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Author Topic: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1  (Read 11176 times)

lisbethfox

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6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« on: November 24, 2014, 09:30:04 am »

So I have these LOTR BD images, I completely forgot these were mixed in the awful 6.1 format. A bridge to 7.1 which btw is garbage unless you have a truly massive room for that extra pair of floor standers / amps. Anyways, my setup is 5.1 (Well 5.2 but I don't have unique sub outs yet), and I'm stuck with all these 6.1 films. JRiver's auto up / down mixer on leaves me with an empty rear right channel. The only thing I can do is turn off up/down mixing to get sound coming from both rear channels, however I must assume that the rear speaker (of 6.1) is just being discarded. Its not the biggest issue but pans / some effects in the mix are definitely missing that middle part when it 'swoops' around.


I could copy whatever is in that rear channel to the SR and SL speakers using the parametric EQ however I can't for the life of me FIND that rear channel in my channel configuration (I've tried the back 2 channels of 7.1 which I kinda assumed that at least one would be that rear but its not).

Any ideas how to mix that 6.1 rear into my surround speakers?
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mwillems

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 10:13:34 am »

So I have these LOTR BD images, I completely forgot these were mixed in the awful 6.1 format. A bridge to 7.1 which btw is garbage unless you have a truly massive room for that extra pair of floor standers / amps. Anyways, my setup is 5.1 (Well 5.2 but I don't have unique sub outs yet), and I'm stuck with all these 6.1 films. JRiver's auto up / down mixer on leaves me with an empty rear right channel. The only thing I can do is turn off up/down mixing to get sound coming from both rear channels, however I must assume that the rear speaker (of 6.1) is just being discarded. Its not the biggest issue but pans / some effects in the mix are definitely missing that middle part when it 'swoops' around.


I could copy whatever is in that rear channel to the SR and SL speakers using the parametric EQ however I can't for the life of me FIND that rear channel in my channel configuration (I've tried the back 2 channels of 7.1 which I kinda assumed that at least one would be that rear but its not).

Any ideas how to mix that 6.1 rear into my surround speakers?

There's a couple things going on in your post that I'm not sure about, but let me take a stab:

First, what's your channel output setting in output format?  If it's "5.1," then you won't be able to access the rear speaker in PEQ because JRiver is only outputting 6 channels (meaning any channels above that are not accessible in PEQ, even if it looks like they are).  If you want to do manual mixing, you need to choose "source number of channels," "5.1 in a 7.1 channel container," or one of the higher channel count options.  5.1 in a 7.1 container is preferable as it will maintain 5.1 as the JRSS mixing target for other content.   You mentioned bi-amping in another thread, so I didn't want to make assumptions (I also bi-amp, which makes my channel configuration unusual).  But once you've got the channels lined up, you should be able to use PEQ to fix the problem.

Second, you refer to hearing sound from "both rear channels" in a 5.1 setup, which is a little confusing.  To make sure we're not talking past each other: the standard nomenclature (that JRiver also uses) is Surround Left, Surround Right, Rear Left, and Rear Right.  SL and SR are present in 5.1 and 7.1; RL and RR are only present in 7.1 (the single rear from 6.1 is usually on RL).  The reason this is important is that the channel ordering is different in 5.1 and 7.1.  The channel order for 5.1 is L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR.  In 7.1 it's L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR.  That means that if you switch to 7.1 output without reordering the channels, the rear channels will be coming out of the surrounds and vice versa.  

I mention this because the channel reordering could explain why you're only getting sound out of "one side" with the 6.1 content: you may just be hearing the single rear channel coming out of the speaker you normally hear SL out of because the channel ordering is different (and RR is blank, because it's 6.1, so you hear nothing out of the speaker normally playing SR).  You can also try reordering the channels in PEQ and see if that fixes it.

But if you could confirm your channel settings in output format I can offer more specific suggestions.
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ferday

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 10:38:51 am »

"Common" 6.1 can be:

FL, FR, FC, LFE, SL, SR, SC, or FL, FR, FC, LFE, SC, SL, SR

The rear centre (SC) is a matrixed (not real) channel for DTS-es (which LOtR is).  mwillems said it all really, but you might have to play with the channel ordering
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 10:57:17 am »

There's a couple things going on in your post that I'm not sure about, but let me take a stab:

First, what's your channel output setting in output format?  If it's "5.1," then you won't be able to access the rear speaker in PEQ because JRiver is only outputting 6 channels (meaning any channels above that are not accessible in PEQ, even if it looks like they are).  If you want to do manual mixing, you need to choose "source number of channels," "5.1 in a 7.1 channel container," or one of the higher channel count options.  5.1 in a 7.1 container is preferable as it will maintain 5.1 as the JRSS mixing target for other content.   You mentioned bi-amping in another thread, so I didn't want to make assumptions (I also bi-amp, which makes my channel configuration unusual).  But once you've got the channels lined up, you should be able to use PEQ to fix the problem.

Second, you refer to hearing sound from "both rear channels" in a 5.1 setup, which is a little confusing.  To make sure we're not talking past each other: the standard nomenclature (that JRiver also uses) is Surround Left, Surround Right, Rear Left, and Rear Right.  SL and SR are present in 5.1 and 7.1; RL and RR are only present in 7.1 (the single rear from 6.1 is usually on RL).  The reason this is important is that the channel ordering is different in 5.1 and 7.1.  The channel order for 5.1 is L, R, C, LFE, SL, SR.  In 7.1 it's L, R, C, LFE, RL, RR, SL, SR.  That means that if you switch to 7.1 output without reordering the channels, the rear channels will be coming out of the surrounds and vice versa.  

I mention this because the channel reordering could explain why you're only getting sound out of "one side" with the 6.1 content: you may just be hearing the single rear channel coming out of the speaker you normally hear SL out of because the channel ordering is different (and RR is blank, because it's 6.1, so you hear nothing out of the speaker normally playing SR).  You can also try reordering the channels in PEQ and see if that fixes it.

But if you could confirm your channel settings in output format I can offer more specific suggestions.

I am 5.1 in a 7.1 container (obviously, otherwise my biamp setup wouldnt work) Sorry for my confusion on terms lmao. I never know which term for the 7.1 surrounds people use.  In PEQ I currently copy the front channels to RL and RR which gives me the biamping. So any information from those is negated. When watching a 7.1 film I turn on JRSS up / downmixing without any issue and I *do* recieve the channel content from those channels which are otherwise used for biamping.
I've tried every one of the rear channels (in 7.1, where I think the 6.1 content should be in at least one correct?) and there is no information to copy to my surrounds in any of them using this 6.1 mix
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 10:58:30 am »

i only get the sound from one side (surround left), when JRSS is turned on, the channel configuration is 5.1 in a 7.1 container and the source is 6.1.
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 10:59:25 am »

Turning off JRSS but leaving the same settings gets me sound from both sides, however I believe I'm missing the 6.1 part of the 6.1 track.

Does that make any sense?
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mojave

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 11:03:55 am »

Can you give some more information on your setup. What soundcard do you have? Some (all?) Creative cards have a strange channel arrangement with channels higher than 5.1 needing special routing. If not using a soundcard, are you using HDMI to a receiver?

What is your normal Output Format setting? 5.1?
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ferday

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 11:06:49 am »

Turning off JRSS but leaving the same settings gets me sound from both sides, however I believe I'm missing the 6.1 part of the 6.1 track.

Does that make any sense?

that, you most likely aren't.  most (and 100% positive for LotR) 6.1 tracks are DTS-ES, meaning the rear center channel is matrixed (just a summation of SR and SL) with a 3dB drop.  

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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 11:20:48 am »

Can you give some more information on your setup. What soundcard do you have? Some (all?) Creative cards have a strange channel arrangement with channels higher than 5.1 needing special routing. If not using a soundcard, are you using HDMI to a receiver?

What is your normal Output Format setting? 5.1?


Sound cards are gross. I go out to a 7.1 HDMI receiver which just acts as a processor / 8 channel DAC. Long term I'd like a 16 out studio interface and a very high end custom built passive volume control.

Output format is 5.1 in a 7.1 container always
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 11:21:53 am »

that, you most likely aren't.  most (and 100% positive for LotR) 6.1 tracks are DTS-ES, meaning the rear center channel is matrixed (just a summation of SR and SL) with a 3dB drop.  



So it doesnt exist / I shouldn't worry?
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 11:24:34 am »

Also they are DTS-HD-MA 6.1 tracks, the CORE is what is DTS-ES. Are you saying that even in DTS-HD MA the rear center is just a mix of the surrounds and not its own unique track?
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 11:25:54 am »

-
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 11:52:45 am »

LOTR Theatrical BDs are 6.1 Matrixed (even on the DTS-HD stream)
the Extends are confirmed to have a 6.1 discrete mix.
How do I get at that discrete rear center channel and pipe it to my surround speakers?
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mwillems

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 12:13:14 pm »

I have the extended edition LOTR blu rays at home (I don't have a 5.1 system so this hasn't come up for me).  When I get home, I'll see if I can find which channel the information is on (assuming it is actually discrete and not just matrixed).  

But if it exists, it should really be on one of the rear channels; if it's not, I'm not sure where it would (or could) be?

EDIT: I've got a theory that explains everything, but I'll have to test when I get home.  Here's the theory:

The Rear channel is matrixed/non-existent in the source and the channel order in the source is L, R, C, LFE, R, SL, SR.  The problem is that JRiver's downmixing is expecting channel 5 to be SL and channel 6 to be SR, but in the source, channel 5 is blank, and channel 6 is SL.  So my theory is that that's why you hear the blank channel on the downmix, and your SL is actually outputting the SR channel.  Like I said, just a hunch, but I don't know how to explain the blank channel in JRSS any other way.
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 12:16:48 pm »

In 2011, my question was answered. Or at least a reasonable solution proposed. It seems to work. I don't mind

"In the LAV Audio Decoder Properties there is the option to expand 6.1 to 7.1. If you change the DirectShow selection method to "Advanced" and use a manual installation of LAV Filters, you can access this option. I wonder if it sounds better than JRSS. I have LOTR EE Blu-ray and a 7.1 system. I might compare if I have time."

So what happens is LAV decodes the DTS-HD MA, duplicates the 6.1 into the rear 7.1 channels, JRiver takes that, uses JRSS mixing and downmixes to 5.1. I think its working, LAV shows information in both of the rear channels (from 7.1). Haven't bothered to check in JRiver using muting / disabling the downmixing but it does sound much more 'rich'? and pans aren't nearly as abrupt anymore. I think it worked.
 
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 12:19:14 pm »

Time to finish this bottle of whiskey (doesnt help having to sort this stuff out while drunk) and watch Part II of Return Of The King ;)

Thanks for your help guys. I think its sorted now, its a bit of a roundabout but nothing I can complain about (between this and my issue yesterday I have never had an issue with JRiver not solvable within minutes)!
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mwillems

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2014, 12:22:24 pm »

Oh, aces!  Glad you got it fixed; now I know what to do once I finish building my surrounds  ;D
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lisbethfox

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2014, 12:42:59 pm »

Do *not* just check 6.1 - 7.1. I tried with a sample file and it still didnt work to get at that discrete rear channel (No matter what PEQ stuff I played with, maybe I'm just stupid). What did work was going into the mixing pane of LAV Audio and selecting '5.1' as the output format. Obviously I would not recommend this for any occasion other than these BDs (I think theres 2 main ones with real 6.1 audio, LOTR EE and the Star Wars collection, most are just matrixed from my research) and I will be unchecking this option once I finish my film as I would assume JRSS is better for native 7.1 tracks.
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Hendrik

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Re: 6.1 DTS-HD MA - Downmix to 5.1
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 03:55:48 am »

This is a 6.1 DTS-ES discrete test track, with distinct sounds in every channel, so its easy to spot where it gets routed to:
http://files.1f0.de/samples/331.dts

If I play this in MC with JRSS set to 5.1, I get the rear center sound through both side surrounds, or with JRSS on 7.1, through both rear speakers.

The channel setup is the same as the LOTR tracks, as LAV Audio will always swap channels to unify all 6.1 setups to the same common format to avoid problems with the 6.1 channel order as mentioned earlier in this thread.
This setup seems to work perfectly with JRSS for me.
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