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[Vocalpoint]

I'm running a digital coax from my sound card to my audio system processor.

I am curious as to why you would purchase/bother with any hi res source material at all - if you are down-sampling everything to 48k. I will assume it's a limitation in your coax connections?

Also - logically I would think there should be no issue in volume variance when taking a 24/192 source and playing it back at 48k - it's possible that maybe MC is playing it back louder due to the downsampling? Maybe DEV can chime in on that?

Again - you would be better off creating 44.1 copies of your 24/192 file and play it back that way - the way you have this set now - there is no point to 24/192 source since you can never actually get the value of such resolution.

VP

[DoubtingThomas]

I am curious as to why you would purchase/bother with any hi res source material at all - if you are down-sampling everything to 48k. I will assume it's a limitation in your coax connections?

Also - logically I would think there should be no issue in volume variance when taking a 24/192 source and playing it back at 48k - it's possible that maybe MC is playing it back louder due to the downsampling? Maybe DEV can chime in on that?

Again - you would be better off creating 44.1 copies of your 24/192 file and play it back that way - the way you have this set now - there is no point to 24/192 source since you can never actually get the value of such resolution.

I always want my files to be in the highest resolution, even if I can't realize it today, someday I might.

MediaCenter won't let me use anything higher than 48k, not sure why.

[glynor]

MediaCenter won't let me use anything higher than 48k, not sure why.

Because you futzed with it.  At substantial effort as well, since you have to do them one at a time.



You have MC set to resample every possible sample rate to 48kHz.  So you'll never get anything but 48kHz, and the only native sample rates you'll get (which you should probably prefer if your output device supports them) are for files that were originally 48kHz, which is mostly video files.  The default is:

[glynor]

I should note: I'm guessing here.  But, I'd guess that, not understanding fully the implications of what you were doing, you changed this when you couldn't get a particular video file (or an errant 48kHz audio file, probably ripped from a video) to play in MC at all.  If so, this was because you have Exclusive Mode disabled, which is also bad.

Check to see if you have Exclusive Mode turned on.  Because if not, then all of your tweaking shenanigans are for naught because MC's audio is being routed through the Windows mixer.  Windows 7 and 8 have much more sane mixers than older versions, but this is still not the greatest of ideas if you care about sound quality at all.

[DoubtingThomas]

Because you futzed with it.  At substantial effort as well, since you have to do them one at a time.

You have MC set to resample every possible sample rate to 48kHz.  So you'll never get anything but 48kHz, and the only native sample rates you'll get (which you should probably prefer if your output device supports them) are for files that were originally 48kHz, which is mostly video files.  The default is:

Glynor... if you right click you can set them all to the same thing.

I made the changes you suggested, and when I tried to play a 24bit96khz file, I got...

[glynor]

Did you check for Exclusive Mode?

[DoubtingThomas]

Glynor... if you right click you can set them all to the same thing.

I made the changes you suggested,



 and when I tried to play a 24bit96khz file, I got...

[DoubtingThomas]

Did you check for Exclusive Mode?

I have Exclusive Mode turned off... on purpose.  Unless you know of another way...

I have music from MediaCenter and another media player set to the same sound card.

My home automation system also plays sound files for output to my audio system.

[glynor]

Exclusive mode only blocks other applications from using the sound device while MC is actively playing (or paused).  I use a ton of different applications for audio too (my web browser, for one), but not while I'm playing something in MC.

If Exclusive Mode is disabled, you cannot play any sample rate other than that defined as the Default Format in the Windows sound control panel.  Otherwise, the Windows mixer cannot mix the audio formats together (because MC could be playing at 192kHz while another application needs to play at 48kHz)!  That's what Exclusive Access does.  It allows MC to control the sample rate and output bitrate, rather than it being controlled by Windows.

You can't have one without the other.  If you want MC to be able to change the sample rate and bitrate to the appropriate settings for the Source file on the fly, you do this by enabling Exclusive Access.  If you don't do that, your only choice then is to set your Windows default settings as high as your output device allows, and set MC to resample everything to those settings.

But, this is non-ideal because then all your other applications on the system will use the cruddy resampling built into the Windows multimedia frameworks (probably) or fail to play altogether (in some cases).

PS. This is all covered in the wiki article I linked above.  I know, because I wrote it.  You should read it.

[Vocalpoint]

I made the changes you suggested, and when I tried to play a 24bit96khz file, I got...

This error is coming directly from your audio interface - which BTW - we have not discussed.

What exactly are you using for an audio card with MC?

VP

[glynor]

This error is coming directly from your audio interface

The audio interface is really irrelevant. If Exclusive Access is disabled (which was confirmed above) it happens because of this:



With, probably, those exact settings.

[Vocalpoint]

The audio interface is really irrelevant. If Exclusive Access is disabled (which was confirmed above) it happens because of this:

<snip>

With, probably, those exact settings.

Agreed. That is what I meant The Default props in the selected audio device....

Cheers,

VP

[glynor]

Glynor... if you right click you can set them all to the same thing.

Didn't know that.  I think you used to have to do them all individually.  Anyhow, don't do that and turn on Exclusive Access.

The other option, which is terrible and I hesitate to mention it, is to switch to DirectSound output mode.  In this case, Windows will resample the output of MC as needed to match the selected system sample rate and bitdepth.  So, MC will "think" it is playing at 192kHz (because "it" is doing that and sending it out) but Windows will resample the output itself to whatever setting is selected.

That's a bad move though, as you might as well just use MC's high quality resampler, then.  If your OS supports it, you should always use WASAPI (this is the main benefit of WASPI, that Windows doesn't muck with the output of applications as much, they just have to play by the rules).

Or just switch to iTunes like an animal.   

[glynor]

Agreed. That is what I meant The Default props in the selected audio device....

Ahh.  Sorry, I misunderstood.

[DoubtingThomas]

Thanks I will read the wiki tomorrow.

I have tried playing around with the settings tonight, I can't get anything to play in MC unless I resample to 48k as I had originally configured.

While playing with MC, my other audio player can play 44k wav files and they will play concurrently with music from MediaCenter.

I cannot enable Exclusive Access since I want/need my Home Automation system using another media player to be able to play wav files and make announcements while music is playing.

[Hendrik]

Without exclusive access you so need to resample. If you use WASAPI, it'll only accept audio in the format configured in windows, there is nothing else to do.

If you use direct sound, it should accept any format and windows will do the resampling for you, but I can only recommend to let MC do the resampling, and as such configure MC to resample everything to the format configured in windows.

Full native playback is not possible without exclusive mode.

[DoubtingThomas]

Okay... this is a good discussion, but it might cost me money...

I am using an Entech 203.2 DAC which then feeds an analog signal to my B&K Reference 50 II processors.

I suspect (hard to find specs on the Entech) that it will only accept a 48k signal, nothing higher.

My B&K's will do this..

96/24 bit A/D and 192/24 bit capable D/A Conversion - Ultra high reproduction resolution of musical details.
96/24 Bit Processing - 96/24 bit digital data and analog source material use 96 kHz, 24 bit DSP processing
during all stereo listening modes.

But the reason I had to go with an external DAC was because I am running 3 B&K's (I have 6 zones of audio in my home) and I want them to all play the same source and I am unable to get the B&K to output a line level analog signal to feed the other two daisy chained processors, some copy right protection or something...  My older B&K Reference 10 and 20 wouldn't either.  There is no way to play a digital input on Zone 2 of these processors...

So maybe I need a newer external DAC ?  I cannot use one in my sound card due to the fact that my PC is about 75ft from my audio system, across the house.

I know of no way to split a digital coax signal to feed the 3 B&K processors.

The B&K Reference 50's do have a digital coax output pass through, maybe I can figure out how to make that work and eliminate the external DAC.  Tomorrow...

[glynor]

You can split optical SPDIF with cheap splitters without issue:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2946&seq=1&format=2

(Too bad these are so ugly, but you can hide it somewhere if you don't need the switch function.)

I wouldn't recommend doing the same with electrical coax, because of the increased impedance when you split it.  Though if you're doing long cabling runs, optical is a much better choice anyway (for short runs it doesn't matter).

EDIT: Doh, that's a switch only, not a splitter.  I have a little two-way splitter from Monoprice and it works great.  I didn't find any three-way ones, but I didn't look that hard.  There's no reason you couldn't split it three ways, though you might run into signal quality issues.  This wouldn't degrade audio quality, but it might make it flaky sometimes.

The passthrough is almost certainly the way to go, and is probably exactly what that is for.

Either way, from the description of your setup, you're going through two separate DACs, which is just asking for trouble, and almost certainly NOT helping audio quality at all.

[DoubtingThomas]

Well I found I do own this...

http://www.amazon.com/CE-Labs-Video-Splitter-AV501HDX/dp/B000STMCTU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406270145&sr=8-1&keywords=av501hdx

and it claims to split digital coax...  assuming it works and I get signal through it... is there a quality issue with this device or would it be bit perfect since it's "digital"?

If this works, I could split the digital coax from my PC and feed all three B&K's to the CD input.  That would not let me play the signal on Zone2 though.. so I'd still need an external DAC that can handle the higher bit rates.

There is just no way to get a line level analog output from a digital signal in the B&K's.

If I find a DAC I can afford, I could take the digital pass through from the 2nd or 3rd B&K to the DAC and then feed the analog out to all three Zone2 inputs , that sound like it would work.  All of the Zone2 are feeding my master bathroom speaker, garage speakers and kitchen speakers, not high-end stuff so I wouldn't expect I'd need an expensive DAC.

[6233638]

There are a few things to be addressed here:

Firstly, there are two types of non-exclusive output. There is DirectSound and WASAPI.
DirectSound will accept all sample rates that you send it, and Windows will resample it to match the output rate set for your device in the Control Panel.
WASAPI will reject anything but the output rate set for your device in the Control Panel. The player has to do the resampling.
 
If you use WASAPI Exclusive mode, it allows the player to switch the sample rate being sent to the DAC.
In your case, the DAC only supports 44.1/48kHz, so changing to exclusive mode would only allow it to switch between those two sample rates.
 
If you're mostly playing CD-quality music, I might suggest setting the DAC 44.1kHz rather than 48 in the Control Panel.
Since you aren't just sending it audio from Media Center, you probably want to leave it in a non-exclusive mode. I'd suggest WASAPI, with Media Center handling the resampling.



Now as I understand it, your setup is that you are using three AVRs to send audio to six different rooms.
While the AVRs will accept a digital input (either 24/96 or 24/192) they cannot route this audio to a second zone. They can only send an analog input to the second zone.
 
So what you're doing is sending the audio to an external DAC, and either splitting or daisy-chaining the analog output from this to all three AVRs, which are in turn sending that to two zones each.
This means that one input gets sent to all six rooms.
 
You could replace the DAC with a newer model that supports high resolutions (while it accepts a 24-bit input, the DAC itself is 20-bit) but honestly I don't see much reason to if you are happy with the sound quality.
 


Now something that I don't know is whether the AVRs can only split a signal to two zones, or if they can route different inputs to each - as long as zone 2's is an analog input.
If they can do this, you have another option.
 
If you replaced the DAC with a multichannel one, you would be able to set up six different zones in Media Center, which would give you independent audio control for each room, rather than splitting the audio from a single input across all of them.
At worst, you would have independent control over each AVR (if they take one input and split it) rather than six. (if they can send different inputs to each zone)
 
Of course, that's only if it's a feature that you want to use. If you are happy sending one input to all six rooms, I'd leave things as they are.

[glynor]

Since you aren't just sending it audio from Media Center, you probably want to leave it in a non-exclusive mode. I'd suggest WASAPI, with Media Center handling the resampling.

That is, of course, the other option.

But I'd say... Why?

Since MC only "locks" the audio device while it is actively playing, it really isn't that big of a deal.  The only time this gets in my way is if I want to listen to music while I do something else that also has sound on the system.  This is relatively rare... Basically just playing games.

And, it is easy enough to make a second zone that is non-exclusive and resamples (or just uses DirectSound) for those rare instances.

That's what I have on my HTPC.  My "normal" zone is set to exclusive, and so everything plays natively.  But, I have an "alternate" zone called "Shared" with all the same exact settings, except Exclusive is disabled and MC is set to resample everything to the setting I have selected in Windows.  It works great, when I need it.  But that's not often.  At all.

[glynor]

I should add that otherwise I generally agree that there is probably little reason to tweak your existing setup if you're happy with the sound quality. I did misunderstand a bit above...  If you're going analog out of your DAC to the processors, then you don't have two DACs in line.

I'd just set up the zones, and not worry about the rest.

[6233638]

That is, of course, the other option.
But I'd say... Why?

I think it depends how you're using the PC and what applications you are using.
Some programs don't recover well if another application takes exclusive access while they are running, and have to be restarted after playback stops.
Or sometimes you pause music, walk away, and go to use the other application without realizing that MC is paused and holding access to the device.
Or sometimes you want to be able to hear audio from multiple sources. E.g. mail notifications even though music is being played, game audio but not music etc.
 
Most of my devices are configured for exclusive output, but my HDMI (TV Speakers) and AirFoil zones are not.

[DoubtingThomas]

Well as I stated, I must have the ability for multiple PC sources to send audio to my audio system over the digital coax output of my sound card to my audio system.  MediaCenter is one and 2nd media player is another.  The "other" media player is used by my home automation system to play informative wav file audio about things occurring in my house.  (like warning me if someone drives down my driveway, or caller id info.  Many times the system will just send the audio, leaving MC playing.  Other times it will pause MC before making the announcement.  Therefore I need non-exclusive access.

While my current set up works, I have some ideas to play around to play higher bit rate material without downsampling to 48k, will I hear the difference?  I don't know, but it will still be a fun little project/experiment.

I've had this set up since about 2004 before there really any high sample rate recordings.  But 10 years of time in tech is an eternity.  Back then I had different processors that would only take 48k.  My current B&K model claims it will accept 192k, but I don't know if digital coax will do 192k.

First I'll try a direct digital coax connection to one of my B&K processor to see if it will even play higher resolution audio files, the specs say it should, it does, then I other things to try.  Gonna be a fun day.

Thanks everyone for the input and idea and education.  I'll report back later with my findings.

[glynor]

Well as I stated, I must have the ability for multiple PC sources to send audio to my audio system over the digital coax output of my sound card to my audio system.  MediaCenter is one and 2nd media player is another.  The "other" media player is used by my home automation system to play informative wav file audio about things occurring in my house.  (like warning me if someone drives down my driveway, or caller id info.  Many times the system will just send the audio, leaving MC playing.  Other times it will pause MC before making the announcement.  Therefore I need non-exclusive access.

Gotcha.

Just for the record... How I'd do this is:

1. Connect the Home Automation system to another, separate audio output on your computer (the crappy onboard analog outs, for example).
2. If you can, connect this to an entirely separate audio system (separate speakers and everything).  Though this may not be desired or practical.
3. Assuming #2 isn't possible, then I'd mix it in hardware with a physical mixer.  That way, the "good" audio can be kept at unity, and exclusive, and the "junky, notification" audio can be set appropriately and mixed in with a high-quality, reliable, physical mixer.

That would also help solve volume level issues, and make it easier to tweak.  The mixer can also be controlled, assuming you get a good one, by your HA system.  But, that's just me, and I have a pile of high-quality pro-audio mixers in my basement at all times.

But, either way, now you know the limits and options.  I do think that generally for HQ audio, though, using Exclusive Access mode whenever possible, and using Zones to handle the times when you can't, is the ideal solution (and it sounds like 6233638 agrees).

[6233638]

While my current set up works, I have some ideas to play around to play higher bit rate material without downsampling to 48k, will I hear the difference?  I don't know, but it will still be a fun little project/experiment.

I've had this set up since about 2004 before there really any high sample rate recordings.  But 10 years of time in tech is an eternity.  Back then I had different processors that would only take 48k.  My current B&K model claims it will accept 192k, but I don't know if digital coax will do 192k.

It depends on the age of the transmitter/receiver. It's only recently that 192kHz support has become common for S/PDIF connections.

Most implementations will do 24/96 though.
If you have the ability to use HDMI, that should do 24/192 no problem.

1. Connect the Home Automation system to another, separate audio output on your computer (the crappy onboard analog outs, for example).
2. If you can, connect this to an entirely separate audio system (separate speakers and everything).  Though this may not be desired or practical.
3. Assuming #2 isn't possible, then I'd mix it in hardware with a physical mixer.  That way, the "good" audio can be kept at unity, and exclusive, and the "junky, notification" audio can be set appropriately and mixed in with a high-quality, reliable, physical mixer.

Considering that the DAC only does 44.1/48kHz, and most music is 44.1, I would just stick to that with a non-exclusive output.
 
As long as you resample and control volume via Media Center (or the AVR) it should be just as good as an exclusive output - with the option of having other sources mixed in.
 
Setting up an entirely different "network" of audio to those six locations seems like a lot of trouble for little benefit.
Now if I was starting from scratch, that's probably how I would set things up.

[DoubtingThomas]

Gotcha.

Just for the record... How I'd do this is:

1. Connect the Home Automation system to another, separate audio output on your computer (the crappy onboard analog outs, for example).
2. If you can, connect this to an entirely separate audio system (separate speakers and everything).  Though this may not be desired or practical.
3. Assuming #2 isn't possible, then I'd mix it in hardware with a physical mixer.  That way, the "good" audio can be kept at unity, and exclusive, and the "junky, notification" audio can be set appropriately and mixed in with a high-quality, reliable, physical mixer.

That would also help solve volume level issues, and make it easier to tweak.  The mixer can also be controlled, assuming you get a good one, by your HA system.  But, that's just me, and I have a pile of high-quality pro-audio mixers in my basement at all times.

But, either way, now you know the limits and options.  I do think that generally for HQ audio, though, using Exclusive Access mode whenever possible, and using Zones to handle the times when you can't, is the ideal solution (and it sounds like 6233638 agrees).

I have considered your option 2 many times... a totally separate audio setup with speakers in all rooms for Home Automation messages.  That would also have the advantage of the HA messages not blasting when I have the music turned up...

Tell me more about a physical mixer... where it it go in the audio chain?  It is analog or digital?

[DoubtingThomas]

It depends on the age of the transmitter/receiver. It's only recently that 192kHz support has become common for S/PDIF connections.

Most implementations will do 24/96 though.
If you have the ability to use HDMI, that should do 24/192 no problem.

Considering that the DAC only does 44.1/48kHz, and most music is 44.1, I would just stick to that with a non-exclusive output.
 
As long as you resample and control volume via Media Center (or the AVR) it should be just as good as an exclusive output - with the option of having other sources mixed in.
 
Setting up an entirely different "network" of audio to those six locations seems like a lot of trouble for little benefit.
Now if I was starting from scratch, that's probably how I would set things up.

I'm using B&K Reference 50 Series II processors... no HDMI inputs.  Using hdmi would also create another problem, cable length.  My PC is about 75 feet away from my audio system.  Digital coax has no issues, but hdmi has cable length issues without using expensive active cables. (which I am using to get video from my LR satellite receiver back to my bedroom using an hdmi splitter)

I have thought about the separate audio setup for home automation sounds.  It could use a cheap amp and even be mono, maybe some cheap in-celing speakers.  Since I own a ranch style home, I can get wire anywhere I want from above or up from the crawlspace.

[6233638]

Nice - that might not be too big a job to do then.
The mixer would be an analog device that sits between the DAC and the AVR.

[DoubtingThomas]

Nice - that might not be too big a job to do then.
The mixer would be an analog device that sits between the DAC and the AVR.

I've run so much wire in this house for audio, video and home automation, sometimes I think the house is sagging...

I'll think about the pro mixer idea, so basically it's combing one or more analog signals?  I wonder if that would be better than having the PC do it in the digital domain?

[glynor]

I'll think about the pro mixer idea, so basically it's combing one or more analog signals?  I wonder if that would be better than having the PC do it in the digital domain?

Not necessarily better in theory, though probably better in practice unless you're using Pro Audio gear with ASIO drivers and multi-channels (in which case, you wouldn't have this issue).

Yes.  Just like a mixer in a sound studio.  They have them that are rack-mount, ones that can be controlled via RS-232, USB, and even now via iPad apps.  You wouldn't need anything too fancy.  The idea would be to have:

Channel 1/2 - The analog line from your DAC on your computer music set at 0db.  This can be a Zone in MC, used by default, and NOT enabled in Windows for regular system sounds.

Channel 3/4 - your HA system's outputs (you can just use the junk Realtek onboard outs, or whatever for these) set at whatever volume level is comfortable for those notifications

Main Outs - connected to the B&Ks (or amp), set at 0db.

That way the volume level for the notifications would no longer be tied to the level of your music playback, and you wouldn't be locked into using non-exclusive outs, or any of those other shenanigans.

[DoubtingThomas]

Not necessarily better in theory, though probably better in practice unless you're using Pro Audio gear with ASIO drivers and multi-channels (in which case, you wouldn't have this issue).

Yes.  Just like a mixer in a sound studio.  They have them that are rack-mount, ones that can be controlled via RS-232, USB, and even now via iPad apps.  You wouldn't need anything too fancy.  The idea would be to have:

Channel 1/2 - The analog line from your DAC on your computer music set at 0db.  This can be a Zone in MC, used by default, and NOT enabled in Windows for regular system sounds.

Channel 3/4 - your HA system's outputs (you can just use the junk Realtek onboard outs, or whatever for these) set at whatever volume level is comfortable for those notifications

Main Outs - connected to the B&Ks (or amp), set at 0db.

That way the volume level for the notifications would no longer be tied to the level of your music playback, and you wouldn't be locked into using non-exclusive outs, or any of those other shenanigans.

I'm confused... if the mixer is inserted in the analog signal at some common point before it goes to all the B&K zones, then the HA notifications would also be affected by the volume control settings on the B&K processors.

I could see this working if I inserted the mixer AFTER the processor, between the processor and the power amps, but that would require 6 mixers.  Then the music signal volume would vary, but the HA input would always be constant.

The mixer idea seems like it would solved the exclusive use issue for sure, but I don't see how it would help wht the HA announcement volume?  What am I missing?

[glynor]

I have two of these and they work extremely well for applications like this:
http://www.shure.com/americas/products/mixers-dsp/scm262-stereo-microphone-mixer

If you want something that can be controlled by your HA system, though, you'll probably need to spend a bit more.  Something like one of these would work well, and could handle zone distribution duties as well.

http://www.shure.com/americas/products/mixers-dsp/scm820-digital-intellimix-automatic-mixer

or maybe something a bit lower-end like:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/856858-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_MX351A_AT_MX351a_SMARTMIXER_5ch_AUTOMATIC.html

Of course, if you're going that high-end, it would make more sense to get yourself a good analog zone mixer, so that you don't have to do that with simple splitters and you get more control.

In the end, though, the ceiling speakers and cheap amp from wherever is probably almost as good, and simpler.  That's exactly what I was thinking when I made the suggestion.

[DoubtingThomas]

I have two of these and they work extremely well for applications like this:
http://www.shure.com/americas/products/mixers-dsp/scm262-stereo-microphone-mixer

If you want something that can be controlled by your HA system, though, you'll probably need to spend a bit more.  Something like one of these would work well, and could handle zone distribution duties as well.

http://www.shure.com/americas/products/mixers-dsp/scm820-digital-intellimix-automatic-mixer

or maybe something a bit lower-end like:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/856858-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_MX351A_AT_MX351a_SMARTMIXER_5ch_AUTOMATIC.html

Of course, if you're going that high-end, it would make more sense to get yourself a good analog zone mixer, so that you don't have to do that with simple splitters and you get more control.

In the end, though, the ceiling speakers and cheap amp from wherever is probably almost as good, and simpler.  That's exactly what I was thinking when I made the suggestion.

Thanks I'm saving these links for future consideration.  Audio quality would be the highest goal.  At this time I couldn't conceive of any need to control it from my HA system, to me it would be a set and forget item.

The separate HA system using some cheap mono setup with cheap in-ceiling speakers is now bouncing around my head again.. it would be a good winter project !  Then I could use exclusive mode and no HA too loud volume issues.

Sometime I think I shouldn't be cutting too many holes in my drywall, not good for resale.  But my current plan is that this is my last house.

[glynor]

The mixer idea seems like it would solved the exclusive use issue for sure, but I don't see how it would help wht the HA announcement volume?  What am I missing?

You can set relative channel levels on the mixer.

The volume level on the B&Ks would be fixed.

[DoubtingThomas]

I now have the coax digital out from my sound card directly in to the CD digital coax input on one of my B&K's.

I have the windows sound setup you showed me yesterday set for 96/24bit and MC set to resample everything to 96k.  So far I seem to be able to play all sound files in all resolutions.

Also in an obscure area of the B&K manual... I found that if the processors is set for Lt/Rt it will provide an analog line level output on the TapeOut jacks, so I connected a cable from the TapeOut to the analog CD in on the same B&K processor.  Now I can play the same input signal from the digital coax on zone B... what a rube goldberg set up... but it works.

I've looped the digital coax from one B&K to the next using the coax in and out jacks and then get each to play on Zone B.  It will eliminate my external DAC which could only process 48k signals.

It does not solve the mutual access issue, but it lays the framework to do so.  I'm really leaning towards a separate audio "system" with it's own amp and speakers around the house for my HomeAutomation notification sounds.  I'd use a cheap amp, and cheap in-ceiling speakers.

This has been an interesting mental exercise, Thanks.

Fortunately, I have all my audio gear in a special built "audio room" with open shelves with easy access to both the front panes and the back connections.

Are there any down sides of up sampling all to 96k that I should know about?

[glynor]

Are there any down sides of up sampling all to 96k that I should know about?

Nah.  Not really.

In theory, it is better to use native sample rates and resample only for compatibility reasons.  But, MC uses very high-quality resampling algorithms, and so... Meh.  It doesn't hurt anything.  Upsampling doesn't make it any better than native, but with MC's engine, it doesn't really hurt either.

[DoubtingThomas]

Thanks Glynor and 6233638 and VocalPoint and Hendrik for all the valuable info.

Can I hear a difference?  I doubt it, I think it would take double blind A/B testing to be sure, but I have no way to pull that off.

Still I like having my system "better" even if only in theory.

Once I create my 2nd sound distribution system (winter project) for my home automation announcements and go to exclusive access, then I think I'm set up as best as can be till the next big thing comes out.

I'd need a third sound card, no problem.  One for MediaCenter, the other for office computer speakers, and the new one for the Home Automation sound system.

[DoubtingThomas]

Something is still confusing me...

It seems that since I am not using exclusive access, that I must match the sampling rate set in MC to what's set in the config for my sound card.  If they mismatch, MC will not play.

However I have another media player that plays wav files of varying sample rates to that same sound card, and they all play every time, whether or not MC is playing or not.

What am I misunderstanding?

[6233638]

DirectSound will resample any input to match your device settings.
WASAPI using the non-exclusive mode will reject any input but your device settings.
 
 
So the other application is either using DirectSound (likely) or resampling the audio without informing you of it, if the output is WASAPI.
 
Using a WASAPI output and having Media Center resample is probably better than letting DirectSound do the resampling.

[Matt]

Something is still confusing me...

It seems that since I am not using exclusive access, that I must match the sampling rate set in MC to what's set in the config for my sound card.  If they mismatch, MC will not play.

However I have another media player that plays wav files of varying sample rates to that same sound card, and they all play every time, whether or not MC is playing or not.

What am I misunderstanding?

The other player isn't using exclusive mode.  That means it takes any input format and mixes it to the cards format.  Exclusive is different.

[DoubtingThomas]

The other player isn't using exclusive mode.  That means it takes any input format and mixes it to the cards format.  Exclusive is different.

Both MC and the other small media player are sending data to the same sound card device.

And I don't have MC set for exclusive access.

[Matt]

Both MC and the other small media player are sending data to the same sound card device.

It's not what soundcard but how it talks to the soundcard.

[glynor]

To be absolutely, crystal clear (because maybe 6233638's comments were not well enough explained):

You cannot play sounds on Windows to the same sound device simultaneously with differing sample rates or bitdepths (or channel counts).  The characteristics of the streams being played MUST match.  This applies to all Windows applications. Period.  No exceptions.

How this is handled depends on the framework the application uses to talk to the sound device.

DirectSound: All audio is automatically resampled, by Windows, to  the setting specified in the system Sound Control Panel.  There is no way to play a 48kHz file natively, for example, if the Windows Sound control panel is set to 44.1kHz.  Windows will transparently resample the output in the background to match whatever is set as the default.  This can be considered both the "legacy" mode and "easy" mode.  Playback won't fail if you send it the wrong settings, but it won't sound very good either.

WASAPI: The OS provides no automatic resampling or conversion of any kind.  The application is responsible for delivering a format that will work.  This can be done either via:

* Exclusive Mode: the sound device is locked to that application, and in exchange, the application can play at any settings supported by the sound device's driver.

* Shared Mode: the sound device is locked to the settings set in the Windows Sound Control Panel, and all attempts to play a stream with any other settings will fail (because WASAPI provides no automatic resampling support).

ASIO works a bit differently and is more variable (depending on the driver) so it isn't worth covering here.

[DoubtingThomas]

To be absolutely, crystal clear (because maybe 6233638's comments were not well enough explained):

You cannot play sounds on Windows to the same sound device simultaneously with differing sample rates or bitdepths (or channel counts).  The characteristics of the streams being played MUST match.  This applies to all Windows applications. Period.  No exceptions.

How this is handled depends on the framework the application uses to talk to the sound device.

DirectShow: All audio is automatically resampled, by Windows, to  the setting specified in the system Sound Control Panel.  There is no way to play a 48kHz file natively, for example, if the Windows Sound control panel is set to 44.1kHz.  Windows will transparently resample the output in the background to match whatever is set as the default.

WASAPI: The OS provides no automatic resampling or conversion of any kind.  The application is responsible for delivering a format that will work.  This can be done either via:

* Exclusive Mode: the sound device is locked to that application, and in exchange, the application can play at any settings supported by the sound device's driver.

* Shared Mode: the sound device is locked to the settings set in the Windows Sound Control Panel, and all attempts to play a stream with any other settings will fail (because WASAPI provides no automatic resampling support).

ASIO works a bit differently and is more variable (depending on the driver) so it isn't worth covering here.

Thanks Glynor.  I currently have MediaCenter set up for non-exclusive access using WASAPI and that means I need to have MC output the same sample rate as I have the Windows device set up for.  The other media player has no settings to choose the output framework, so it is not WASAPI, and Windows handles any re-sampling required to match what I have the sound device set for in windows.  I think I get it now and it makes sense.

I ordered another sound card today to set up my separate audio distribution system for my home automation announcements and unpacked an old Sony receiver to use for the amp.  I'll be going to Exclusive Mode soon.  I live in a very small town and there is no place that sells any PC cards.

Thanks again for the info and patience.

[DoubtingThomas]

I have installed this new Diamond sound card ...  It's not easy finding a PCI-E sound card with up to 24bit/192k playback and a digital coax output.

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Multimedia-XtremeSound-Channels-XS71HD/dp/B00E3RH61C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406752387&sr=8-1&keywords=XS71HD

I now have 3 sound cards in my system.

• Windows sounds... monitor speakers
• For my home automation announcements - separate audio system, mono, 6 speakers around the house.
• The Diamond card above, set for exclusive access and no re-sampling.  Digital Coax to my audio system.

The Diamond will do ASIO, but... always a but... it will not work unless I have the Diamond card set as the "default device" in Windows.  That of course won't work for my setup.  I'll call Diamond on Monday... but WASAPI is good.

Again, thanks everyone for your help and patience.

The volume level is different than the old sound card... no problem, but now I need to reset all the levels in my 6 audio zones and "save" them in the B&K processor as the new start up volume.