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[flac.rules]

I tried to play some 4k-files, an although i would call my PC reasonably beefy (dedicated GPU, 4-core i7 (albeit an old model), playback was choppy, and CPU-usage high. Could red october use more GPU-power? Is there another way to handle it? (and can i make a rule that changes from RO HQ to RO Standard if resolution is high?, btw i was not able to get nice playback even with RO standard).

[Hendrik]

If you have hardware acceleration video decoding activated, you should turn it off. The video decoders in the GPU are usually too slow for 4K content, and your CPU can do a better job at it.

Other then that, you will need quite a beefy GPU to use ROHQ with 4K, and of course a CPU that can software-decode.

[flac.rules]

Well, as  mentioned, It doesn't run properly in RO standard either. Hardware decoding seems to do nothing, it neither changes the framedrops or CPU-usage in any meaningful way.

Why do i need a beefy GPU if I am doing software decoding?

[jmone]

There are two parts to the video playback:
- Decoding (which can use GPU or CPU) and as suggested by Hendrik you are best with HW Decoding OFF
- Rendering which can use madVR (ROHQ) but this requires a fast GPU on the default settings

Do you have a link to the 4K video you are trying to use and I can test?

Thanks
Nathan

[flac.rules]

Here is the 4k test-file

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9848065/4k_test.mkv

[jmone]

Quick test on a i7-3770K with a nvidia GTX760 both are factory OC'ed (I get around 5K on the JR Benchmark) and all settings play the clip fine with:
- RO (with and without HW Acceleration) : average 60% CPU, 1% GPU Utilisation
- ROHQ (with and without HW Acceleration) : average 70% CPU, 12% GPU Utilisation

Note: When starting playback it hits 100% on the CPU and you get a bit of a stutter then it settles down just fine.

I have a couple other lower speced PC's I can try.

[Hendrik]

Why do i need a beefy GPU if I am doing software decoding?

Because decoding is only part of the whole process.
The video renderer needs GPU power to process images, and with 4K, it needs a lot of GPU power.

I would suggest to watch CPU and GPU usage during playback, it'll show you if your PC is fast enough.
For GPU usage, i would recommend GPU-Z to monitor it.

Since you haven't told us which GPU you actually have, i can only assume its simply too slow.

[flac.rules]

Because decoding is only part of the whole process.
The video renderer needs GPU power to process images, and with 4K, it needs a lot of GPU power.

I would suggest to watch CPU and GPU usage during playback, it'll show you if your PC is fast enough.
For GPU usage, i would recommend GPU-Z to monitor it.

Since you haven't told us which GPU you actually have, i can only assume its simply too slow.

I can check, but I don't think the GPU is the problem, its a Nvidia GTX 670, and that is a pretty powerful GPU.

[flac.rules]

Quick test on a i7-3770K with a nvidia GTX760 both are factory OC'ed (I get around 5K on the JR Benchmark) and all settings play the clip fine with:
- RO (with and without HW Acceleration) : average 60% CPU, 1% GPU Utilisation
- ROHQ (with and without HW Acceleration) : average 70% CPU, 12% GPU Utilisation

Note: When starting playback it hits 100% on the CPU and you get a bit of a stutter then it settles down just fine.

I have a couple other lower speced PC's I can try.

I get around 80-90% with RO, and some problems with sync between picture and audio because of it. I guess our results are pretty similar, seeing as you have a very powerful CPU, however is there a way to get the CPU-usage down? Can RO get optimized for this? The CPU-usage is already pushing it even on powerful CPUs, and with h.265 it will likely be worse.

[flac.rules]

I checked the GPU utilization, it was around 2% with RO, no matter if hardware acceleration was checked or not.

[jmone]

Hendrik is the Author of LAV Filters that is used by RO for video decoding so he is really the best placed to answer this.... but it seems your clip really stresses the CPU more than the GPU.

Edit: it would also seem that there is no HW Acceleration happening with decoding this format.

[Hendrik]

Your test clip is extremely high bitrate, even my overclocked i7-4770k can't decode it fast enough. PCs are just too slow to handle such clips today.
It doesn't help that the clip is actually higher resolution then the normal "consumer" 4K, which would be 3840x2160, while yours is 4096x1714 (which is 4K in cinema-scope)

Luckily, this is not the video format that 4K will be in once it goes big. There is a new video codec called HEVC, which is more efficient and optimized for 4K, which will allow more systems to play it, while also making files smaller.

[flac.rules]

Your test clip is extremely high bitrate, even my overclocked i7-4770k can't decode it fast enough. PCs are just too slow to handle such clips today.
It doesn't help that the clip is actually higher resolution then the normal "consumer" 4K, which would be 3840x2160, while yours is 4096x1714 (which is 4K in cinema-scope)

Luckily, this is not the video format that 4K will be in once it goes big. There is a new video codec called HEVC, which is more efficient and optimized for 4K, which will allow more systems to play it, while also making files smaller.

There seems to be very little work for the GPU going on, would it be possible to offload more to the GPU in clips like this?

And are you sure the new format causes lower CPU-usage? I'm sure you know more about this than me, but my experience is that better compressing newer formats uses more CPU, not less. It seems to be the case in other parts of computing to, the more something is compressed, the harder the CPU is strained. This clip also is just 24p, waht about if we get 48p in the future, or even 120p? I am a bit concerned that if i buy a new HTPC now, it won't be able to play all 4k-material without problems in the future.

[Hendrik]

There seems to be very little work for the GPU going on, would it be possible to offload more to the GPU in clips like this?

No, not without the GPU explicitly supporting it, and such high resolutions are not supported by todays GPUs.

And are you sure the new format causes lower CPU-usage? I'm sure you know more about this than me, but my experience is that better compressing newer formats uses more CPU, not less.

A major factor in the CPU usage is the amount of data is actually has to decode. Newer codecs can delivery the same quality at a lower bitrate, which means less data to decode, less work for the entropy coder, which takes up significant amount of time. On 1080p content, the new codec will be slower, however, being tuned for 4K, it can do it more efficiently and with less CPU.

I am a bit concerned that if i buy a new HTPC now, it won't be able to play all 4k-material without problems in the future.

I can already tell you that you will most definitely not be able to play all of the 4K material in the future.
Like i mentioned above, i have a i7-4770k, which is about the fatest mainstream CPU you could buy, so unless you want to spend some serious money on workstation/server-grade hardware, the clip you posted still is too much.

[Sparks67]

Your test clip is extremely high bitrate, even my overclocked i7-4770k can't decode it fast enough. PCs are just too slow to handle such clips today.
It doesn't help that the clip is actually higher resolution then the normal "consumer" 4K, which would be 3840x2160, while yours is 4096x1714 (which is 4K in cinema-scope)

Correct!  The current electronics are too slow, but if you add in Thunderbolt.   A faster video card, and some thunderbolt components.   Rocket from RED is a bit expensive, but this article is from 2012.  Look what this little Mac book Air can do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKx-cr4bi74

Luckily, this is not the video format that 4K will be in once it goes big. There is a new video codec called HEVC, which is more efficient and optimized for 4K, which will allow more systems to play it, while also making files smaller.

Actually, h.264 is the current video codec for 4k and was used during the UHDTV on the Olympics with UHDTV2 or 8k.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/researchanddevelopment/2012/08/the-olympics-in-super-hi-visio.shtml  HEVC is only one part of the new ecosystem that has to be developed for 4k and 8k.  

[Sparks67]

Delete

[Sparks67]

No, not without the GPU explicitly supporting it, and such high resolutions are not supported by todays GPUs.

According to Nvida, the "All GeForce GTX 600 and 700 series GPUs can support 4K resolutions through DisplayPort. The NVIDIA driver automatically detects 4K 60Hz tiled format, so no special user set up is required. In order to power games at this resolution with settings turned up NVIDIA recommends GTX 780 SLI or better."

https://developer.nvidia.com/4k-ultra-high-resolution-development

I can already tell you that you will most definitely not be able to play all of the 4K material in the future.
Like i mentioned above, i have a i7-4770k, which is about the fatest mainstream CPU you could buy, so unless you want to spend some serious money on workstation/server-grade hardware, the clip you posted still is too much.

Well, another option is just upgrade your motherboard with this card.  http://blogs.intel.com/technology/2013/11/intel-announces-thunderbolt-ready-upgrade-program-for-pc-motherboards-desktops-and-workstation-computers/ or just buy a new Mac Pro or there is a few companies that are selling 4k ready htpc's for windows.

If you want to upgrade your video card, then wait till Nvida releases their next gen with Maxwell architecture.  Why?  The most recent news is that it will have HDMI 2.0 in it, so you want both Display Port 1.2 and HDMI 2.0.   This will give you the most connection options.  The latest AMD only has HDMI 1.4.   

[Hendrik]

According to Nvida, the "All GeForce GTX 600 and 700 series GPUs can support 4K resolutions through DisplayPort. The NVIDIA driver automatically detects 4K 60Hz tiled format, so no special user set up is required. In order to power games at this resolution with settings turned up NVIDIA recommends GTX 780 SLI or better."

Thats 4K output, not decoding. The problem is the processing power required to decode high bitrate 4K clips, since H.264 is rather expensive to decode at such high resolutions.
CPUs can do it if your clip is not extremely high bitrate like the sample posted above, GPUs can do it to a certain degree, but 4K decoding on the GPU is still extremely slow, as well.

The entire issue here is too slow decoding, not 4K output.

HEVC will make that better, and any serious wide-spread broadcasts will gladly switch to it in the coming years, because it saves them expensive bandwidth. Yes, we're not there yet, and they do tech-demo streams in H.264 today, but I seriously doubt its going to stick like this. And until we see widespread HEVC, there will also be no widespread 4K broadcasts besides some special events.

Well, another option is just upgrade your motherboard with this card.  http://blogs.intel.com/technology/2013/11/intel-announces-thunderbolt-ready-upgrade-program-for-pc-motherboards-desktops-and-workstation-computers/ or just buy a new Mac Pro or there is a few companies that are selling 4k ready htpc's for windows.

Thunderbolt has nothing to do with this. It won't help you play your 4K video, if your CPU is too slow.
Thunderbolt is just a new connection, like USB. It doesn't make your PC faster, at all.

The demo video you posted just uses a professional-grade external video processor, hardly relevant for anyone that wants to just watch video.
In fact, the video feels like an ad for REDs hardware. I know of no external decoder like this for consumer use, and I doubt you'll see one. NextGen GPUs will probably just improve decoding performance, and maybe add HEVC (which may be one generation further in the future).

[bulldogger]

It doesn't help that the clip is actually higher resolution then the normal "consumer" 4K, which would be 3840x2160, while yours is 4096x1714 (which is 4K in cinema-scope)

Luckily, this is not the video format that 4K will be in once it goes big. There is a new video codec called HEVC, which is more efficient and optimized for 4K, which will allow more systems to play it, while also making files smaller.

I hope that cinemascope 4K is supported. I am curious as to what type of display the TS intends to use. Wow, I wish I could get 4K cinemascope on my screen!

[bulldogger]

Here's a link to the movie "Tears of Steel."  If you select original quality it's 4k but you have the option of 1080p,720p, and 480p. Interesting comparing the different resolutions. I don't have a 4k monitor however. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OHOpb2fS-cM I am guess the 4K is the planned consumer version?

[Sparks67]

HEVC will make that better, and any serious wide-spread broadcasts will gladly switch to it in the coming years, because it saves them expensive bandwidth. Yes, we're not there yet, and they do tech-demo streams in H.264 today, but I seriously doubt its going to stick like this. And until we see widespread HEVC, there will also be no widespread 4K broadcasts besides some special events.

The broadcasters don't want to upgrade yet.  Most are still using Mpeg 2.  The ATSC 3.0 standard is set to be revised in late 2015, so you probably seem adoption by some broadcasters in 2016. 

The demo video you posted just uses a professional-grade external video processor, hardly relevant for anyone that wants to just watch video.
In fact, the video feels like an ad for REDs hardware. I know of no external decoder like this for consumer use, and I doubt you'll see one. NextGen GPUs will probably just improve decoding performance, and maybe add HEVC (which may be one generation further in the future).

Anyone can use a professional video card for video.  I seen examples of people using a AMD Firepro Professional cards for an HTPC.  Cost is relatively similar to high end consumer gamer card.  The only difference is the Professional cards have displayport on them.  The lower end FirePro cards are actually fanless, so you can use them in a silent htpc.  So you need a TV with DisplayPort, and Panasonic has released this one with HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort.  https://panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/lcd/TCL65WT600.asp  Most consumers don't know that they can buy Professional/business models for their TV, so they just go to the local BestBuy and pick a consumer model.  My local Home theater (Hi-Fi) store has the Professional models.  Cost is much higher, but you do have that option.   If I recall correctly, HEVC has a 2 tier model or it was discussed in the past in their spec.  I have to dig that up, but on another forum they posted the HEVC spec.    If you play games and need HDMI, then you are stuck with the consumer model. 

NextGen GPUs will probably just improve decoding performance, and maybe add HEVC (which may be one generation further in the future).

Possibile around 2015.  I would have to look at Intel Roadmap for 2015.

[Hendrik]

The broadcasters don't want to upgrade yet.  Most are still using Mpeg 2.  The ATSC 3.0 standard is set to be revised in late 2015, so you probably seem adoption by some broadcasters in 2016.

No, because upgrading means consumers need new hardware as well, and thats always a pain to sell them.
Its still years away, but so is widespread 4K, since its the same problem - needs updated hardware for the consumer to get any benefit.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about 4K capability of your HTPC yet. There is no real content available outside of rare demo material, and while you can spend thousands on a high-end machine that may (or may not) be able to deal with future 4K formats properly, just waiting a year or two until content actually shows up will also allow you to buy much cheaper hardware. If you actually happen to have a 4K display already, a good GPU is all you need to convert the 1080p content to 4K for the display with MC's RO HQ mode, for example. Handling actual 4K content however is another beast entirely.

And don't get sucked in by the "professional" or "business" hardware. A professional GPU isn't actually faster then a consumer GPU, it just has a slightly different feature set. Heck, my consumer GPUs have a DisplayPort if thats whats you are after. Even the Intel integrated GPU on my mainboard has a DisplayPort, and that one basically comes for free.

In short, PCs are not completely ready for playback of all 4K content thats out there. But its getting there. Software is being optimized for it, hardware is getting faster, new codecs are being developed.
Its certainly an exciting time if you like that kind of thing. Even if my own hardware, which is pretty high-end, can't keep up with all the content, its nice to see it grow and get better!

[flac.rules]

No, because upgrading means consumers need new hardware as well, and thats always a pain to sell them.
Its still years away, but so is widespread 4K, since its the same problem - needs updated hardware for the consumer to get any benefit.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about 4K capability of your HTPC yet. There is no real content available outside of rare demo material, and while you can spend thousands on a high-end machine that may (or may not) be able to deal with future 4K formats properly, just waiting a year or two until content actually shows up will also allow you to buy much cheaper hardware. If you actually happen to have a 4K display already, a good GPU is all you need to convert the 1080p content to 4K for the display with MC's RO HQ mode, for example. Handling actual 4K content however is another beast entirely.

Well, I would like my HTPC to work not only at this point when i by noe, but also 4-5 years into the future

[Hendrik]

Sadly we're at a time right now where the outlook in the future is a bit unclear and there is no clear recommendation how to stay future-proof. Widespread 4K may as well be 4-5 years out and you never encounter the problem, or it may appear in 2015/16, and your 2 year old HTPC struggles. No-one knows.

[Sparks67]

No, because upgrading means consumers need new hardware as well, and thats always a pain to sell them.
Its still years away, but so is widespread 4K, since its the same problem - needs updated hardware for the consumer to get any benefit.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/technology/broadcasters-operators-hevc-new-main-squeeze/49950

Actually, this is one of several articles that they refuse to upgrade their equipment.  "Business models that would justify replacing existing
compression equipment pose another problem. It has been more than 10 years since the introduction of the H.264/AVC standard, yet more than 100 million set-top
boxes use the previous MPEG-2 standard still in multichannel homes in the U.S.   There needs to be a strong business case for them to replace that infrastructure,” says Fabio Murra, head
of portfolio marketing for compression at Ericsson. He adds that ongoing improvements in the performance of MPEG-2 and AVC solutions might reduce the appeal of HEVC in the short- and near-term.
“Ten years after AVC was introduced, the industry is still improving it,” notes Claude Perron, the CTO of Thomson Video Networks. Broadcast will also take time. The current broadcast
ATSC standard uses MPEG-2, and the upcoming ATSC 2.0 broadcast standard will mark the first move to AVC. HEVC is not expected to be incorporated into the standard until the release of the ATSC 3.0 standard
in late 2015."

[Sparks67]

Sadly we're at a time right now where the outlook in the future is a bit unclear and there is no clear recommendation how to stay future-proof. Widespread 4K may as well be 4-5 years out and you never encounter the problem, or it may appear in 2015/16, and your 2 year old HTPC struggles. No-one knows.

Well, you can't do 4k with Haswell and LGA1150 motherboard, but there is another option.  The Apple Mac Pro and most of the 4k gaming is done with LGA 2011 Motherboard and Ivy Bridge-E Cpu.   Apple's motherboard is custom design, but it also uses LGA2011 and Ivy Bridge-E Xeon processors.  GPU, you need at least 2 high end GPU's.  This is not your typical HTPC.  Also the all the current LGA 2011 motherboards don't have Thunderbolt.  With 4k you need to plan to have large amounts of storage space.  Another option is to use Raid card with SAS expander.  http://www.sasexpanders.com/  There is also some new hard drives coming for 4k and 8k  http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/20/seagate-terabit-barrier-60t/  Seagate and Western Digital have these on the future road map.   

[Adhara]

It would be fine in the future to have much more CPU oriented algorithms for video stuff.
More and more people are moving to a fanless/waf HTPC thats needs to run only with the Intel CPU and its own dedicated GPU (HD4000 for now).

Hendrik, is this is the way we will follow with MC ?

[Hendrik]

The CPU is usually not very good at video stuff.
Decoding video is OK, but any processing of the video is much faster on the GPU, since its specifically build to deal with video, so thats what will always be the focus.

Decoding will always offer a choice of CPU or GPU decoding if available (because it runs on dedicated decoding hardware in the GPU).
Video processing is something that will not have this choice. Processing runs on the general purpose shader hardware, and is many times faster than a CPU, so you wouldn't want it there either - and even Intels GPU can do this faster then Intels CPU.

[Adhara]

Ok so can you plz suggest a low profile video card that can do a better job than the hd4000 GPU, for vidéo processing?
For now and with help with hd4000, i can use lanczos 3 taps for chroma, not jincs 3taps.
Thx

[Sparks67]

Henderick,

Another new cable standard coming for the TV's and video cards.   DisplayPort 1.3  http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2013/12/3/displayport-13-to-support-8k2c-standard-expected-in-q2-2014.aspx