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[njoak]

Hey all,

I recently took the plunge and replaced my pre-pro with JRiver MC19 and an external DAC. All my media sources are computer based anyway.

It all seems to work well, except for one niggle (so far). I use Hi-Fi Cable/ASIO bridge to route sound from all sources to JRiver's ASIO driver. Typically the routed sound is 5.1 channels (decoded DTS etc.) but some sources are only 2 channels.

This is where the niggle enters. Ideally I would like the 2 channel sound to be processed and upmixed to 5.1 by JRSS. However, I cannot get Hi-Fi Cable/ASIO Bridge to change the number of channels it presents to JRiver's ASIO driver. It is always the maximum 8 channels (although Hi-Fi Cable input and output recognises the correct channel count). Thus JRiver has no way of knowing when there is only 2 channels of sound and it passes through without JRSS touching it.

Or is there a way? I read in an old thread about an 'identify 2 channels in 5.1 container' feature of JRiver. This sounds like exactly what I need but I cannot find it in MC19... I understood there were some complaints about false identifications and assume it has been removed?

Is there anything else I can do? Apart from upmixing separately before JRiver which is not always possible (or?).

[njoak]

I'll take the liberty to bump this. Also changed the title to better suit my question.

To clarify, my question is if I can get JRiver to detect 2ch audio incoming via the ASIO driver in an 8 channel container. The point would be to get JRSS to up mix the material to 5.1 or 7.1.

A related issue is how to get JRSS to understand if the audio is of 'video' type or not? (If I understand correctly JRSS uses different schemes for "movie" sound and "music" sound)

[JimH]

I believe that will work.  Did you try it?

If you use MC's new ASIO _input_ (not the old _output_), you can then use any of the DSP effects MC can provide.

[njoak]

Yes, I did try it and as far as I can tell it does not work.

I use it daily now, in fact. All my sound is routed into MC using its ASIO driver. My default Windows audio driver is "Hi-Fi cable" from VB-Audio ( http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr ). It has the capability ("ASIO Bridge") to route all sound to an ASIO device, for which I choose JRiver MC19.


The setup looks like this:

Windows sound --> Hi-Fi cable wdm driver --> ASIO Bridge (8ch) --> JRiver MC19 ASIO driver --> MC audio engine --> ASIO output device driver --> DACs --> amps --> speakers


It works as expected; I can use all of MC's audio engine. Only trouble is that the channel count coming in to MC is always 8. If only 2 channels (or 6, or anything other than 8 ) have any sound in them the remaining channels are silent. JRSS doesn't seem to detect this and kick in with its up mixing.

I could get JRSS to kick in if I changed the number of speakers in Windows audio configuration to 2. With Wasapi loopback this channel count was then kept all the way into JRiver. With the above ASIO method this is not the case though, the channel count going into JRiver is always 8. Regardless, I would not want to change Windows speaker configuration every time the source number of channels changes.

Edit: Could it be that JRiver only detects 2ch sound in 6ch container, not in 8ch container?

[JimH]

Instead of this:

Windows sound --> Hi-Fi cable wdm driver --> ASIO Bridge (8ch) --> JRiver MC19 ASIO driver

You should be able to do this:

Windows sound --> JRiver MC19 ASIO driver

[njoak]

How do I do that?

If am not mistaken there is a limit to which sources are able to output to ASIO devices, isn't there?

In my case the "Windows sound" originates from several varying sources. For instance games, internet browsers and other media browsers/players than JRiver. I am pretty sure none of them can output directly to an ASIO device. If I am wrong and missing something I'd love to find out.

Put differently, my use case is that from which the idea of a JRiver wdm driver originates. And my setup is an interim workaround until one is developed.

Edit: What if I could do what you say, would JRSS be able to detect 2ch sound in an 8ch container and up mix it?

[njoak]

Would it be possible to

a) Force JRSS to discard all incoming channels except the first 2 and apply up mixing to those?
b) Tie this scheme to a separate zone?

If yes, I could live with that. I could manually change zones in JRiver (via the API?) when the source plays 2ch sound.

[JimH]

You're correct about WDM being the default.  I was thinking of something else.  Sorry.

[njoak]

No worries Jim, I appreciate your response.

I take it this is a difficult question. All the more reason to discuss it, if I may say so.

Would one run into similar situations if there was a JRiver WDM driver?

[Hendrik]

Even with a JRiver WDM driver, you would most likely need to set the Windows speaker config to one particular speaker configuration, at least thats how I think it works.

I don't see a solution to your problem right now. Trying to detect if only 2 channels are active is practically impossible. You could start out with surrounds quiet for the first few minutes, and then they suddenly become active - MC isn't that dynamic on reconfiguring its mixing on-the-fly without audio disruptions, so it would never be a proper solution.

[njoak]

I looked up the reference to 2ch detection in JRiver I mentioned in the first post. According to the change logs it was introduced in MC 16.0.127 (logs from http://www.softpedia.com/progChangelog/Media-Center-Changelog-6504.html):

What's new in JRiver Media Center 16.0.127:
July 12th, 2011
[...]
NEW: JRSS mixing detects pseudo 5.1 (2.0 content inside a 5.1 container) and upmixes it to 5.1 / 7.1.
[...]

It is also discussed in the below thread, which is about MC17. My understanding is that it is indeed implemented (unless later removed - but I have not seen that mentioned anywhere). But - it might only work for 5.1 containers and not 7.1. Doesn't seem like a necessary restriction in that case?

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72562.msg491547#msg491547

[Hendrik]

Did you test if it actually works with 6 channels for your use-case? Would be kinda silly if I go and venture into the pseudo-surround code just to figure out its not working for you.

[njoak]

Actually, yes. I wasn't sure so I just confirmed by playing back a random youtube clip in IE (always in stereo sound).

I cannot explicitly see anywhere if JRSS is active, but I looked at my output mixer (the green indicators at bottom right of the following pictures). Number of input channels is seen in MC's Audio Path.

With my ASIO solution (locked to 8ch in):



(channel 4 shows activity due to bass management)


With WASAPI loopback (6 channels in as configured in windows):



Here there is activity on channels 1-6.

[njoak]

For reference, Matt wrote the following about the detector in the thread I linked above (re. false detection in real multichannel audio):

The detector only triggers if the mains are playing with nothing in any surround or the subwoofer for a certain amount of time.  I can't imagine (nor have I seen) real world content that triggers this.  Most sound comes out of the center, and if the mains are playing, the subwoofer and center will have something on it.

Found in this post: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72562.msg492461#msg492461

[njoak]

I might add that I suspect JRSS applies its "music" algorithm in the working example above. The effect is rather subtle, particularly in the center channel.

Would be nice to be able to choose which scheme JRSS uses ("music sound" upmixing or "video sound" upmixing). Or maybe even tune the JRSS parameters to ones liking.

[njoak]

Quite impressive to already see a fix to 2 ch detection in 7.1 container in a change log (19.0.125). Thanks a million!

Unfortunately, it does not seem to work for me. I repeated the test I did a couple of posts up, and there is no change.

Just to be sure I did the 7.1 test with WASAPI loopback this time (before I used the ASIO driver). No dice. Playing the same source it works with 5.1 config, not with 7.1.

[retro]

Unfortunately, this won't work for me either. Maybe you are already working on the problem?  If not, please please do..

[retro]

Bumping this again now that Matt is back on track..

Can this be fixed..?

[Matt]

Bumping this again now that Matt is back on track..

Can this be fixed..?

Could you summarize the issue you are seeing?

[retro]

When external sources, like DvbViewer, Spotify etc. are used with AsioBridge, JRiver never upmix 2-ch content through JRSS to 5.1, my default configuration. JRiver always "see" 8-ch incoming, and then JRSS won't kick in.

Njoaks first two posts above explains it more in detail.

[Matt]

When external sources, like DvbViewer, Spotify etc. are used with AsioBridge, JRiver never upmix 2-ch content through JRSS to 5.1, my default configuration. JRiver always "see" 8-ch incoming, and then JRSS won't kick in.

Njoaks first two posts above explains it more in detail.

Can you set the sound card format to 2 channels, and use WASAPI Loopback?

[retro]

Wasapi loopback with DvbViewer seem to work fine with proper 2ch - 6ch JRSS upmixing! I recall having some problems with internal loopback earlier, but now it's ok as it seems.

Thanks!

[retro]

Well, I have to up this again..

Yes, setting the audio device as 2-channel makes the upmixing via JRSS work. That's great!

BUT, the audio-formats from DvbViewer varies between mpeg 2-ch (works), AC3 2-ch (works) and real AC3 5.1. With AC3 5.1 format as source, JRSS still sees it as 2-ch and uses its own upmixing. This is of course not desired, I then have to change the audio device back to 5.1 and I get proper untouched AC3 5.1.

This is the problem in a nutshell...
It's a pita to have to go to audio devices and change it when the formats change...

Do you think this can be fixed..?

[Hendrik]

2ch in 8ch is still detected just perfectly for me ever since I implemented it. Something must be wrong with your audio, and those channels perhaps not be properly silent.

Note that there is also an option to toggle if the detection is even active, check if its set properly.

[retro]

2ch in 8ch is still detected just perfectly for me ever since I implemented it. Something must be wrong with your audio, and those channels perhaps not be properly silent.

Note that there is also an option to toggle if the detection is even active, check if its set properly.

I have now tested this further, and no, it simply won't work. I have Realtek onboard audio, set as default and 5.1, doesn't work. Same with Asio Bridge. Same with Lynx.
I have your option toggled.
According to my mixer, the other channels are dead quiet.