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[r_cohen]

I'd love to be able to use JRiver's flexible audio processing after Dirac Live, rather than before it.

I saw something about a possible future JRiver WDM feature, so that JRiver could show up as a Windows Playback Device.

This has the potential to be able to do really nice stuff, like active crossovers and flexible bass and mid-bass management.
The tricky thing is that Dirac Live only supports 8 channels, and it needs to come before crossovers in order to work properly.

7.1ch PC Audio Sources (including JRiver) -> 7.1ch Dirac Live Playback Device -> 7.1-16ch JRiver Crossover/Routing -> 16ch DAC

So, I hope WDM is implemented in a way that makes this possible!

Thanks!

[r_cohen]

Or is this configuration already possible with ASIO support?
Does that only work with other sources, or can that work with JRiver, too?

JRiver 7.1 -> Dirac Live 7.1 -> JRiver ASIO 7.1 -> JRiver processing and routing 7.1-16 -> 16 channel DAC

[r_cohen]

To clarify, Dirac Live already has ASIO support and can select JRiver ASIO as an output device.

The problem is that JRiver can only select a single output device, rather than Dirac before processing and the DAC after processing:
JRiver source -> Dirac Live -> JRiver ASIO -> JRiver processing -> DAC

[mojave]

Once you perform the crossovers/routing, the frequency response and phase change. Therefore, room correction such as Dirac always has to be last in the signal chain. DTS installed Dirac Live in a 32-channel mixing room. Perhaps they will release a version with more channels to consumers.

I recommend using Audiolense.

[retro]

Once you perform the crossovers/routing, the frequency response and phase change. Therefore, room correction such as Dirac always has to be last in the signal chain.

Sounds logical, but afaik, the measurements in Dirac are always done with full-frequency sweeps, even in the mega-expensive Datasat unit. Basically, I think it's the same Dirac Live Correction Suite that's available for our HTPC's..?!?

And here's what an actual owner of the Datasat, djnickuk on avsforum, say about the correct workflow to get it running:

A key tip for setting up Dirac.

Set up your delays and spl levels first. I find the best way to set up delays is to use REW with a loop back to get the exact time of flight in ms from speaker to mic. I then use these measurements to work out the exact delays required.

Then ensure bass management is turned off. Speakers set to large and full range to subs.

Then start the Dirac process.

Once you have completed Dirac you need to hard reboot the machine.

Then you need to enable bass management and use the setting you require, the settings that you will have ideally learned from using REW or similar tools in learning xovers / slopes etc.

(From http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444649/official-datasat-rs20i-thread-setup-tips-questions-general-info-etc/1530)

This kind of contradicts what you write above, mojave..? Not meant as critique, but I'm also trying to get the hang of this to properly DRC my system. Running Dirac now in my HTPC and it sound's fabulous, although I haven't corrected my new subs yet.
Also have a license of Audiolense, may have to give that a try again...

[dallasjustice]

Once you perform the crossovers/routing, the frequency response and phase change. Therefore, room correction such as Dirac always has to be last in the signal chain. DTS installed Dirac Live in a 32-channel mixing room. Perhaps they will release a version with more channels to consumers.

I recommend using Audiolense.

If the measurement sweep is recorded with the same crossover/delay used with playback, then it will be taken into account when DIRAC makes the filter.  I don't think it would be any different with Audiolense. 

[mattkhan]

Sounds logical, but afaik, the measurements in Dirac are always done with full-frequency sweeps, even in the mega-expensive Datasat unit. Basically, I think it's the same Dirac Live Correction Suite that's available for our HTPC's..?!?

And here's what an actual owner of the Datasat, djnickuk on avsforum, say about the correct workflow to get it running:

(From http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444649/official-datasat-rs20i-thread-setup-tips-questions-general-info-etc/1530)

This kind of contradicts what you write above, mojave..? Not meant as critique, but I'm also trying to get the hang of this to properly DRC my system. Running Dirac now in my HTPC and it sound's fabulous, although I haven't corrected my new subs yet.
Also have a license of Audiolense, may have to give that a try again...

AIUI dirac doesn't do bass management so it can only measure & correct the speaker as a whole rather than an n way system, this seems suboptimal really.

[r_cohen]

Once you perform the crossovers/routing, the frequency response and phase change. Therefore, room correction such as Dirac always has to be last in the signal chain. DTS installed Dirac Live in a 32-channel mixing room. Perhaps they will release a version with more channels to consumers.

I recommend using Audiolense.

No, I think you want the crossovers and bass management to be after Dirac Live, so that DL can correct the full-range final result.  Any processing prior to Dirac won't be included in the correction.

I haven't tried Audiolense.  Have you compared the results with Dirac?  What do you think?  One thing I really like about Dirac is the ability to quickly fine-tune target curves and flip between them, in order to dial them in.  Is that workflow possible with Audiolense?

[dallasjustice]

I know what you are trying to do.  You will need 2 things to do what you want. You will need to route the test sweep through the JRiver room correction tab. I've done this using a virtual cable. JRiver ASIO would be better but it doesn't work with DLCT. I be opened a ticket with DIRAC about this. They say they will work on it. Who knows,  But virtual cable works fine.

Once you've made your filter, you need a way to output the filter using the same crossover/delay you used in your test sweep and selected in the DAP's filtered output. This could be done using JRiver ASIO as the output but that would just cause feedback since the output and input of JRiver would all be coming from the same zone. However, if the JRiver ASIO driver could be configured to route to a specific zone, then you could route the DAP's filtered output through the 2nd zone which would apply all of your bass management in the room correction tab. Of course, I have no idea whether this sort of routing is even feasible in JRiver.

[mojave]

No, I think you want the crossovers and bass management to be after Dirac Live, so that DL can correct the full-range final result.  Any processing prior to Dirac won't be included in the correction.

Any processing after Dirac won't be included in the correction since Dirac wasn't involved in measuring it. Dirac can only correct what it measures. If Dirac can only measure 8 channels, then using more than 8 channels for output means the actual output you want isn't measured by Dirac. Room Correction, regardless of software, has to take a measurement after any crossovers and bass management.

I haven't tried Audiolense.  Have you compared the results with Dirac?  What do you think?  One thing I really like about Dirac is the ability to quickly fine-tune target curves and flip between them, in order to dial them in.  Is that workflow possible with Audiolense?

Yes, you can change targets however you like and make multiple filters. You can switch filters on the fly in JRiver while listening.

[mojave]

If the measurement sweep is recorded with the same crossover/delay used with playback, then it will be taken into account when DIRAC makes the filter.  I don't think it would be any different with Audiolense. 

He wants to take the measurement sweep before crossovers and delay which won't produce a usable correction.

[dallasjustice]

He wants to take the measurement sweep before crossovers and delay which won't produce a usable correction.

I think his post is a little ambiguous.  But I think he is saying the following will be his playback routing:
"7.1ch PC Audio Sources (including JRiver) -> 7.1ch Dirac Live Playback Device -> 7.1-16ch JRiver Crossover/Routing -> 16ch DAC"

I didn't see anywhere in his post where he is talking about measurement.  I know that taking a measurement using jriver crossover/delay in room correction tab is possible using DLCT because I've done it with an exasound.  I used the virtual cable.  It works okay.  It would be easier to use JRiver ASIO but DIRAC has a problem there with JRiver ASIO and DLCT. 

[retro]

Any comments then about the workflow described in my post above in the $$ Datasat unit..?

Since I agree that crossovers should be active during the measurement, does that mean the DRC in Datasat is flawed and not performing at it's best..?!?

[r_cohen]

Any comments then about the workflow described in my post above in the $$ Datasat unit..?

Since I agree that crossovers should be active during the measurement, does that mean the DRC in Datasat is flawed and not performing at it's best..?!?

I think there's actually an argument to be made for either approach...not a clear right or wrong answer.  Also, I'm not sure if we're using the before/after terms the same way.

One clear problem with doing JRiver crossover/routing before Dirac Live, though, is that Dirac Live is limited to 8 channels.  That 8 channel limit is much easier to live with if it happens before crossovers, etc.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Globally working DSP either before or after Dirac are now possible because of the ASIO and WDM drivers. However I don't know whether JRiver can still be used as the media player after this.

The important thing to note is that whatever your chain was after DLCT during measurement (DLCT > XXX > Speakers) has to remain constant during playback with DAP as well.

Before: JRiver WDM (Bass Management) > DAP > KS / ASIO Sound Card
You can freely modify DSP in JRiver once calibration is complete, since Dirac only corrects the individual speakers' output. This will only work ideally with a single subwoofer. Multiple subwoofers require a splitter cable and external time & level alignment.

After: DAP > JRiver ASIO (Bass Management / Mixing more than 7.1 channels) > WASAPI / ASIO Sound Card
You can't touch JRiver DSP settings without requiring a recalibration. Dirac measures and corrects the combined sound (it sees only 7.1 channels). Multiple subwoofer bass management and alignment can presumably be configured in JRiver.

[TomScrut]

I know this is an old thread but I am considering doing exactly what the OP was thinking about hence why I felt it was more suitable to reawaken this thread rather than start a new one.

As far as I am aware the situation has not changed in the respect that if one was to use Dirac with the active crossovers set by MC, then you would need to have Dirac applying the EQ before MC did the crossover. The only reason for this (and an annoying one really) is that I cannot set the measurement frequencies in Dirac. Therefore if I were to measure without MC downstream I would blow my (expensive) tweeters.

As the last post says, you can put MC downstream from Dirac, but then it cannot be used as the media player.

Has anyone done anything that takes this a step beyond what I am thinking?

[r_cohen]

I have heard of people creating very nice active crossover setups using JRiver & Audiolense XO.
Also, JRiver, Dirac, & MiniDSP crossovers.

Ultimately, I got results I was happy with JRiver & Dirac without using active crossovers (aside from bass mgmt).