Topic: Steinberg (or any audio interface) and 192khz ASIO input (Read 12017 times)

jdubs · « **on:** July 27, 2015, 06:56:51 pm »

Hey Guys

Hoping someone here can help me. Looking to convert vinyl at 24 / 192 with my Steinberg and send it via ASIO through JRiver and then right back out of the Steinberg. The ASIO Line-in section only goes up to 96khz via the drop-down menu. Is that correct?

If so, why the limitation?

Thanks,
Jim

mojave · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2015, 07:05:47 pm »

It look like you want to play the vinyl live. I don't think that will work on the Steinberg since it doesn't have a multi-client driver. In other words it can't is the inputs and outputs simultaneously in JRiver. Have you tried it first at 24/96kHz?

It is possible that there was too much latency involved with 192 and the ASIO Line-in or that there weren't too many audio devices supporting 192 kHz on the line in when JRiver developed the ASIO Line-in.

You might consider making digital copies of the records instead and then managing the files like any other in JRiver. There is a guide at Computer Audiophile for converting analog to digital.

jdubs · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2015, 07:25:08 pm »

Quote from: mojave on July 27, 2015, 07:05:47 pm

It look like you want to play the vinyl live. I don't think that will work on the Steinberg since it doesn't have a multi-client driver. In other words it can't is the inputs and outputs simultaneously in JRiver. Have you tried it first at 24/96kHz?

It is possible that there was too much latency involved with 192 and the ASIO Line-in or that there weren't too many audio devices supporting 192 kHz on the line in when JRiver developed the ASIO Line-in.

You might consider making digital copies of the records instead and then managing the files like any other in JRiver. There is a guide at Computer Audiophile for converting analog to digital.

Thanks mojave. This is what I'm messing with:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?17993-Digitally-Enhanced-Vinyl-Poll

Inputs will be the 2x of the mic inputs on the Steinberg. I'm very confident the hardware is capable as I know the guys using Pure Vinyl do it all the time with similar audio interfaces:

http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/

http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl_support_ttc.html

But, yeah, real-time vinyl playback is what I'm after. RIAA correction via convolution.

-Jim

dallasjustice · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2015, 08:44:58 pm »

Michael,

There's no multi-client needed to "stream" vinyl. I've done it using only JRiver. I set the ASIO line in to my lynx hilo and set the output of jriver to the hilo as well. Audiolense filters in the convolution can do all of the rest. The "enhanced RIAA" filter generated in AL is very nice! Vinyl sounds very cool in JRiver.

dallasjustice · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2015, 08:48:34 pm »

Michael,
Having said the forgoing, I do think it will be necessary to have a multi-client ASIO capable device to "stream" vinyl at 192khz. Since ASIO line in is at most 96khz, I could instead use the VB cable ASIO Bridge. I could setup the input for hilo at 192khz and the output to JRiver ASIO. I do believe that would work at 192khz. Of course, that would be two different apps using Hilo ASIO at the same time, which requires multi-client capable ASIO. Lynx: "You can do it!"

dallasjustice · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2015, 09:02:20 pm »

Over the years, many folks have suggested different features JRiver could offer to help with vinyl playback. I know it sounds crazy to play vinyl back via jriver, especially "live." But there's a lot of merit to digital RIAA, not to mention all of the awesome DSP one could do using the convolution engine with vinyl. It's also a PITA to edit digital files and do all that metadata. I don't want any part of that. Then there's the "ritual."

I would be willing to bet that if jriver setup a "live" vinyl rig playing via jriver with jriver doing the RIAA and other DSP (eg. acourate or audiolense filters) at RMAF this year, there would be a lot of folks checkin jriver out. Vinyl is popular.

Michael.

mojave · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2015, 09:26:08 pm »

Quote from: dallasjustice on July 27, 2015, 08:44:58 pm

Michael,

There's no multi-client needed to "stream" vinyl. I've done it using only JRiver. I set the ASIO line in to my lynx hilo and set the output of jriver to the hilo as well. Audiolense filters in the convolution can do all of the rest. The "enhanced RIAA" filter generated in AL is very nice! Vinyl sounds very cool in JRiver.

The Lynx Hilo driver is multi-client, which is why it works.

Multi-client means the ASIO driver won't lock the device to the first program when any channels are in use. The process of using the ASIO line-in and the ASIO out with JRiver is basically two program instances using the device at once (even though it is only one program). None of the other Lynx products, unless maybe the newest PCIe cards, have a multi-client ASIO driver. Some of the Lynx literature alludes to multi-client capability, but that is only when using WDM for some outputs and ASIO for other outputs. I couldn't get that to work very well, though.

dallasjustice · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2015, 09:39:15 pm »

Quote from: mojave on July 27, 2015, 09:26:08 pm

The Lynx Hilo driver is multi-client, which is why it works.

Multi-client means the ASIO driver won't lock the device to the first program when any channels are in use. The process of using the ASIO line-in and the ASIO out with JRiver is basically two program instances using the device at once (even though it is only one program). None of the other Lynx products, unless maybe the newest PCIe cards, have a multi-client ASIO driver. Some of the Lynx literature alludes to multi-client capability, but that is only when using WDM for some outputs and ASIO for other outputs. I couldn't get that to work very well, though.

I really don't know about the Steinberg. I know you have much more experience. There is a multi client work around Steinberg offers but I don't know whether it works. Also, I am not convinced using the ASIO line in is really multi client. How would this be different than using REW to measure a logsweep played over the same Asio device as the sweep? The way I understand it, multi-client is when multiple applications contemporaneously use the same ASIO device

mattkhan · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2015, 03:27:30 am »

Quote from: dallasjustice on July 27, 2015, 09:39:15 pm

I really don't know about the Steinberg. I know you have much more experience. There is a multi client work around Steinberg offers but I don't know whether it works. Also, I am not convinced using the ASIO line in is really multi client. How would this be different than using REW to measure a logsweep played over the same Asio device as the sweep? The way I understand it, multi-client is when multiple applications contemporaneously use the same ASIO device

I don't understand your example. REW to jriver line in is a multi client use case, there are 2 apps involved. REW using the same asio device for input and output is not, there is 1 app talking to the driver.

pschelbert · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2015, 09:45:23 am »

Hi

it must be an issue with your Steinberg hardware.
JRiver can do it.
I do vinyl, cassete recording while I am listening to vinyl, cassete, and playing in JRiver digital files.
My hardware is an RME Fireface UFX, with ASIO driver in use.
I can use even two different recording software: cooledit and soundforge at the same time!

Input can be at different samlel rates and resolutions (24bit, 16bit..).
Output of the RME must be at a single sample rate. JRiver can convert however.

There is no limitation all analog, digital inputs and outputs work simultaniously

jdubs · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2015, 09:53:07 am »

Quote from: mattkhan on July 28, 2015, 03:27:30 am

I don't understand your example. REW to jriver line in is a multi client use case, there are 2 apps involved. REW using the same asio device for input and output is not, there is 1 app talking to the driver.

So, it seems that when you select the same device on the ASIO input side as you are using on the output side, two instances of JRiver are then open.

But, when you select the same device in REW (or Audiolense for that mater) on the ASIO input and output side, only one instance of that program is open.

Is it possible to have only one instance of JRiver open for input and output on the same ASIO device?

Also, why limit the ASIO line-in to 96khz?

-Jim

pschelbert · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2015, 04:15:06 pm »

when I run the above I have open:

1xJriver
1x Cooledit
1xSoundforge

All three programs can access the RME at the same time for Input and output.

How it works behind the scene , I do not know, however it works flawlessly...

mattkhan · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2015, 04:28:02 pm »

Quote from: jdubs on July 28, 2015, 09:53:07 am

So, it seems that when you select the same device on the ASIO input side as you are using on the output side, two instances of JRiver are then open.

But, when you select the same device in REW (or Audiolense for that mater) on the ASIO input and output side, only one instance of that program is open.

Is it possible to have only one instance of JRiver open for input and output on the same ASIO device?

it's certainly possible that jriver and rew/audiolense use the driver differently, it might even be that jriver uses different processes for the 2 sides hence why it appears as 2 different "apps" to the driver. If this is the case then I would think it will be non trivial to fix from the jriver end. I am unfamiliar with ASIO driver programming though so best to get an answer from the jriver devs.

@pschelbert I have an rme device (ff800) that is apparently multiclient capable but fails in this use case, I have to use the steinberg multiclient here but it is still v sensitive to the config settings (sensitive enough that I try to avoid using it). It's open to question as to whether this is a driver issue or an app issue.

pschelbert · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2015, 05:09:10 pm »

@mattkahn:

I use the latest drivers and USB to conncect. May be there is a significant difference in the models of RME. ff800 is older

jdubs · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2015, 11:07:58 pm »

Quote from: mattkhan on July 28, 2015, 04:28:02 pm

it's certainly possible that jriver and rew/audiolense use the driver differently, it might even be that jriver uses different processes for the 2 sides hence why it appears as 2 different "apps" to the driver. If this is the case then I would think it will be non trivial to fix from the jriver end. I am unfamiliar with ASIO driver programming though so best to get an answer from the jriver devs.

Hopefully a dev can chime in here - this would be an awesome solution.

-Jim

jdubs · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2015, 09:27:53 am »

Bump!

jdubs · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2015, 12:03:57 pm »

Bump! Is it a hard thing to implement?

-Jim

dallasjustice · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2015, 12:49:24 pm »

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18268-Streaming-Vinyl

dallasjustice · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2015, 01:31:14 pm »

Matt, Jim or anybody at JRiver,

There are several small "fixes" which could make jriver much more vinyl friendly. Here's my list:

1. Include an RIAA curve in DSP.
2. Make ASIO line in and ASIO out all one device, instead of two separate devices. This would allow those who don't have a multi-client DAC/ADC to "stream vinyl" with JRiver.
3. Those who "stream vinyl" will be using multiple zones. eg. RIAA zone and Digital zone. It is very difficult to switch between zones the way JRiver works right now. If any zone has an asio line-in activated, the other zone won't be able to play music. So, I have to get off my butt and turn the Asio line-in off at my computer. And then I can switch to my digital zone.
4. Enable higher sample rates for ASIO line in. Some ADC's work better at higher sample rates.

I really think it would be cool if JRiver were more accessible to folks who also love vinyl. Please help us out!!

Michael.

jdubs · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2015, 10:30:17 pm »

Bump!

Matt · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2015, 07:27:08 am »

Quote from: dallasjustice on August 11, 2015, 01:31:14 pm

4. Enable higher sample rates for ASIO line in. Some ADC's work better at higher sample rates.

Coming next build of MC21:
NEW: Added the choices 176.4 khz and 192 khz to the configure ASIO Line-In dialog.

dallasjustice · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2015, 07:34:12 am »

Quote from: Matt on August 17, 2015, 07:27:08 am

Coming next build of MC21:
NEW: Added the choices 176.4 khz and 192 khz to the configure ASIO Line-In dialog.

Thanks Matt! I take back all the bad things I said about you. :-)

jdubs · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2015, 06:49:51 pm »

Quote from: Matt on August 17, 2015, 07:27:08 am

Coming next build of MC21:
NEW: Added the choices 176.4 khz and 192 khz to the configure ASIO Line-In dialog.

Awesome news!!! Thank you, Matt!

-Jim

pschelbert · « **Reply #23 on:** August 19, 2015, 02:39:21 pm »

The inclusion of RIAA could be much easier for JRiver.
As VST is working great and its a snap to activate, an easy solution is to use an RIAA VST, for example: http://www.vacuumsound.de/plugins.html
I have no idea if this VST is good and if there exist other RIAA VST, may be somebody knows.

Using VST, JRiver would need to program nothing and you get what you look for.

Quote from: dallasjustice on August 11, 2015, 01:31:14 pm

Matt, Jim or anybody at JRiver,

There are several small "fixes" which could make jriver much more vinyl friendly. Here's my list:

1. Include an RIAA curve in DSP.
2. Make ASIO line in and ASIO out all one device, instead of two separate devices. This would allow those who don't have a multi-client DAC/ADC to "stream vinyl" with JRiver.
3. Those who "stream vinyl" will be using multiple zones. eg. RIAA zone and Digital zone. It is very difficult to switch between zones the way JRiver works right now. If any zone has an asio line-in activated, the other zone won't be able to play music. So, I have to get off my butt and turn the Asio line-in off at my computer. And then I can switch to my digital zone.
4. Enable higher sample rates for ASIO line in. Some ADC's work better at higher sample rates.

I really think it would be cool if JRiver were more accessible to folks who also love vinyl. Please help us out!!

Michael.

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Author Topic: Steinberg (or any audio interface) and 192khz ASIO input (Read 12017 times)