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[TopDownDriver]

Ok, let's try this again.

First, yes, I have listened to a variety of FLAC codecs in "double-blind" tests.  There are audible, reproducible differences, even between version of the same codec.

This sounds illogical - but only if you don't think the problem through all the way.  Yes, ALL lossless codecs are indeed LOSSLESS.  This is not the issue.  If you simply use the codec to encode and decode audio and look at the resulting data, they will all give you the same data.  However, data is by far not the only issue in regards to quality of sound.  There is also "jitter".

Jitter is the difference in timing between the samples as they are transmitted to the DAC or digital to analog conversion step (hardware/software).  If one version of the codec is less efficient in its processing and clocking, it can introduce a significant amount of jitter, thus degrading the sound.  Remember audio is "data over time".  Getting the data right is only one step in the process.

Additionally, the load placed on the processor can also increase the noise in the system.  If there is too much noise it needs to be dealt with or it make it harder to determine the signal, and thus jitter can be introduced as well.  While this accounts for a much smaller effect on jitter than the processing, it is measurable.

As for sound-quality between different lossless codecs, yes, double-blind listening studies have been done over multiple people and actual measuring of noise and jitter has been done and accounted for.

Now, with that out of the way, the question.  Since Windows 10 now includes a native FLAC codec, is there any way in JRiver MC 20 to have JRiver use this codec instead of its native codec?  We would like to run these same tests on the Windows 10 codec and see if there is any appreciable difference between the two.  Keeping the rest of the processing environment the same (JRiver) is key to understanding if the differences (if any) are due to the codec itself or some other factors.

Thank You

[JimH]

Jitter is the difference in timing between the samples as they are transmitted to the DAC or digital to analog conversion step (hardware/software).  If one version of the codec is less efficient in its processing and clocking, it can introduce a significant amount of jitter, thus degrading the sound.  Remember audio is "data over time".  Getting the data right is only one step in the process.

Horse feathers.

[Matt]

We did double blind listening tests and found the Windows version inferior to the decoder that's in MC.  So we aren't going to change because it'd ruin the sound.

(sarcasm alert)

[jgreen]

I would be VERY interested in seeing the results of ANY double-blind test wherein listeners can reliably identify a difference in lossless codecs.  Remember, "double blind" means neither the listener nor the tester knows which is which.  

Until such a test and result can be shown (and I'm not holding my breath), I must agree with any rational human being and say the OP has missed the whole point of digitizing media.

[jgreen]

Umm, Matt, I'm not sure your "sarcasm alert" is clear enough--someone is bound to run with your statement.

[TopDownDriver]

I've done the testing.  You can deny the differences all you want.  However, if you are in the Chicago area, I can demonstrate this for you.  

There are several LOSSLESS codecs.  If they all produce the EXACT SAME AUDIO, then why do we need more than one?  
For that matter, why would use any but the one with the greatest compression?  
FLAC certainly is not that one.  
Also, why does FLAC have different settings to affect the amount of compression in the file?  Wouldn't that be irrelevant?

Look, I'm really after only one thing.  I don't care if you believe me or not.

Is there a way to use the native Windows 10 codec in JRiver or not?  That is all.

[jgreen]

Excuse me, "double blind" describes a specific type of test, and it requires several people to conduct.  Are you now "retracting" your previous claim?

[Matt]

Is there a way to use the native Windows 10 codec in JRiver or not?  That is all.

No.  Like I said, it'd ruin the sound so we're not interested.

[jgreen]

Matt, please.

[TopDownDriver]

The test was done with multiple listeners and files which were coded as "A" "B" and "C".  They were played to the various people without the person playing them knowing which is which.  The results were clear.

Now, of course, this is on an extremely high-end system.  

A high-end PC purpose-built for audio.
An MSB high-end DAC.
Audiophile mono amps (pair).
And high end speakers (TAD and Rockport).

This would not be the type of system an average person would have, but that of a dedicated audiophile.

However, not interested in debating.  Can what I am asking be done in JRiver 20?

[jgreen]

You cannot conduct the test, and you cannot use your own equipment, "audiophile" or not.  The mpoint is that the test must be conducted by administrators who have no stake in the outcome of the test, and who do not know the nature of the content.  The test must be given to a group of people who do not know you and do not know the nature of the content.

All you're trying to do is rationalize and excusify some potentially ill-advised expenditures on "audiophile" equipment.  Show your discovery to the Collection Agency, maybe they'll give you more time to pay.

[TopDownDriver]

CAN ANYONE ANSWER MY QUESTION AND STOP DEBATING THE REASON I WANT TO DO IT?!?!?!

I have no agenda!
I don't care what you think or believe to be true!
Has anyone else tried to ever test this?  No!
Your assertions, without testing as well, is just as invalid as you want to assume mine are!

PLEASE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION AND MOVE ON!

Is there a way to use the native Windows 10 codecs in JRiver 20 or not?!?!?

(I do not want to debate the validity or not of the entire audiophile industry with people who have already made up their minds.  I do not need "snarky" answers and sarcasm.  I came to this forum hoping for a professional demeanor and an answer to a simple question about the product.  That is all!)

[JimH]

Matt DID ANSWER

No.  Like I said, it'd ruin the sound so we're not interested.

[TopDownDriver]

That is not an answer.

(He also labeled it as sarcasm)

I just want to know if it is possible to configure JRiver 20 this way.

Shall I just assume the answer is "no" and that no third-party codecs can be used?

[BryanC]

...also. You somehow have it in your head that decoded audio feeds directly into the DAC without any sort of buffering or error-checking involved. And then you assume that the DAC itself has no type of buffer or error-checking. You are creating a dilemma out of false assumptions.

[jgreen]

You've done a lot more than ask a simple question.  Your original post makes ridiculous claims without substantiation, even though you claim there are "several studies" to support you.  Where are these studies?

There are no such studies, and your claim is laughable.  This why normally patient people are laughing at you, so that honest people who read your carp can see it in its proper context.

[6233638]

There are several LOSSLESS codecs.  If they all produce the EXACT SAME AUDIO, then why do we need more than one?

Because different hardware supports different formats, and once upon a time they were competing against one another for which would save you the most amount of disk space, or which would be the fastest to encode/decode on a slow PC etc.
Most of the reasons for different lossless formats existing no longer matter. Most people don't care about shaving off an extra 5-10MB any more, or what the CPU requirements are.

Generally, FLAC is considered to be the standard - and for good reason. It offers great compression levels with fast encoding/decoding, and good file robustness.
The only reason to use anything else really is if you want to transfer the files to an Apple device, in which case you would use ALAC.

Also, why does FLAC have different settings to affect the amount of compression in the file?  Wouldn't that be irrelevant?

The compression levels available for FLAC affect the amount of CPU usage required to encode or decode the file, and the final output size.
They have zero impact on the quality of playback.

Some hardware is only capable of playing back FLAC files at certain compression levels (I think the Squeezebox hardware maxes out at FLAC level 5 for high res) but it is trivial for a computer at any compression level.

Is there a way to use the native Windows 10 codec in JRiver or not?

There is not, and there probably never will be.

[TopDownDriver]

Please, and I don't get this way very often, just back off!

Again, I am making no claims that I care if you agree with or not.  Why does everyone on the internet want to start an argument.  If you disagree with me, then so be it.  I don't care!

I was just trying to explain why I want to be able to do this.  I do not know you and you do not know me.  Insults just show ignorance.  If you knew my background (which I am not going to share here) you would think twice.

However, Bryan - thanks for answering my question.  It is appreciated.  So, I assume that setting JRiver to DirectShow filter will indeed use the standard Windows 10 codec.

Thank You.

[Now will some smart admin please close this thread ;-)]

[skifastbadly]

Reminiscent of the "natural vs. synthetic" oil arguments on the motorcycle forums I frequent.

[Dr Tone]

Some hardware is only capable of playing back FLAC files at certain compression levels (I think the Squeezebox hardware maxes out at FLAC level 5 for high res) but it is trivial for a computer at any compression level.

No Squeezebox was fine with all compression levels.

[Zero_G]

I thought this died in the other thread but it appears to be a zombie apocalypse flac thread.   

[ferday]

That is not an answer.

(He also labeled it as sarcasm)

I just want to know if it is possible to configure JRiver 20 this way.

Shall I just assume the answer is "no" and that no third-party codecs can be used?

the answer is no, you can't use third party codecs in MC

if you want to A/B the different codecs, you can convert one in MC, and others with other software (windows currently will play FLAC but not rip to FLAC), then use your favorite ABX software (i use foobar) or play the tracks in MC and make your choice from there

[TopDownDriver]

If DirectShow won't work, there is always the option of having JRiver use another program, such as Media Player, to play the file.  No?

[ferday]

i assume so...i use third party stuff all the time for documents and the like, but have never tried with a music program so it's an assumption

go to tools>options>file types.  in the Audio menu, pick your file type (FLAC) and choose the playback method to your program of choice

[glynor]

Didn't I already lock this thread?