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[Yaobing]

Is your F: drive set to allow everyone (not just administrators) full control?

[DocLotus]

Is your F: drive set to allow everyone (not just administrators) full control?

It was not.  I just changed it to allow Everyone to share with Full control.

How did that happen?

[JimH]

The drives are new WD 2 TB. Have had no problems with them in fact use them as backup drives with Macrium Reflect Backup

Please explain more.  It could be what we're looking for.

[DocLotus]

Please explain more.  It could be what we're looking for.

I have 4 HD's...
1: SSD... Drive C... Windows & programs (back up as drive image TO either E or F as need).
2: SSD... Drive D... Docs, Images, Audio/Video (back up folders TO either E or F as need).
3: WD 2 TB Green HD... Drive E... Back up C or D TO this drive as need.
4: WD 2 TB Green HD... Drive F... Back up C or D TO this drive as need.

[JimH]

But what is the backup software doing.  It could be controlling the disks in a way that causes problems.

[DocLotus]

But what is the backup software doing.  It could be controlling the disks in a way that causes problems.

It simply puts individual files on the root.

[DocLotus]

I can delete ALL current recordings if that would help? Maybe that would give us a "clean start"?

After that I could re-establish the new TV Recordings on SSD drive D as a test.

What do you think?

[JimH]

Why not.  You never know what you might learn.

[DocLotus]

OK, I'll do it.

Give me a few days to set it all up & allow for the TV recordings to build and see if they are removed after one day.

This is exciting

[DocLotus]

Meanwhile, I'll send Yaobing my last Log as the computer has been running for almost 8 hours now & he wanted to look at it.

[JimH]

It simply puts individual files on the root.

Is it possible that the files you're seeing were put there by the backup software?

[DocLotus]

Is it possible that the files you're seeing were put there by the backup software?

Well, yes the backup files such as "C Image-Sam 256 SSD6-00-00.mrimg" on the root only of drive F but not any of the TV Recordings under "F:\Video\JRiver\TV Recording"; they were all added by MC (saw them being added over time as TV was being recorded).

[Yaobing]

Can the backup software take control of the drive and prevent MC from deleting files?

[DocLotus]

Can the backup software take control of the drive and prevent MC from deleting files?

Don't think so as I used to have MS WMC TV recordings on the same drive & never had any problems with WMC deleting old out dated TV Recordings.

But... this is interesting, I just looked at the old, what I always thought was the MS WMC TV Recordings folder on drive "F:\Recorded TV" & found a bunch of new files with today's date on them. I just checked WMC's TV Recording settings & it shows "Nothing Recorded" as it has been saying ever since I started using MC TV.

[DocLotus]

But... this is interesting, I just looked at the old, what I always thought was the MS WMC TV Recordings folder on drive "F:\Recorded TV" & found a bunch of new files with today's date on them. I just checked WMC's TV Recording settings & it shows "Nothing Recorded" as it has been saying ever since I started using MC TV.

Just found out what those files are for; they are Temp files created every time MS WMC is opened. I just opened WMC & quickly exited it & two new files were added to the "F:\Recorded TV" folder.

Doubt if they are causing any problems but what do you think?

Are there any known problems still having WMC installed (but not used or recorded) concerning MC TV?  Yaobing had previously said in another thread there should be no problems with having WMC still installed as long as the TV Recording was turned off (which mine is). I think that was to keep all TV tuners free for MC TV use.

[Yaobing]

Your latest logs shows that four recordings were deleted, all of them were recorded on the day before (sept 30).

Code: [Select]

11452891: 5844: TV: CTVTunerHelper::CleanupPrograms: Checking 82 recorded programs for deletion
11452891: 5844: TV: CTVTunerHelper::CleanupPrograms: 0 recordings found to have episode based deletion attribute
11452891: 5844: TV: CTVTunerHelper::CleanupPrograms: 4 recordings to be deleted due to their age
11452891: 5844: TV: CTVTunerHelper::CleanupPrograms: Found 4 programs to delete

The deleted files are

The Closer - S2005E02 - About Face
The Best of the Boston Pops 2015-09-30
The Best of the Boston Pops 2015-09-30
KPRC Channel 2 News at 10PM 2015-09-30

The log only lasted a little over 3 hours, from 7:29 pm to 10:40 pm, during which MC was busy recording shows.  No quiet time, and not long enough for cleanup timer to go off anyway.  So no clean up until you closed MC.

[DocLotus]

The log only lasted a little over 3 hours, from 7:29 pm to 10:40 pm, during which MC was busy recording shows.  No quiet time, and not long enough for cleanup timer to go off anyway.  So no clean up until you closed MC.

Interesting. MC ran for over 8 hours non stop. I Exited MC, waited a couple of minutes & re-loaded MC & ran the Log to send to you. I suspect what happened is the Log may not have been turned on all the time. I do recall turning it off a day or so ago & must have turned it back on later (my bad); sorry .

That brings up a question about logging. Does running the Log have much effect on MC performance?  Reason I ask is sometimes TV channel changing runs very smooth & fast while other times it is sluggish & wants to hang on various channels. Was wondering if logging can be a tripping point in performance?

[Yaobing]

Interesting. MC ran for over 8 hours non stop. I Exited MC, waited a couple of minutes & re-loaded MC & ran the Log to send to you. I suspect what happened is the Log may not have been turned on all the time. I do recall turning it off a day or so ago & must have turned it back on later (my bad); sorry .

It would not be something done a day or so ago.  If you did it, it would have to be sometime yesterday afternoon.  You did send in a log early afternoon.

That brings up a question about logging. Does running the Log have much effect on MC performance?  Reason I ask is sometimes TV channel changing runs very smooth & fast while other times it is sluggish & wants to hang on various channels. Was wondering if logging can be a tripping point in performance?

In general it depends on how fast your computer is.  I tend to think it should not affect channel changing.

[DocLotus]

Can the backup software take control of the drive and prevent MC from deleting files?

Interesting you should ask that.

Have used Macrium Reflect for many years & it has always been well behaved (no TSR's running, no taking over other programs, no adding to Explorer or adding tabs to various Windows dialogs & screens or nothing in the Scheduler, although it does have that as an option). In fact I run it manually from some shortcuts that I developed. So it does not even run by itself, it requires me to actually do a back up which I run manually each week. SEE: attached JPEG of backup shortcuts.

HOWEVER... I also have a second backup program that throws all that good stuff to the wind... Acronis True Image Backup 2015. Now... IT does take over a LOT...

1: Adds tabs to various dialogs & screens.
2: Runs in the Scheduler.
3: May run as a TSR (not shure about that).
4: Does backups automatically without my intervention.

So, it MAY be the culprit.

Just to make sure it is not causing the problem I used Revo Uninstaller to completely uninstall Acronis, removed all the Acronis backup files on drive F, Moved all the Macrium Reflect Backup files to drive E, ran Wise Register Cleaner, CCleaner, & Wise Registry Defrag. I will delete all the TV Recordings on drive F, will use Windows Disk Manager to delete the drive F partition, recreate a new partition & format the drive. I will then delete the TV recordings in MC TV so we can start with a clean slate & a clean drive.

Give me a day or two to get this all done & I'll report back with the results.

Cheers

[CountryBumkin]

I just setup a couple of subscriptions to test with. I'll report back in a couple of days if I see any of the same problems.

I setup a subscription to "delete after 1 day", another to "delete after 4 days", and one subscription to "keep at most 3 episodes".

Is it possible that the folder where the TV shows/recordings are stored is "Read-Write only".
I just checked the "default" Recording folder on my testing computer and it says the folder/files where my recordings go is "Read Only". However that didn't stop me from deleting a file just now so I don't know if this means anything.

UPDATE: I ran/made recordings over the past week to test MC's delete function. I had NO issues whatsoever. All of the recordings described above, recorded successfully, and deleted as they were supposed to.

Sorry - it appears that there is no "bug" in the MC programming, so it must be something specific to your computer Doc.

[DocLotus]

Is it possible that the folder where the TV shows/recordings are stored is "Read-Write only".
I just checked the "default" Recording folder on my testing computer and it says the folder/files where my recordings go is "Read Only". However that didn't stop me from deleting a file just now so I don't know if this means anything.

Yes, mine is the same. I too can manually delete the files at will. I think we discussed this before (if my memory serves me ). I've changed mine to full access but it almost immediately reverts back to Read Only. The old folder on the same drive where I used to store MS WMC TV recordings is the same way so it seems to be normal for these files/folders. The drive itself on all other folders including the Root shows Full Access.

UPDATE: I ran made recordings over the past week to test MC's delete function. I had NO issues whatsoever. All of the recordings described above, recorded successfully, and deleted as they were supposed to.

Sorry - it appears that there is no "bug" in the MC programming, so it must be something specific to your computer Doc.

I'm beginning to agree that it may indeed be something strange in my computer (that is why I'm moving/deleting files & deleting the partition & re-formatting the drive so I can get a freah start on TV Recordings)

I should have all that done this afternoon & in a couple of days (after MC adds some TV Recordings to the newly formatted drive) we will know if it resolves the problem... or not.

[DocLotus]

IT'S DONE

1: All Macrium Reflect backup files (some 1200 GB of them) moved from drive F to E.
2: All current TV Recordings deleted from drive F.
3: All TV Recording listed in MC deleted.
4: Windows Disk Management... deleted drive F partition.
5: Windows Disk Management... created new single Basic disk partition for drive F.
6: Windows Disk Management... formatted drive F.
7: Windows Disk Management AND disk F Properties... made sure all SHARING was turned on for drive F.
8: Windows Disk Management AND disk F Properties... made sure FULL CONTROL was turned on for all Group User Names for drive F.
9: After exiting Windows Disk Management... looked at drive F Properties to make absolutely sure all the above was still intact... IT IS
10: In MC TV Option/General I even changed the "Folder for recorder & time shifting files" name on dive F just in case there was something funky about the old name. I also shorten the path by one folder (2 folder vs. 3)

So, now we have a clean MC & a totally clean drive F with FULL CONTROL & FULL SHARING & nothing else on the drive except MC TV Recordings.

Boy-oh-boy if this doesn't work I'll be totally lost, lost, lost

[DocLotus]

Is it possible that the folder where the TV shows/recordings are stored is "Read-Write only".
I just checked the "default" Recording folder on my testing computer and it says the folder/files where my recordings go is "Read Only". However that didn't stop me from deleting a file just now so I don't know if this means anything.

As soon as MC started the very first TV Recording, the new folder "F:\J River\TV Recordings" changed from full control to Read Only. So, this seems to be totally normal.

[DocLotus]

It seems to be working.

Last night (Oct 3rd) at around 8:30 PM, I did a File\Exit from MC.  MC showed a small "Updating Database" dialog. Upon reloading MC I noticed that all the recorded programs for the previous day (Oct 2nd BEFORE the current time of 8:30 PM) were deleted as they should be. That means that all the files older then 24 hours were deleted correctly.

I still had 4 files for Oct 2nd that were not deleted as all 4 were not yet 24 hours old (8:45 PM, 9:00 PM, 9:00 PM & 11:25 PM). So, I thought I would simply wait until after 9:00 PM & File\Exit MC again & the 8:45 & 9:00 PM files would be deleted as at that time they would be more than 24 hours old. That did not work; no small "Updating Database" dialog show up.

This morning (Oct 4th) all 4 remaining files for Oct 2nd are still there.

I also noticed that my carefull setup of File Sharing was no more... it had reverted once again to non sharing... BUMMER

I've reestablished Full Control in File Sharing which seems to be (for now anyway) holding.

I've noticed that after deleting the new disk partition & formatting the drive MC TV Recordings was the ONLY folder on the drive as expected. Later last night I brought up MS WMC & quickly exited it. WMC had added a temp folder to the same drive F as MC TV Recordings are on. I'm not sure if loading WMC was what turned off the Sharing for MC TV Recordings or not. After reestablishing Full Control in File Sharing I can now view WMC & File Sharing stays at Full Control.

My questions are...
1: Can having BOTH WMC AND MC TV Recordings on the same drive cause problems?
2: Does 24 hours (or 8 hours) have to pass before doing a File\Exit & reloading of MC will delete the old TV Recordings? As it is now I can File\Exit & reload MC & the little "Updating Database" dialog does not show up & the remaining 4 TV Recordings for Oct 2nd are NOT getting deleted.
3: Can the clean up process be improved upon to run EVERY TIME MC is File\Exited & reloaded? This would allow the user to run the cleanup process at will (which does not seem to be currently doable)?

[Yaobing]

WMC could be the culprit.  Even if you do not run WMC manually, it has a service that runs automatically.

You can exit MC at any time.  Any time you exit MC, it checks to see if there are any recorded shows that need to be deleted.  It is has not been 24 hours (or what ever number of days) since a recording was recorded, it will not be deleted.  In other words, it deletes files are are due to be deleted, not others.

[DocLotus]

I still had 4 files for Oct 2nd that were not deleted as all 4 were not yet 24 hours old (8:45 PM, 9:00 PM, 9:00 PM & 11:25 PM). So, I thought I would simply wait until after 9:00 PM & File\Exit MC again & the 8:45 & 9:00 PM files would be deleted as at that time they would be more than 24 hours old. That did not work; no small "Updating Database" dialog show up.

This morning (Oct 4th) all 4 remaining files for Oct 2nd are still there.

So why are the 4 remaining files for the Oct 2nd not deleted?

Also, can this be implemented in a future build?

3: Can the clean up process be improved upon to run EVERY TIME MC is File\Exited & reloaded (without waiting for the 8 hour timer)? This would allow the user to run the cleanup process at will (which does not seem to be currently doable)?

[DocLotus]

WMC could be the culprit.  Even if you do not run WMC manually, it has a server that runs automatically.ted, not others.

Yes... that's been bothering me for a long time.

I'm currently in the process of removing MS WMC, via upgrading to Windows 10; sort of a "Kill two birds with one stone" (so to speak).

[Yaobing]

Also, can this be implemented in a future build?

3: Can the clean up process be improved upon to run EVERY TIME MC is File\Exited & reloaded (without waiting for the 8 hour timer)? This would allow the user to run the cleanup process at will (which does not seem to be currently doable)?

It is already done, when MC is being closed.  It will not do anything when MC is reloaded, until 8 hours later.  The user can do clean up at will simply by closing MC.

[DocLotus]

It is already done, when MC is being closed.  It will not do anything when MC is reloaded, until 8 hours later.

I'm confused (as usual ) . Doesn't that mean the user has to wait 8 hours before the cleanup actually happens?

The user can do clean up at will simply by closing MC.

At will, right now & not in 8 hours? That's what I'm wanting & does not seem to be currently implemented.

[RoderickGI]

It is simple Doc.

1. Every time you close MC, the cleanup is initiated. If MC isn't actually cleaning up recorded TV program files when you close it, something else is wrong. Rule deleted or no rule matches, sufficient time hasn't passed, the recorded program file has been moved to a new location, MC can't delete the file due to OS restrictions, firewall is interfering, etc.

2. Whenever you start MC, eight hours has to pass before a cleanup is attempted. All other conditions also need to be met before a cleanup will actually run.

3. If MC is left on all the time, it will wait eight hours after the last cleanup before it attempts another one. All other conditions also need to be met before a cleanup will actually run.

The other conditions are no music playing, no tuner in use, etc. that have been mentioned previously. That is, MC must have some "quiet time" to initiate a cleanup.

From previous discussions, my understanding is also that if MC is due to do a cleanup, as eight hours have passed, but it can't due to one of the other conditions not being met, such as a tuner in use, then MC will wait until there is quiet time, and do the cleanup then. For example, if eight hours pass, but a TV channel is playing until ten hours are up, MC will do the cleanup when the TV channel is stopped, and the other criteria are met. This is why I always press the stop button in MC at the end of the day, rather than just turn off the receiver/amplifier, TV, etc. so MC isn't playing something that can't be heard.

Is all the above correct Yaobing? Particularly the comment on moving recorded files? I don't know if that actually stops a cleanup of the program.

[DocLotus]

It is simple Doc.

1. Every time you close MC, the cleanup is initiated. If MC isn't actually cleaning up recorded TV program files when you close it, something else is wrong. Rule deleted or no rule matches, sufficient time hasn't passed, the recorded program file has been moved to a new location, MC can't delete the file due to OS restrictions, firewall is interfering, etc.

Will it do a manual cleanup if 8 hours has not passed? In other words will the clean up work if I...
Just booted the PC, loaded MC, File\Exit MC, re-load MC to start the cleanup manually? This is of course assuming that at least 24 hours have passed making the TV Recording eligible for cleanup.

2. Whenever you start MC, eight hours has to pass before a cleanup is attempted. All other conditions also need to be met before a cleanup will actually run.

Understood... an automatic clean up attempt (with no tuners in use) & not a manual File\Exit, reload MC.

3. If MC is left on all the time, it will wait eight hours after the last cleanup before it attempts another one. All other conditions also need to be met before a cleanup will actually run.

Understood... an automatic clean up attempt (with no tuners in use) & not a manual File\Exit, reload MC.

The other conditions are no music playing, no tuner in use, etc. that have been mentioned previously. That is, MC must have some "quiet time" to initiate a cleanup.

Understood... an automatic clean up attempt (with no tuners in use) & not a manual File\Exit, reload MC.

From previous discussions, my understanding is also that if MC is due to do a cleanup, as eight hours have passed, but it can't due to one of the other conditions not being met, such as a tuner in use, then MC will wait until there is quiet time, and do the cleanup then. For example, if eight hours pass, but a TV channel is playing until ten hours are up, MC will do the cleanup when the TV channel is stopped, and the other criteria are met. This is why I always press the stop button in MC at the end of the day, rather than just turn off the receiver/amplifier, TV, etc. so MC isn't playing something that can't be heard.

Understood... an automatic clean up attempt (with no tuners in use) & not a manual File\Exit, reload MC.

[RoderickGI]

Will it do a manual cleanup if 8 hours has not passed? In other words will the clean up work if I...
Just booted the PC, loaded MC, File\Exit MC, re-load MC to start the cleanup manually? This is of course assuming that at least 24 hours have passed making the TV Recording eligible for cleanup.

Every time you close MC, the cleanup will be initiated.

The cleanup doesn't happen when you re-load MC. It happens when you close it. You click File/Exit, the MC User Interface closes, but in the background it is doing the cleanup. You may have noticed that if you close MC and then immediately start it, something goes wrong because MC is still running, and you see the message in the attached image.

That is because when MC closes, it does its cleanup process, and other stuff, like saving the current state if it hasn't been saved already.

Understanding that is important. For example, if you closed MC, then immediately forced Windows to shut down without waiting for applications, or if you just shut down Windows and when it said it was waiting for MC, forced it to close, then MC would not be able to complete its cleanup. It is even possible (Yaobing?) that if a Windows shutdown is started, MC doesn't have the priority to keep Windows open until it finishes its cleanup. In which case the cleanup would be aborted. But I don't think that is the case, as I have seen Windows wait for MC before shutting down many times.

So in your case, if you Exited MC and waited a bit (30 seconds typically) then shut down Windows, MC should have completed its cleanup. However, I think that takes us back to what you were doing at the start of this thread, and programs still weren't being deleted. Something else is wrong.

[DocLotus]

Thanks; that make sense.

Now I know to simply File\Exit MC & wait a bit before reloading MC.

I think I understand the process now.

With the exception of a manual cleanup (File\Exit & wait) everything else is an automatic Cleanup attempt (providing all tuners are free, nothing is playing & 8 hours has passed since that last Cleanup & there is actually a cleanup candidate whose time has passed).

[Yaobing]

You got it.

[DocLotus]

You got it.

YIPPI... 

[DocLotus]

Since doing a Win 10 Pro clean install, TV Cleanup seems to be working correctly (so far).

I had drive F showing on screen (with Directory Opus file manager) & MC on top of the file manger. I did an MC File\Exit which closed down MC leaving the file manager (with drive F showing).  Within seconds I saw several of yesterdays files being deleted. All was good

This was with drive F reset back to defaults by a new partition & new format which reset Sharing to Not Shared & Security reset back to partial (depending on the Group or user). That is also how my other 3 drives are defaulted to.

So, to make a long story short it looks like File Sharing is NOT needed for MC to do a cleanup after all.

I'll keep my eye on it for a few days & see how it goes.

[DocLotus]

Since doing a Win 10 Pro clean install, TV Cleanup seems to be working correctly (so far).

I'll keep my eye on it for a few days & see how it goes.

That was Oct 6, it is now Oct 9.

MC stumbled a little (it failed to delete 4 recordings that were due for deletion from the 6th). It did however delete all other recordings due for deletion. I made no changes to my Recording Rules of any kind; in fact I never looked at any of them since doing the clean install of Win 10. So, all the recordings were made AND deleted with the same exact Rules (in case anyone should ask).

I just this afternoon manually deleted the 4 recordings from both the hard drive & in MC.

I Exited MC & it cleaned up all other recordings (Updating Database) correctly.

As of now, all looks good, BUT I'm not going to hold my breath until many days pass & I'm finally satisfied that the Cleanup process is indeed working (on my machine that is).

Only question is why did MC not delete the 4 old recordings? That leaves me a little uncertain as to the long-term reliability of MC Cleanup. Hopefully, my concern may be unfounded (but, as the man said... "we will see").

[RoderickGI]

Keep an eye on it. I check mine every now and then.

If/when you do find a recordings you believe should have been deleted but hasn't been, take a look at the recording rules for them and see if you can find a pattern to the settings in the rules. Maybe once off recordings, or recordings where the rules say "Do not record programs that have been recorded in the past", or something else, or a combination of settings are consistently set when deletions fail.

[DocLotus]

Keep an eye on it. I check mine every now and then.

If/when you do find a recordings you believe should have been deleted but hasn't been, take a look at the recording rules for them and see if you can find a pattern to the settings in the rules. Maybe once off recordings, or recordings where the rules say "Do not record programs that have been recorded in the past", or something else, or a combination of settings are consistently set when deletions fail.

Thanks, will do