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[Castius]

I know you don't like the idea of adding to many options here.
However, I would like to propose an option to change the way you navigate in theater view.

I'd like the option to prevent left and up from exiting the list of items you are moving through.
So if you are hitting left or up they will never enter the navigation menus or go back.
I'd rather hit the back button. If I wish to navigate outside of the list of items.

Here is my main problem. When you are navigating any of the list style.
To many of them take you to the navigation menus. So using up and left becomes to destructive to you're navigation.
For Example:
Hit the left side of a list will take you to the navigation bar. Hitting right now moves you along the navigation bar.
Instead you need to know to hit down twice to get back. That is to unconventional. IMO.

When you hold down the up or left buttons. They should stop at the left or top of the list they are in.
Not take you back or into the navigation bar.

But if i could turn that behavior off i would love it.

Thanks
Scott

[BartMan01]

Agreed.  After Jim's explanation, I understand their design decision here - I just don't like it.  If I spent my entire day just in MC I would probably get used to this unique way of approaching navigation, but since I spend as much or more time in other UI's (AppleTV and WMC) the existing functionality of the left arrow taking you to the top constantly trips me (and other members of my family) up.  I have a muscle memory from all of the other UI's I interact with that if I shoot too far to the right that just clicking left again will get me back, or if I am on the left side of the screen and need to get to the far right that left will take me there.

It is not a bad design, and it does have merits, it is just too different from the way every other UI I interact with works for me to get used to it - even after years of use.

[6233638]

I agree, it would be nice to have an option that disables this behavior.
It really doesn't make sense when you're using a remote/controller that includes a back button.

[csimon]

Best of luck getting this changed. I pointed it out in 2013 when asked for specific examples of usability issues in Theater View. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84749.msg578755#msg578755

[Hendrik]

I don't think anyone is really opposed to adding an option to switch behavior, just the default is unlikely to change because it would enrage the natives.

I personally don't like the Left-Arrow going to the roller myself, as it makes navigation a bit annoying when you have a long list of movies in grid view, and you try to get to the right most column fast (and overshoot your goal, end up on the next line, grr!)
Using the Up key, it'll first scroll all the way up the list, and only then enter the menu, which I find sensible, because that's how I usually use the roller menu, from the top of my head I couldn't even tell you how to get there otherwise.

But of course everyones usage differs.

[glynor]

Using the Up key, it'll first scroll all the way up the list, and only then enter the menu, which I find sensible, because that's how I usually use the roller menu, from the top of my head I couldn't even tell you how to get there otherwise.

But of course everyones usage differs.

For me, I have no views set in Thumbnails (grid-style) when the list is longer than 1-3 "screenfulls".  For anything longer, I always use either List-style or Lineup-style.  With those style views, using the Left to go back is very intuitive.  So, I've taught people (my wife, friends, trying to teach my daughter) that the left arrow always gets you "back".

That makes a simple rule: Left goes back, right goes forward.

Without this, how can you jump up to the menu without scrolling up through possibly 10 or 20 pages of items?  Since jumping to the roller menu is needed to go "back" (or using a dedicated button) then this is pretty essential, to me.

But, I certainly agree with Hendrik that I'm not opposed to an option here.  If you use Grid-style views a lot, I can see how it would be a bit confusing.  When it was originally designed, I asked for the arrow-off-the-right-side to NOT wrap around either, which would make it feel like it makes more sense, but practicality won on that argument.

[6233638]

For me, I have no views set in Thumbnails (grid-style) when the list is longer than 1-3 "screenfulls".  For anything longer, I always use either List-style or Lineup-style.  With those style views, using the Left to go back is very intuitive.  So, I've taught people (my wife, friends, trying to teach my daughter) that the left arrow always gets you "back".

That's the opposite for me - all of my views are grid views.
But I see what you mean; left makes a lot more sense when you are presented with a list.

Without this, how can you jump up to the menu without scrolling up through possibly 10 or 20 pages of items?  Since jumping to the roller menu is needed to go "back" (or using a dedicated button) then this is pretty essential, to me.

With the way that my views are set up, I rarely need access to the rollers at all.
 
What I would suggest - and again, this would have to be optional - would be that pressing "back" on the remote takes you to the roller if you're in the middle of a list, or takes you up a level if you're already on the roller.

But I'd want that to be optional because I so seldom need access to the roller, and would rather that "back" took me up a level. (as it currently does)
With the way that my views are laid out, having to press back twice would get tedious very quickly.
 
For example: Music → A–Z → Artist → Album → Channels → Description → Tracklist
 
Which sounds like a lot, but has actually proven to be the fastest way for me to navigate my library, since Theater View skips unnecessary categories. (though I wish you could force some categories to always be displayed)
 
Perhaps what makes our style of navigation different is that I use a controller, while you use a remote.
 

But, I certainly agree with Hendrik that I'm not opposed to an option here.  If you use Grid-style views a lot, I can see how it would be a bit confusing.  When it was originally designed, I asked for the arrow-off-the-right-side to NOT wrap around either, which would make it feel like it makes more sense, but practicality won on that argument.

Actually, I think you're right.
Not that I would prefer it, but I can see that if you had no horizontal wrap-around at all, instead of only wrapping on the right, that it would make more sense.

[Boltron]

To me this is behavior is totally un-intuitive and I really don't like it. I for one strictly use theater view and even after two years I cannot get used to it. Actually, every time I have a guest over and they drive they also get frustrated and ask why it does this, it's simply just not intuitive at all.

[JimH]

I'd like the option to prevent left and up from exiting the list of items you are moving through.
So if you are hitting left or up they will never enter the navigation menus or go back.
I'd rather hit the back button. If I wish to navigate outside of the list of items.

This was discussed in another thread this week.

If you mistakenly leave the list by hitting a Left Arrow, you can return to your place by hitting the Down Arrow twice.

I use Channel Up and Channel Down to navigate a lot.  They give you a page up and page down.

The current system doesn't require a back button.  Left always takes you back.

[Boltron]

With all due respect...

"If you mistakenly leave the list by hitting a Left Arrow, you can return to your place by hitting the Down Arrow twice"

Like I said, this is totally un-intuitive for navigating a grid using arrows on a remote.

Just sharing my opinion and don't want to make a big deal of it. A simple option for preference would be awesome.

[JimH]

Every option makes the configuration more complex, so we don't do it unless there is a compelling reason.

Small changes sometimes bring unexpected consequences.  Theater View and its navigation took a long time to perfect so I'm very reluctant to change anything here.

[6233638]

Media Center is the only software I am aware of which handles navigation like this for a grid of icons.
I agree that it makes sense for a list, but not for the grid view.
 
It is unintuitive because nothing else behaves this way.

[Hendrik]

That makes a simple rule: Left goes back, right goes forward.

Well, except when in a Grid view. Right goes to the next item, Left sometimes goes back to the previous item, and sometimes it doesn't (and that case is the unintuitive one, because it depends on your position in the grid)
You just expect Left to do the opposite of Right when navigating such a grid of icons, and consistently at that.

I just happen to use Grid-views for nearly everything, since I like them the most for displaying Movies and TV Shows, which is all I use Theater View for.

I agree that the missing link then would be an easy way to get to the roller menu. MCE remotes have a "Menu" button, do they not? What does that do in Theater View? I should check.
I wouldn't need that to go back, as I have a back key, but sometimes you want to access any of the other options in there.

Jim, while I agree with your sentiment that there is such a thing as "too many" options, I think there is enough here to possibly warrant a simple option to change the Left-Arrow behavior on Grid Views (and only on Grid Views).
Its not a complex option and mostly documents itself, and it is a recurring request for years now.... plus this behavior annoys me personally!

[csimon]

There is reluctance to change this behaviour because it would mean finding another way of navigating to the top menu. Most interfaces would use some sort of menu button rather than doubling up on the usage of one of the cursor keys, which obviously replaces one of the accepted functions of that key.

Therefore what is seemingly a simple change involves revamping something and has a knock-on effect on other areas. It has already been stated that a revamp of the navigation is not going to happen, as it's seemingly perfect as it is. In my opinion, the whole thing needs to be scrapped and started again.

However, as part of the 2013 thread I linked to above, I did suggest a way in which the roller concept could be replaced by a pop up menu system, like you get in most devices, PVRs etc, where you have a main window where you are browsing then pop up a hierarchical menu ( like a right-click menu ) when you want to change the view or pick an option, or do something other than browsing and selecting items to play. This would simply take the roller definitions and re-visualise and render them in a way that is more usable and intuitive.http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84749.msg578727;topicseen#msg578727

By having a nice pop up overlaid menu, it might also refresh slightly the rather retro and plain look of THeater View and its rollers. Have you seen Elgato's EYe TV software, PVR and TV guide interface? Been at a friend's house this weekend who has one on his Mac, it's embarrassing to then show him MC's Theater View.

[6233638]

In all honesty, is it a big deal if you're halfway down a big list of items and have to wait to get to the roller?
With a grid of icons ~80 rows tall (the largest of my views) it took about three seconds to scroll from the very bottom to the top of the list.
And really, you only ever have to scroll half that distance at most, since it will wrap around once you reach the bottom.
 
I'm still not entirely sure where you're going to be 80 rows deep into a list of items and suddenly need access to the roller though?
We are talking about the same thing, aren't we? (see attached image)
 
If I wanted to "Play All" I'd select that from the top of the list, not halfway down.

[glynor]

Every option makes the configuration more complex, so we don't do it unless there is a compelling reason.

Agree.

Small changes sometimes bring unexpected consequences.

Agree.  The recent negative number sorting change is a perfect example.

In all honesty, is it a big deal if you're halfway down a big list of items and have to wait to get to the roller?
With a grid of icons ~80 rows tall (the largest of my views) it took about three seconds to scroll from the very bottom to the top of the list.

To me, it is, because the "destination" is off screen.  No hidden UI ever.  Period.

That's the biggest problem for me with Windows 8's system, and a big part of what I don't like about older versions of Android (stock Android has largely fixed this now, when they finally got rid of the confusing and inconsistent hardware back button).

Left sometimes goes back to the previous item, and sometimes it doesn't (and that case is the unintuitive one, because it depends on your position in the grid)

That's true, of course.  But I haven't actually seen it confuse too many real unexperienced users.  I just tell people that going Left will always eventually get you back (off the left edge).  What I love about the system is that I can give the remote to someone who has never seen it before, and tell them only these things:

* Left, Right, Up, Down, and Enter do essentially everything.
* To go back a level, go left off the left edge (just keep going left and it'll take you back).
* The Guide button (my "Green" button) will get you back home.

The end.  No other buttons to learn at all, if you don't want to, to just get started.

I've done this with probably 50-60 people, and I've never seen anyone get confused for more than a few minutes.  But, as I said, I make very conservative use of Grid Views.  I don't like Grid Views, generally, in essentially any UI, unless the "selection set" is very limited.  For anything larger than a screenful or two, I prefer a "Column Browser".  I also feel that, since it effectively matches the look and feel (and conceptualization) of an iPod, iPhone, and many other similar applications with Column Browsers, that it is much more intuitive to a greater audience.

That's what I like about Lineup View Style for "Category Levels".  It is still graphical, but matches this expected behavior.

Jim, while I agree with your sentiment that there is such a thing as "too many" options, I think there is enough here to possibly warrant a simple option to change the Left-Arrow behavior on Grid Views (and only on Grid Views).

All that said... Here I agree with Hendrik.

I can see it from the other point of view.  If you make heavy use of Grid View Styles, I think you're a lunatic and if you tried my way you'd agree it is superior in most instances, but...  I can see how this could grate on you.  There are enough reasonable people on both sides of the argument that I think this reaches the level of "a compelling reason", in this case.  It cannot be the default, because it essentially requires an additional button to be useful (you need a dedicated Back button then), but I think it is worthy of a non-default option.

For wording the option, I think there are two possibilities here:

* Tools > Options > Theater View > Behavior > Grid View Styles wrap around at left edge (Defaults OFF)
-OR-
* Tools > Options > Theater View > Behavior > Left edge jumps to top in Grid View Styles (Defaults ON)

I think the first option is more clear.  The second option, however, explains the behavior of the default setting better, so I think is a superior choice.  You could try to combine the two, but I think it'd be too wordy for the options panel.

If you want, after you make the change, I'll happily make two screen recordings and post them to the Wiki, with a brief navigation explanation page, and you can link to it from a Question Mark help icon.

[6233638]

To me, it is, because the "destination" is off screen.  No hidden UI ever.  Period.

I feel like we're talking about different things.

I thought we were just talking about having the ability to wrap around on both sides of a grid view.
That doesn't change what is or is not on the screen. If anything "hold left" is a hidden behavior.

* Left, Right, Up, Down, and Enter do essentially everything.
* To go back a level, go left off the left edge (just keep going left and it'll take you back).
* The Guide button (my "Green" button) will get you back home.
The end.  No other buttons to learn at all, if you don't want to, to just get started.

Up/down/left/right
Forward/back

I count one less thing to learn, and more standardized behaviors.
And perhaps it's showing my age, but people are a lot happier if I hand them this than an unfamiliar remote.
They immediately know how the interface works - until they try to navigate a grid view and it suddenly jumps to the roller or back a level when they hit left.

[glynor]

As I said above, I agree an option is warranted here.

But, I think it is worth discussing, just because trying different things and looking at it differently can help make our systems better (both sides of the discussion).  It is an interesting discussion.  And, in previous iterations of this discussion, I've learned things.  I never, ever, ever used Grid Views at all before, but I added a few tightly controlled ones a year or two ago after a previous iteration of this discussion, and now I really like those where they're used.

So...

And perhaps it's showing my age, but people are a lot happier if I hand them this than an unfamiliar remote.

I think you're showing your age as younger, yes.  

Any controller like that with all those buttons is a non-starter.  Can't give that to my mom, for sure.  Precisely because you had to blur out all kinds of stuff to make your point.  I really prefer my remotes as small and with as few buttons as is possible (the Apple remote would be good if it wasn't so small, had better buttons, and wasn't IR).  Not "only a few relevant buttons" but actually fewer buttons.  But I'm one of those Apple Guys.  

Yes, if I handed that to my buddy Steve who grew up playing video games, that would be fine.  But people at the office and my mom would hate it.

For what it is worth, so you know where I'm coming from:  I have a pretty wide experience showing novices the interface.  We use MC in Theater View to run all of our "virtual tour" content at work.  I have MC installed and set up with my "public Office Library" on a few different screens around the Lab.  There's something like 30-50 people at the office that I've trained on it.  It is a heck of a lot easier to explain than almost all other "ten foot" UIs I have to explain (like our videoconferencing systems and other conference room gear).

These are people of widely different ages and technical backgrounds (from physicists and computational scientists, to IT people, to execs, to administrative assistants).

That doesn't change what is or is not on the screen. If anything "hold left" is a hidden behavior.
Up/down/left/right
Forward/back

I didn't mean it that way.  What I meant is: the destination is on-screen.  The left edge is always on screen, and there is never anything "virtually hidden".  The top "edge" to get you to the roller may be on-screen, or you may slide up a row (or pages and pages).  To access it that way, you need to understand the concept of the "pages" and where you are in the listing, which I even find confusing sometimes in a Grid View (particularly a non-alphabetically sorted one).

My way, once you know you're heading for the left edge, you can "see" the left edge even if you are in Grid View.   Once you go off the left edge, then the word "Back" is on the screen right next to the cursor highlight.  Because I don't use many grid-type views, this almost always requires a single button press.  I would like it better if there was some kind of visual cue on the left edge, but there's no room.  And an iPod's column browser doesn't have that either, nor does the iOS settings screen or anything, so it works okay.

So, consider: From the navigation scheme I use, you still added two things:  Forward and Back.  Keep in mind, in essentially all of my views that people would encounter on their own, you don't see Grid-Views.  So it is only:

Up/Down to go up/down
Right/Left to go forward/back (with OK being generally functionally equivalent to Right while navigating, and only different when you're in the rollers at the top).

So, there is no Up/Down/Left/Right and then a separate concept of Forward/Back.  Just up/down and forward/back.

I use Grid Views only for things that are very curated.  They're never the default "sub-view" you get when you open one of the items from the root of Theater View (well, until I moved Kids, and I'm still not totally satisfied there).  I use them basically only for:

* That Kids View, which never has more than 1 and a half rows of thumbs to choose from (my screenshot actually shows an extra from normal, because AirVideo converted an episode of Dora and then MC imported it before I made that screenshot).

* My New Movies view, which is time-limited to the last 20 weeks or so, and usually contains around 1.5 screens worth of items.  The New Movies view is not the default when you open up Movies, so you'd already need to understand the navigation in Theater View quite well to access it at all.

But, even with these, I've never had any trouble explaining it to new users in a few seconds.  Once they get a little more comfortable using it (usually days or weeks later) I'll explain Page Up/Down and show them how to switch to the different "Sub-Views" using the secondary Roller bar.

[6233638]

Any controller like that with all those buttons is a non-starter.

The irony is that most device remotes have approximately a million more buttons on them than a controller which has four face buttons.

Precisely because you had to blur out all kinds of stuff to make your point.

I just tell them what X and O do and they're set.
I blurred it to make the point that those are the only controls being used, not because it's "complex".

I really prefer my remotes as small and with as few buttons as is possible (the Apple remote would be good if it wasn't so small, had better buttons, and wasn't IR).  Not "only a few relevant buttons" but actually fewer buttons.  But I'm one of those Apple Guys.  

I don't disagree. The reason I don't use a remote with my HTPC is because you either buy an Apple remote or you get a Logitech/WMC remote with 40+ buttons on it.
I've mentioned it before on the forums, but what I actually want is a universal remote like this. That has enough buttons to control every device in my HTPC setup, rather than just MC's interface. But it's a Sony TV remote not a universal one.

If you just wanted something for MC, the Apple remote is ideal since it gives you the cardinal directions, and ok/back/menu.
The issue with the Apple remote is that you have to not have any other Apple devices in the room, and it needs an IR receiver.

I didn't mean it that way.  What I meant is: the destination is on-screen.  The left edge is always on screen, and there is never anything "virtually hidden".  The top "edge" to get you to the roller may be on-screen, or you may slide up a row (or pages and pages).  To access it that way, you need to understand the concept of the "pages" and where you are in the listing, which I even find confusing sometimes in a Grid View (particularly a non-alphabetically sorted one).

I think you're arguing semantics here. It is no more logical that you would press left to get to the top of the screen.
It works in a list view. It makes no sense with a grid.

If the roller was a list of items on the left of the screen, it would make sense. But of course that would bring many more UI problems.
The "left takes you to the top" behavior is something you can learn, but it is not intuitive.
It's also something that I still consistently get wrong since every other program in existence wraps around to the previous line.

And an iPod's column browser doesn't have that either, nor does the iOS settings screen or anything, so it works okay.

But you can touch the back button directly. That's why those interfaces work.

So, consider:From the navigation scheme I use, you still added two things:  Forward and Back.  Keep in mind, in essentially all of my views that people would encounter on their own, you don't see Grid-Views.

Forward = Enter. I just called it forward because "forward/back" makes more sense than "enter/back".

Up	Down	Left	Right	Enter	Left-to-go-back	Home
Up	Down	Left	Right	X	O	N/A

A dedicated button is easier than a learned behavior.
The home button is unnecessary when you have a back button.

 
And I'm aware that X/O may seem backwards.
For some reason, Sony decided that:
In Japan X = Cancel, O = Accept
On US/Eu PlayStations, X = Accept, O = Cancel
 
The US/Eu way makes sense when you hold it - those are the buttons you would naturally press. But the labels don't make much sense if you stop and think about it, rather than treating them as shapes or colors.

[glynor]

The irony is that most device remotes have approximately a million more buttons on them than a controller which has four face buttons.

What?  Even an old NES controller has way more than four buttons on the face.

1. Up
2. Down
3. Left
4. Right
5. Start
6. Select
7. A
8. B

A modern game controller has way more, and others on the shoulder and usually more underneath.  And even the analog joysticks are usually buttons you can press down (since whenever Sony did that first).  They are really nice for games, of course.  But it is absolutely button overload.

I assume you were just talking about the "core grid" of buttons on the right-hand side.  But that's only because you "get" modern controllers, and know you can ignore everything else without having to think about them.

[glynor]

I've mentioned it before on the forums, but what I actually want is a universal remote like this. That has enough buttons to control every device in my HTPC setup, rather than just MC's interface. But it's a Sony TV remote not a universal one.

I tell you what.  My Logitech Smart Control is really pretty close.  It isn't perfect, by any means (too many small, identically sized buttons, and I wish the whole number set wasn't even there for my use)... But, it is pretty good:



Might want to check it out.  The Logitech software is pretty annoying, but it works, and once you set it up, the remote itself is very reliable.  To use it well with a HTPC, you'll be best served using it alongside EventGhost or Girder or something similar, but once you do that, it is quite solid.

I like how you can use it as a direct replacement for the AppleTV remote with a built in "setup" for that device too, if you have one of those on your system.

Also, worth noting that with Girder or EventGhost and a USB-receiver like a USB-UIRT, you can use ANY IR remote you want to control your PC.  IR is a deal-breaker for me, but if you want one of those, you could buy one and use it.

[6233638]

I assume you were just talking about the "core grid" of buttons on the right-hand side.  But that's only because you "get" modern controllers, and know you can ignore everything else without having to think about them.

Well it depends what you consider to be a "button"
The only things which actually stand out are the four colored buttons on the front. Anything else can be ignored.
The directional pad on the left is one thing rather than four buttons.

If I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone that's never touched a controller before, I suppose that I'd count 15 total.
But I've never had a problem handing someone a controller and if they are unfamiliar, telling them just to use the bright blue X and red O buttons.

My point was more that dedicated back/forward (ok/cancel, enter/back) buttons are easier than learning "gestures" (i.e. left takes you back) while also dealing with non-standard behavior. (grid won't wrap-around on the left)
 
I'm curious now though; if you are not using an Apple remote, what are you using which has fewer buttons than a controller? (~15 total, 4 "visible")
EDIT:

I tell you what.  My Logitech Smart Control is really pretty close.  It isn't perfect, by any means (too many small, identically sized buttons, and I wish the whole number set wasn't even there for my use)... But, it is pretty good:

That has 42 buttons on it!
 
I agree that it's probably the best solution for a Media Center remote that you can get right now - it's the one I had considered before realizing that a controller was both easier, and more convenient to use.
 

Also, worth noting that with Girder or EventGhost and a USB-receiver like a USB-UIRT, you can use ANY IR remote you want to control your PC.  IR is a deal-breaker for me, but if you want one of those, you could buy one and use it.

Having to set up an IR receiver kills it for me. Ideally the remote would use Bluetooth so I don't need any extra dongles or external boxes to set it up.
 
That's why I had hoped we would see official HDMI-CEC support in v20. But when I set up HDMI-CEC via other methods, it just made me realize that I don't want to use a remote with MC.

[glynor]

The "left takes you to the top" behavior is something you can learn, but it is not intuitive.

I agree here.

I preferred it the old way, where Left off of the left edge just took you back a level directly.  But that was too jarring for grid-view users (that "where they were" just vanished) so they added the "stop up top".  This turns out to be a handy navigational shortcut to get quickly back to the top roller for other functions (as they've added stuff to the top roller functions).

But, I agree, you have to be told.

Again, though, once you learn about the rollers a little, it can be ignored, because two quick left-presses gets you back.  And it does match, conceptually, the column-browser style navigation made popular (and widely understood) by the iPod.

[glynor]

EDIT: That has 42 buttons on it!

I know, it isn't perfect.  But you can tell people to ignore the number pad area, which reduces the noise substantially.

I only use that at home.  At the office we have custom-designed Crestron touch controllers on iPad minis.

[6233638]

Again, though, once you learn about the rollers a little, it can be ignored, because two quick left-presses gets you back.  And it does match, conceptually, the column-browser style navigation made popular (and widely understood) by the iPod.

As I said though, I just don't see what someone would be doing that they're halfway down a list and suddenly need to access the roller.
Surely they are just trying to go "back" and that is one press rather than several if you use a back button rather than "left".

I know, it isn't perfect.  But you can tell people to ignore the number pad area, which reduces the noise substantially.
I only use that at home.  At the office we have custom-designed Crestron touch controllers on iPad minis.

Well that's the same argument as a controller then. Ignore most of it and you'll be fine.
The controller has less that has to be ignored though, and only four of the buttons actually stand out. (the only ones you need)
 
I think this is distracting from the main point here though, which is that grid views should wrap around when you hit the left edge.

[glynor]

I agree that it's probably the best solution for a Media Center remote that you can get right now - it's the one I had considered before realizing that a controller was both easier, and more convenient to use.

Yep.  I get it.  My Apple Remote is set up too.  IR is not acceptable though for me at home.  I use the Apple Remote on my Laptop here and there, though, and it works perfectly well with MC in Theater View.  (That's super-handy for hotels.)  And, I have my 360 controllers set up to work on my HTPC too.  They're wired though, which is cruddy.  I'm the only one who really uses them that way.  I find the like-a-tv remote-ness of the Logitech is much easier to explain than using a game controller.  For a person that has lived and grown up with game consoles?  Maybe.  Sure.  If those are most of the users of your device, then I think it can be a great solution.

For lots of the people I encounter and deal with, that isn't true.  It's mostly about labeling.  On a game controller, nothing but the directional pad is labeled for function, and there is a lot of "button noise" that you have to learn about.  But, you can usually assume most users are pretty used to the concept of a TV and VCR-style of remote.  The FF/Rewind/Play/Pause etc buttons are all self-explanatory.  The Number buttons are also obvious (and in my system, essentially never used).  The rest are labeled for function, essentially, except for the dumb colored buttons.  But those are familiar to anyone who has a BluRay player so there's that.  Of course, I don't encounter a ton of those people either.

In a perfect world, there would be something much better.  But, if you want a simple remote-like-remote that works well with a PC and some other devices, this is a pretty good choice.

[glynor]

I think this is distracting from the main point here though, which is that grid views should wrap around when you hit the left edge.

I don't think that should be the default behavior, but I agree it should be an option.

Everyone in this thread should try some Lineup-style views.  Use the Grid for the last-level (viewing the file listing itself) of the View, if at all.  Like an iPod-style column browser.  You might be surprised how nice it is, particularly if you have a lot of content to navigate through.

[6233638]

I don't think that should be the default behavior, but I agree it should be an option.

I actually do think that it should be the default.
The default should be set up to match standard UI behaviors found everywhere else.
 
Don't change the behavior for anyone that has a current install of MC, but new setups should behave like every other program on the system.


And if there is a need for it, I think an additional option where pressing back takes you to the roller before taking you up a level may be worthwhile.
But - at least for how I use MC - I don't see any reason to jump up to the roller like that from the middle of a list.

Everyone in this thread should try some Lineup-style views.  Use the Grid for the last-level (viewing the file listing itself) of the View, if at all.  Like an iPod-style column browser.  You might be surprised how nice it is, particularly if you have a lot of content to navigate through.

Literally takes 6x longer to get through a list of items compared to the grid. (I timed it)
I prefer to use a grid with nested views to speed up navigation instead.
E.g. Presenting a list of A-Z then artist names, rather than all artist names displayed on the grid at once. (though there is the "display all" option if you want that)

[glynor]

I actually do think that it should be the default.
The default should be set up to match standard UI behaviors found everywhere else.

You can't, because you have to add another button to the required list (or suffer through up-arrowing-endlessly).  In any case, I think what I'm supporting is more likely to actually happen (especially since Hendrik suggested it).

But, you've made your point, as have I.

[BartMan01]

That's true, of course.  But I haven't actually seen it confuse too many real unexperienced users.  I just tell people that going Left will always eventually get you back (off the left edge).  What I love about the system is that I can give the remote to someone who has never seen it before, and tell them only these things:

It doesn't 'confuse' anyone - but it frustrates the heck out of a lot of us.  I have almost everything in grid view, and I prefer it that way.  Every other UI that we use here is in grid view as well, many don't even have a 'list view' option.  The issue for me is that since I spend at least half (usually more) of my time in other grid view UIs that do wrap around to the right when you go off left, I have an ingrained muscle memory for that behavior.  In MC, before I even have a chance to think about it I have scrolled up to the top roller.

My two issues with the current behavior are:
Adds additional button clicks to get to the right side of the grid view.  With the recent changes (some views no longer have the summary info on the right), it can take up to 7 clicks now to get to the right as opposed to just one left click.
Works differently than everything else out there when dealing with grid view items, so it is not intuitive and easy to 'mess up'.

If I want to get to the right most grid item, here is a not uncommon situation:
Mis-click to the right by one (8 * right arrow), so I end up on the left side one down from where I want to be.
Click left by habit and end up at the top roller.
Click down twice to get back to where I was.
Click right 7 times (correctly) to get back to the right side of the screen.
Click up once to get back to the row above.

So compared to the other UI's that I use:
If done right, 7 clicks vs 1.
If done wrong per the above example, 19 clicks instead of 2 or 3 when done wrong in other UIs.

[glynor]

If I want to get to the right most grid item, here is a not uncommon situation:

That's why I don't like Grid-View systems, generally.  You have to understand the "wrap around" (and remember to do it optimally each time) for reaching the sides of the screen to work well.  It does work nicely with touch, but I don't like grids for arrows-only navigation.

But, to each their own.  I get where you're coming from, for the 800th time.

[Fangio]

I can't tell you how many times I have found myself saying to a guest "oh yeah, sorry, it does that if you hit left when you're there". It's not doing what they expected.

[mwillems]

Just to present an alternative viewpoint on this: I never used any 10 foot interfaces before theater view (it was my first).  In part because of the left-back (and up-back) behavior, I find that I am completely incapable of navigating other 10 foot interfaces.  

I've got a few little arm boxes that run XBMC/Kodi, and I probably spent half an hour trying to figure out how to go back a level, and still screw it up periodically because there's no way to just go up or left out of any of the views and the "back" button sometimes goes up one level, sometimes skips back to the main, and sometimes works like a browser's back button with no rhyme or reason.  I have a similar experience when using android based media players and/or Rokus.

I found the up-back and left-back behavior of theater view relatively intuitive when I first encountered it, and I much prefer it to the arcane shenanigans I have to go through with XBMC.  And FWIW, I exclusively use grid views.  

I mention all this because, to my mind, it outlines two points:

1) What makes for intuitive UI is very much in the eye of the beholder; and
2) Theater View really does navigation differently than every other 10 Foot UI out there that I've encountered.  

From my perspective 2) is good news, but I'm supportive of an option to turn it off for folks who are accustomed to the way most 10ft interfaces work.

[glynor]

Well said, mwillems.  That's largely how I feel.  The other ones I have to deal with drive me batty.  One thought... Part of the reason that the behavior of left/right in the Grid style views feels non-intuitive, I think, is that it is internally inconsistent:
* The left edge jumps to the top roller, and then back.
* The right edge wraps

I find this confusing.  Part of the reason I get frustrated with grid-style views on many TV-type user interfaces is that they aren't consistent with this.  Some wrap, and some "stick" at the edges.  On some devices (Polycom, I'm looking at you) in some places they wrap, and in others they don't, which drives me crazy.  But, even in these cases, they don't have one edge wrap and the other not wrap.

MC drives me even crazier, to a degree, because it tries to "play the middle".  The left-edge is special, the right edge teaches you that you can use a wrapping like behavior.

As I mentioned above, this was not originally the case when this navigation system debuted.  The right-hand side originally did NOT wrap, and your cursor just stopped there.  They changed this (quickly, within a build or three if I recall) to allow wrapping because people who use Grid-Views a lot freaked out.

Perhaps, adding this option frees you from that choice?

If you add the option, can the behavior be:

* Just like it is now, but the right-hand side just "sticks".  Perhaps a single-tap sticks, and a second tap quickly thereafter ALSO kicks you to the top roller (so you can do it from each side).

* Wrapping enabled wraps on both sides, making those people in this thread happy.

Plus, it makes naming the Option simpler (and simpler named options tend to denote good choices).  You just call it "Wrap around at edges in Grid style views".

Having to set up an IR receiver kills it for me. Ideally the remote would use Bluetooth so I don't need any extra dongles or external boxes to set it up.

The Logitech Smart Hub based controllers do support Bluetooth.  They show up to the computer just like a standard Bluetooth keyboard, and a whole bunch of the buttons "just work" in that configuration.

The bad thing is that you can't "capture" these button presses with Girder or EventGhost unless you want to also capture the same keypresses on a standard keyboard.  So, for programming the buttons that don't "do the right thing" out of the box, I also program certain buttons to do standard Media Center IR blasts.  I've explained what I do here before in more detail.  If you're curious, yell, and I'll dig up the thread.

In any case, it works well.  The Logitech thingy comes with a little IR extender emitter, and I just velcro-taped that into my HTPC's box/shelf directly in front of the USB-UIRT sensor (which I already had so that I can control my TV and amp anyway).  It works great.  The emitter device it comes with is even surprisingly strong and wide-angle.  I have, and was going to set up a separate stick-on emitter for my amp, but I haven't had to.  That same emitter controls my amp just fine even though it is on a separate wooden shelf a "tier" below the HTPC and USB-UIRT.  I think it reflects off the lexan front I have on my HTPC shelf, but I'm not sure.  In any case, it has been rock solid reliable (I already have the stick-on emitter attached to the amp, I just need to move the jack from the back of the USB-UIRT device and re-route it to the smart hub thing, but I've never bothered because it has never once not worked right).

And, it does the AppleTV control fully through bluetooth, and I find it more responsive than the included Apple remote.

In any case, I like it.  I wish:

* The buttons were back-lit
* The number-pad area was gone
* The Activity buttons were more distinguished than by color, such as texture and/or height (and I'd prefer different icons).
* The Info button was where the Menu button is
* The DVR/Guide/Info area was only two buttons, labeled with icons instead of text, for "Guide" and "Menu."

With those changes, it be even better and more ideal for my needs.  But they're unlikely to design such a thing, unfortunately.

[Castius]

I don't want this new option to be the new default. It's ok for jriver theater view to be different than others.
Theater view works better and is faster with most other 10" UI.

Personally i just don't like left is back even for list views.
But maybe this will help you understand why i don't like it.

left once, down twice: Take you back to were you were in the list.
left twice, down twice: Takes you to the top of the list.
This could be what makes it feel so garing to me.

What about this for a compromise?
Would it be possible for down twice to always returned you to the position it was in the list or grid.
This would help it make it feel closer to a back/forwards navigation.

[Castius]

Another interesting info to note regarding this.

There are three views that use left will to take you back
And there are three don't respect left to take you back.

[6233638]

I've got a few little arm boxes that run XBMC/Kodi, and I probably spent half an hour trying to figure out how to go back a level, and still screw it up periodically because there's no way to just go up or left out of any of the views and the "back" button sometimes goes up one level, sometimes skips back to the main, and sometimes works like a browser's back button with no rhyme or reason.  I have a similar experience when using android based media players and/or Rokus.

Media Center already has a back function. It always steps up one level. (same as hitting back on the roller)

1) What makes for intuitive UI is very much in the eye of the beholder; and
2) Theater View really does navigation differently than every other 10 Foot UI out there that I've encountered.

For me, the comparison is not even against other 10ft UI's. It's against every other grid-based view on any device I've ever used. E.g. Windows Explorer.

As I mentioned above, this was not originally the case when this navigation system debuted.  The right-hand side originally did NOT wrap, and your cursor just stopped there.  They changed this (quickly, within a build or three if I recall) to allow wrapping because people who use Grid-Views a lot freaked out.
Perhaps, adding this option frees you from that choice?

I agree - consistency is key here.
I would much rather than Media Center either wrapped at both edges, or neither.
I'm not sure whether the right edge should take you to the roller though. If you just held down right, you would end up in Playing Now - though maybe that's a good thing?
I don't know, I don't use the primary roller for anything unless I'm selecting "Play All" once I get to a tracklist.
And just so we're clear, I'm not suggesting that it disables the left/right edge commands in a list view. Only for grid views where it makes sense that it would wrap around when you hit the left or right edge.

Again; I'd like it if someone could describe a scenario where you need to get to the primary roller from the middle of a list though - assuming that you have a dedicated back button if you're set to wrap around at the edges. (so you're not trying to get to the roller to go back)

The only time I can think you would want to do that, is if you're trying to get to the secondary roller, rather than the primary one.
Now frankly, I dislike the secondary roller altogether, but perhaps you build in an exception where "back" will take you to the secondary roller if one exists - or you make that a preference.
The problem is that this is now adding potential for inconsistent behaviors. But I think I'd prefer to be taken to the secondary roller (which only appears in my top-level Audio/Video/Film views) than not.

The Logitech Smart Hub based controllers do support Bluetooth.  They show up to the computer just like a standard Bluetooth keyboard, and a whole bunch of the buttons "just work" in that configuration.

The problem is that I don't want another box in the room. An IR receiver is smaller than the Logitech box. (which still needs line of sight, since it blasts IR everywhere)

A universal remote, a Bluetooth remote, or HDMI-CEC control don't need a visible receiver at all.
A universal remote learns commands and transmits them via the remote itself. (which is good for replacing device remotes, but would still require HDMI-CEC if you want to eliminate an IR receiver for the PC)
CEC goes through the HDMI connection between the PC and the display so the receiver is built into the TV, and Bluetooth doesn't need line of sight so the receiver can be hidden away.

* The buttons were back-lit

It's interesting, because that's another one of those things that I thought I wanted, until I actually had devices with backlit remotes. They're pretty much worthless in my experience.
Better to have a remote and an interface that requires few enough buttons that it makes sense, than a remote you need to look at to use.

[rammingspeed]

I just want standardized remote control features to work the way most controllers label the buttons:

 - Menu = Jumps to top menu "roller" bar
 - Exit = Navigates back up the menu navigation tree you have descended
 - Guide = Jumps to the TV Guide No Matter where I placed it in my customized menu system
 - Info = Brings up detailed info on the show / file being played
 - Up and down arrows wrap within the list / grid currently in focus
 - Left and Right arrows wrap within the list / grid currently in focus

and by the way, the left arrow off the grid to the roller menu = SUPER ANNOYING

[mwillems]

Media Center already has a back function. It always steps up one level. (same as hitting back on the roller)

Which Media Center do you mean?  JRiver?  My point in that passage was that I can't figure out back functions in non-JRiver platforms because they behave so inconsistently.  Or is your point that JRiver already has a consistent back function, so the left-back behavior is technically unnecessary?

For me, the comparison is not even against other 10ft UI's. It's against every other grid-based view on any device I've ever used. E.g. Windows Explorer.

That's an interesting perspective, but I never made the connection between the two because I don't navigate windows explorer with an IR remote control (or an xbox controller).  For whatever reason, my brain never expected a remote control driven interface to be similar to mouse and keyboard views because those have a completely different UI and control surface.  The fact that a left button press in a grid view in JRiver's standard view works exactly like a left button press in explorer seems intuitive to me because I expect a mouse to do out of frame navigation and the keyboard to do in frame navigation (with some exceptions) in a normal windows interface.

But when you're in fullscreen and you only have a single control surface (remote, xbox controller), all bets are off (at least in my head   ).  

[6233638]

Or is your point that JRiver already has a consistent back function, so the left-back behavior is technically unnecessary?

This.
 
What I've suggested above actually makes it a little inconsistent, by having it jump to the secondary roller rather than immediately step back a level, if a secondary roller exists - but I think it makes sense there.
The secondary roller is used for navigation as another level above your current view, even though it is displayed on the same screen.
 
The primary roller is used for playback control rather than navigation, so it does not make sense to use a navigation command (back) to jump to it.
 
 
EDIT: Rather than calling it "back" perhaps "up" is more technically correct.
As in, it always takes you up one level in the navigation tree.
 
"Back" would imply that it may at some point return to a previous view, rather than always moving up the tree. (like Windows Explorer now tries to do when you hit backspace, which is infuriating)

[glynor]

Again; I'd like it if someone could describe a scenario where you need to get to the primary roller from the middle of a list though - assuming that you have a dedicated back button if you're set to wrap around at the edges. (so you're not trying to get to the roller to go back)

I use it all the time to go to Playing Now.

[Castius]

just to try to keep this clear. Here is what i see the current behaviurs.
please correct me if i'm wrong.

back/forward: takes you up/down whole level.
left will navigate a grid/list. And sometime take you up to navigate bar, then up a level. (based on the list view)
right will navigate to the right and stop
down will navigate to the button of a list. Hitting down again takes you to the top of the list
up will take you to the top of a list. hitting up again will take you to the bottom of the list.
pageUp/pageDown move up and down the list.

To me it's pretty simple. left is the only one that has an inconsistent behaviour.
All i want is a option for left to stay in it's context. If it's in a list left continue left. Not go up.
This will make all views consistent.

So i can see how this would cause problem getting to the navigation bar for some views.
As you would loose your place in the list.

This is just my opinion.
I would like either like back to take me to the navigation bar and down to take me back to the list.
or
Down always return me to the item in the list i was at. before left took me up a level.

Sadly i feel all three options have there downsides.
Always remembering your place in a list can be jarring in other ways.
However for me an option to change left and back behavior is the lest negative.

Even if nothing changes. i feel i have a better understanding of all the navigation that was bothering me.

Thank you everyone. For doing your best to keep this opinion thread civil.
Scott

[glynor]

right will navigate to the right and stop

Oh yeah!  I thought they'd changed that.  I had to go test it because I don't use Grid-style views much.

I have no idea what you're talking about where Left doesn't take you to the top roller and then back.  The only "view" I can think of that does that is Playing Now, which isn't a Media View anyway.  The left-right controls here act like additional rollers.

Other than that, left always:
* Moves the selection cursor one notch to the "left".
* When the selection cursor is already at the left edge of the screen, then it moves the selection to the home position of the top roller bar

[glynor]

down will navigate to the button of a list. Hitting down again takes you to the top of the list

Correct.

DOWN an additional time from the bottom of a list will wrap around selection to the top of a list.  However, holding DOWN (to go rapidly down through the list) will "catch" at the bottom of a list.  This is so you don't quickly wrap around and around through the list by sitting on your remote or whatever.

To Wrap around, you must pause for a brief instant, and then tap the DOWN key again.

up will take you to the top of a list. hitting up again will take you to the bottom of the list.

Incorrect.  From the top of a list hitting UP takes you to the Lower Roller Bar.

First, to understand, the roller bars are an essential part of the UI.  You might not like them, but that's irrelevant because they've already said that core things won't be changed here.  So that's not worth discussing.

So, Theater View provides two ways to get to the Roller Bars in any Media View:

1. Move the cursor to the top of any list, and then press UP once.
2. Move the cursor to the left edge of any list, and then press LEFT once.

The first way, takes you to the Secondary Roller (which allows switching Views).  This:
* Obviously requires moving the "view window" (the set of files visible on screen below) to the top of the list
* It does not matter where (left or right) you are on the top row.  You just have to be at the top row of the view.
* You always enter the Secondary Roller on the item for the currently active view
* From the Secondary Roller Bar, if you move the selection cursor back to the file listing, the cursor will remember and "jump to" the previously selected item from the top row.

The second way takes you to the Top Roller (which allows going Back up a level, switching Zones, changing the View Style, and accessing Playing Now). This:
* Does not require moving the "view window" (the set of files visible on screen remains the same)
* It does not matter where in the list you are (up or down), but you must be against the left-most edge.
* It always takes you to the home position of the Top Roller Bar.
* From the top roller bar, if you move the selection cursor back to the file listing, the cursor will remember and "jump to" your previously selected row in the view.

What the proposal is, if I understand it correctly, is an option to turn off #2 in Grid-style Views.  This means, the only way to access the Top Roller would be:
* Move the cursor to the top of the list
* Press UP once, to go to the Second Roller.
* Press UP a second time, to go to the home position of the Top Roller.

This means that for any Grid-type view, to go back one level in the Category hierarchy, you'd need to:
* Move the cursor to the top of the list (via Page Up if you have this button, holding Up if your remote works well, or rapid-firing Up if you are very unlucky)
* At the top of the list, UP again to go to the Secondary Roller.
* And again to get to the Top Roller
* And now you'd need to hit LEFT to hit the back item in the Top Roller.

You would gain:
* Selection cursor movement would wrap around the left and right edges of a Grid-type view in Theater View.

[glynor]

Hey... Just throwing it out there as an alternative idea.

It sounds to me like the thing that annoys some people about the current scheme amounts to the fact that this:

2. Move the cursor to the left edge of any list, and then press LEFT once.

Is too easy to access accidentally when holding down or "rapid-fire hitting" the LEFT key.  When you hold down the LEFT key on a Grid-style View of items, it rapidly moves the cursor to the left edge, immediately jumps up to the Top Roller, and then immediately goes back a level.

This forces you to "be careful" at the left edge of a grid of items.

Perhaps we already have a solution for this though, with the existing wrap-around behavior of going DOWN from the bottom of a list:

DOWN an additional time from the bottom of a list will wrap around selection to the top of a list.  However, holding DOWN (to go rapidly down through the list) will "catch" at the bottom of a list.  This is so you don't quickly wrap around and around through the list by sitting on your remote or whatever.

What you'd seem to actually want is an identical "catch" at the left edge of a Grid-style View's list.  So that you don't accidentally rapid-fire through to the Top Roller, but where it must be an explicit command.

I understand that some people want left-right wrap-around too, but (much to my surprise) it seems that MC is consistent here and does NOT currently wrap at the right edge either.

This "catch" at the left edge, if applied only to Grid-style views (where you would ever need to navigate a list with LEFT/RIGHT at all), would be reasonable and wouldn't require an Option at all, in my opinion.  I think you could just "do it".

That alone might make it feel less confusing, and not require an option. Or it could be done and provide an option to allow Grid-style views to wrap at the left and right edges.

[fitbrit]

I can't tell you how many times I have found myself saying to a guest "oh yeah, sorry, it does that if you hit left when you're there". It's not doing what they expected.

Two of my friends stopped using MC as soon as they stumbled on this.

[csimon]

I think the key to this is acknowledging that the browse area and the menu area are two distinct panes and you should be able to switch between the two easily and with one key press. What's been discussed here so far is accidentally going to the menu area when you don't want to. But equally it's incredibly frustrating to try to get to the menu when you want to and you are in the middle of the browsing pane. To switch zones maybe, I outlined that situation before (starting playback in the wrong zone and trying to rectify that). Then when you come back, you've lost your position in the browse window.

[6233638]

I understand that some people want left-right wrap-around too, but (much to my surprise) it seems that MC is consistent here and does NOT currently wrap at the right edge either.

I'm not seeing that.
It wraps around whether I am holding right, or at the right edge and tap the right arrow.
 

One way I often use Theater View is that we want to watch a film, but are unsure of what we want to see.
So I open up a view which displays all films in the library in a random order and just hold down the right key to scroll through it. (holding down scrolls through them too quickly to see)
If something catches our eye, I've usually overshot it, so I hold left to get back to that film.
Oops, MC just stepped back a level and now when I return to that view I'm at the top of my list again with a newly randomized order.
Frowny face.

Now this is not the only case where it is an annoyance, it's the worst-case scenario that can (and does) happen in my current setup.

Even if you're just looking for a specific item in a list and know where it is, it's easy to over-shoot when you're scrolling through it quickly, and it's instinctive to hit the left arrow to wrap around if your cursor ended up at the left edge, and the item you want is on the right of the previous line.
 

I use it all the time to go to Playing Now.

OK, but that is not a command related to your current position in the list.
You don't need direct access to Playing Now from the middle of a list.
 
And again; this has no bearing on an actual list view, rather than the grid view. You would still be able to go back by hitting the left arrow there.
I do think this behavior makes sense there, since right also works as an "enter" command, and because it can take a long time to scroll all the way to the top or bottom of a list to get to the roller.
It's very fast to do that in a grid view.

First, to understand, the roller bars are an essential part of the UI.  You might not like them, but that's irrelevant because they've already said that core things won't be changed here.  So that's not worth discussing.

I disagree that they are "essential" - I actually think there are better options to use than the rollers, which would reduce complexity.
But I do agree that it's a larger change that is likely to be made any time soon, and is not worth discussing here.

I would like either like back to take me to the navigation bar and down to take me back to the list.

I definitely don't want to see that. It doubles the number of presses of the "back" button required to get back to the home screen - which could be as many as 14 in my current views.
I can see the need for the "back" command to take you to a secondary roller - since that is a navigation item rather than a playback item - but not taking you to a primary roller.
 
I suppose you could build in some logic where it takes you to the primary roller the first time you hit back, but subsequent presses will only step you back a level until you start browsing again. But that's an additional layer of complexity and unpredictability that I don't like at all.
 

Down always return me to the item in the list i was at. before left took me up a level.

Going one step further, when you back out a view, it would be nice if you were returned to your previous position when returning to it.

I think the key to this is acknowledging that the browse area and the menu area are two distinct panes and you should be able to switch between the two easily and with one key press. What's been discussed here so far is accidentally going to the menu area when you don't want to. But equally it's incredibly frustrating to try to get to the menu when you want to and you are in the middle of the browsing pane. To switch zones maybe, I outlined that situation before (starting playback in the wrong zone and trying to rectify that). Then when you come back, you've lost your position in the browse window.

I understand that in theory, but in practice it has never been an issue for me. If there was an option to switch the primary roller off, I could do so without any consequence.
Using a third button (or a gesture) to switch to it adds an additional layer of complexity that I'm not sure is necessary.
It takes less than three seconds to get to the roller from the bottom of my largest grid view, just by holding the up arrow. For how infrequently it is accessed, that's fine.
If I enter a new view, I'm right at the top where the roller is, and just need to press up once.

If you need to switch to Playing Now a lot, I'd have a button dedicated to it on the remote instead of hitting left, right , right , right , right , right
That may be muscle memory by now, but it's not intuitive or good design in my opinion.
 
If you're switching Zones via the roller, I'd urge you to set up Zone Switch.
Then again, I've never used Theater View to start anything but local playback.
Remote playback has either been managed via a phone for me, since that lets me be in the same room.

[Hendrik]

I'm not seeing that.
It wraps around whether I am holding right, or at the right edge and tap the right arrow.

Same here, which is why not having left wrap is annoying, you cant go back when you overshoot your target.

[Castius]

Sorry you are correct i misstype that part.

By preventing left from move to the navigation you would would need to move to the top of the list to get to the navigation.
This is what is required of the three view that do not use left as up.

I could certainly see it helping is left and up would "catch". Then pause before moving to the navigation bar.
This also might help all view types to match.

It would help but certainly doesn't do much for the wrap left wrap right issue.