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[csimon]

Using a third button (or a gesture) to switch to it adds an additional layer of complexity that I'm not sure is necessary.
It takes less than three seconds to get to the roller from the bottom of my largest grid view, just by holding the up arrow. For how infrequently it is accessed, that's fine.

The problem is when you find you need to access it and get frustrated by the convoluted way of getting to it.  With a press of a Menu button it would be extgremnely simple,noit complex, and  instant, not 3 seconds, and not losing your place after you've scrolled up several pages first.

If you're switching Zones via the roller, I'd urge you to set up Zone Switch.

Zone Switch doesn't work because it has no idea what settings I want to use for playing a particular file with. There's no way of setting up Zone Switch rules that know what I'm thinking.

Then again, I've never used Theater View to start anything but local playback.
Remote playback has either been managed via a phone for me, since that lets me be in the same room.

Zone switching remotely doesn't work properly either.. that's the subject of another usability issue request.

If you need to switch to Playing Now a lot, I'd have a button dedicated to it.

This was only an example that I quoted when I was asked to provide examples of usability issues. It's something I came to do at that precise time and found it was extremely awkward to do. I'm not doing it a lot actually because I've abandoned Theater View for everything as it's just too awkward.  I've been trying to push for it to become more touch friendly, seeing as the keyboard and remote control use cases are obviously not going to be addressed.

If you're suggesting setting a button for access to Playing Now in particular, presumbaly you'd need one for practically every other function that you might need access to and is awkward to get to within a couple of key presses.  You'd run out of buttons. Why not just have a button dedicated to switching between the menu and the browse area, which would make the whole thing more streamlined.

[glynor]

Same here, which is why not having left wrap is annoying, you cant go back when you overshoot your target.

I couldn't get it do do it at all.  I'll test again a bit later, but I did test it (because it surprised me, as I thought I remembered wrapping working on that side).

[BartMan01]

I couldn't get it do do it at all.  I'll test again a bit later, but I did test it (because it surprised me, as I thought I remembered wrapping working on that side).

I just tried it to make sure I wasn't insane - it wraps around from the right to the left on all of my Grid View screens still on .66.

[glynor]

I just tried it to make sure I wasn't insane - it wraps around from the right to the left on all of my Grid View screens still on .66.

You're right.

It is working for me now, so that aspect of what I wrote above is wrong, and it is back to what I remembered to be correct.  I wonder why I couldn't get it to wrap last time I tested though?

[6233638]

The problem is when you find you need to access it and get frustrated by the convoluted way of getting to it.

"Hold up to get to the top of the screen" is hardly a convoluted way of getting to it.
Yes, it may take as many as three seconds to get there, but it's hardly difficult or confusing.

I don't think it's great design to add another command that requires another button just to switch between the roller and the grid.


While I don't like adding more and more options to be configured, I think the better solution—rather than adding a new button—would be an option to have "back" take you to the primary roller if you are in the middle of a list.
And subsequent presses of back should just step you up in the tree until you start browsing again, rather than taking you to the roller each time.

In addition, I think that this behavior should always happen with the secondary roller when you have wrap-around enabled for grid views, and if a view contains a secondary roller, that should be the default selection. Not the first item in the view.
The secondary roller is a navigation item, and should be treated as such.

[Hendrik]

So, I've been thinking about what changes to do..

First, I would add an option to enable left-wrapping to the previous row in Grid views, like discussed before. I think this is straight forward, and being an option presents no change in functionality unless one explicitly opts-in into the change.

A second change I've been thinking about would be adding the stop-before-wrap (as encountered on the bottom) on the other borders in Grid view. If you just hold the right key, you would stop at the right screen border, but if you slowly press right multiple times, it advances to the next row.
Thoughts on this? It would be default behaviour without an option, but I don't think it would block any intentional use-cases, or does someone use Right-Arrow to navigate down multiple rows at a time in grid view (by holding the key, no less)? seems unlikely to me, when you could just use down arrow instead.

[glynor]

I think that would work, and I agree about the right-edge wraparound.

You may also want to consider adding a matching "catch" on the Left edge too.  There might be some grumbles here, but it would make the behavior more consistent (especially if you add the catch to the right edge too), and I think it might also prevent more future grumbles.

In fact, if you want, I think you could do it where "standard style" disables right-edge wrap around entirely.  In this case:

* Regular mode: is like it is now, but right-edge wrapping is gone.
* Options > Theater View > Behavior > Wrap around at edges of grid-style Views: turns on left and right edge wrapping.  You could even enable top-edge wrapping once you get up past the Home position of the top roller (so if you just keep going up, it wraps that way too).

Lastly, for people who use this and want to program a remote button, it would be useful to have a MCC command that does the same thing (from any position) as the current Left-edge jump (jump to the home position of the Top Roller).  Nice thing there is it could remember not just the Row or Column of the previous position, but it could remember the actual selection prior to the jump navigation.

[Castius]

Sounds reasonable compromise to me Hendrik.

However as a complete salution I'd prefer left/right scroll. Then catch at the beginning/end.
Before going to the navigation. This would unify all the views.
Then have back take you to the navigation.

Then the option is just the previus behavior.
Go up when you hit the left side.  Default to on for compatibility.

[6233638]

A second change I've been thinking about would be adding the stop-before-wrap (as encountered on the bottom) on the other borders in Grid view. If you just hold the right key, you would stop at the right screen border, but if you slowly press right multiple times, it advances to the next row.
Thoughts on this? It would be default behaviour without an option, but I don't think it would block any intentional use-cases, or does someone use Right-Arrow to navigate down multiple rows at a time in grid view (by holding the key, no less)? seems unlikely to me, when you could just use down arrow instead.

I hold the right key to scroll through a list at a reasonable rate if I'm just browsing.
Scrolling by holding down: 550 items traversed in 3 seconds - too fast to read individual items
Scrolling by holding right: 550 items traversed in 16 seconds - a little faster than I'd like, but perfectly legible as it scrolls
 
And the latter is where not being able to wrap around on the left really stands out as being an issue for me, since I can't then go backwards through the list the same way to select an item that I've passed.
Stopping at the ends of the list as MC currently does is absolutely fine though, since you can then hit the arrow one more time to wrap around.
It shouldn't stop at the end of a line.


I know that this is the "easy" solution, since it's repurposing functionality that already exists, but I'd ask that you consider the changes I suggested above even though it's a more complex solution.
It does not add any new buttons to be mapped to a remote (to toggle between the rollers/list) and as far as I can see, covers all use-cases.
Yes, it does add another preference, but that seems unavoidable.
I can't see a better solution for getting to the rollers from the middle of a big list if you have wrap-around enabled, but I think it should be a preference because it would slow down navigation and add a slight inconsistency. (back doing more than always taking you up a level)

You may also want to consider adding a matching "catch" on the Left edge too.

Do you mean when wrap-around is enabled, or disabled?
Because I thought if you used left-for-back, it was by design that you could just hold down left to go back a few levels at once, rather than having to keep tapping left.

You could even enable top-edge wrapping once you get up past the Home position of the top roller (so if you just keep going up, it wraps that way too).

It already wraps around on the top. (and the bottom)

[Hendrik]

It already wraps around on the top. (and the bottom)

It doesn't here, it just goes to the roller and sits there.

[6233638]

It doesn't here, it just goes to the roller and sits there.

There's a slight lag where you have to wait for the animation to finish.
It stops if you're holding up, but if you hit up again it will wrap around to the bottom of the grid.
 
Edit: actually, if you hit up while the animation is happening, and continue to tap "up" it will still stick there. You have to wait a second before you can hit up again and have it wrap around.
It's good that it stops at the roller when you're holding up, but it would be nice if that could be fixed.

[Hendrik]

For now, I went with only the new behavior option to disable the left-edge jump. I'll continue listening for good ideas, but making everyone happy is as always going to be impossible. Some people really like how it works now, some would rather have something entirely different and new..

If we see clear-cut improvements, its no question that we're interested, but we always have to be careful with changing the basic behavior of MC.

[Castius]

Do you have any opinions to share about my last suggestion?

Thank you for taking the time to go through this with us.

[6233638]

For now, I went with only the new behavior option to disable the left-edge jump. I'll continue listening for good ideas, but making everyone happy is as always going to be impossible. Some people really like how it works now, some would rather have something entirely different and new..
If we see clear-cut improvements, its no question that we're interested, but we always have to be careful with changing the basic behavior of MC.

That's fair. I do think that without left taking you back to the roller, it will be an unexpected issue for some people though.
 
And I do think that my previously suggested changes to "back" behavior would address this - but it's understandably a bit of work rather than a quick change, and a tough decision between picking a default behavior that may not suit everyone, vs adding another preference. (and what I think would best suit the default behavior, would not be my personal preference)

[rammingspeed]

For now, I went with only the new behavior option to disable the left-edge jump. I'll continue listening for good ideas, but making everyone happy is as always going to be impossible. Some people really like how it works now, some would rather have something entirely different and new..

If we see clear-cut improvements, its no question that we're interested, but we always have to be careful with changing the basic behavior of MC.

I don't want to come off negative, but removing the left-edge jump function alone without adding a single keypress function to jump up the to roller bar menu won't really help.  Even though I don't like left-edge jump, I use it because when I am half way down a long grid listing like the EPG, it is a quick way back to the menu as opposed to scrolling all the way down or all the way up. (or having to use 2 keystrokes - home and up arrow). 

I will repeat a note from my previous post regarding using a remote control --> the "Menu" button on the remote should be able to jump directly to the roller bar menu.  If there is a key combination I missed that does this, PLEASE let me know.   

[dean70]

The UI on my LG SmartTV requires the Green button on the remote to jump to the top menu "roller". The arrow keys only scroll around the items in the list/grid FWITW.

[MrHaugen]

I don't have an big opinion on the current behavior or the one people talk about here. However, I do understand completely that some people find this frustrating. Left function is NOT a standard, to put it mildly. Usually you have to scroll up the list to get to any controls on the top. I think that quite a few would be more comfortable with this. And the right click to skip to the next line, I can understand IF the left brought you back UP to the previous line. That would make it easy to correct mistakes.

I understand the hesitance to add more options. But, hey. This is the most configurable and adaptable MC in history. Why is it a big deal to have a single option buried down somewhere? I don't see how this would break anything. I would rather have the ability to control such things in the skin it self, but I think we'll have to wait while for that.

My suggestion is one single option to toggle between:
"Left brings you to roller and right skips to next row" vs
"Left bring you to the above row and right brings you to the next row"

[csimon]

I don't want to come off negative, but removing the left-edge jump function alone without adding a single keypress function to jump up the to roller bar menu won't really help.  Even though I don't like left-edge jump, I use it because when I am half way down a long grid listing like the EPG, it is a quick way back to the menu as opposed to scrolling all the way down or all the way up. (or having to use 2 keystrokes - home and up arrow). 

I will repeat a note from my previous post regarding using a remote control --> the "Menu" button on the remote should be able to jump directly to the roller bar menu.  If there is a key combination I missed that does this, PLEASE let me know.   

+1

[Hendrik]

I don't want to come off negative, but removing the left-edge jump function alone without adding a single keypress function to jump up the to roller bar menu won't really help.  Even though I don't like left-edge jump, I use it because when I am half way down a long grid listing like the EPG, it is a quick way back to the menu as opposed to scrolling all the way down or all the way up. (or having to use 2 keystrokes - home and up arrow).

Its an option, you are free to not enable it if it doesn't fit your workflow. We didn't change any existing functionality.

The problem with the menu key is that it already has a function that its supposed to do, it shows a context menu on the currently selected element with various play options ... but for some reason that part is broken for me, and all mine does is enter a "m" key .. very odd.
But I don't have a official MCE remote but a harmony, so maybe my key is mapped wrong. Will need to check on that.

[6233638]

We didn't change any existing functionality.

For what it's worth, I agree with Glynor that it shouldn't wrap around on the right any more if we now have an option that enables/disables wrap in the grid views.

The problem with the menu key is that it already has a function that its supposed to do, it shows a context menu on the currently selected element with various play options ... but for some reason that part is broken for me, and all mine does is enter a "m" key .. very odd.

Yes, that's why I think new handling for the "back" button would be the neatest solution.

[rammingspeed]

The problem with the menu key is that it already has a function that its supposed to do, it shows a context menu on the currently selected element with various play options ... but for some reason that part is broken for me, and all mine does is enter a "m" key .. very odd.
But I don't have a official MCE remote but a harmony, so maybe my key is mapped wrong. Will need to check on that.

I don't use a stock MCE remote either, so I've not seen the function you describe.  I use a universal remote and EventGhost to program the functions I want.  This is all a long way of saying the "jump to roller menu" function doesn't have to be the menu button, BUT if there were a key combination available that performed that function....

[CountryBumkin]

I tell you what.  My Logitech Smart Control is really pretty close.  It isn't perfect, by any means (too many small, identically sized buttons, and I wish the whole number set wasn't even there for my use)... But, it is pretty good:



Might want to check it out.  The Logitech software is pretty annoying, but it works, and once you set it up, the remote itself is very reliable.  To use it well with a HTPC, you'll be best served using it alongside EventGhost or Girder or something similar, but once you do that, it is quite solid.

I like how you can use it as a direct replacement for the AppleTV remote with a built in "setup" for that device too, if you have one of those on your system.

Also, worth noting that with Girder or EventGhost and a USB-receiver like a USB-UIRT, you can use ANY IR remote you want to control your PC.  IR is a deal-breaker for me, but if you want one of those, you could buy one and use it.

I use the harmony remote pictured above (and prefer it to the FireTV remote) - but for your use, perhaps this remote would be better.

[6233638]

If that can be paired with a PC and the buttons remapped as desired, that looks like it would make an awesome Bluetooth HTPC remote.

[glynor]

The problem with the menu key is that it already has a function that its supposed to do, it shows a context menu on the currently selected element with various play options

A MCC command would allow users to map this if they prefer it.

[6233638]

When you hit the first item, it's still sending a back command if you're holding left, rather than wrapping to the bottom of the list.
 
For lack of a better term, it seems like the repeat rate has been increased with the latest update as well, because it's immediately shooting back to the first screen for me when this happens.
Previously it seemed to pause for a second on each level as it stepped backwards.
 
I actually wonder if it should completely stop, or pause for a couple of seconds when doing this?
I don't want to have left act as "back" at all, so perhaps someone that actually uses it could comment on that?

[glynor]

Mine has always gone "rapid fire style" if you hold the button down.

[6233638]

Mine has always gone "rapid fire style" if you hold the button down.

Strange. Perhaps it was just running slow when I tested it before for some reason.
 
It seems like it would be beneficial to pause for a second or stop when it jumps back a level?
Not that it should affect things for me if the wrap-around option is fixed to either stop, or wrap to the bottom of the list rather than start issuing a back command when you get to the top.

[glynor]

It seems like it would be beneficial to pause for a second or stop when it jumps back a level?

Yeah.  I said above that I think it should have a catch, just like the right-edge and bottom-edge wrapping already do:

What you'd seem to actually want is an identical "catch" at the left edge of a Grid-style View's list.  So that you don't accidentally rapid-fire through to the Top Roller, but where it must be an explicit command.

This "catch" at the left edge, if applied only to Grid-style views (where you would ever need to navigate a list with LEFT/RIGHT at all), would be reasonable and wouldn't require an Option at all, in my opinion.  I think you could just "do it".

It wouldn't bother me at all if this was added as "just the way it is" for Grid-Style Views.

That alone might make it feel less confusing, and not require an option. Or it could be done and provide an option to allow Grid-style views to wrap at the left and right edges.

This is, obviously, only required and beneficial on Grid-Style views, and I would complain about it on other view styles.  But, for Grid Style views, you might have another "reason" to hold down the Left Arrow, other than to navigate back several "levels".

[BartMan01]

I don't want to come off negative, but removing the left-edge jump function alone without adding a single keypress function to jump up the to roller bar menu won't really help.  Even though I don't like left-edge jump, I use it because when I am half way down a long grid listing like the EPG, it is a quick way back to the menu as opposed to scrolling all the way down or all the way up. (or having to use 2 keystrokes - home and up arrow).  

After using the new functionality, the switch to disable left edge jump should also make the back button jump to the roller instead of the menu when in the grid.

In the meantime, to get back to the roller it seems like 'back' + 'enter' will do the trick.  Still not ideal, but overall less overall key presses day to day than not having wrap around.

[6233638]

After using the new functionality, the switch to disable left edge jump should also make the back button jump to the roller instead of the menu when in the grid.

I agree—though I would like it to be optional (but enabled by default) and I think it is important that it does not happen on subsequent presses of the back button as you try to get back to the main Theater View menu for example.
 
It should always jump to the secondary roller of one exists, however.

In the meantime, to get back to the roller it seems like 'back' + 'enter' will do the trick.  Still not ideal, but overall less overall key presses day to day than not having wrap around.

While that works, it's a quirk that exists due to a larger problem with Theater View—that it loses your position in a list when you step up a level, and starts you at the top of a list again when you return.
 
I suppose that would also have to be a preference, as I'm sure there must be some people using this quirk as a navigation tool.

[rammingspeed]

I downloaded the new build and tested the "left arrow jump to roller menu" function.  It appears I have a fundamental misunderstanding of "GRID" view as the place I wanted to see this feature most was in the EPG screen.  The program guide seems to be handled differently as the new function did not work in this screen.

[Castius]

I could see how you could make that assumption. And i also agree with you.

[raym]

Mine has always gone "rapid fire style" if you hold the button down.

Yeah.  I said above that I think it should have a catch, just like the right-edge and bottom-edge wrapping already do:

I've said this for a while and completely agree. For example, we use the on screen keyboard quite bit with a remote. Handy when searching for something quick etc. It would be nice if you could press and hold the arrow keys to get the cursor to the edges of the keyboard without continuing forever. It would help for faster navigation. Then, releasing the arrow key and pressing it again would continue on as normal.

In the olden days, MC used to honor this behavior in most places: roller menus and most views. I wish we could get it back.

[flac.rules]

A MCC command would allow users to map this if they prefer it.

How do you do that with a keyboard? Can i map an MCC-command to a keystroke?