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[majicire]

Good evening all, Paul from San Diego, CA here as a first time poster. I could really use some expert advice. I currently own:

*Pair of PBN Montana EPS loudspeakers ($10,000/pair, review and specs here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/pbn-montana-eps-loudspeaker-specifications). *

*This is a home theater setup, so I also have the PBN Audio SPC-2 Center Speaker (http://www.pbnaudio.com/speakers/montana-speakers/spc-2-center-speaker). I have the front three speakers hooked up with Canare 4S11 speaker wire. *

*For the rear channels, I have the PBN Mini Monitor on custom stands (http://www.pbnaudio.com/speakers/montana-speakers/mini-monitor). * *The drivers are made by SEAS of Norway for PBN. *

*My TV is a Panasonic ZT-60 65" plasma (review here: http://www.cnet.com/products/panasonic-tc-p60zt60/). *

*Everything is hooked into a cheap Yamaha RX-A1020 receiver (this is what I need advice on replacing). *

*I use this system for a combination of music and movies, which are all digital and run through JRiver Media Center 20. Music is mostly FLAC, movies are mostly bdmv blu-ray disc rips. In the future, I would like to hook my computer up to an external DAC that then feeds into the pre-pro instead of bitstreaming through my EVGA GTX 680 PC video card like I am now and get some acoustic treatments for the room from GIK Acoustics (anyone have comments on this idea?). *

*So here's my dilemma. I've been scouring the internet for the best pre-processor and multichannel amplifier. I finally settled on connecting these two components with balanced XLR cables from redco.com (W2549 Mogami cable with Neutrik NC3MXX-B gold connectors, $20 each. I've been talked into going cheap on the cables and putting more money in the pre-pro and amp first because there's a more noticeable difference there with the option to upgrade to something like a Kimber Kable later if I feel the need). *

*For the pre-pro, I'm leaning towards the Marantz 7702. I don't see the value in spending a ton of money on pre-pros because the standards change so fast that they are obsolete too quickly to get your money's worth (1080p to 4k to 5k, Dobly Digital to Atmos, etc.). If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. *

*By far my biggest struggle is deciding on an amp. I think I want a five channel amp to start out with. This would allow me to upgrade to monoblocks for the big front speakers in the future and go from a 5.1 to a 7.1 on the now available channels, and I expect this (ditching the Yamaha for separates) would still be a huge improvement over the crappy all-in-one receiver that's driving everything now. I'm okay spending a bit more money on the amp as the technology doesn't seem to change as quickly. A lot of the models I've been looking at have been on the market for years and are still recommended buys. My budget for this piece is under $10,000. The two multi-channel amps that seem to get the most attention are the Parasound Halo A51 ($4,500) and the Bryston 9B SST2 or 9B SST2 Pro (I have no idea what the difference between the regular and Pro is...) which go for around $7,300 and $8,100 respectively. Unfortunately, I've seen professional reviews that express disappointment in both of these in some regards. *

*Another possibility is buying used. While there aren't as many reviews and it's a little older, the Krell S 1500/5 has gotten only positive reviews that I've seen. *

*So this is where I'm stuck. Is the Krell obsolete or is it still a viable option and is it okay to buy this used? Is there a better used alternative? Are there options other than the Bryston and Parasound that I've missed? Would these newer amps sound better than the older Krell (again, I've seen negative reviews of the newer Krells)? Is there a better amp other than the Bryston and Parasound that I've overlooked? *

*I'm trying to match the output of the amp to the 200 watts at 4 ohms RMS of my speakers so I'm not wasting money on excess capacity. I've listened to options from Classe but it seems to me like I don't need to spend the extra money on the extra power that I'll likely never need. I'm very new to the world of high fidelity audio and I feel like I've reached my limits of understanding. I would really appreciate it if anyone in this community could educate me on the best option for the best price for my situation.

[InflatableMouse]

Emotiva XMC-1

For power amps, browse around on their site as well.

[RolandA]

Well, you can go crazy with this kind of question.  If you read the Absolute Sound or similar magazines you will find that every amp they review is wonderful and much better than the one they reviewed last month, and tube amps are much better than solid state amps except they won't drive your speakers and they break and don't last, and in fact the reason they sound better is that their distortion levels are much nicer than the distortion from the solid state amps so they don't really sound better at all, and on and on.

Personally I think the Sanders Magtech amps (at about $4K for 400W/ch) are as good as anything, particularly if you use his coaxial speaker cable.  Coax speaker wire actually does have merit over other kinds of wire because it shields the amps from AM radio pickup, which plays hell with most amps' feedback systems, as well as providing a known impedance.  In general you do better with more power than less, because clipping distortion is MUCH worse than other kinds of distortion, and it starts at much quieter levels than you'd think because for one thing, music signals are very spiky with large amplitude changes, and for another, your ears work logarithmically so it is easy to have the musical peaks clipping even when the average level is quite low.  Also the current drive into the speaker can clip even though the voltage drive doesn't, due to the reactive nature of the speaker load in the bass.  So a 400W amp is likely to be better in use  than a 100W amp, let alone a 10W SET amp, no matter the quality of that first watt.

The other reason I like the Sanders stuff is that he is a no-bs kind of guy who doesn't buy into the snake oil that passes for a lot of hifi information.  He won't sell you a high priced AC cord for example, as if the last three feet of wire would make up for the 50 feet of junk and five bad splices and ancient circuit breaker in you house's wall!

[rudyrednose]

I agree fully with everything RolandA wrote, apart maybe the coax speaker cable part (twisting your standard wires would have the same effect of canceling differential noise).

However, I would not put a lot of money on a preamp-processor anymore.

High end speakers are worthwhile, as speaker technology evolve very slowly.
High end power amps are worthwhile, for the same reason.
High end pre-pro can be made almost worthless overnight due to evolving digital standards.

In the Dolby Digital ¦ DTS era I paid very good money for an Anthem AVM-1 pre-pro.  Obsoleted almost overnight by HDMI and Hi-Def audio.  
I learned the lesson and bought a Harman Kardon receiver as pre-pro (I could not afford the same class of equipment anymore).

But I recently took a step further and purchased for $400 a used Steinberg UR824 that i use as an 8-channel ADC/DAC directly connected to the power amps.

Now, JRiver is my high end preamp-processor  
Kudos to fellow users mwillems and mojave, their posts here showed me the light...

Windows system sounds were sent to the bit bucket, but with the new WDM functionality all sounds can go through JRiver alleviating the issue.
And no, I do not have switching issues (the Steinberg is very good for that, YMMV with other DACs, other posts on this forum adresses that)

The HTPC is presently my sole source (I use JRiver for OTA TV), but I could input analog signals through the ADCs of the Steinberg.  If you really need HDMI input (cable/satellite box, PS4 etc...), the combination of a dirt cheap HDMI switch (for multiple inputs), an HDCP stripper and something like a Hauppauge Colossus should do the job.

Why pay throught the nose for high end processing power when even higher end PC based processing power is much cheaper ?

Obviously, I do not do vinyl...

[stevemac]

Agree with RudyRedNose

High end speakers are worthwhile, as speaker technology evolve very slowly.
High end power amps are worthwhile, for the same reason.
High end pre-pro can be made almost worthless overnight due to evolving digital standards.

If I can ever get the minister for finance to agree I'll be building an amp using Holton Precision Audio components http://www.aussieamplifiers.com/index.htm.  Plan to start with 3 channels and then expand to cover the surrounds

If DIY is for you then the HPA-nxV200 R2 module is listed at 170W@4ohms, whilst the nxV300 is 380W@4ohms

regards,

Steve

[84GCock]

Have you looked @ PassLabs Amps?  If you want to go solid state and not tube, I think they are the best out there.  I have a 14 YO X150 driving my Martin Logan Ascents and am very satisfied.

[mschneid]

I love my high end gear and it lasts a life time... (or until you want some change)... but I think you should do some more research about what you want in your listening room and what balance of audio and video you prefer before you purchase more gear.   I would look at the amount of music in multichannel formats that you want to listen to relative to the two channel stuff. My rec presumes that you value two channel audio over multichannel audio.  So..

Do you want to hide the electronics in a closet... or is part of the experience seeing the artwork inherent in two monoblocks?

The fact of life is that great multichannel audio  for the music you want to listen to is rare and the industry does not seem to be moving that way either... So.. a great listening experience will be a two channel solution with redbook CD material ripped to Flac of most recordings and hopefully higher res remastered formats in the future. ....   (It is hard enough to find great two channel recordings  that get both performance and acoustics just right.)   So... the classic two channel strategy is a simple electronic path and then room treatments to manage the acoustics and get you a flat response at your listening chair. This would imply t that you get the two monoblocks or the two channel amp of your dreams and drive them with a 2 channel DAC and digital volume control using the PC as the source.  

Do you like the low end of your current speakers for two channel music ... or do you want a sub woofer to fix something that room treatments can't. Said another way.... how much DSP processing do you want for your two channel music experience...     Do you have JR do this job... or do you have Audessy in the pre/pro or AV receiver do this work.  The JR solution will be more complicated to implement then the consumer friendly Audessy system.  You should have this answer pretty shortly with your current gear.  You should be able to move your two speakers and the room treatments to get a good two channel experience  in your room.. I bet that your music experience is best met with two just two full range speakers and room treatments for the acoustics...


When you then think about adding mulitchannel to this system, its pretty straight forward...  You will need the DSP processing So, . where do you want the DSP..... in your PC or in the Pre/Pro. (Doing the acoustics yourself will take more work then running teh Audesyy setup)  Secondly,  how many times do you want to purchase DACS power supplies and amps. ....  (PC -Blue ray player- stand alone 2 channel Dac - Multichannel Dacs in AV Receiver or pre/Pro)


Of course the next question is how important are  the many extra channels of Atmos or DTS's upcoming solution will you want.    The WAF usually has a big role in this decision.   The good news is that sound quality experience takes a back seat in your perception when you have both video and audio to process in you head... so you don't need the same quality of gear in the multichannel music world...   These speakers are easy to drive and usually pretty efficient... you don't need enormous power and current for these guys..... This also means that you don't have to plan the space for another big god only knows how many channels needed amp.

Bottom line... you can't ever go wrong with a great two channel amp that last you a life time.  A 5 channel amp is a bit less flexible given all of the noise over ATMOS or whatever DTS comes up with could be a waste of space and money.
Moreover,  I would presume that JRiver would not be spending a lot of time implementing Atmos in or DTS within MC given the fees etc.

In summary, its complicated and really depends on your priorities.  My preferences are great speakers with room treatments.   great two channel amps,  AV reciever with LR pre amp outs to your two channel system  The AV recivier has all of the consumer friendly features and remaining amp channels for HT and base management.... then MC as my source.... If you want...  set up a second zone in MC  for a two channel dac with digital volume control to your amps

YMMV....