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[JJJ]

Yup.  Red October HQ's regular settings / Lanzcos run fine without a dedicated GPU if the CPU is up-to-date (even low 35W TDP versions e.g. i5 4570T).  It doesn't beat the Oppo.

[mattkhan]

Fundamentally this is a marketing issue isn't it? The perception of potential noise will be enough to put that audience off whether it is real or not given there seem to be plenty of products that don't have that "problem".

[jmone]

I have the NUC 2820 and an SPL Meter.  If you want I can measure how loud it is (or is not).  Let me know the test parameters you want.

0db

I'll test later tonight when it is quieter to see how noticeable the fan is on stock settings but you can turn off the FAN altogether and get a 100% Passive NUC.  I've updated my review with more info.

EDIT - Updated review after pushing the little NUC for a few hours with no fans.

[apgood]

Personally I find that whether or not you can run a passively cooled PC depends where you live (I.e. climate) and whether or not you have air con. I live in Sydney Australia like jmone but don't have air con (just ceiling fans) this means while in winter a passively cooled PC would be fine, in summer it would be no go.  (Lol even though I find Sydney a bit too cold most of the time).

Having said that I do notice fan noise easily and regularly clean / replace fans and have them running at the slowest speeds possible for the amount of cooling I need, but then you probably at the very least need to clean passively cooled PC's on a regular basis as well to ensure optimal airflow and cooling.

I would say from jriver's perspective that if they intend to create a product that targets potential customers from a wide range climates then active cooling at least needs to be an option.

[astromo]

I live in Brisbane, so temps are typically warmer than Sydney, and run a passively cooled case plus my place isn't blessed with A/C.

I've got my PC in a HiFi stack with plenty of natural convection potential. I'm running ROSTD, so even on video playback and employing a low TDP CPU the unit tracks along well within recommended temperature limits. The system excludes a graphics card so I've made some build compromises but it works for me.

I've gone for minimalism that echoes Henry Ford, who is supposed to have said "What you don't fit costs nothing and needs no maintenance". Admittedly, heat and cooking the CPU are a risk but I reckon I've got a reasonable balance.

This discussion has forked from a piece of Intel NUC based JRiver hardware and the key question, in my view, is which market will this product typically target? I suspect that most adopters of MC come in via the audio path rather than video, TV or image and then audio. Many of the discerning audiophile or fringe audiophile population will probably hold at least an initial aversion to hardware that incorporates a fan.

The base market treatment alternatives available are that you can do what many seem to be trying to do here and convince this market sector that they've got it wrong or you can offer choice, e.g.

• Entry level audio and general purpose video - would get the base NUC unit with fan
• Audiophile level - gets NUC hardware with a fanless case (attracts a price premium)

Here's one that jmone prepared earlier to provide an example of what's available off the shelf ... today:

http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/abel-h2-chassis/

That kind of presentation should also satisfy an audiophile's desire for cool looking gear that matches their existing stack. Looks should not be underestimated. Brands in this "space", like Sonos, forked their design heritage from Apple (if I'm right) and they applied that education to advantage.

The cues are there. It's just a case of whether there is a desire to pick up on them. Overlooking them may come at the cost of missing out on the market the product is attempting to reach.

[apgood]

Agreed Brisbane is warmer and more humid (grew up in Brissy), so if it's possible to have a low power / TDP PC there then it should be most places, but if you are wanting to do more demanding Video playback using ROHQ with higher settings you might still have issues if your are wanting to use hardware similar to what's in Gigabyte BRIX Pro (i.e. i7-4770R with iris pro hd 5200) the NUC form factor might be an issue for passive cooling as the anandtech review stated the was throttling under heavy load even with a fan.

Guess it comes down to compromises (I.e. performance vs form factor / size vs type of cooling vs cost) and whether the target customer is just audiophiles or others that are after video using with some of the more demanding MadVR goodies....

[jmone]

0db

I'll test later tonight when it is quieter to see how noticeable the fan is on stock settings but you can turn off the FAN altogether and get a 100% Passive NUC.  I've updated my review with more info.

EDIT - Updated review after pushing the little NUC for a few hours with no fans.

Ok - My sound metre does not go below 50DB so I calibrated one for the phone (for what it is worth), and according to that we had a room down to around the low 30DB, but it was unable to detect the difference with the NUC On or Off....and until this test I've never noticed how "loud" birds tweeting can be!  We even had to turn off a fridge in an adjacent room as it was producing more "noise" than the NUC.  

So my "real" SPL was my teenage son (you know the ones that play those high pitched sounds on the phone we oldies can not hear!).  

Interestingly he could not hear the fan at all till I got him to listen to right at the back of the NUC to register the sound, then move back till he could not hear it.  Once he was focused on the sound he could hear it at the default 3,000 rpm anywhere in the room (max 4m).... as long as you held your breath or there was not any other noise (like those birds that kept tweeting!).  I'd say it was the equivalent of someone breathing but like a more constant exhale (so less intrusive).  When I turned the fan down to 670 RPM he was unable to hear it at any range (say outside putting your ear next to the port to 30cm).  Obviously with the fan off there was no noise at all though he thought that with his ear pressed to the case there may have been the odd tick (expansion?).

So my summary on the NUC 2820 sound pressure levels is:
- Default Settings: Perfectly Fine for the vast majority of users, esp in normal rooms with any ambient noise.  In such environments I'd rate it is inaudible at normal seating distances.
- Tweak to lower (or no) RMP: Ideal for those sensitive to any noise in very quiet rooms.  The NUC will happily run at minimum RPM with 100% load but I found with this load and the fan off, it would trip the thermal trap and throttle the CPU after an hour or so (heat soak).

To me it is an intriguing unit as it is:
- Cheap
- Small
- Good connectivity
- Powerful enough to Run a full blown MC instance for all audio and video (RO Std) playback
- Low power draw
- Quiet at stock fan speeds and inaudible if you tweak the speeds.

You could get the more powerful i3/i5 NUC and the fancy (but beautiful) passive Aluminium Case from Tranquil but it is then triple the cost, though value is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.  

I've updated my review on this.

Hope it helps.

[astromo]

You could get the more powerful i3/i5 NUC and the fancy (but beautiful) passive Aluminium Case from Tranquil but it is then triple the cost, though value is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.  

Seriously, that Al NUC case looks way pro ... sound AND vision ... that's a winner.. 

Ok - My sound metre does not go below 50DB so I calibrated one for the phone (for what it is worth), and according to that we had a room down to around the low 30DB ...

That sound measuring device must be calibrated to SI standard .. and from a guy (who quite rightly, I might add) refers to the 'C' in MC as Centre.

A fixation perhaps?   

Just blame auto correct and tell us you were working from a tablet (I would) ... 

[jmone]

I know!  The case looks great and I wish they would make one for the 2820!  I'd drop the A$150 on it no probs just because!  ... and I agree on the SPL app - waste of time but that is all I had to get any measurement as my real SPL does not go lower - so I calibrated it vs my SPL metre at 60 DB so they read the same.

Also not an error on the "re" vs "er" (but why miss an opportunity to tease the Yanks!)  

Metre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre‎
The metre (International spelling as used by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures)

[spiggytopes]

About Shuttle computers - I'm a fan from way back, and have just assembled an SH16V

http://us.shuttle.com/barebone/Models/XH61V.html

It has an external fanless power supply , looks sweet and is silent. Two small fans internally and a liquid heat-sink.

Unfortunately, the optical output only goes up to 96kHz (other Shuttles reach 192), but otherwise is perfect (for me anyway).

[jmone]

I'm also a big fan of the SFF and I'm on my Third version for my main HTPC as you can cram a full blown GPU into them.  The NUC however is a different form factor again. 

[JimH]

jmone,
Very useful and informative.  Thank you, your son, and the birds.

Jim

[AndrewFG]

Personally I find that whether or not you can run a passively cooled PC depends where you live (I.e. climate) and whether or not you have air con. I live in Sydney Australia like jmone but don't have air con (just ceiling fans) this means while in winter a passively cooled PC would be fine, in summer it would be no go.  (Lol even though I find Sydney a bit too cold most of the time).

Having said that I do notice fan noise easily and regularly clean / replace fans and have them running at the slowest speeds possible for the amount of cooling I need, but then you probably at the very least need to clean passively cooled PC's on a regular basis as well to ensure optimal airflow and cooling.

If you have air-con or ceiling fans running, the extra silence from not having a fan in the HTPC, would be (well) stunning...  

+++

If you are looking for a CPU cooler fan with the lowest possible noise level, you need to look at the Austrian company Noctua, who specializes in this.
I have a Noctua fan in my home built HTPC. It was expensive but certainly well worth it.

http://www.noctua.at/

[bulldogger]

I wouldn't go that far. You can get decent video out of a NUC. It cannot run at the max settings of RO HQ, but it can still run medium to high quality, which is already a  great improvement over RO Std and easily on-par with standalone devices.

No. It's no match for the Oppo 103. The only area are subtitles which are superior. In every other category the Oppo clearly has a better picture. I have done the comparison on 4 different televisons now at my buddies an my home.  It's better than my 2006 Panasonic BD-10 player. I am determined to BEAT the Oppo no matter what. I know for certain you can not do that with passive cooling or low performance card. Really some might just want to buy the Oppo, with no fans and run the passively cooled HTPC through the Oppo. It's that good on video. But again, I am determined to beat it.

[bulldogger]

Personally I find that whether or not you can run a passively cooled PC depends where you live (I.e. climate) and whether or not you have air con. I live in Sydney Australia like jmone but don't have air con (just ceiling fans) this means while in winter a passively cooled PC would be fine, in summer it would be no go.  (Lol even though I find Sydney a bit too cold most of the time).

Having said that I do notice fan noise easily and regularly clean / replace fans and have them running at the slowest speeds possible for the amount of cooling I need, but then you probably at the very least need to clean passively cooled PC's on a regular basis as well to ensure optimal airflow and cooling.

I would say from jriver's perspective that if they intend to create a product that targets potential customers from a wide range climates then active cooling at least needs to be an option.

I agree.  However, with audiophiles, fans will be a problem regardless of whether it is even audible. The subject of fans and HTPCs came up at friend's home recently, a fellow audiophile though I don't think I'm totally in the club. He was really upset at the idea of fans when I mentioned building an HTPC for him and myself. I pointed out that the television set he has owned has a fan, as well as his Blu-ray player in and second player in his audio system, an Oppo 95. He'd never really taken notice of the Oppo and that it had a fan in the several years he's owned it. Now, this is  BIG problem. He's buying the Oppo 105 now because it does not have a fan. He's a former musician and there is no way his damaged hearing could ever hear the fan. Everything is always so loud in his set-up.

Think about it. There are fights about power cables, flac vs wav, memory playback. These are things that it is difficult to prove have an effect. A fan?! Something you can see spinning and place your ear so close to it that you CAN hear it? There is no way, even a fan that has less noise than human breathing will be acceptable for many audiophiles. Just the though of a fan will be too much.

I decided to buy, well I ordered one, a Noiseblocker fan to test myself, like I have done with power cables, speaker cables, and various other thing, to see first hand. Sometimes the audiophiles are right even when I can't explain why. Like with the HDMI out of the Oppo. My lap top sounds significantly better outputting JRiver over HDMI than does the Oppo. Power cables?? My buddy is still angry with me because I refuse to try for a second time the power cords that cost several thousand dollars in my system. Tried them, heard no difference. I was DONE. Now he's like," You think I'm stupid with these power cords." I don't say anything. I just look. What I really want to do is give him my best Scooby Doo laugh, eeeeee hehehhehehe, eeeee hehehhehe, and tell him what what he already knows I think.

[astromo]

I don't say anything. I just look. What I really want to do is give him my best Scooby Doo laugh, eeeeee hehehhehehe, eeeee hehehhehe, and tell him what what he already knows I think.

Scoob is such a cool dog.

The rest of your anecdote is an excellent example of why there's sense in not fighting when you've got a person who's commited to their beliefs, regardless of the evidence put in front of them. So, Oppo offer choice of a fan equipped and fanless unit with the latter selling at a premium. Consumer wins, Oppo wins, friend of consumer chuckles away like a cartoon character .. that last bit sounds like a win to me .. everyone's happy... 

[6233638]

Power cables?? My buddy is still angry with me because I refuse to try for a second time the power cords that cost several thousand dollars in my system. Tried them, heard no difference. I was DONE. Now he's like," You think I'm stupid with these power cords."

Sounds like he isn't convinced and was looking for validation.

[bulldogger]

Ok, I recieved a very quiet fan, the Noiseblocker M12-s1. They rate it at at about 8db. I cut the wires and hooked it directly up to my 12 volt Radio Shack power supply. Well, I can hear it. I got crazy and went into a closet, shut the door and put the fan into the corner on the floor.   I can hear low fan noise, typical fan motor noise, at about 1 foot. At 3 feet or so, I can not hear the fan. To put this into perspective, I can hear my two fingers, my thumb and forefinger rubbing gently together at arms length. I can not hear the fan at that distance. I think for a fan like this to be audible at any reasonable distance it would need some "help", in the form of a secondary object like a shelf of something creating a resonance. Even the act of sipping some coffee or a picking up a glass and setting it down will be louder than that fan. My external hard drivers are considerably more noisy as well. There is some "audiophile" in me that wishes I could not hear the fan at any distance even if it's not audible at 3 feet to my ears.

[Hendrik]

Fans in a PC usually don't run at 100%, try running it at 7V instead.

[6233638]

I cut the wires and hooked it directly up to my 12 volt Radio Shack power supply. Well, I can hear it.

These two things are related.
 
New fans will use pulse-width modulation (PWM) to control the fan-speed rather than always running at 12V or dropping the voltage to control the speed.
This allows them to hit much lower RPMs without stalling. My 1200 RPM Noctuas will only hit about 600 RPM minimum speed if I drop the voltages, but will go down to 300 RPM when PWM is used to control the fan speed.
 
Noctua fans are the only ones which I have heard so far that I would call close to being "silent".
Every other fan I have used has some kind of obvious mechanical noise, whether they are being voltage controlled or PWM controller.
As far as PWM fans go, the Noctuas are the only ones I can tolerate. With all the other PWM fans I have used, I hear a "pulsing" noise as the speed is reduced and I preferred to drop the voltage instead, even though that meant running at a higher RPM.
 
If you don't need much in the way of cooling, these running at 300 RPM are by far the quietest fans I have found: http://noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=57&lng=en
They are designed for quiet airflow rather than static pressure, so they probably won't do a great job on a heatsink.

[BillT]

The rest of your anecdote is an excellent example of why there's sense in not fighting when you've got a person who's commited to their beliefs, regardless of the evidence put in front of them. So, Oppo offer choice of a fan equipped and fanless unit with the latter selling at a premium. Consumer wins, Oppo wins, friend of consumer chuckles away like a cartoon character .. that last bit sounds like a win to me .. everyone's happy... 

This thread is quite an amusing example of mutual incomprehension.

Someone who lives in a house with noisy air conditioning and ceiling fans and listens to low dynamic range music is obviously not going to be bothered by fan noise.

If you listen in a quiet environment to music which occasionally has a wide dynamic range it is perfectly reasonable to expect audiophile (allegedly) equipment to make no audible mechanical (usually mains hum) or electronic noise, whatever the source. Of course there are is lots of expensive audio equipment that fails this requirement, which demonstrates that a lot of buyers (possibly most) don't care, for whatever reason.

Personally, apart from loudspeakers, none of my equipment is in the room where I listen. Partly because of the possibility of mechanical noise, but mainly because it's an eyesore. My JRiver computer (which is an ordinary PC with a quiet, but not silent, fan) is in the garage.

If this device is aimed at the mass market, a fan is fine. If it's aimed at a small sector of the audiophile market it would be sensible to make a fan optional, although, given the tiny market of those who would care, it probably isn't worth bothering with them!

I do find the posts implying that anyone concerned about mechanical noise is imagining things somewhat bizarre. I know that fans are usually audible but I am well aware that fans can be quiet to the point of inaudibility if implemented carefully. Experience shows that such implementation is very rare.

If you want to poke fun at audiophiles' mistaken perceptions you could start with this http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88100.0. Record companies reselling music that would be perfectly adequately carried in a properly dithered 10 bit 32kHz channel being sold at 24 bit 96kHz.

[jmone]

I think that is right.  There are several market segments and each have their own requirements (and potential volumes).  When/if JR release a product it will find it's own market (or fail).

[bulldogger]

Fans in a PC usually don't run at 100%, try running it at 7V instead.

The Noiseblocker M12-s1 only runs at one speed 750rpm. Some of the other variants will change speed but the speed settings are all higher rpm, if memory serves than 750. I knew this going in. It will not start at some lower voltages, you will only run at that speed from what I read. It's a quite fan. I think I could stand at 3 or 4 feet and turn it on and off and most people might here the switch I was using, but I doubt they would hear the fan.

[astromo]

This thread is quite an amusing example of mutual incomprehension.

...

If this device is aimed at the mass market, a fan is fine. If it's aimed at a small sector of the audiophile market it would be sensible to make a fan optional, although, given the tiny market of those who would care, it probably isn't worth bothering with them!

I do find the posts implying that anyone concerned about mechanical noise is imagining things somewhat bizarre. I know that fans are usually audible but I am well aware that fans can be quiet to the point of inaudibility if implemented carefully. Experience shows that such implementation is very rare.

If you want to poke fun at audiophiles' mistaken perceptions you could start with this http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88100.0. Record companies reselling music that would be perfectly adequately carried in a properly dithered 10 bit 32kHz channel being sold at 24 bit 96kHz.

Well put.

Personally, my HTPC is fanless and it sits on the top shelf of my HiFi stack in the living room.

I've seen and read plenty of forum discussions around the interweb full of technobabble for views for and against a particular issue or idea. My intent wasn't to poke fun at anyone in particular. If I'm poking fun, it's probably at myself but I wasn't necessarily spelling it out.

My offering was to ask why not provide a choice and respect the decision of the consumer to make a product selection that satisfy the views and beliefs they hold personally? I think that's good business provided the cost base is covered. In the Oppo example, the guy trading in his fan equipped unit for a fanless one believes it's good value. He (she?) is getting enjoyment from the process. Good on them.

As a side note, my audio collection is lossless Redbook. So, your comment about different formats got a chuckle and a thumbs up from me..