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[rockitdoc]

Hi,
I have a 'player' zone (main) and two other zones for a Sonos CONNECT and PLAY:1.  They all play, but will not remain sync-ed.  Once I get them sync-ed, they un-sync.  Is this to be expected?

Thanks, in advance.
S

[blgentry]

Doc and I have had a little bit of interaction on this already.  I have very little expertise on the matter, so I directed him to this forum for some better help.  Here's the relevant part of the earlier thread for reference:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=99393.msg688244#msg688244

Brian.

[mwillems]

This is a long-standing issue/area of exploration.  Some threads that might be of interest:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90659.msg661396#msg661396
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95965.0
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95760.0

The basic issue is that JRiver uses DLNA to control remote zones.  This makes sync hard because: 1) DLNA device implementations do not necessarily support synchronized playback in a robust way and 2) Different DACs have different clock recovery mechanisms, which can make sync hard to establish/predict.  JRiver is exploring ways to improve this behavior.

For now, the last link I offered above is a working work-around solution using plugin software called "Tuneblade." To my knowledge that's the only current solution that allows reliable syncing of local and remote zones using MC.

Hope this helps!

[blgentry]

Doc is on a Mac (like me).  So the Tuneblade solution, while attractive, isn't an option.

Is the long and the short of this simply that MC can't do synced playback with most DLNA devices?  I'm not trying to be rude or negative in any way.  Just trying to cut straight to the answer.

Thanks Mwilliems.

Brian.

[mwillems]

Doc is on a Mac (like me).  So the Tuneblade solution, while attractive, isn't an option.

I know nothing whatsoever about macs, but my understanding was that AirPlay is what makes the whole tuneblade thing work (it's just an Airplay server for Windows).  Also AirFoil (the alternative to tuneblade mentioned in that thread) appears to run on Macs.  

And (forgive my ignorance) but don't Apple products have native AirPlay support?  My understanding was that the Tuneblade/Airfoil solution was just a way to "export" the Airplay architecture to non-macs.  I don't actually know the ins and outs, but I'm pretty sure one of the fellows in that thread (6233638) was using a variation on that solution in a primarily Mac ecosystem.  He had a long post about some of it in this thread (which has lots of info about using Airplay with MC): http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90712.msg658873#msg658873

But I'm just speaking from a recollection of various forum threads on the issue;  I haven't personally used a Mac since 1994  

Is the long and the short of this simply that MC can't do synced playback with most DLNA devices?  I'm not trying to be rude or negative in any way.  Just trying to cut straight to the answer.

It depends on how tightly you define "sync," but if you mean "synced so closely that one can't tell there are two sources playing when equidistant between them" than MC can't currently do that.  In my experience MC is capable of syncing two well-behaved Clients well enough for playback in separate rooms (although there will be some echo when passing between the rooms).  

At the moment MC can't (by itself) reliably do echo-free synced playback to multiple output devices of any kind.  Some folks have had better success than others, and folks have tried different external solutions (I've tried a few myself, like trying to use pulseaudio's RTP protocol on Linux). I've not seen any wireless solutions that worked for everyone who tried them other than airplay/airfoil/tuneblade.

In fact, just syncing two soundcards on the same PC with JRiver isn't necessarily a "sure thing" (I can often get it close, but it doesn't stay close unless I have a word-clock/ADAT connection).  If you search the forums for "whole house audio" you'll find a lot of threads threshing out the sync issues.

If you want tight multi-room sync with JRiver at the moment you have two options:

1) Have a single multichannel soundcard wired to every speaker in your house, or
2) Tuneblade/Airfoil/etc.

I'm not aware of another "certain" way to do it.  It's on the dev's radar for sure, and there have been some lengthy and technical discussions of possible solutions.  I'm hopeful that there will eventually be a solution, but I don't know if it's on the roadmap for MC 21.

It's not a make or break issue for me as the sync (especially with other MC DLNA clients) is (as I said above) usually good enough for playback in separate rooms.  There's enough drift to create an echo at transition points, but not enough that it's super obvious once you're actually in a room.  It's nowhere near tight enough for playback on two systems in the same room.  But this is with clients running MC (in my case raspberry pi's, and a NUC); my results with non-MC DLNA devices have been mixed (some work that well, others don't).  

It's not perfect, but is good enough for parties (or at least the kind of parties I throw).  YMMV, depending on the devices you're trying to sync (and your party guests)

[blgentry]

MW:  Thanks for all the additional info.  Looks like Mr. 622... is using TuneBlade now (according to the forum posting).

This has led me to do a little more research and I've learned a few things.

Brian.

[blgentry]

Doc,

In researching this, I got an interesting idea.  On your computer, what do you use for audio output?  The built in headphone output?  A DAC?  Something else?  I ask because Sonos itself does audio sync from Sonos device to Sonos device.  So, if you can get the audio to one Sonos box, you can tell the other box to play that same audio.  That will guarantee that at least both of the Sonos boxes are in sync.

There's another feature that might make this easier:  The Sonos Connect has an AUX analog input.  So if your computer, or your DAC, is close to the Connect, you can route it's analog audio to the AUX input of the Connect.  Then you tell the Connect to play from the AUX input. Finally, you tell the PLAY1 to use the audio from the Connect zone.  Then they should all be in sync.

Not sure if this will solve your problem or not; you'd have to try it out and see.

Brian.

[csimon]

I ask because Sonos itself does audio sync from Sonos device to Sonos device.  So, if you can get the audio to one Sonos box, you can tell the other box to play that same audio. 

It is possible to do this with Allplay devices so should be possible with Sonos too. For example, the Panasonic SH-ALL1C AllPlay receiver is also a DLNA renderer so you can DLNA music to one of them and then use an AllPlay app to group together any number of other AllPlay devices and they all play together in sync. I think their Allplay hifi also has an Aux input so might be able to do it that way too. The caveat with the Panasonic devices in particular is that the DLNA renderer cannot do gapless and its not possible to use Seek with it, only play, pause, stop, next and previous.

(AllPlay is a sync protocol from Qualcomm that is more open than Sonos, Squeeze et al in that any manufacturer can incorporate it. It's been adopted by various manufacturers in powered speakers, hi-fi systems and standalone "bridges" like the SH-ALL1C.)