INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 12 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: JimH on February 16, 2007, 05:58:36 pm
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We've added DVD ripping to MC12 in a build that is being tested. It isn't perfect, but it works pretty well already. You put a DVD in, press "Rip Disc" and it rips it to your PC just like it would for a CD.
That's good, but there is a catch. Officially, the DMCA law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA) that was passed a few years back makes this illegal. The law is controversial. Many people consider making a copy of a disc "Fair Use".
If we release MC with this feature, we may end up being sued by the motion picture industry. They've done it before.
I'm just looking for your opinion about what seems fair and right. We have been extremely careful about doing things legally, but at some point it can get absurd.
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Even though I voted for "Of Course" I would seriously advice against the inclusion of the dvd ripping feature in Media Center. I love Media Center too much to see it being sued by the MPAA for the inclusion of this feature. I am sure that people who are interested in backing up their dvd can find some other softwares that can do the same job well enough.
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How about hooking into DVD Decrypter so that has to be installed. Let it only rip non copy protected movies and then if you have DVD Decrypter installed, utilize its ripping. This way you can't really get in trouble. Lots of other programs use this safeguard and most people have the program if they rip DVDs. You will most likely get sued if you release standalone commercial DVD ripping capabilities in MC. Ripping non copy protected discs is fine.
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the answer is ofcourse 'ofcourse'. but i understand that it is a problem , and not only the laws in the usa can be a problem. but i dont know all the ins and outs of the laws here in germany (where i live) or holland (where my heart still is), because they are different.
one of the things i recently found out, is that the windows OEM version is not bound to hardware here in germany (like in the rest of the world?), or not always. :P
for me. i love to pay for for music or movies. own maybe 5 illegal copy cd's on 1000+ and no illegal dvd's, so when i pay i think i have the right to put it where ever i want to for personal use. and when somebody thinks different i respect that as long as he doesn't bother me with it.
i really love the way mc ripped and the possible way it could go a few version back (168?) and it maybe will go. but if i was mc, i would not no if i would take the change. i love it though if they would try.
an option would be, ofcource to sell it when finnished as an add-on. which seperates a bit from the main programm (legaly?).
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I would never make a copy of a DVD but I would use the DVD to Movie file option
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Let me start by saying that I welcome this feature. It would add functionality that I believe a media center should have.
I believe the key is, at least in Australia, as you say, fair use.
In Australia (I have no idea about other countries at all), you are legally entitled to make backups of your DVDs/CDs etc. You are also (from my understanding) able to make copies for your own use, so long as the copy is not distributed... obviously.
In short the feature cannot be illegal here, so long as it is used as a backup/storage mechanism, and not for distribution of copyrighted material. As you say, the DMCA might be a bit of a bugger over there. It all comes down to the finite legal bulldust that media companies use to maximise their sales. If you can possibly find a way to negotiate your way safely through the minefield, I say go for it.
Could options involve:
- Make the functionality plugin based - so you could pull it / disable it quickly if required
- Tie the ripped copy to the reg-key of MC - ie encrypt the the rip using MC's registration key as the encryption key. At least this way the files are usable througout a household.
Hope you figure it out.
Cheers,
C.
(ps hungover so apologies for a random ramble)
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How about hooking into DVD Decrypter so that has to be installed. Let it only rip non copy protected movies and then if you have DVD Decrypter installed, utilize its ripping. This way you can't really get in trouble. Lots of other programs use this safeguard and most people have the program if they rip DVDs. You will most likely get sued if you release standalone commercial DVD ripping capabilities in MC. Ripping non copy protected discs is fine.
i use clone dvd. which also does not rip copy protected movies. then there is this other programm, which in some ways seems to be made by an other comp, but i think is made by the same guy, any dvd, which takes away the copy protection (and region stuff etc). dont know, just my own toughts without lookin into it, so i could be wrong.
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DVD ripping is not wrong (IMO), but I must agree with escaflo. The planet would be a much drearier place without MC, or the daily prospect of JimH shaking his fist at the world. The people legally empowered to "protect" these copyrights are doing so without a shred of proportion or common sense, and their reach is only limited by their own drug-enduced lethargy. Give them a reason to notice you, and they will gladly demonstrate that the U.S. Tort Bar is the one place in America where the rich and powerful really are systematically entitled to greater priviledge. I would not recommend even Mother Theresa cross paths with these underwear-sniffers.
I think that the DVD rip capability is a great feature that will prove to be an attention-getter, both from a marketing perspective and a legal one. Yes, there are other DVD rip options out there already, but none of them are "mainstream" (and none of them are hosted on U.S.-based web sites, AFAIK). I think a mainstream media program having this kind of capability will generate a lot of buzz, if that's your goal. But I'm not so sure a simple C&D letter with an opportunity to comply will be their response.
Although, if you are sure that will be their response, and you have some cash on hand at least to get to first base, it might be worth a go. But go carefully. And if buzz is your goal, for God's sake follow up. Flog it for all it's worth.
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Thanks. Buzz isn't our goal. Reasonable access to media you've bought is the goal. Staying out from under the foot of godzilla would also be good.
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DVD ripping is not a feature that I would expect or ever request MC to provide. My opinion would be to let other companies bear the headaches that come with providing that type of software, and instead keep focused on improving the Theater View 10ft functionality as well as figuring out how to implement a tv guide. Doing that would would impress me, the customer, more than anything.
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"Of Course".
Except that it's illegal.
I would expect MC to rip DVDs just like it rips CDs. Except that since it's illegal, I wouldn't expect JRiver to fight that battle.
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I think lawsuits and root-kits are a better way to increase revenue than embracing computers. Computers are scary. And they're probably only a fad. The fondue pots of this generation.
On the other hand, martyr is just a fancy word for dead.
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From a legal point of view, is there a difference between 'copying' a DVD and 'converting it' for a handheld device? I don't think the current laws contemplated the popularity of devices such as the iPod, so maybe there is room based on the language used to describe the feature.
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The more I can integrate DVD's into my Media System the more I'm likely to buy.
I'm moving to the point where I want Media Center to be sat in my front room.
My front rooms already full of CD's given that with my housemates we've combined forces,
and now have just one massive collection.
We quite simply don't have space to put DVD's down there as well.
We wouldn't have space to sit down.
I want to get to the point where I can buy the disc and then store it in the loft
as backup =)
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From a legal point of view, is there a difference between 'copying' a DVD and 'converting it' for a handheld device?
They are definitely different, but I'm no expert in the distinction.
I just added a link to the DMCA law in my first post above.
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They are definitely different, but I'm no expert in the distinction.
I just added a link to the DMCA law in my first post above.
something is wrong with the link above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA)
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It's fixed. Thanks.
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Just stay in the "fair use" catagory for now. Allow DVD's to be copied or backed up, but don't add any functionality (yet) for ripping to another format, like mpeg4.
As long as it's just a copy, with no modification, you'd be able to claim that this is just personal backup (which for 90% of your users, it probably it).
Anyone who is ripping DVD's for redistribution on the internet is likely already using something else to do it.
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I can't believe some people are discouraging such a wonderful and obvious feature to MC12...
...unless JRiver were sued out of existence (which seems extremely unlikely)
I think you underestimate the resolve (and depth of pockets) of the movie industry. I am not aware of any legal (in the US) product that allows you to do this. Those that have existed in the past have been ruled illegal to sell in the US by the Federal Courts. The stand has been taken (by Studio 321 with their DVD X software) and was lost in the courts.
To answer the original question: Do NOT include this in the software unless you want to start (and pay for) a court battle.
'Fair use' is not a valid argument thanks to the DMCA. If you want to get fair use back, lobby your congressmen (or the Library of Congress who can make exemptions to the DMCA) for this. You DO have the right (fair use) to make personal copies of copyrighted materials. You do NOT have the right (DMCA) to break or circumvent copy protection encryption. The DMCA trumps fair use, since fair use is a legal concept while DMCA is Federal law.
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I´d love dvd ripping too. I don´t think you get problems because there are many free products which allow you the same like 43dvd or dvd decrypter, etc.
and I read microsoft is working on a dvd ripper .... I read an article about it. It should get included in Vista
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I´d love dvd ripping too. I don´t think you get problems because there are many free products which allow you the same like 43dvd or dvd decrypter, etc.
and I read microsoft is working on a dvd ripper .... I read an article about it. It should get included in Vista
Please do a little research before suggesting the inclusion of a feature that would be illegal in most countries. Just because there is free software available on the net that allows this, does not make that sofware legal to distribute in most countries. I find it interesting that you mention DVD Decryptor, since it has been shut down and is illegal to distribute in many countries already. The fact that you CAN download from sites that operate outside of those countries does not change this fact.
http://www.dvdhelp.us/dvddecrypter/dvddecrypter.html
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I agree with those advising against this. Almost certainly, J River would get noticed by two entities: the first is the movie industry and their lawyers... and the second would be the hackers and pirates who routinely post "cracks" to the many releases of programs like 'AnyDVD', which are already out there & already perform this function.
I've been using MJ & MC too long to see it go away! :(
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what i am wondering is all the new products like iPod Video, That Does Play Movies.
If we buy a DVD can it be ripped to a iPod or is this wrong also?
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I agree with Escafo.
There are lots of great tools available for ripping DVDs. I don't want JRiver to take any risks with my beloved MC.
What I do want is for MC to properly manage my online and offline DVDs just as it does for all other media types. Unfortunatley MC is REALLY poor with managing DVDs today. Suggest you fix basic functionally like import, tag, and rename before considering anything more fancy.
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Even though I voted for "Of Course" I would seriously advice against the inclusion of the dvd ripping feature in Media Center. I love Media Center too much to see it being sued by the MPAA for the inclusion of this feature. I am sure that people who are interested in backing up their dvd can find some other softwares that can do the same job well enough.
This is almost word for word what I would say. I would rather see Media Center (or a better name) be improved to the point where it becomes a mainstream name like Windows Media Player, iTunes, WinAmp, etc. Look at companies like Apple & Microsoft. They take ideas/products that already exist, improve them, make them cooler, and then come out with a product that becomes what the population wants. I would love to see the same happen to JRiver's product.
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what i am wondering is all the new products like iPod Video, That Does Play Movies.
If we buy a DVD can it be ripped to a iPod or is this wrong also?
The whole DMCA vs Fair Use issue is a contradiction that the courts have not resolved. Any attempt to resolve it would require a lengthy legal battle that would likely get appealed all the way to the Supreme Court (assuming both parties had enough money/resolve to pursue it that far). The only answer I have seen on this comes from the DVD-X case. The judge ruled that having the copy of the content was legal under fair use, but distributing the software necessary to crack the encryption to make the copy was illegal.
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At the end we come to five possibilities:
1)include ripping
2)don´t include ripping
3)include it with extra plugin (my favorite)
4)include it with extra encry. program needed
5)only include ripping for unprodected dvds
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what i am wondering is all the new products like iPod Video, That Does Play Movies.
If we buy a DVD can it be ripped to a iPod or is this wrong also?
That's why I think the angle of 'converting DVDs for iPod/handheld device may be safer than 'copying' DVDs.
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JimH,
I have not researched it, but I would recommend checking out what Apple:
1) Is doing in this area
2) Is not doing
3) What they are planning (I admit this is almost impossible).
The iPod & iPhone need this capability. Apple has more lawyers than JRiver, so I would follow their lead (from a risk management point of view).
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At the end we come to five possibilities:
1)include ripping
2)don´t include ripping
3)include it with extra plugin (my favorite)
4)include it with extra encry. program needed
5)only include ripping for unprodected dvds
The only two that would not possibly get JRiver dragged in to court would be 2 and 5.
3 (assuming that JRiver did not make/distribute the plugin) and 4 are on shaky enough ground that JRiver would need to seek legal advice before doing.
1 would most likely result in a lawsuit and court battle of some kind.
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IMO (I'm not an attorney, but I read Glynor's posts--although he's not an attorney either), #3 is the same as #5 as far as CYA goes. #3 is my favorite also, and I would note that the MC community has plenty of plugin writers. AFAIK, you could even have the program ship with #5 capabilities, and then it's completely up to the user whether they were to download a companion program commonly avalable on the web, which would conveniently NOT require any additional plugin for functional compatibility with MC. I just think there's less of the "Naughty Vicar" in that.
The argument made earlier that DVD ripping is no different than CD ripping is the one I agree with (see above for my legal qualifications). However, there is the additional aspect of DeCSS involved. Mind you, whatever I do with my CDs or DVDs on my machine ought to be my business, but that's not going to keep the Plaintiff's Bar in yatchs and G-V's, so you can forget any notion of 'live and let live'.
Interesting to read the sentiment here. While most of us view the capability anywhere from 'nice' to 'essential', most of us are unwilling to risk future upgrades to our beloved MC for the feature.
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(I'm not an attorney, but I read Glynor's posts--although he's not an attorney either)
;D
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Quoting Matt:
"I think lawsuits and root-kits are a better way to increase revenue than embracing computers. Computers are scary. And they're probably only a fad. The fondue pots of this generation.
On the other hand, martyr is just a fancy word for dead."
(jgreen affects his best Dennis Hopper voice:)
Whoah!
"The fondue pots of this generation?" " . . .a fancy word for . . ."
OMG!
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The argument made earlier that DVD ripping is no different than CD ripping is the one I agree with
There is a very important difference between ripping commercial CD and DVD content - and that is that CD content is not encrypted/copy protected but DVD content is. This is where the DMCA (and similar laws in other countries) come in to play.
Mind you, whatever I do with my CDs or DVDs on my machine ought to be my business
I think the courts would agree with you here - but we are not talking about what you are doing on your machine, we are talking about the distribution of software by J River that violates the DMCA by circumventing the copy protection on commercial DVDs
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I find it amusing your all giving Legal advice. He meerly asked if it was wrong and would we like to see it in MC.
I'm pretty sure they're smart enough to know themselves they would need to speak to a lawyer about this and watch their back legally he's just asking if we'd like it alot.
I'd love it as a feature - if everyones so worried about the legal side - maybe MC can just control DVD-Decryptor to do the ripping but people would have to download and install that seperately (therefore MC isn't responsible).
Anyway - if your asking if we'd want it your probably aware of some legal grounds that make you think you can do it so I say go for it... I know I'd love a one click feature to add it to my media collection.
Apple and alot of the media cartel seem to be publically talking about DRM at the moment and how much its not what everyone wants.
The fact HD-DVD's are already cracked so they can be backed up just points out how useless the whole thing is.
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It would be cool if Jimh would make a short statement which possibilities he really have.
I mean a plugin is not so easy and maybe impossible.
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It would be cool if Jimh would make a short statement which possibilities he really have.
I mean a plugin is not so easy and maybe impossible.
I agree with a lot of what's been said, except for using plug-ins or other programs to shed the responsibility.
I think it is technicall illegal to do, but is the law correct? Would it be supported by a jury? More than 90 per cent of those responding think it is not wrong, but I wonder what the wider public would think.
I'd like to let this run a few days before I say much more.
Thanks for the help.
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I welcome the dvd ripping option. I have an Archos 604 wifi and it would be nice to have MC rip my dvd to .vob and then auto synch/transfer that freshly ripped movie to my Archos.
Since the UMD discs for the PSP are dead, Sony is selling a program called Image Converter 2.1 to convert dvd's to MP4 format. Sony Pictures is a movie studio and they are supporting dvd ripping..at least for a Sony product.
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I'll make a clear statement regarding my opinion of what is right vs wrong.
It is wrong to take protected content (music, video, etc.) and copy it for distribution. This is stealing.
It is perfectly OK to make copies of content you purchased for your:
1) Backup
2) Storage & playback on computers & other devices
3) Conversion into formats compatible with other ubiquitous devices (handhelds, etc.)
So time will tell this plays out in the legislature and courts.
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Jim - you'll be a hero in many an eye if you take the MPAA to an open Jury court and put them in their place.
I dont think a Jury would think this is wrong as I dont know a single person who thinks it is wrong and to be honest.
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Jim - you'll be a hero in many an eye if you take the MPAA to an open Jury court and put them in their place.
I dont think a Jury would think this is wrong as I dont know a single person who thinks it is wrong and to be honest.
The only problem with this argument is that a Jury is not instructed to rule on what is 'wrong' or 'right' they are instructed to rule on what is 'legal' and 'illegal'. It is currently illegal (under the DMCA) to distribute software that circumvents the encryption on DVD's. Even if JRiver got lucky in the jury trial, it would get appealed - so do you want JRiver spending their limited funds or product or court cases?
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...a feature that would be illegal in most countries.
how sure are you of this? I'm pretty sure that's NOT the case - outside of the US, the laws tend to either allow fair use or aren't clear enough either way.
OK, so obviously the US needs to be factored in, but considering that it isn't actually illegal in lots of places has to be a factor, surely?
Personally, whilst there are plenty of pieces of software that can do this, I think it's important for MC to do its best to treat ALL media equally - ok, so the industry doesn't do that but that's really just a quirk of history more than anything else - and having in-built DVD ripping functionality fits perfectly with it.
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The only problem with this argument is that a Jury is not instructed to rule on what is 'wrong' or 'right' they are instructed to rule on what is 'legal' and 'illegal'. It is currently illegal (under the DMCA) to distribute software that circumvents the encryption on DVD's. Even if JRiver got lucky in the jury trial, it would get appealed - so do you want JRiver spending their limited funds or product or court cases?
Which is the biggest problem with the legal system.
The Jury 'aka my Peers' should be able to say if they even think what I've done is wrong. If they dont then they should be able to say so and the law should have to change according to what we the people think is right or wrong!!
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how sure are you of this? I'm pretty sure that's NOT the case - outside of the US, the laws tend to either allow fair use or aren't clear enough either way.
OK, so obviously the US needs to be factored in, but considering that it isn't actually illegal in lots of places has to be a factor, surely?
Personally, whilst there are plenty of pieces of software that can do this, I think it's important for MC to do its best to treat ALL media equally - ok, so the industry doesn't do that but that's really just a quirk of history more than anything else - and having in-built DVD ripping functionality fits perfectly with it.
Illegal in any EU country:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/11/eu_sanctifies_copyrights_la_dmca/
I know similar laws have passed or are pending many places. There ARE several pieces of software floating around on the 'net that provide this functionality, but all COMMERCIAL attempts to do so have been met in the US and in Europe with court battles that they have lost.
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BartMan,
Are you an attorney?
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Which is the biggest problem with the legal system.
The Jury 'aka my Peers' should be able to say if they even think what I've done is wrong. If they dont then they should be able to say so and the law should have to change according to what we the people think is right or wrong!!
Technically they CAN (known as 'Jury Nullification'), but it is rare - and good luck finding a jury savvy enough (and willing enough) to ignore the judge's direction and employ this.
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Illegal in any EU country:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/11/eu_sanctifies_copyrights_la_dmca/
I know similar laws have passed or are pending many places. There ARE several pieces of software floating around on the 'net that provide this functionality, but all COMMERCIAL attempts to do so have been met in the US and in Europe with court battles that they have lost.
That's a directive though, and the implementation is a different matter (albeit the result in most EU countries is similar)
Interestingly, the EU directive says that it only applies if the technological measures (i.e. CSS in this case) are effective. It's kind of hard to argue these days that CSS is effective...
Still leaves the rest of the world anyway.
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'COMMERCIAL' - and there are really are TONS of (commercial, by my understanding of the word!) applications around that do it...
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BartMan,
Are you an attorney?
Sorry, no - just have followed the whole DMCA debacle with some interest and watched as the software used to rip DVD's has been pulled from shelves and the distribution moved underground/overseas to tolerant countries due to losing court cases and legal threats. I would be happy to learn that my OPINION on this matter is totally misguided.
I DO think J River should seek competent legal advice on this issue though before adding any ability to circumvent the copy protection measures on DVDs through a plug in or built in functionality. The MPAA has lawyers on retainer that they have been more than happy to send after every other company that has done this - so get legal advice and expect a fight if you include any such capability. You may want to contact the EFF (http://www.eff.org/) if you decide to move ahead with this. They may be willing to cover some of the legal costs - or provide attorneys to help.
Some good news is that at least one attempt to enforce the criminal side of the DMCA has failed (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-978176.html), but even in that case the product was deemed not legal for sale in the US and pulled off the market. Interesting to note is in that case Adobe asked for the case be withdrawn - but the government prosecuted it anyway. More info: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02360.html
I agree with the posters that say there is nothing wrong with it, and that we should be able to do this. The problem is that when it comes to matters of law - 'wrong' and 'right' usually do not apply.
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That's a directive though, and the implementation is a different matter (albeit the result in most EU countries is similar)
there are really are TONS of (commercial, by my understanding of the word!) applications around that do it...
Can you point to one that is legal to distribute in the US? Given that JRiver is a US based company, that is where I would expect the MPAA and it's kind to prosecute from.
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Please see this poll on DVD file sharing:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39061.0;viewResults
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Can you point to one that is legal to distribute in the US? Given that JRiver is a US based company, that is where I would expect the MPAA and it's kind to prosecute from.
No, ok, that wasn't really what I meant though. I realise that's the big problem.
I presume this is why some people were suggesting making it a plugin - to try and make it the responsibility of the person installing it rather than JRiver. I don't particularly agree that that's a solution...
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think about one thing = you sell MC around the world , there is few translated 'interfaces' of MC .
So , look like you cannot be Region number X only- All DVDs from all around the world must be able to be rip.
I do not rip DVD , to much of a pita , but would like very much a not such a pita program to do so and i'am waiting for a kind of APE for DVD.
I do copy DVD , without any compression using some programs than one said to be 'going underground '... well they are so much underground than you can get it on internert in no time and can hardly find anyone around you not having it ...And TONs of other riping/converting programs are on sale all other the net - One is even using a JRiver codec in his encoding options ...
Seing than more and more people going the 'screen big as a person box ' way , hard to imagine than the way to produce such a files illegal ... but USA is not know as a rational place....
I saw another post about file sharing -So far only good citizens are posting 'NO i do not share ' LOL
Remenbering me few years ago when many users still here posted the same thing about music while sending you they nick on prog file sharing X .
No one , if me , will say yes i share- But i cannot say so,cause i do not, honest , upload speed to little here.
Beside it, a very very great amount of sharing is by now FLAC and APE+CUE and FULL DVD - yes 4+ giga a movie !Or 8 is double layer. So , i really do not think , than compression still a major factor of sharing.
If JRiver must offer a Rip DVD fonction , my answer is yes , on the Multi Media level the player wants to be .
Up to you to know if possible to stop the game as soon as bells starting to ring, or if the only fact to put out a test built can start the process for good up to very naugthy results
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After having about 105 DVD's "lost" during a move (thank the movers with the sticky fingers), I truly believe in backing up DVD's. I currently back up every DVD I have to my PC, and use MC12 to play them all in an "On Demand" scenario. My major complaint was having to go through a ton of trouble trying to rip them, and recently wrote a plugin for MC12 that allowed me to do exactly what they've incorporated. My plugin basically ran DVDDecrypter in batch, then ran ffMPEG to convert, then imported the file into MC, then parsed iMDB for information on the Recently Imported files. If MC can do this without me having to use the plugin, then I say, "Kudos to them for taking a stand for what is right!" Remember, the great thing about America is that you can stand for what is right, even if it's not legal. I'm not advocating breaking laws, or stealing from MPAA, but 105 DVD's x $10-$25 per DVD = a whole lot of reasons for backing up what's rightfully mine.
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Well I rip alot for backups, but mainly I rip to encode my movies and TV Shows to Xvid files, so I believe in being able to rip what you own. But I would'nt want to see this feature in MC since it is by law circumventing Copy Protection. Let's leave that to the Myraid of programs out there, it does'nt need to be in MC
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When will the new build come with/without the ripper?
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After having about 105 DVD's "lost" during a move (thank the movers with the sticky fingers), I truly believe in backing up DVD's. I currently back up every DVD I have to my PC, and use MC12 to play them all in an "On Demand" scenario. My major complaint was having to go through a ton of trouble trying to rip them, and recently wrote a plugin for MC12 that allowed me to do exactly what they've incorporated. My plugin basically ran DVDDecrypter in batch, then ran ffMPEG to convert, then imported the file into MC, then parsed iMDB for information on the Recently Imported files. If MC can do this without me having to use the plugin, then I say, "Kudos to them for taking a stand for what is right!" Remember, the great thing about America is that you can stand for what is right, even if it's not legal. I'm not advocating breaking laws, or stealing from MPAA, but 105 DVD's x $10-$25 per DVD = a whole lot of reasons for backing up what's rightfully mine.
Sharing is caring!!
Care to share this plugin? (just put a link to it and host it somewhere else to keep JRiver out of trouble)
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Of course you should. I won't pretend to be overly familiar with US legislation, but as far as I know we're okay with backups here in Australia - provided we don't share what we've archived.
I would definitely use this function in MC, and could line up about 10 friends who would buy MC instantly if it were added, but I sure as hell don't wanna see JRiver caught up in legal battles. Proceed carefully, not that you need me to tell you that :)
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Here is a very interesting question. We all know it is illegal to borrow DVDs, copy them (either to another DVD or your hard drive). Okay, that's fine. However, take the rare occurrence where you are reasonable and only backup DVDs you own. Now say you lose the original copies somehow--moving, weather, whatever. Now, you have a nice pile of DVDs on your hard drive--which you kept offsite so it's safe--but, you don't really have much if any proof that you actually purchased a copy of those titles. This all assumes that someone would question you.
Besides, what would be the procedure for "getting in trouble for doing something like copying friends DVDs while borrowing them?" I don't support illegal activities like that but have always wondered that! Does a RIAA or MPAA official have to walk into your house and examine your computer? Does a police officer have to? How could you even get caught? If you got in trouble for something else and police searched your computer, finding lots of ripped movies/music, what could they do? What if they didn't even check to see if you own a copy on DVD--they just assumed you got the content illegally?
interesting, hmm?
Addition: I really like ripping my DVDs because it just makes watching them SO much easier. I watch a limited number of movies and the process of actually deciding to watch one is usually somewhat random. With my main computer, our living room computer, our family room computer (with 31" monitor), my laptop, or best yet--our theater (projector--130" screen) I can just call up MC with all my DVDs ready to go and I'm watching the movie in a matter of seconds! Compare that to deciding a place to store our DVDs as central as possible and then the likelihood that DVDs would get moved around the house, misplaced, lost, damaged, or not put away when finished. All those things literally destroy the few chances I actually have to watch a movie. I also love the ability to instantly pull up a portion of any movie...if a song comes to mind in a movie, I've got it in seconds! The only delay, other than human slowness, is the time it takes for the hard drive heads to locate the precious DVD VOBs.
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~~~~~~~~~~~We all know it is illegal to borrow DVDs~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is true ? I mean it is somewhere printed black on white ?
REALLY, it is illegal to lend a DVD to your next door neighbour ?
What's about children from divorced couple ? Are they allowed to go to mum with a DVD dad brought them?
Sorry , but i wonder about a country where you can lend guns but no DVD..............
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That´s equal. Nobody will punish you because you have a dvd of your friend....and how do they proof that it doesn´t belong to you.?
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We all know it is illegal to borrow DVDs
Where Or what law is that written into?
I can't find it.
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Mediacenter allows ripping of audio cd's AND encoding them with many different codecs.
IF you are going to allow ripping of DVD's, do it right and make sure video can be transcoded as well.
Media center already allows playing of video files, but they can't be transcoded unlike music files. This would be a very welcome feature.
I don't know exactly what can get a company in trouble, but I am sure JR will do its homework before doing anything. There are many, many commercial programs that backup dvd's and decode/encode video files. I don't see the problem if things are done the right way.
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There are many, many commercial programs that backup dvd's and decode/encode video files. I don't see the problem if things are done the right way.
People keep saying this, but these programs are NOT legal for sale/distribution in many countries. It is definitely not legal to sell/distribute them in the U.S. and that is where JRiver is based. The places that sell these programs are located in jurisdictions where it would be difficult or impossible to prosecute them under the laws of the countries that they are violating.
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Perhaps treat it like some linux flavors treat MP3 format.
Leave the ability to use deecss (or whatever) if it is dropped into the system.
Otherwise rip without the ability to decode protected DVDs.
Which is a not a real useful ability as most the DVDs I see are protected.
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After reading I am in two minds.
Here in the UK it is illegal to rip CD's to your PC although the industry have said they will turn a blind eye. I wonder if they would turn a blind eye towards ripping DVD's to your PC. I would love to be able to take my DVD's, rip them and convert them to iPod (or whatever) format using MC. This would make MC way ahead of the pack.
However this could come at a huge cost that might mean no more MC...
I suppose there always has to be one pioneer that tries to implement a feature first, as with ripping audio CD's. MC would gain huge amounts of exposure - that's for sure. If handled correctly this could be MC's future, handled wrongly it could be the demise of MC.
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Good thing CD ripping is commonplace and the original creators of CDs didn't build in copy protection! Some companies add some forms of copy protection but at that point, they can't use the CD logo. Imagine if we couldn't rip music?! I probably wouldn't buy many CDs at all. I want it immediately accessible in MC. With busy lives, we don't want to spend all day searching for a CD--even if they're in alphabetical order.
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It's a good time to add this as part of the standard MC load: http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=BQLQEH1XIVWJYQSNDLSCKHA?articleID=198701186 (http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=BQLQEH1XIVWJYQSNDLSCKHA?articleID=198701186)
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I think this is a very complex question. I would not recommend for anyone to get involved in all the legal wrestling that is going on. The only winners in any legal battle are the lawyers. Unless you have $10 million that you can afford to toss away with the hopes of making billions.
To tackle this problem we need to look at it from a public policy viewpoint. We want to protect the artist and entertainment companies rights but at the same time we should have fair use of the product. This includes ripping, storing, and playing from your PC any media product. The key is that the user must not profit from it. So from a personal rights viewpoint, I believe that once you have purchased a product that you have the right to use it any way you want to.
As for CD's the biggest thing that record companies can do is stop selling CDs with one or two good songs and have the rest as filler. The second is to stop this crazy price escalations. That drives people into looking at alternative methods of acquiring music, movies or any digital media. If the price is reasonable then no one needs to circumvent the law. As it stands now they see that sales are down so they raise the price then people stop buying so they raise the price and on and on. I rarely pay more than $7 for a CD.
An alternative view, would be that if we purchase a DVD and it gets damage then we should be able to exchange it for a like replacement at a nominal cost of .50 to $1.00. Once you have paid for the license you own the license. It is not fair that you pay for the same license 2 or 3 times.
The other choice is for the industry to develop an indestructible media to distribute their products on. I've paid for the same music on 8 track (I'm dating myself), vinyl, cassette, CD, and no, I am not going to buy SACD since all I hear is the original tape noise and no significant improvement.
Tunetyme
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I've read the thread at least two different times now - as it grows.
I see two directions that are promising with low(er) risk:
1- a non-JRiver-published plugin that batches DVDDecrypter or whatever external program.
2- a method that will NOT rip any protected DVD.
I think method 2 is used in other legal programs, such as Roxio and their competitors.
Since no law-abiding user would use a program like decss or AnyDVD or such things, this seems to be the way that ripping non-DCMA-addressed DVDs.
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Well, I checked "of course" of course. No one should have the right to tell me whether I can watch a DVD on my TV or instead on my computer-- that's too much governmental intrusion. The only way to really preserve the function of the law protecting works of media (I think) is to sell finite-play media; anything else should be "fair use" due to its fixed form & all that that implies.
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I guess this thread was brought back to life.
With music, I would absolutely not buy as much music if I couldn't catalog it on the computer (program independent). DVDs are very similar in that regard. It isn't as big of a deal because DVDs tend to be watched less than a song played, in general. But I know I like having our purchased DVDs on the server. I will watch them much more when they are a few clicks away vs. running around the house to locate them. Plus, with not needing the discs they can more easily be stored in a single, central location.
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What a heated topic :)
Of course the whole issue of personal backup of movies is a joke in real user terms as the only holdout in complete digital integrated entertainment IS the movie industry. I could rant on this for hours about our right to backup our movies...the ones we've spent $30 plus each on... so they are easy to watch, don't get scratched by our kids which of course forces us to buy the same DVD again.....etc etc.
Of course we should have this right. How they (the movie industry) get away with threatening the general plubic like this is absurb. The "law" that "they" have forced upon is is unjust and unfair and should never have been allowed to pass in the first place. It's not going to be long anyway before DVD's as we know them are obsolete anyway.
At any rate...
The answer I think is a plugin for a third party program. There is a fantastic backup program called DVDFab Decrypter which has a "command line option" to run it. http://www.dvdfab.com
Please...encorporate DVD backup somehow.