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Author Topic: I need a real storage solution.  (Read 8178 times)

6233638

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I need a real storage solution.
« on: June 07, 2014, 10:04:55 am »

Well, it seems that I'm running out of disk space faster and faster now.
It can't have been that long ago that I replaced a pair of 1.5TB disks with 4TB ones, and they're full again already.
 
I've run out of expansion in my current PC case.
There are a couple of 5.25" drive bays free that I could buy a bay adapter for to fit another couple of HDDs, but I have also run out of SATA ports on the motherboard. (1x SSD, 2x Blu-ray, 5xHDD)
 
And I don't particularly like this case anyway.
It's big and heavy, the hard drives are mounted vertically, and they don't receive adequate cooling.
The plastic drive sleds seem to insulate heat from them, and there's not really any gaps between them for airflow.
 
So I would like to do a complete rebuild of my system, but I don't really know where to start.
I feel like all of my purchases have been short-sighted rather than looking towards the future.
 
All of my music and DVD rips are currently backed up to external drives, which are not connected to the PC - I actually used the two 1.5TB disks for all my DVD backups.
None of my Blu-rays are backed up - the physical disc has been my "backup" thus far.
But now that I've been converting to MKV, partly in an effort to free up space, which involves some amount of work - especially for TV episodes - I'm wondering if I should have some or all of those backed up too.
 
I'm really unsure what to do at this point.
I like the idea of having a file server that uses a case specifically built to house a lot of disks, minimize vibrations and keep them cool, but there are a number of issues with that:
  • The network connection to my PC is slow. It's wired in for gigabit, but the ISP-supplied router it's currently hooked up to only does 100mbps.
  • Even then, gigabit Ethernet is a lot slower than a SATA connection - is Thunderbolt an option yet?
  • While I'd like to have a SFF media/gaming PC and a separate file server, I don't really have anywhere to put a second tower other than in my listening space. (the current PC is in another room with HDMI & USB routed through the walls)
  • I don't know that I "trust" RAID. It always seems to cause more headaches than it solves.
  • I currently have a mixture of disks; 2x 4TB WD Se, a 4TB Hitachi, a 2.5TB WD Green, and a 2TB WD Green.

I use the PC for gaming in addition to media playback, so whatever I do has to be capable of handling a full size GPU.
I'm thinking I'd like to move to the X99 platform and an Nvidia 800 series GPU later this year, from my current 2500K & GTX 570.
 
I'd like to get rid of the green drives ASAP, so replacing them with larger disks now might delay things for another 6 months if I should wait for those to be released.
Replacing disks with larger ones is what I've been doing from the start and just seems short-sighted though - but I suppose they could be repurposed.
 
My concern about moving to something like pooled storage/RAID is that I thought it required all disks be the same capacity, so if I started out using 4TB drives, I wouldn't be able to use the newer 5TB/6TB drives, or whatever comes in the future.
 
It's relatively inexpensive to simply replace drives with higher capacity ones (swap out the green drives with a pair of 4-6TB disks) but once you start looking at add-in SATA cards/RAID controllers, cases with reliable backplanes, redundant storage etc. the costs seem to skyrocket, which is why I've kept putting things off.
 
 
Any ideas for what I should do?
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 01:25:27 pm »

I'm still here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86285.msg604404#msg604404

And trying to decide what to do.  I've basically decided to wait for a while, though not that long.  Maybe looking at a purchase in the early fall/late summer.
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Hendrik

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 02:05:17 pm »

Like outlined in my own thread, I've recently built a new system based on a Lian Li PC-D8000B case. Its huge and certainly needs space to put it, but it also has loads of space for hardware.
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 03:37:22 pm »

I'll try to have a look over your post later Glynor, thanks for the link.
 
The PC-D8000 is one of the options I had considered a while back when I was looking at new cases.
It's one of the few cases which can hold a lot of drives that's not made to go in a rack.

But there seems to be so much wasted space inside it.
A rackmounted case with a backplane fits 24 drives in a lot smaller space, and the left half of the case mostly seems to be empty?
It does seem like you would have lots of ventilation for the drives though, as there's a good amount of spacing between them.
 
Rather than have those drives on the front, I'd prefer to see the drive cages moved so that there are three or four columns of drives in the left side of the case. You could probably get 36-48 drives in there.
Inverting the motherboard tray seems like it would make the "PC side" easier to work with too.
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jmone

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2014, 05:25:40 am »

FWIW
- I too like and use Lian Li cases (I use a Z70 that had 9 x HDD front bays on my main PC.  
- I also hate raid for home use (complex an it is not a back up soln, just an uptime soln).  I used to rely on my backup being physical BD Disks but after my RAID controller trashed my array twice I gave up re-ripping '00 of disks and just purchased a bunch of disks to add to my WHS (that was already backing up my PCs) and use FreeFileSync to periodically backup my main media server to the pool on my WHS (it lets you preview the changes prior to a commit so you can get back any unintended deletes etc).
- You really don't need any pooling as MC abstracts the physical location anyway... just add media till one drive is full, then start on then next etc.  That said, I do use DriveBender for my media shares (but nothing else) as it makes it easier to have one big pool (both are over 30TB).
- I too am out of ports/bays and instead of getting another SATA card or expander now intend on slowing replacing drives with 6TB ones.  This will eventually let my existing HW grow to around 50TB each.
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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2014, 05:31:14 am »

I agree that full RAID is quite annoying to maintain for home use, which is why I use FlexRAID. Its easy to use, flexible, and doesn't destroy all data in case of failure, while giving me a bit of peace of mind due to parity protection.
It offers pooling on top, which helps with my mild OCD tendencies to keep everything neatly sorted on a file system level. :p

Rather than have those drives on the front, I'd prefer to see the drive cages moved so that there are three or four columns of drives in the left side of the case. You could probably get 36-48 drives in there.
Inverting the motherboard tray seems like it would make the "PC side" easier to work with too.

Once I ran out of space in the front, I did consider the option to simply "mod" the case a bit, and manually mount extra hdds in all the free space.
It will need a bit of careful design, but I think it can work. I've seen images of people modding the case to contain loads of harddrives on the left side.

Regarding the inverted tray, I don't see the need. The whole tray can be removed out the back, making maintenance rather trivial.

Another big argument for this case was for me the mostly silent operation, while rack-mounted cases are typically always either suffering from thermal problems or are rather loud.

PS:
Regarding connection speed, unless you buy absolute high-end performance drives, gigabit isn't going to be a huge bottleneck. If you have multiple consumers reading data, you could get dual or even more connections and team them, but otherwise, its going to be fine.
I never considered the ethernet connection a problem on my end, as media consumption is way below even 1/10th of the possible speed, and the occasional maintenance doesn't need much more either.
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jmone

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2014, 05:46:50 am »

Re FlexRaid, it is a great bit of SW but once I decided to go for a backup pool, there was no need to run a parity drive (waste of space) as I already have a full backup.  eg, if a drive fails, I just replace it and push back the missing files instead of rebuilding the array.  The other benefit is I'm covered for fire, theft, unintended changes/deletes, catastrophic failure etc as the backup server is in another location (but on the LAN and for 6233638 you really want gigabit or better for transfer between pools while it is slower at the 110MB/sec I get it is close to raw HDD speed).

Edit - the big downside is $$$$ for the extra HDDs on the backup server
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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2014, 06:00:57 am »

I should say, since I've started with the whole rip -> HDD I've now had around 100 HDD and they fail... all the time.  Some do it on their own, some are from my own stupidity (I managed to get a Molex power connector around the wrong way on my backplane and blew a bunch of drives)....  Nothing beats a full backup (even it is the original disc).
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2014, 07:33:30 am »

I agree that full RAID is quite annoying to maintain for home use, which is why I use FlexRAID. Its easy to use, flexible, and doesn't destroy all data in case of failure, while giving me a bit of peace of mind due to parity protection.
It offers pooling on top, which helps with my mild OCD tendencies to keep everything neatly sorted on a file system level. :p
That sounds like a good solution, but after trying software like DriveBender, which is not RAID, but still gave me headaches, I'm wary of doing anything but simply adding bare drives and cloning the data. Perhaps it's something to investigate though.
 
I'm not sure that I want a 100% redundant copy of all of my media either. I already have an automated backup solution in place for music, and backing up my DVD rips once a month or so is not going to lose me a lot of work.
With additional drive bays, I would probably dedicate another drive to a backup of my Blu-ray TV rips, as they're all split by episode and nicely tagged. Some of those discs have been a real pain, with the episode order effectively being random.

Once I ran out of space in the front, I did consider the option to simply "mod" the case a bit, and manually mount extra hdds in all the free space.
It will need a bit of careful design, but I think it can work. I've seen images of people modding the case to contain loads of harddrives on the left side.
Yes, I've seen those images too - it just seems like that would have been a better use of the space to mount the drives that way. I'm not sure I like the idea of modding an expensive case like that though.

Regarding the inverted tray, I don't see the need. The whole tray can be removed out the back, making maintenance rather trivial.
The tray can be removed, but you have to remember to disconnect everything from the motherboard every time.
With an inverted tray, you would still have the option of removing it, but would be able to remove the side panel and have access to the components for making a quick change, rather than having to remove the tray or work around the middle brace.

Another big argument for this case was for me the mostly silent operation, while rack-mounted cases are typically always either suffering from thermal problems or are rather loud.
6x 120mm Noctuas blowing over the drives in the front, with the generous spacing it seems to use, seems like it would provide very nice cooling for the drives and be very quiet. (well, as quiet as an aluminum case with 20 drives in it can be)
I am a little concerned at the lack of filters built into the case, but with all six fans blowing inwards, you probably have enough positive pressure to stop that being a problem.
 
Regarding connection speed, unless you buy absolute high-end performance drives, gigabit isn't going to be a huge bottleneck. If you have multiple consumers reading data, you could get dual or even more connections and team them, but otherwise, its going to be fine.
I never considered the ethernet connection a problem on my end, as media consumption is way below even 1/10th of the possible speed, and the occasional maintenance doesn't need much more either.
It's fine for streaming media, but there are a number of limitations.
First of all, I would have to replace some networking gear and possibly run new cables so that I have gigabit speeds.
Secondly, I'm using enterprise-grade drives (because I just don't trust consumer ones any more) and a single disk will saturate a gigabit connection.
I find that I am often reading/writing to multiple drives at once, and for gaming I definitely don't want to be limited to gigabit speeds.
 
I really wish Thunderbolt networking was more mature. It seems like the most inexpensive way to have a really high bandwidth connection at a significantly lower cost than anything else.


I should say, since I've started with the whole rip -> HDD I've now had around 100 HDD and they fail... all the time.  Some do it on their own, some are from my own stupidity (I managed to get a Molex power connector around the wrong way on my backplane and blew a bunch of drives)....  Nothing beats a full backup (even it is the original disc).
It's simply the cost that pushes me away from having a redundant copy of everything. Ultimately, I still have all my discs.
The density is such that losing a 4TB drive means re-ripping maybe 80 Blu-rays, which is time consuming but doable, considering I have multiple drives and could add more.
Losing 4TB of DVDs (let's say 800) or CDs (8000!) is not something I'd ever want to go through.
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jtwrace

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2014, 08:04:41 am »

Why not use a NAS?  The Synology NAS if configured with SHR can use different drive sizes so as you need more storage you just add the bigger drive into the mix.

http://forum.synology.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_Synology_Hybrid_RAID%3F

I use a Synology 1813+ with 4T drives.  It works great!
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2014, 08:29:51 am »

It seems like you could build a PC for a lot less than the cost of most high capacity/high performance NAS devices.
NAS boxes are often proprietary, so you're SOL if something goes wrong and you need to recover data.
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jtwrace

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2014, 08:45:09 am »

It seems like you could build a PC for a lot less than the cost of most high capacity/high performance NAS devices.
NAS boxes are often proprietary, so you're SOL if something goes wrong and you need to recover data.
I guess if one has the expertise then yes.  I don't.  You can easily get the data off the drives though.  Further, you should have backups anyway so the data is easily accessible.  I'm sure if you have the knowledge though you can build something much less expensive.  I wanted a simple solution that not only I could access for my audio but the cool thing is that it works from anywhere in the world with an internet connection. 
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2014, 10:43:55 am »

I really wish Thunderbolt networking was more mature. It seems like the most inexpensive way to have a really high bandwidth connection at a significantly lower cost than anything else.

+1

(Well, not networking, but I just wish there were decent standalone Thunderbolt RAID/SAS/SATA Controllers for a reasonable price).

MiniSAS can do it, though, if you don't have substantial cable length restrictions.  My RAID box, even with the junky Highpoint controller (which doesn't perform as well under Windows 8 with a RAID 5 volume) gives me ~300MB/s.

FlexRAID has always intrigued me (and there's no reason you can't build it on-top-of "real RAID" volumes if you want, or just use a cheaper controller and run all software-style-RAID), but I've never had substantial issues with my hardware-based RAIDs.  It does somewhat limit what drives you can use to expand volumes.  And, yes, of course, it isn't a backup.  However, if speed of recovery matters to you (and it does to me, because every hour my media volume is down would be very painful), it can save you from drive failures.  I'm only running RAID 5 right now (a big point of my planned upgrade is to allow me to migrate to RAID6), and in the 10 years or so I've been using a RAID5 volume, it has saved me from drive failures probably 3 times.

And, unlike a backup-based-restore (which I have too), in those cases, my downtime was ZERO.

You have to be careful, and know what it is, and what it is not.  But, I've never seen a software-based system that was not either:

1. Equally or more complex if you want automatic parity.
2. Severely performance limiting and/or flaky.

If I'm going to run 6 drives in an array, I want it to work FASTER THAN a single drive, not "about the same" as a single drive, with worse IOps performance.

But that's me.

What is frustrating is that all of that SHOULD BE filesystem features.  We need something like btrfs for Windows.
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Hendrik

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2014, 10:54:04 am »

If I'm going to run 6 drives in an array, I want it to work FASTER THAN a single drive, not "about the same" as a single drive, with worse IOps performance.

But that's me.

The problem with that is that you cannot have it all.
If you want improved performance, you need stripping like RAID5/6 give you. However, that then also implies that a failure of X+1 discs (ie. 2 for RAID5) will destroy all your data.

FlexRAIDs system does not perform stripping (similar to a RAID4), and as a consequence you won't get improved performance. However, even if more drives fail than you have parity for, only those drives that failed are lost to you.
Its a second layer of safety, which at the very least reduces the downtime, or at the very best protects you from having to re-rip 200 Blu-ray's (because you're cheap like me, and keep the opticals as the backup, instead of duplicating the entire storage).
After having lost a RAID5 to a dual-failure once (second failure during restore), and the pain it was to restore all of it, it was something I really liked to have - even if I haven't needed it since.

Anyhow, like I touched on earlier, my media storage doesn't need improved performance, so I'm fine with that compromise.

And from where I'm standing, no file system will ever implement the flexibility I have right now. All those fancy file systems are usually limited to the same conditions an actual RAID gives you (same size drives, primarily).
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2014, 11:21:20 am »

The problem with that is that you cannot have it all.
If you want improved performance, you need stripping like RAID5/6 give you. However, that then also implies that a failure of X+1 discs (ie. 2 for RAID5) will destroy all your data.

FlexRAIDs system does not perform stripping (similar to a RAID4), and as a consequence you won't get improved performance. However, even if more drives fail than you have parity for, only those drives that failed are lost to you.

See... This is where I have trouble with that compromise.

You wrote that as though the latter is preferable to the former.  I'm not so sure I'm on board with that... To me, both are essentially equally catastrophic.  The restore from backup would be quicker with only a subset of my data lost, but if I'm pooling it all together so that it seems to the OS like a single, massive volume (which is #1 on my priority list), then that is somewhat counteracted by the pain of figuring out what went wrong and where and what was impacted and what wasn't (I know there are ways, but it is still a bit more pain) and increasing complexity for my backup system.

I like my backup systems to be DUMB DUMB DUMB.  Take volume X, back it up.  If you need to restore, then you restore the whole darn thing.

And, with the former, I have fewer situations where I could ever hit that situation.  Failure while rebuilding from parity is certainly an issue with RAID5 (though the chances become vanishingly small with RAID6 unless you scale to datacenter-class disk counts, which I never will), but it hasn't happened to me in 10 years.
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 12:02:53 pm »

And, I should add... Better performance (particularly sustained write performance) makes the full-restore from backup, should it ever be needed, faster too.

I only write this to make the point that "only lose a subset of the data" has been, for me, a bit of a red herring benefit.  To each their own, though!   I can certainly see both sides, and there are situations where hardware RAID is very inconvenient.

Also...

Its a second layer of safety, which at the very least reduces the downtime, or at the very best protects you from having to re-rip 200 Blu-ray's (because you're cheap like me, and keep the opticals as the backup, instead of duplicating the entire storage).

Yeah, RAID is not a backup in any way, and if you're going that kind of route for backup, then I can see that being the only tradeoff that makes sense.  Backing up to a system like that is a non-starter for me, though.  The vast majority of the data I care about the most doesn't have an optical backup (photos, recordings I've made, home movies, etc).

And... Again, downtime.

Write performance can be a major factor in a couple of ways, but for restoring from a monolithic backup, it can be a massive savings of time.  I bet the time savings, if any exists at all, between restoring a subset of my data (from a matching single-disk backup) and restoring my entire RAID volume (from a same-size external striped RAID set) is minimal once all factors are accounted for.  Again, assuming I'm not willing to deal with with a bunch of individually mounted volumes on my server, which I'm not.

So, what I have is essentially RAID5+1 where the +1 is manually created mirrors on a schedule to otherwise protected drives.  Yes, to fit it all, my backup volume is a RAID-0 striped array, but it is only a two-disc set, and it is only for redundancy (and there are two of them, cycled in rotation).

So... It is a compromise, either way, agreed.  You have to decide what makes the most sense to you.  I just wanted to point out that the often-cited "downside" to hardware RAID (lose too much, and you lose it all) isn't really always worth the tradeoffs needed to avoid it.

Also...

And from where I'm standing, no file system will ever implement the flexibility I have right now. All those fancy file systems are usually limited to the same conditions an actual RAID gives you (same size drives, primarily).

That may be (almost certainly is) true.

However, the latter statement is wrong.  btrfs does that without issue.  Not that btrfs is the be-all-and-end-all.  There are problems with it.  The filesystem itself is pretty stable and well understood, but the tools that go with it are still pretty beta quality.  And, it isn't anything that would ever be integrated into Windows or OSX as-is.

I really hope Microsoft gives us a good solution.  I'd prefer, in a dream scenario, that btrfs (or something like it) just "took over the world" so that the filesystem could be truly cross-platform.  But, that's probably a pipe dream (unless Apple surprises everyone and replaces HFS+ with it, rather than rolling their own, but that is also pretty long-shot).

But, in any case, btrfs can do RAID-equivalent striping with parity with non-matching drives.  When you build a RAID in btrfs, it doesn't raid across the volumes.  It never uses the volumes directly.  It operates at the level of "chunks".  These are 1Mb (I think that's the default size, anyway) "virtual volumes" essentially.  It then stripes across these (and keeps track of which physical volumes they're hosted on, rotating through physical volumes as needed to preserve parity).  That way, it can operate across non-matched drives without sacrificing a ton of "spare area" (like hardware RAID does and even things like FlexRAID and Drobo's solution often do).  And, you can "dial in" exactly how much parity you want, since it isn't limited to or linked to physical drive count.

More important to me, however, is the fact that it protects filesystem data instead of just filesystem metadata.  That's the major flaw in my, and essentially everyone's, backup system using currently available, friendly filesystems.  My backup system will happily back up corrupt file data, and give me no way to "get it back".  NTFS journals the filesystem metadata, but not the data itself, and gives you no way to detect "spontaneous" changes to data on disk.  That's terrifying.  I have some mitigation due to my rotation scheme (which has its own benefits), but...  Shudder.  With a system like btrfs, it doesn't matter because:

1. It would detect the data corruption.
2. You can unwind even intentional (user-initiated) writes, like Apple's "Time Machine" (but not based on flaky hacks and corrupts-itself-at-the-drop-of-a-hat HFS+).  And this ability to unwind data writes is automatic with every single write (data writes are journaled), if configured as such.  With sufficient spare area, you can "roll backwards" all the way to the moment the drive was first formatted.

All the other benefits of a modern filesystem really "change the game" for backups.  It might not be flexible in the "traditional" ways you had before, but it is flexible in a whole set of new ways that are hard to consider when trained to think "classically".
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newsposter

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 12:10:39 pm »

I've mentioned this before....

Used blade chassis, from Dell and IBM, are sold for a fraction of what they go for new.

On ebay last week there was an IBM Blade Center H, with 8 dual xeon blades, a pair of router blades, and a pair of raid storage blades with lots of 2.5" drives on board for less than $600.  Even if you have to replace all of the 2.5" drives with new you've still got a lot of machine for the price.

My personal Blade Center is now config'd with three dual xeon blades, a router blade (gigE), and two Power6 blades.  The Power6 blades are running both AIX and iSeries, I do a lot of work in that area and having a home dev/test setup is very very nice.

If I felt the need, I could host all of the storage on AIX using IBMs GPFS or even stock JFS3.  Both of those filesystems are more reliable/bulletproof than NTFS or the more popular Linux filesystems.  Could even run Linux for RHEL or SUSE on the Power blades instead of stock AIX.  That's a level of complexity most people will not want to deal with though.

I'm buying the raid blades as I find them, eventually all of the storage in the blade center will be run from the raid blades via iSCSI.

I've seen both Dell and IBM blades fully populated with dual xeons, 16Gb ram, and multiple hard drives for about $50- each.

Neither IBM or Dell officially support it, you can mount the new 2Tb and 4Tb sata or sas drives on the compute blades.  The raid blades will likewise take the largest 2.5" drives around.

If you have the basement or garage space to host a blade chassis that is from 25u to 35u in height, it's an option to consider.

Some patience in your shopping might find you with a lot of compute and storage power for a nice price.
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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 12:19:55 pm »

And this ability to unwind data writes is automatic with every single write (data writes are journaled), if configured as such.  With sufficient spare area, you can "roll backwards" all the way to the moment the drive was first formatted.

If you google about a bit, there is an awesome demo from one of the btrfs devs at some nerd-conference.  I'm too lazy/busy to look for it and re-watch it to confirm, and it has been a while since I watched it, but the demo was something like this:

1. He formatted a drive as NTFS and installed Windows.
2. Then, he reformatted the drive to btrfs, and did a bunch of stuff to it (the rest of the demo).
3. Then, at the end, he unwound all of the writes to the btrfs volume back to before it was formatted.  It "became" the NTFS formatted volume again, and he booted Windows.

And, of course, you don't need to unwind the entire volume.  You can unwind writes to individual files, or even individual "blocks" of data within files.

Implemented well enough, and it changes everything about the way you backup data.  They're not there yet, but they're close.  Someone much more substantially funded (a major platform vendor) should be able to build something better-than they have.  They just have to decide to do it.  Till then, we're left having to be sysads to protect our family photos.
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Hendrik

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2014, 12:47:22 pm »

If you google about a bit, there is an awesome demo from one of the btrfs devs at some nerd-conference.  I'm too lazy/busy to look for it and re-watch it to confirm, and it has been a while since I watched it, but the demo was something like this:

1. He formatted a drive as NTFS and installed Windows.
2. Then, he reformatted the drive to btrfs, and did a bunch of stuff to it (the rest of the demo).
3. Then, at the end, he unwound all of the writes to the btrfs volume back to before it was formatted.  It "became" the NTFS formatted volume again, and he booted Windows.

And, of course, you don't need to unwind the entire volume.  You can unwind writes to individual files, or even individual "blocks" of data within files.

Even if thats true (it seems weird that btrfs would be able to restore to a point before its initial volume creation), there is always a limit to that. You obviously need to put space aside to keep the journal, even more so if you actually have a data journal instead of a metadata-journal like every other file system. Its not a feature that just comes out of thin air, stuff needs storing.
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2014, 01:27:31 pm »

Even if thats true (it seems weird that btrfs would be able to restore to a point before its initial volume creation), there is always a limit to that. You obviously need to put space aside to keep the journal, even more so if you actually have a data journal instead of a metadata-journal like every other file system. Its not a feature that just comes out of thin air, stuff needs storing.

Absolutely.

Look into it, though.  It is really quite clever.  Basically (and this is REALLY dumbing it down).  The way it works is ALL WRITES are always done to a fresh block.  No existing data is ever written in place, at a "block" level.  The magic comes in how the filesystem tracks which blocks are used, and where they live physically.  (Incidentally, this method of writing maps very, very well to NAND storage and other addressable systems).

So, instead of keeping track of backups and separate hidden "parity" drives, it is all "free" space, but that free space allows you to roll the entire filesystem back to moment X.  Moment X can move, as it runs out of room, but this happens dynamically.  If you need additional backup "room" (greater drive failure tolerance or additional "go back in time" headroom) you simply throw more free space at it.  It isn't that simple in reality because it isn't just "preserving" the existing data, but it can move existing blocks around as needed to spread them across multiple physical disks, create parity, and all of that.

So, rolling back to the pre-btrfs volume is really not that complex.  It just has to restore the blocks, which still exist because it hasn't used them (so long as you don't write across the entire volume).  In practice, you could build tools that visualize this to the user (showing available space instead of a binary free/not-free state, but as a "can roll back to date X" type of value).  You no longer have an existing data set of a "fixed" size, you have current data and total data volume, and you can control or specify variables like "survive n-simultaneous storage failures", retain data for X months/years minimum, etc.

But... The tools are sysadmin-only friendly, under active development, and somewhat troublesome still now, from what I've read (not that recently, but within the last couple months or so).  This type of filesystem has a huge amount of promise, but I don't think this particular one is there yet.

* I'm calling them blocks, but they really aren't blocks.  I don't remember this particular detail well though, so I'm using that to represent the "general idea" of what I mean.  I could have some of these details wrong, but it definitely can do (in a way that made sense something like the above) rollbacks to pre-formatted states.  It came down to "nothing is ever overwritten when possible, and if existing data has to be overwritten, it is done in the safest possible way and only to the oldest stuff first.  There were all sorts of even crazier things you could do: snapshots pulled for different times than current, saving diff-based (and compressed) snapshots off to external disks, live-comparing file versions without restoring, restoring to duplicates (not overwriting the current state), and a whole variety of other amazing abilities.
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glynor

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2014, 01:58:16 pm »

So, I just looked it up... The particular demo I was thinking of was this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxWuaozpe2I

He didn't roll back to NTFS and Windows during this demo, it was Ext2 and Linux, but the same thing applies.  I think (I could be wrong) John Siracusa talked about a demo he saw with NTFS and Windows in one of his many podcasts about filesystems and btrfs.

And the "feature" of the filesystem that enables this snapshotting is that it is designed as a Copy-on-Write filesystem (much like copy-on-write databases).
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2014, 03:31:16 pm »

Stupid question: With FlexRAID, do I need to dedicate a machine to it (i.e. separate file server) or is this something which I can run on my main system?
Stupid Really awesome idea: mount this to the left half of a PC-D8000...
 
I watched that btrfs demo and am blown away - it's incredible.
And now I hate you for bringing it to my attention, as I won't be using it any time soon.
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jmone

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2014, 07:10:59 pm »

We all have one thing in common, wanting lots of Storage Capacity!... but from there each have gone different paths as each have their own priorities, eg
- Glynor wants Pooled Drives + HA + high transfer rates = Stripped RAID
- Hendrick wants Pooled Drives + HA = UnRaid  FlexRaid
- I want Pooled Drives + Full Backup for my Media only = 2 x Drive Bender pools

FYI - I've also gone ReFS on my Win8.1 Box in the vain hope to reduce NTFS disk errors as well ... As I've not had any issues it is hard to tell if this is a benefit or not at this stage.
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Re:
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2014, 12:12:10 am »

Think Hendrik has FlexRaid, but one thing I've found useful about unraid is that the new 64bit beta can act as VM host (xen at the moment, soon will be KVM). This would allow you to have one or more htpc vm's with PCI pass through for gpu or appliance vm's. I  have a jumpbox with Plex and team viewer on it so I can get into my network remotely without have to worry about blocked ports no other networks.
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Hendrik

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2014, 03:19:57 am »

Stupid question: With FlexRAID, do I need to dedicate a machine to it (i.e. separate file server) or is this something which I can run on my main system?

Its a "simple" application. You can run it on any windows or Linux system, and still use the system just fine.
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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2014, 09:38:05 am »

This is exactly how GPFS and JFS3 work/can work, if you dedicate enough reliable space and cpu to log and journal management.  Do this all the time in AIX and iSeries, very glad to see the capabilities are coming into the x86 linux world as well.

If you google about a bit, there is an awesome demo from one of the btrfs devs at some nerd-conference.  I'm too lazy/busy to look for it and re-watch it to confirm, and it has been a while since I watched it, but the demo was something like this:

1. He formatted a drive as NTFS and installed Windows.
2. Then, he reformatted the drive to btrfs, and did a bunch of stuff to it (the rest of the demo).
3. Then, at the end, he unwound all of the writes to the btrfs volume back to before it was formatted.  It "became" the NTFS formatted volume again, and he booted Windows.

And, of course, you don't need to unwind the entire volume.  You can unwind writes to individual files, or even individual "blocks" of data within files.

Implemented well enough, and it changes everything about the way you backup data.  They're not there yet, but they're close.  Someone much more substantially funded (a major platform vendor) should be able to build something better-than they have.  They just have to decide to do it.  Till then, we're left having to be sysads to protect our family photos.
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WinoOutWest

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2014, 06:56:07 pm »

+1 for FlexRAID.

Having been (unhappily) down the raid road before I moved some 14 or so drives into a single FlexRaid volume 2 years ago and love it.  It is just my media files so I am not concerned about speed.  Also installed Sentinel HD (also +1) which alerted to me that one of my drives was failing.  Replaced the defective drive with a little help from their forum and also increased the size of the volume twice now.

Very pleased with my setup.

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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2014, 09:07:29 pm »

+1 for FlexRAID.

Having been (unhappily) down the raid road before I moved some 14 or so drives into a single FlexRaid volume 2 years ago and love it.  It is just my media files so I am not concerned about speed.  Also installed Sentinel HD (also +1) which alerted to me that one of my drives was failing.  Replaced the defective drive with a little help from their forum and also increased the size of the volume twice now.

Very pleased with my setup.
HD Sentintel is essential in my opinion. It has warned me of failure a couple of times now - with enough of a warning that I was able to remove the disk from the system and then get my data off it once a replacement had arrived.
I also use it to initialize new disks by running three passes of the surface test - so far this hasn't failed me yet.
 
As yet another temporary measure, I picked up a 4TB WD Re drive to replace the old 2TB green disk. My line of thinking is:
1. I have some data/media (family photos etc.) that is backed up, but I'd like to be on a disk which should, in theory, be more reliable than anything else in the system - even the WD Se disks that I've been trying to replace everything with.
2. When I figure out what I want to do about a case and SATA expansion (it seems like an add-in card is the best solution as that would continue working through the next upgrade) I should have enough spare ports that I can either add that 2TB back as low priority storage, or use it as a larger offline backup. (connected to a dock once a month or so)
3. It gives me another couple of TB which should hold things off another few months. Worst case scenario, I replace the remaining 2.5TB disk with another 4TB before the new build as well. (unless the price of 5-6TB enterprise disks drops)
 
But doing this has actually given me another reason why I might just forgo drive pooling altogether. While you obviously can't predict which drives are going to fail, or when, I have an idea of which ones should be most likely to fail (the oldest ones, which happen to be those damned Green disks...) and am able to prioritize what data goes where.
Of course that wouldn't matter with an unlimited budget where every disk is the same and you fill all the drive bays before you start, rather than adding them one or two at a time as required, based on the current pricing/value.
 
 
As a bonus, when I had the case open I spent a bit of time thinking about the drive order and doing a little testing, and reshuffling the order of the drives so that the hottest ones receive the most cooling (which I had done originally, but then the slowest/lowest capacity ones were swapped out with larger/faster/hotter drives) spacing them out with the slower/cooler drives, and the overall effect is that it has knocked down the max temp 3-5C depending on the disk and now the temperature across them all is a lot more even.
Things are still a bit warmer than I'd like, but it's not going to get any better in this case.
 
 
I'm still a bit unsure about the PC-D8000 though. I really like that it has generous spacing for the drives and each drive has a fan blowing air directly over it, but I'm concerned about the lack of a backplane/hot-swap capabilities - the practicalities of powering and cabling 20 drives seems like an issue
I like that a backplane/caddies will give you individual power/activity/error lights too, to help you quickly identify a specific disk.
And that left half of the case seems like nothing but dead air which will heat up. It really seems like your components are meant to go in the right, with watercooling kit on the left.
I'm wondering if a more traditional tower which can hold say 12 drives rather than 20 might be a better choice for me - though I do already have maybe 5-6TB of other drives which I could put back into use when there are 20 bays to fill.
 
It's a shame that while it's not in my listening area, it's not in a location where I'd be happy to have server-grade hardware either, as noise is still a concern.
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Hendrik

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2014, 07:40:06 am »

I'm still a bit unsure about the PC-D8000 though. I really like that it has generous spacing for the drives and each drive has a fan blowing air directly over it, but I'm concerned about the lack of a backplane/hot-swap capabilities - the practicalities of powering and cabling 20 drives seems like an issue

There are add-on hotswap backplanes for that case, sold separatedly. I briefly thought about getting them, but then didn't go for it.
Cabling the drives wasn't a big problem in the end. My SATA cables and SAS breakout cables are long enough to zip-tie them together and make everything look neat and organized, and power was even less of a problem as it neatly connects 4 drives on one power cable. I did have to run 4 drives through Molex->SATA power connectors tho, due to lack of SATA power plugs (could probably get a few more from the PSU vendor, but this worked)

I have 16 drives setup in the case right now, and room for 8 more (4 in the 3x 5.25 space with a cage), and after that is all used up in 2-3 years, I might start experiment with the empty space. For now I hooked it up with a couple fans in the back to ensure no heat piles up in there. The fans are perfectly silent, all noise I hear is the spinning of the drives - if they are turned off, it's virtually silent.
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 11:42:01 am »

There are add-on hotswap backplanes for that case, sold separatedly. I briefly thought about getting them, but then didn't go for it.
I had seen these, but they didn't really seem like "true" backplanes but were simply "dumb" connectors that let you swap out the drives just by taking the front off the case rather than opening it up. You still need to have 20x SATA power and data cables wired up to them.
My current Silverstone case uses this style of "backplane" (it includes one and you have to buy the rest ::)) and I haven't found it to be especially useful. Like you, I probably wouldn't spend the extra cash for them.
 
In the commercial rack-mount cases, they use a SAS backplane so you only have say five SAS cables and a handful of molex connectors plugged in, instead of 40 separate cables.
Because they have individual status indicators, it's easy to identify an individual drive. Even with only five in my case, I've occasionally had to try and identify a specific drive and it resulted in me pulling them all out and checking the serial numbers. :-\
 
Cabling the drives wasn't a big problem in the end. My SATA cables and SAS breakout cables are long enough to zip-tie them together and make everything look neat and organized, and power was even less of a problem as it neatly connects 4 drives on one power cable. I did have to run 4 drives through Molex->SATA power connectors tho, due to lack of SATA power plugs (could probably get a few more from the PSU vendor, but this worked)

I have 16 drives setup in the case right now, and room for 8 more (4 in the 3x 5.25 space with a cage), and after that is all used up in 2-3 years, I might start experiment with the empty space. For now I hooked it up with a couple fans in the back to ensure no heat piles up in there. The fans are perfectly silent, all noise I hear is the spinning of the drives - if they are turned off, it's virtually silent.
Thanks again for the feedback. As with everything, even if it's not ideal, it does seem like it might still be the best option available right now, as any of the rackmounted cases with a lot of drive bays are not designed to be quiet, and nothing else seems to hold this many drives.
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DarkPenguin

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2014, 01:23:00 pm »

Dell SC4020.
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6233638

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2014, 01:28:52 pm »

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DarkPenguin

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Re: I need a real storage solution.
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2014, 01:42:00 pm »

That sounds cheap.

Controller and storage in one box!  Massive cost reduction.  And it will only take up a couple slots in your datacenter.  (You have one of those in your basement, right?)
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