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[Mikkel]

Hello,

There was some talk about the FCA610 in the "Pricey DACs" thread. I received mine yesterday and here are the results for 24-bit, 96khz (the results are almost exactly the same at 44khz).

One may complain about the 0.7 db drop between 10khz and 20khz (if you are picky) and the noise + THD (which I cannot hear). All other results are fine. Will post the THD-graph in the next post.

It may be possible to dig up the results for the XONAR Essence ST + H6. It measures excellent in all tests (and follow the published specs to the last decimal). However, in terms of actual sound quality my verdict is not final yet (currently I'm leaning towards placebo/no effect), except it introduces some irritating noise in my left speaker. That's why I'm testing the FCA610.

I'm not sure if it is because of the balanced cables, but for some reason front left/right, center and subwoofer have less output than the ASUS-card.

BACKGROUND INFO ON TEST:
Testing device    FCA610 USB ASIO 96khz
Sampling mode    24-bit, 96 kHz
Interface    ASIO
Testing chain    External loopback (line-out - line-in)
RMAA Version    6.4.0

20 Hz - 20 kHz filter    ON
Normalize amplitude    ON
Level change    -11.6 dB / -11.5 dB
Mono mode    OFF
Calibration singal, Hz    1000
Polarity    inverted/inverted


Best regards,
Mikkel

[Mikkel]

THD-graph attached, and summary can be seen below:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.05, -0.40
Good

Noise level, dB (A): -101.7
Excellent

Dynamic range, dB (A): 101.5
Excellent

THD, %: 0.0044
Very good

THD + Noise, dB (A): -84.3
Good

IMD + Noise, %: 0.0063
Excellent

Stereo crosstalk, dB: -92.3
Excellent

IMD at 10 kHz, %: 0.079
Good

General performance    
Very good

[Mikkel]

Further tests awaits. I'm somewhat critical of the differences in crosstalk between the two channels.

Please don't be polite. Give your opinion. I have 30 days free return ;-).
Perhaps even post your own measurements (for any hardware you may have).


Best regards,
Mikkel

[mattkhan]

I have a similarly priced interface (Focusrite Saffire Pro 24), can measure it if you like. I've never used RMAA before though, any particular instructions to follow?

[Mikkel]

I have a similarly priced interface (Focusrite Saffire Pro 24), can measure it if you like. I've never used RMAA before though, any particular instructions to follow?

- Connect your output to your input
- Use ASIO (to avoid any DSPs that may be enabled somewhere)
- Check that your DAC doesn't clip in either output or input during the test. Adjust levels as necessary

Other than that it is more or less intuitive.

For critique of the software and how to take care in interpreting the results you may read this (but only if you really find it interesting ): http://nwavguy.blogspot.dk/2011/02/rightmark-audio-analyzer-rmaa.html


Best regards,
Mikkel

[jmone]

I've got my old Fiio E10 and a JDS Labs 02+ODAC coming so happy to post results though I can't seem to install the RMAA test suite (have I got the right one)?

Edit - download from this link twice - http://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml

[Mikkel]

I've got my old Fiio E10 and a JDS Labs 02+ODAC coming so happy to post results though I can't seem to install the RMAA test suite (have I got the right one)?

Superb. The latest version is here: http://audio.rightmark.org/download.shtml

Btw, I will post some new tests later. The IMD is not impressive and could be due to errors in my setup.

[jmone]

Yup that is the link I used to download "RMAA 6.4.0" - tried twice and same error.

[jmone]

Run as Administrator works 

[jmone]

I won't have time to work this all out till the weekend however!  Got your settings above but any other setup info to keep it the same pls let us know.

[mwillems]

I've got my old Fiio E10 and a JDS Labs 02+ODAC coming so happy to post results though I can't seem to install the RMAA test suite (have I got the right one)?

Jmone, just FYI, the guy who designed the ODAC and O2 is the same guy who wrote that article about the perils of RMAA (nwavguy).  If you're looking for exhaustive measurements of the ODAC and O2, you can find it on his blog, e.g. http://nwavguy.blogspot.dk/2011/08/o2-details.html

I'll throw on RMAA myself over the weekend and see if I can contribute to the discussion with my Steinberg. 

@Mikkel, those measurements you got are pretty close to the rated specs of the FCA, so that's good news.

[mojave]

One thing nwavguy mentions that is usually glossed over is that RMAA always measures the combined ADC/DAC sections. However, we only use the DAC section for listening. You could have a great DAC section and poor ADC section and end up thinking your audio device isn't that great based on RMAA measurements.

The same thing goes for latency measurements and loopback frequency response measurements for REW. If you do a loopback of the Steinberg UR824, for example, it looks like it starts to rolloff at around 20 Hz. However, if you use the Steinberg for output and something else for input, the rolloff is much lower. This indicates that the input section of the UR824 probably has a high pass filter.

[mojave]

Every once in a while I try to find out if NwAvGuy has resurfaced. I found this article from February:

NwAvGuy: The Audio Genius Who Vanished

[mojave]

I'm not sure if it is because of the balanced cables, but for some reason front left/right, center and subwoofer have less output than the ASUS-card

Maximum output voltage for the FCA610 is 8 dBu (1.94V) and for the Asus it is 2.16V. I wouldn't think that would make much of an audible difference. If you are going from balanced to unbalanced, then you lose 6 dB.

[mwillems]

One thing nwavguy mentions that is usually glossed over is that RMAA always measures the combined ADC/DAC sections. However, we only use the DAC section for listening. You could have a great DAC section and poor ADC section and end up thinking your audio device isn't that great based on RMAA measurements.

The same thing goes for latency measurements and loopback frequency response measurements for REW. If you do a loopback of the Steinberg UR824, for example, it looks like it starts to rolloff at around 20 Hz. However, if you use the Steinberg for output and something else for input, the rolloff is much lower. This indicates that the input section of the UR824 probably has a high pass filter.

RMAA definitely has a lot of limitations; that was one of the great things about Nwavguy's blog was that he had such excellent testing equipment.  It's a shame he's still MIA, he was providing an incredible public service to the audio community and no one has really stepped into those shoes.

[mattkhan]

Well I installed it and gave it a bash. The app seems quite flaky. It would freeze after each measurement hence needing to be killed & it kept causing jriver to crash too. Finally after I ran it a few times, it refused to allow 96kHz as an option despite the 192kHz test showing that all rates up to 192 were fully supported.

Anyway some results

Testing device    Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 ASIO 48khz
Sampling mode    24-bit, 48 kHz
Interface            ASIO
Testing chain    External loopback (line-out - line-in)
RMAA Version    6.4.0

20 Hz - 20 kHz filter    ON
Normalize amplitude    ON
Level change            Not sure which setting this is?
Mono mode            OFF
Calibration singal, Hz    1000
Polarity                    Not sure which setting this is?

are the results good/bad/indifferent?

[mattkhan]

last 2 graphs

[6233638]

I think you might have some grounding issues with those IMD results!
I have frequently encountered this sort of trouble when using loopback connections on a PC.

[mattkhan]

I think you might have some grounding issues with those IMD results!
I have frequently encountered this sort of trouble when using loopback connections on a PC.

Is this going to be one of those measurements I wished I'd never taken 

can you explain? is it an actual problem or just a measurement problem?

[mwillems]

Is this going to be one of those measurements I wished I'd never taken  

can you explain? is it an actual problem or just a measurement problem?

I think he's referring to the 60Hz lump in your IMD measurement (ground hum in the 120 VAC countries is a 60Hz tone), but unless I'm mistaken that's supposed to be there.  

RMAA measures IMD with a 60Hz fundamental and a 7KHz fundamental (you need two tones to measure IMD by definition).  It's just an unfortunate coincidence that 60Hz is also the ground hum frequency.  OP's IMD measurement looks more like a ground loop problem to me than yours does (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mains_hum_spectrum.png)

[6233638]

I think he's referring to the 60Hz lump in your IMD measurement (ground hum in the 120 VAC countries is a 60Hz tone), but unless I'm mistaken that's supposed to be there.  

RMAA measures IMD with a 60Hz fundamental and a 7KHz fundamental (you need two tones to measure IMD by definition).  It's just an unfortunate coincidence that 60Hz is also the ground hum frequency.  OP's IMD measurement looks more like a ground loop problem to me than yours does (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mains_hum_spectrum.png)

Yes, I was referring to the 60Hz spike - but I did not realize that RMAA used 60Hz and 7kHz for this test, which would explain the results, and why it mainly seems to be showing up in the IMD plot.
 
From doing a little reading into it, it seems that SMPTE RP120-1994 uses 60Hz and 7kHz, when other standards (which I'm used to seeing) use different frequencies for their testing.

[Mikkel]

And here are the Essence ST results (amazing!).

Testing device    (ASUS Xonar Essence ST Audio Device
Sampling mode    24-bit, 44 kHz
Interface    DirectSound
Testing chain    External loopback (line-out - line-in)
RMAA Version    6.4.0

20 Hz - 20 kHz filter    ON
Normalize amplitude    ON
Level change    0.0 dB / 0.0 dB
Mono mode    OFF
Calibration singal, Hz    1000
Polarity    correct/correct

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB    
+0.00, -0.00
   
Excellent
Noise level, dB (A)    
-146.0
   
Excellent
Dynamic range, dB (A)    
133.0
   
Excellent
THD, %    
0.0000
   
Excellent
THD + Noise, dB (A)    
-128.3
   
Excellent
IMD + Noise, %    
0.0002
   
Excellent
Stereo crosstalk, dB    
-147.7
   
Excellent
IMD at 10 kHz, %    
0.0000
Excellent

General performance    
Excellent

[Mikkel]

and thd

[Mikkel]

are the results good/bad/indifferent?

I think the RMAA results are good. Although you may find better results with other hardware I don't think the RMAA-results are problematic in real listening situations.
In any case the results are better than the FCA610, which is going back to the dealer. Crosstalk is better if you evaluate it on a per cannel-basis (the FCA610 has quite some variation between the channels). Although that may not be audibly problematic, given the excellent results of the ASUS-card I'm sticking with that. Hopefully I can fix my ground loop at some point.

Your IMD-results are equally better, and although the noise level is higher than the FCA610 it is certainly not critical.

Enjoy the sound .


Best regards,
Mikkel

[jmone]

So what Line In are you using for the loop back?  Just the PC's sound card?

[Mikkel]

So what Line In are you using for the loop back?  Just the PC's sound card?

Yes. The ASUS-card has a 6.3 jack line-in. So 2rca -> 1 jack.

[jmone]

Ok - The "think" the only input I have is the Motherboard's Mic input (and while I may not have set it up correctly yet the first run is terrible)!

[Mikkel]

Ok - The "think" the only input I have is the Motherboard's Mic input (and while I may not have set it up correctly yet the first run is terrible)!

Yes, don't use the mic-input. It has to be a line-input. Otherwise the results are (most likely) going to be terrible and misleading.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[jmone]

I'm not sure the on board Audio Line In is going to cut it!

[Mikkel]

Have you tried lowering the line-in signal in the mixer? Or alternatively the output.

Either way, you can also try using MME Wave as input, and then remember to set the Line In as default recording device.

[jmone]

Tried all of that and also different bit depths and sample rates....

[Mikkel]

Tried all of that and also different bit depths and sample rates....

Hmm, perhaps that is just one of those situations where RMAA (for unknown reasons) does not work with the equipment. I'm affraid I don't know what to suggest beside what has already been said.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[jmone]

Thanks Mikkel - I first used the std Win drivers, then the latest Realtek ones but the same result.  I guess that the ADC of these Realtek chips are not so good & this is the downside of the RMAA test I guess (in that they measure the round trip from a DAC to the ADC and the weakest point could be the ADC making the comparison of a DAC very hard to distinguish). 

[jmone]

For what it is worth (given the input is line level into an Asus Mobo ALC892 Chipset) , here is a comparison of the ODAC and the Fiio E10. 

[InflatableMouse]

-12.5 crosstalk, that means something's wrong doesn't it? 

[Mikkel]

@jmone and InflatableMouse: I'm slightly unsure whether the crosstalk is a problem or a design feature. Am I correct in assuming the Fiio is a headphone amp? If so, perhaps crosstalk is built into the device in order for create a more natural sound where the audio reaches both ears and not just the one which the signal is sent to.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[InflatableMouse]

Hm that makes sense. Would be good to check into that (and see if you can turn it off).

[jmone]

I tested the Fiio from it's Line Out port so that should not happen - I'll retest it tomorrow.

[mwillems]

I tested the Fiio from it's Line Out port so that should not happen - I'll retest it tomorrow.

Out of curiosity, the FIIO header in your chart says it's the SPDIF output?  Is that correct?  Or is that just how the FIIO line out self-identifies?

[jmone]

It's just how the Fiio Identifies itself (oddly).

Re ran the RMAA test and the Stereo cross talk looks normal now.

Though I think these test just show how ordinary my Mobo ADC is more than anything on the two DACs