the solution we suggest to be well thought out (because maybe Matt will be more likely to do it) and useful.

[glynor]

The think I like about anecdotal evidence is that its true for everyone.

Exactly.  I can only speak from my own experience.  You're right, it might not correlate to wider trends.  But I'd bet you $5 it does.