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[kstuart]

In some other DVRs, if the Guide Listings change after a timer ("Recording Rule") is created, then "By Name" recordings will fail to record.

This is a benefit IF it matches the user's intention.

For example, if the user sets up a recording rule for "Castle" and instead the network does not show the program that week, then the user does not have unwanted recordings cluttering his hard drive.

However, there is a "gotcha" with sports, where the user already knows he wants to record an event mentioned on a news site, but the listings have the program Name as:

" NBA Playoffs - Teams TBA "

With other DVRs, if you setup a timer for that program, and the next day, the listings changed to:

" NBA Playoffs - New Orleans vs Golden State "

then the DVR would NOT record, because it assumed that what you wanted was the program "Teams TBA".

After having missed events, the user would learn to setup a "manual timer" by day, time and channel.

SO, how does all that work in MC20 ?

Apparently, there is no way to setup a manual timer for a one-time recording - only recurring recordings can be done by day, time and channel.

[CountryBumkin]

I'm interested too.

I set up a subscription to record "NOVA" at all times, on all channels, but do not record previously recorded episodes.

First I set it up as "exact name match" and "search all fields". But some episodes didn't record. I think it is because sometime the name is just "NOVA" and sometimes it is "NOVA The Great Math Mystery", and in that case it is not an exact name match so it doesn't record.

If I remove the "exact name match" then it will record everything in the time slot no matter what the name (show) it is.

Or maybe something else caused the recording to be missed and I am balming the wrong thing.

[culliganman]

Apparently, there is no way to setup a manual timer for a one-time recording - only recurring recordings can be done by day, time and channel.

The way I record a one time thing is to set the date and time, then highlight the channel I want to record.
I then click record, click record only this program (it is the default)
Set priority, etc, and click finish.

I have mostly given up on recording by name for recurring shows,and record by time but name it so it is easier to
understand when I look at recording rules.

[kstuart]

The way I record a one time thing is to set the date and time, then highlight the channel I want to record.
I then click record, click record only this program (it is the default)
Set priority, etc, and click finish.

I have mostly given up on recording by name for recurring shows,and record by time but name it so it is easier to
understand when I look at recording rules.

Yes, but one of the questions is whether "record only this program" will record the time slot if the program name changes later in the week.

[Yaobing]

I believe the recording will go on.  There is no name-matching when recording is scheduled as a one-time program-based recording.  A program is basically defined by its time slot and the channel on which it is aired.  The name is just an attribute that can be changed.

[kstuart]

I believe the recording will go on.  There is no name-matching when recording is scheduled as a one-time program-based recording.  A program is basically defined by its time slot and the channel on which it is aired.  The name is just an attribute that can be changed.

Actually, it seems that it is name-based (was the code written by someone else?).

For other reasons, I decided to record the program on both PCs that I currently have setup with MC20 and TV tuners.   I have the program guide scheduled to update at 8am on one and 9am on the other (just to avoid having both PCs accessing the Internet at the same moment).

The PC that has the program guide update scheduled at 9am did not update the program guide - probably because there was a program scheduled to record at 9am, and I guess that MC20 does not update the program guide when it is recording (is that correct?).

The PC that did have the program guide update (at 8am) ended up with a different name for the program (with the actual team names) and the game was NOT in the To Be Recorded list (it was still in Recording Rules).  This is identical to what I used to see with cable/satellite DVRs.

The PC that did not have the program guide update still had the old program name in the Listings, and still had the program in the To Be Recorded List.  (It then did start to record using that information.)

BTW, satellite DVRs don't actually identify programs by name, they only use the name for searching, and then use an ID code number to identify the program - which IIRC is determined by the listings service.  So, when the program changed from "Teams TBA" to the actual name of the teams, the listing service would change the ID code number and that was why the DVR thought it was a different program.

[Yaobing]

Actually, it seems that it is name-based (was the code written by someone else?).

  The code was initially written by Matt, but I certainly have had my hands on it.


I did an experiment.  I scheduled to record a movie, on AMC, "Vegas Vacation".  Before recording started, I manually changed the program entry name to "Vegas Vacation modified", to simulate programming change.  The show was recorded without a problem.  The modified name was used as the name of the recording.

This morning I double-checked our program entry updating code.  We use existing programming entry, and only update its attributes, such as name and description.  Programming entries are created using their channel and start time.  So unless either the start time or channel changes, exiting entries are used.  My simulation by manually changing the program name was therefore valid.

[kstuart]

Sometimes in these situations, the start time does change slightly (it's possible that was the case on Saturday).

If that is a criteria, then the recording is still dependent on a match to the listings.

A "manual timer" :

  Channel 3 at 10am on April 21st for one hour

will record regardless, it does not get turned off by a change in the listings.

Currently, the "subscribe" feature allows manual timers, but not the one-time record.

There is another problem with MC20 that could be fixed by manual timers.

This is that it is not possible to record a channel that does not have guide listings.  When it is selected in "Television", one only sees "click here to setup a program guide".

Similarly, if the guide listings on a channel are totally wrong (e.g. a sporting event in the listings is canceled due to weather), then there is no way to setup a timer for substitute programming (such as announced in a crawl, or on the web site).

[Yaobing]

When program time changes, even if slightly, it becomes a tough call.  I will have to think about it.  Maybe we will be able to keep existing recording if the program start time differ only by a small amount.

If you foresee a possible change in programming, you can change recording rule to time-based rule, instead of program based.

[kstuart]

The Subscribed Recording Rules have:

* choice of By Name or By Time
* Still catches program if time changes slightly ("near 3:00pm")

The one-time Recording Rules have:

* no choice
* Not by Name (does not check name)
* Not by Time (will not record anything at that time)
* does Not catch program if time changes slightly

Please delete all the code for the one-time Recording Rules and add the following checkbox to Subscribed Recording Rules:

_  Only record program once

and that will solve all the problems.

[RoderickGI]

Please delete all the code for the one-time Recording Rules and add the following checkbox to Subscribed Recording Rules:

I think that is a bit presumptuous, and not even correct. But the recording rules do need some thought and rework. Okay, a lot of thought and rework.

After all, there is an option under the configuration of a "once off" recording to "Keep at most" x episodes. I can't see how you could keep x episodes of a one time recording unless MC tries to match the once off recording to other recordings of a series, using only the recording name which is based on the highlighted program name, which is fraught with issues.

Also the "When" and "Compare fields" fields in the "By name" section of a Subscription remain active when "By time only" is selected for a subscription recording type. Does this mean that those fields are still used for a Subscription, even if it is time based?
EDIT: I answered my own question here, by creating a recording using those fields, and then editing the Rule. Neither field is available for editing, so I have to assume that the fields are ignored and should not be active when creating a "By time only" subscription. When creating the subscription I deleted the value in the "Start Time" field to see if the program time was picked up from the "When" field. It was not. The value "12:00 am" was inserted, which of course was completely wrong for the 4pm program I had selected.

Adding a fully "Manual Recording" alternative may meet your specific requirements Kstuart. Or just adding the required fields to the once off recording dialogues so that it could effectively used as a Manual Recording.

But my preference would be an improvement in the rules MC supports, so that a change to the description in the guide did not mean that the recording was missed. For example, partial matches on names (including masks, beginning matches [CSI], end matches [Crime Scene Investigation], anywhere matches, pattern matching [NCIS? New *], alternate names (NCIS vs N.C.I.S.), acronyms (CSI vs Crime Scene Investigation), exclusions (NOT CSI: New York), and so on.

The other issue around the rules is visibility of what parts of the rule have been applied to select a program, and visibility of which future programs have been selected by a rule. These capabilities would help with ensuring that what the user wants and was expecting is actually what MC will do.

[RoderickGI]

Yaobing I see you took note of some of the comments above, and removed the "Keep at most" x episodes for "once off" recordings, plus rearranged the TV recordings a lot in 20.0.103.

I had a look through the changes and everything held together on my main client PC. I will have to try it on my HTPC later today.

I'm not sure the changes will completely satisfy kstuart's requirements, but the once off recordings can be used with padding to catch small time changes, I believe. I haven't tested all that though, where start time changes and so on.

Incremental improvements are always appreciated. Thanks Yaobing.

PS: I like that the non-subscription recordings shown in the "To Be Recorded" list have a slightly darker red icon. I don't think I noticed that before.

[Yaobing]

Time change on a program is not a straight forward issue.  Our design is such that a "program" is defined by its start time and its channel.  When there is a change in time, we save a new program and delete the old program.  That results in the old program not being recorded.

I can add some checks when deleting an old program when a new program takes its time slot (but slightly shifted in time), to see if the old program has been scheduled to record, and add a new recording for the new program if necessary.  This gets complicated if we have to consider whether the new program is just the old one with slight time-shift.  For example, should we make sure the name match?  Or partially match?  Or not care about the name at all?

The icons for subscription recording and non-subscription recording are different, and it is not a recent change.  You just did not notice it.

[RoderickGI]

Hmm, so there are no purely Channel, Time and Duration based planned recordings? They are all linked to a program entity?

I am used to systems that used program data to set recordings by channel, time and duration in the underlying database, even if they are series recordings/subscriptions. The recordings weren't specifically linked to a program as such. In fact external software could send a recording to this software simply by telling it the Channel, Time, and Duration, and the software would then decide which program that would record, show it in the Guide, and so on. If I understand correctly, MC's design does indeed make it harder to get around certain problems. It wouldn't even be possible to create a completely manual recording in that case.

Okay, first to be clear I get around kstuart's original problem, the "NBA Playoffs - Teams TBA" changing to "NBA Playoffs - New Orleans vs Golden State" by just selecting the program in its original state, and then changing the subscription I create to just match on the beginning of the name, "NBA Playoffs", no exact match, no search all fields for name, the reruns and previously recorded boxes left unchecked. Of course MC then records all "NBA Playoffs" games, but I just delete the ones I don't want to watch. It requires a little bit more manual maintenance, but I don't miss programs. This is exactly how I record MotoGP races.

I get about four recordings for each race, the original live recording and three repeats over the following week. I can't use the "Do not record reruns" flag, because the repeats aren't usually flagged as reruns in the EPG. I can't use the "Do not record programs that have been recorded in the past" because the name of the repeats is often different to the original recording. I could get just the one recording if I could select to record the program both by name and time, or approximate time, but that isn't possible with current functionality.

The attached image shows a test Subscription I created for "Bananas in Pyjamas", with the view filtered to just show that program. All episodes are selected to be recorded using just the name "Bananas", just as I get all recordings for the MotoGP races just using the name "MotoGP". Comparing with the second image, you can see with the repeats flag set, six programs aren't selected for recording. However, all those episodes are repeats, the EPG just doesn't flag them correctly. I only include this to show the problem with poor and changing EPG data.

I do think MC TV functionality would work better with some more rules in the subscription process. The software I used previously had the simple program name based program selection, but also had exclusions based on the name or episode name. (i.e. All "CSI", but not "CSI: New York"), selection based on SD or HD broadcasts, wildcards etc. that I mentioned before. It even had Boolean expressions for those who really wanted to get specific about the selection of programs.

Something to think about for the future anyway. Maybe I will dig out my old software, create a list of ideas, and start a new thread on the topic. Not right now though. I don't even know if I can get that old Windows XP software working again!

Oh, and I thought the icons might have had different colours in the past. I rarely use once off recordings, and even more rarely look at the icons. I will now that I know though.

[Yaobing]

For a start, I am going to bring in the option to record by channel and time, i.e. removing the direct association with the program.  That will solve the problem of a program air time being shifted slightly.  Currently we offer channel and time based recording only if there are no programs associated with a channel.  This will not solve the problem if the program time shifts significantly.

[kstuart]

Thanks in advance for adding "manual timers" (recording by channel date and time) for one-time recordings.

There is one other situation that I just encountered, which is recording a program by name not currently in the Listings.

Currently, in order to do that, you have to arbitrarily select some program in the Listings, and then change the name of the Program being searched to the actual one you want to record (when it appears in the Listings in a few weeks).

The one problem with that is that MC20 does not change the Recording Rule name - even though one has edited the Program Name search field, it still lists the Recording Rule by the original program selected in the Listings.  So one cannot tell at a glance what the Recording Rules are going to record because they do not reflect the actual search.

If the Recording Rule name can be automatically changed to reflect the actual Program Name being searched, that would be helpful.   Thanks!