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[Udo_1]

Well HTH,

You’re right, but I think many of those guys out here have some different meaning about beta testing. To my knowledge, before beta comes alpha. And that’s where I think we are right now. Beta testing to me means tweaking out a little problems, but here we talk about some major ones.
What makes me mad is that people paying money for what they think is a beta product, but as we see here it isn’t. If  you give this one to a freak, its fine. He likes the challenge. But think about all the others, eg. Stacy. She doesn’t know to much about computers, registry and all this stuff. They just like to enjoy their music etc.

On the other hand, I don’t understand JRiver, because major problems like this will actually fall back on their image. They probably have a lot of pressure on their shoulders right now, and one knows a little about sw-development can imagine, that you reach a point where you get a situation like ‘one bug out, two bugs in’.

For example: After reading all this comment, I tried ripping a CD and surprise, it won’t work, either from my cdrom, nor from my cdrw. This was working in the previous version. With other  words: they start doing patchwork right now.

For me, Harry, you’re right, my consequences is: I go back to the 7.2. I’m tired of spending all my time in this frustrating stuff, which is going down and not up.

Udo

udo.siegmund@foni.net

[bennyd]

This is all part of beta testing, if you don't like testing, stick with your current version until version 8 is released.
Look what Microsoft did with Windows XP, and still it's not perfect.

[Doof]

Actually, the state that MJ8 is in right now is exactly what betas typically are. Most of the features are in place and running, and bugs are being reported and fixed.

Alphas are much much worse. A lot of features aren't in place, the thing typically crashes every few minutes or so, and it's main purpose is to just show off the interface and some of the planned features.

An alpha will crash on the majority of systems and while doing seemingly random things. Betas will crash on a very few systems and typically only when doing some very specific tasks. The 8 beta is running very well on a lot of systems with only some niggling problems. Most of the show stoppers are gone. Those systems still experiencing major crashes either have some special configuration issues that need to be addressed (and there's no better way to find those issues and fix them than with beta testing) or have something wrong with the system. It's pretty typical for various things to be broken in one build that weren't in a previous build, and then be fixed in the build after that.

I take it you weren't around when the MJ8 alpha was released. That was a mess. And I think the only reason JimH let us see it is because some of us (like me) where whining so much to see it. I still have one of the alphas if you want to take a look at it and see how far they've come. It'll put the whole thing into perspective for you.

There's a reason that the main page is still advertising 7.2. 8 is not ready for general consumption yet, and that's why there's no mention of it on the main page. The only people running it are those that dug a little deeper to find out that it even existed. And those that bought it did so either because they
A. Didn't understand what a beta was and didn't know what they were getting into.
B. Were advised that buying 8 was better than buying 7.2 because the license would last longer than a 7 license - they should still have evaluated 8 and decided if they wanted to put up with it being a Beta for a bit longer before deciding to buy.
C. Have enough faith in J River to know that 8 will be as great a product (better) than 7.2 once it's finished.

[JimH]

I once was invited to a small but very nice dinner at a comfortable country house in England.  One of the other guests showed up in a cranberry colored velvet jacket and calf skin slippers.  You get the picture.

The other guests were talking about planes and boats and all kinds of toys when they began talking about a yacht that the cranberry jacket owned in Cowes.  Having had not much to say in the conversation so far, and consequently fairly well along with the wine, I ventured "Hey, a boat -- let's go!".  He didn't seem to hear me, so I said, "Really sounds like fun!".  Cranberry velvet stopped speaking to his host in mid-sentence, turned to me, and in a loud whisper said, "Get your own boat."  He then turned back to the host and finished speaking.

It took me a few more years before I understood.

[Scronch]

One time I saw a frog in a wading pool.

(I'll explain mine if JimH explains his.)

[KingSparta]

I electrocuted frogs in Germany in 1977 all day with a 1.5 KW generator

[JimH]

Scronch,
Did you tell the frog he didn't have any business swimming in the pool?

[bennyd]

I once had a purple vision......

[kitfox]

Guess at translation: host is quirky about some things--one being that he wants to stick with the conversation at hand (keep doing things the way that they are currently done), and if what interests you most is taking the present conversation down a different path (by going boating--e.g. changing the way things are done), go start that conversation elsewhere . . . (get your own boat/company), because the quirky host knows full well that he owns a boat, had considered the option of boating, but chose to have the conversation instead, and he might well consider it presumptuous (and perhaps a tad arrogant) that guests would present their unsolicited opinions about whether the host should be boating or conversing, much less declare that they know what is best for the host and his boat.

Host is trying to say this politely with an analogy.  My guess, anyway.

Michael

[lise]

Scronch,

I often end up laughing out loud at some of the posts in interact.  But I gotta say, I don't think I EVER laughed as loud as I just did!

[Doof]

Except that it wasn't the host with the boat in Jim's parable. It was another guest.

[zevele1]

kitfox
Many post go this way.Look at profiles and pictures,a lot here are not tenagers
Most of them are old frogs-killers-boatless-hyppies,and we just have acid feedback from time to time.......
Concerning the problem with beta.As far as i can see,it is still 7 you get to download from the home page,from cnet and others places.
You do not get 8 by accident.If you download 8 and pay for it, only 2 possibilitys:
-Or you know what you do
-If not, better you get your own frog

[kitfox]

Doof

Understood. Didn't think that info was relevant to the analogy. In the first story, the host and boat owner were two seperate people, because that's the way it unfolded in real life, not becaause it needed to be that way to make the point. In the case of this forum, the host and boat owner just happen to be the same person, which actually adds emphasis to the point of the analogy. Also, by the phrase "changing the way things are done," I mean when guests come to the forum and behave as if they are taken aback and disgusted with JRiver company policies, not in changing MJ itself, which after all, is the purpose of the forum. Also, there's the part about how the boat owner just tried to politely disregard the presumptous little twit of a guest (sorry), until that new guest just became too much of a pest to ignore, and then the boat owner summed up his feelings on the matter with four simple single-syllable words.

Anyway, it was just my interpretation. I didn't do so good with Plato's cave analogy either, I'm afraid. Oh--remember, it's my interpretation of the analogy not necessarily my opinion on the topic (not that they differ greatly).

Michael

[Udo_1]

Kitfox,

I’ve got your point. I’m not talking about those who accidentally downloaded the MJ8, I’m talking about those who bought MJ8. I paid for my 7.2 and tested several 8.xx.

It’s amazing, how many echo and comments one gets, if you bring up some critique. >roblem with the writer<  asked a serious question long before my comment and there is not a single respond on this up to now.

Udo

[Doof]

Eh, I'm just picking nits.

One of those nasty habits I carry over from another board I read regularly (the one with the collage grads ). Those people are enough to make me tear my hear out. If I had any.

You're interpretation is the best I've read so far.

[IQ0]

Jim H,

You wrote, "Cranberry velvet stopped speaking to his host in mid-sentence, turned to me, and in a loud whisper said, 'Get your own boat.' ... It took me a few more years before I understood."

Was the name of the Cranbery velvet's boat "Source Code"?
Is your boat named, Medai Jukebox version 8.0.198
Just another velvet jacket.

Nothings changed; only the players.

I  challenge you to think about these things.  Perhaps the metaphor can be changed.

This is not wood.  The same object can occupy more than one place at the same time for virtually no additonal cost.

Hoarding, coveting, and hiding what was a scarce resource, can be replaced with the joy of documenting and sharing data structure design, hardware interface, and source code.

Hoarding, coveting, and hiding Digital Objects makes debugging and creating much harder.
8,198 versions??

It is kind of like the inveterate liar.   You have to have a tremendous memory to pull it off.
What is needed is a new way to share the wealth.  Inclusion, not exclusion. Sharing, not hoarding; Revealing, not hiding.

There are some smart bar flys here.  Rather than delete models that harness the potential of Digital Objects why not solicit them?
Where is the thread that suggested an ACLU (Artist Compulsory Licensing Union) and an indepedent metric for rewarding such use? Is there a way to more effectively produce wealth, and share that which we have produced?

[former member]
"Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'."      [Bob Dylan, aka Zimmerman]

[kitfox]

Doof

Thanks, but it's also the ONLY pproposed explanation thus far.


Udo_1

Thanks, but I don't think that I actually have any point in this thread. I'm just interpreting the analogy in the context of the thread. If I'm correct in the interpretation, then it seems that there have been more appropriate threads for it, as your tresspass seems relatively minor. Yet, there's that part in JimH's story where the boat owner tried to ignore the brash young lout until he could take it no longer . . .

Michael

[Udo_!]

Sorry, I addressed it wrong. It should go to zevele1.

Udo

[kitfox]

Here's something: Zimmerman wrote a cute ditty, and I like to hum along to the Byrd's cover, but, more often, I find myself crying out along with Mr. Daltry "We won't get fooled again!"

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We won't get fooled again

[JimH]

Udo,
Are you using build 198?  The previous build had a ripping problem we introduced, but 198 should rip OK.

[JimH]

IQ,
zzzzzzz

[Harry|PLS|The|PLS|Hipster]

<>

Zevele1...are you sure you're your not William Burroughs? How about Terry Southern?

Udo: can't argue with your main point - that there are a lot of people who wander in here without sufficient expertise to deal with beta issues. I'm not exactly a gearhead myself. Wouldn't hurt if JRiver made it clear, maybe on the main 7.2.280 download page.

Yeah, I know - we're all grown-ups, etc. I wandered into that firefight in an earlier thread on saving licenses, and I'm not exactly a determinist myself, but some people do make innocent mistakes, and there's no law against giving them enough data to make an intelligent decision on their own. It's an matter of basic fairness, and I think that some of us are getting a little stiff-necked about it because we know better, even if others don't.

Not so sure on your other point. Seems to be a major difference of opinion on how to distinguish alpha from beta, and how wide-spread the current problems are. My bias, but there seem to be continuing issues with the burner, but that's my problem for the moment, because I took the risk of working with a pre-release build. I knew what I was getting into, at least in broad outline, unlike Stacey, who apparently didn't. (Sorry, Stacey, no insult intended.) Once I know I'm not dealing with a finished product, its my responsibility to monitor the forum to see what the continuing issues are and decide if the game is worth the candle. And enough peope had burner issues so I should have known what I might face.

Still puzzling over the velvet jacket and slippers. Is that an updated parable from the Tao?

"The Tao that can be followed is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth
While naming is the origin of the myriad things.
Therefore, always desireless, you see the mystery
Ever desiring, you see the manifestations.
These two are the same--
When they appear they are named differently.

This sameness is the mystery,
Mystery within mystery..."

HTH

[kitfox]

I guessing that, whatever the moral of JimH's story turns out to be, [former member] missed it entirely

[IQ10]

Yep (sorry borowed from King), the world can be divided into two:

1. Things
2. Names of things.

The first is dynamic.  The second is our attempt/need for an orderly process (sorry, borrowed from JimH)

[former member]

[Harry the Hipster]

Uh-oh.....he's back!!! I feel a thread-purge coming.

HTH

[Udo_1]

It is build 198! But I reinstalled it into a different dir and now it's ripping. After deinstallation from the previous version, there was dll >MJShellExt< still in there an locked bye the OS. After reboot I could delete it.

But the cr-r/w is still not recognized. I mentioned on an other thread, that changing the burner option to generic (checking the box) in 7.2 creates exactly the same message (failed to finde any r/w devices)

Udo

[Doof]

The thing          : [former member]'s physical body
Name of that thing :

[kitfox]

the universe can be divided in to 4 things:

1. the perfect forms of the things
2. the things themselves
3. the names of the things
4. the words we use when we can't think of the name of the things (e.g. whatyoumaycallit, dohicky, thingymajig or, in the case of this post, the term "things")

Michael

[JimH]

Good news, Udo.  Let's use the other thread on the second problem.  This one is about to self combust.

[JimH]

and when you run into it in the kitchen when you're going for a drink of water in the middle of the night...

5.  the blankety-blank thing

[zevele1]

To all
My post had more to do with King post than a real judgement.I would not dream of using a beta and be of any help on this forum.7 is allready a big task for me

To HTH
Do not know much about Terry Southern.Only the record sleeve,Mr Strangelove and Easy Rider.Never read a book.Will put it on my list for my next trip[sorry] to London

[kitfox]

and we forgot:

6. the eternal name of the thing, which is not, according to the Tao, the same as its name, for "The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

Micahel

[IQ10]

Kitfox wrote "I guessing that, whatever the moral of JimH's story turns out to be, [former member] missed it entirely"
I trust the irony was deliberate, and that everyone sees the perfect tautology.

Doof wrote:
"The thing : [former member]'s physical body
Name of that thing : "

Well, actually they would both be 'names of things'.  The second would me a meta-name (where are you to explain this, MHorton?); that is a name of a name of a thing.

[former member]