INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 13 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: Griff on December 09, 2008, 06:08:53 pm
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1. NEW: Many changes to experimental Theater View skin "Obsidian Beta".
What was that word, SLICK ?
No, this is Dyyyyyyynaaaaaamite.
I love it.
Thanks
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1. NEW: Many changes to experimental Theater View skin "Obsidian Beta".
Ah YES! Thank goodness the main menu has changed to being horizontal!
Love the new look, one thing initially is that I think the "Back" on the top roller should need an enter to go back, otherwise when you roll around the roller you suddenly end back at the main menu without actually wanting to go there!
Lookoing great though, will test more tonight and add any more comments I have then.
Richard
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I wonder if the "View By" roller's items should just show under "Audio", "Image", "Video", etc.
It's sort of pointless showing the breadcrumbs when you're at the first level, and back is just to the left.
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I think the "Back" on the top roller should need an enter to go back
Well, if you're drilled way in, this makes it so a few quick lefts gets you back to the root, which I like.
[edit: and my wife got (and liked) this right away well I silently watched]
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I wonder if the "View By" roller's items should just show under "Audio", "Image", "Video", etc.
It's sort of pointless showing the breadcrumbs when you're at the first level, and back is just to the left.
Agree
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What was that word, SLICK ?
No, this is Dyyyyyyynaaaaaamite.
I love it.
Thanks
Echo....ditto...whatever. It rocks.
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I like it too. I think that "Search" should be on the top roller though. I keep going into it by accident when scrolling through my views.
"Toggle list style" was hard to find too. I was looking for it and so went into every group, but many wouldnt even know it existed.
I still think that hitting left when you are at the left of the list, needs a visual cue to show the user that they will go somewhere.
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1. NEW: Many changes to experimental Theater View skin "Obsidian Beta".
I like it but the items should be scrollable via the mouse, now you can only go left/right with your keyboard.
(Maybe like the 3D view, that you can drag the row to the left or right)
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Awesome!
My thoughts:
- I agree with the other posters: You should have to hit Enter on "Back", "Home" and "Search" before taking you there. I had no idea what was going on at first.. kept getting thrown out!
- Playing Now should always be available from the Top roller.
- The only thing I miss from the last build is that it's not clear anymore at a glance what view I'm in. For example, when I enter "Video" from the main menu, I know I'm in a video view, but which one? Maybe replace "Video" at the top with the actual view name I'm in (followed by the sub-categories as it is now).
- Please consider moving Search to the main menu. I think it makes sense there.
- Play All should be called "Controls" or "Options" or somrthing along those lines. Took me ages to find things like "Toggle list Style" and "Reshuffle".
- The title for Playlists should be "Playlists" rather than "Home".
- Hitting right arrow on the top roller shouldn't take you to the main menu. This breaks how "previous" or "back" works everywhere else in the system.
- PLEASE allow verticle cursor wraping. For long lists, there's a lot of scrolling to reach the bottom (if we're to obey the 5 button remote theory that is!).
- When first entering theater view, you need to hit an arrow key to activate the menu. Also, the last main menu item selected is not being remebered when you toggle (shift+F11) between T'view and Display view.
This is EXCELLENT!!!!!
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I hate to be a bit of a downer on this, but as a long time Theater View user I want to give my honest reactions to this new paradigm:
Graphically this is looking very slick, but I really miss some of the information that the old system showed, and the navigation behavior seems a bit "funky" to me now, with the changes being counter to "cursor-only" navigation.
I think the biggest issue I have with the new system is the elimination of the "always present" breadcrumb path. With the old system, the breadcrumb path was present at all times as I drilled in. With the new system, the path is only visible if I specifically navigate to the line above the main list, at which point the breadcrumb path appears. I'm not sure why this is the case given that the space isn't being used for anything else -- why not let the breadcrumb path remain visible? I understand the desire to keep things "clean looking," but not at such a noticeable expense of ease-of-navigation. The result of the current behavior is that at any given moment, one cannot just glance up to check where they are, which is something that I do ALL the time.
Checking your location really requires the full path, not just the current spot, and this is now kind of a pain when using a simple "cursor navigation" remote. I strongly feel that the presence of breadcrumb path is something that should ALWAYS be visible so that when an album is playing, I can instantly not just the album name, but the Genre and Artist as well.
Next, I discovered that in my navigation, I really never end up using the upper bar. It therefore strikes me is that more functionality was lost than gained. The new system no longer supports wrapping when scrolling upward, which was a highly useful feature. I used to be able to jump to the end of a long list by hitting "up" from the top of the list, but this no longer works. Also, it is now less easy to quickly navigate to the "all" category since this is no longer at the top of the list. Holding down the "up" button now puts me to the top bar, at which point I have to scroll back down two spots in order to get back to the actual list. Scrolling "down," on the other hand, wraps to the "All" category, which is inconsistent with the "up" scrolling behavior.
I also miss the ability to quickly navigate to "Playing Now," which used to be visible in the left hand menu when playing an album, and therefore quite easy to access. It now takes some actual navigation to get to the PN screen.
I'm curious -- are the people who like the new the top bar using simple "cursor navigation," or are they using a mouse? I think that most people who need to use Theater View in a Home Theater type environment will be using simple up/down/left/right navigation.
Overall, I find the new system rather "unpredictable" in many ways, with a left or right navigation move taking me somewhere I honestly wasn't expecting depending on whether I'm on the list or one of the upper bars. With the new system I sometimes end up backing up one or more levels accidentally. This is something that really didn't happen with the previous paradigm -- navigation was always quite intuitive, I was never "surprised" by where I ended up, and up/down scrolling/wrapping was consistent in either direction.
All that said, the horizontal main menu is certainly very pleasing, and I'm not against the "upper bar" in general -- I simply find that the current navigation behavior is not as intuitive as the previous system, which leads to "surprises" in where I end up. In my personal use I find that there was a net loss in overall functionality.
Larry
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I hate to be a bit of a downer on this, but as a long Theater View user I want to give my honest reactions to this new paradigm:
I think the biggest issue I have with the new system is the elimination of the "always present" breadcrumb path. With the old system, the breadcrumb path was present at all times as I drilled in. With the new system, the path is only visible if I specifically navigate to the line above the main list, at which point the breadcrumb path appears. I'm not sure why this is the case given that the space isn't being used for anything else -- why not let the breadcrumb path remain visible? I understand the desire to keep things "clean looking," but not at such a noticeable expense of ease-of-navigation. The result of the current behavior is that at any given moment, one cannot just glance up to check where they are, which is something that I do ALL the time.
Checking your location really requires the full path, not just the current spot, and this is now kind of a pain when using a simple "cursor navigation" remote. I strongly feel that the presence of breadcrumb path is something that should ALWAYS be visible so that when an album is playing, I can instantly not just the album name, but the Genre and Artist as well.
Larry
I agree with these points. I didnt know that we had breadcrumbs until i went up to the top roller to leave the view. Having to click up then back down one is pretty frustrating.
I like that breadcrumbs are centered with the current position in the middle. That is much better than old breadcrumbs. How about having the rest of the yet to be explored categories show up to the rigth of the current breadcrumb (perhaps slightly greyed out), so that you can see where you'll go next. Then we have both breadcrumbs and the category list in one place. That would be great.
I also agree that having "Video" (or whatever media type) in the top roller isnt really useful info. Better to have "Home" since that is where you just came from. And I agree that the name of the current view would be better than "View by". And "Controls" is a better name than "Play all".
I also agree that you should ditch the "right" goes "back" idea. That is really annoying.
Perhaps when you put the toggle list style in the top roller, you could call it "View as" and then it would launch a second roller with the 3 viewing styles.
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When you post, would you let us know how you use Theater View? Remote, keyboard, mouse, touch screen.
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I'm using a remote control
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I'm using the Mouse (+ scrollwheel), no keyboard
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I'm using the Mouse (+ scrollwheel), no keyboard
Matt thinks improving mouse support should wait until major changes are completed. So please standby for a week or so.
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I think as long as JRiver continues to support the "old style" skins and that they continue to be as flexible as they have always been in terms of customisations (thru the xml), then it really shapes up to be an excellent system that has finally got the potential to make EVERYONE happy!
Cheers.
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Well, Ive played with this last night and part of today and I am totally happy with it.
I see minor issues, but Im sure the Team sees these too and will fix in the next couple of builds.
Thanks
Test mach.= mouse and remote HTPC=remote
Matt:
Got Dynamite (video background) to run in this skin.
So coooooool.
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I like where this is going, although it does make part of the bit that I skinned last night redundent, DOH! ::)
Btw the round skybox doesn't work with the MC logo IMO.
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The text for the roller menu is appearing behind the graphic ListSelection. I think it should be the other way round.
[Edit] This isn't always reproducable.
Any chance of the option of a small drop shadow on the text?
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Even with the high quality drawing option turned on text is fairly jagged in MC Theater View.
If you look at Windows MC the text is smooth at the edges, like it's font smoothed.
This I've tested on two Vista Machines.
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Even with the high quality drawing option turned on text is fairly jagged in MC Theater View.
If you look at Windows MC the text is smooth at the edges, like it's font smoothed.
This I've tested on two Vista Machines.
Take a screenshot and zoom in. You should see that we are using screen smooth fonts (which is no small task since Windows font drawing doesn't support alpha).
I believe the amount of font smoothing can be configured in Control Panel.
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I just spent a bunch of time setting up some test Theater View Schemes (annoying that I can't copy/paste somehow, unless I missed that feature-add) and then playing around with Obsidian Beta.
Wow.
I really like it. Way, way, way more than I thought I would.
It definitely has some bugginess, which I can report after I spend some more time and figure more things out. But the idea of the implementation is just divine. Amazing job, Matt. Really. Kudos, and I bow to your greater wisdom.
Because I can't let any compliment go unpunished... One little bit of weirdness that I figured out right away is that Page Up/Down doesn't work as you'd expect when you've selected the roller. It makes sense why it works the way it does (based on the system's heritage), but it doesn't act like you'd expect intuitively. I'd say that when a roller is selected and you hit Page Down, it should jump you back down into the file/tag listing area. Page Up should probably either just do nothing (if the Top Roller is selected) or kick you back up to the top Roller if you are on the secondary one.
There's a bunch of other weird stuff too, but I'll get to that later. For now, I'm just impressed to no end...
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PS. Can we get some automation commands that execute MC's reaction to all the major Theater View keyboard commands? In other words...
Up, Down, Left, Right, Page Up, Page Down, AppsMenu, and Enter?
I have these mapped via Girder right now using Keyboard emulation, which is much slower than all the other "direct Windows Messages" calls that I use to control MC. If I had a way to call these commands via Windows Messages when MC was open (instead of the default keyboard emulation), I suspect that Theater View would act way snappier with my remote. As is, it still feels very laggy. It is very snappy when using a keyboard, but the remote is a split second slower, and it feels just slow enough that you always end up with extra keypresses. Plus, then I don't need to always make sure Theater View is on top and I can just send the Windows Messages directly to MC regardless if it is open.
Now that Theater View seems like it might start rocking again, I want to have it all, of course!!
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I like the direction. Becoming slick and very intuitive. I've been using the mouse - & keyboard when necessary.
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I like the direction. Becoming slick and very intuitive. I've been using the mouse - & keyboard when necessary.
I don't think that mouse users notice the navigation oddities that remote users do. Given that Theater View is most likely targeted more at remote control users (tyicial home theater setup), and therefore at simple arrow key navigation, could some of the mouse users possibly try it without the mouse? I think that more "non-mouse" navigation would help get the navigation dialed in.
Thanks,
Larry
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just gone for a few days. the changes on thv are overwhelming . great job.... got to play
:)
gab
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I'd agree with pretty much everything Larry said above, especially the breadcrumbs not being displayed all the time.
I'm using Theater View with Netremote, but other than jumping directly to specific views (hence the reason I;d like the breadcrumbs) I pretty much navigate with the arrows & enter.
Richard
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Just keeps getting better. Still lots of feedback though.
Build .89:
1. Top Roller: View name changes to show the last selected item of a category. (Ie. Starts as "Video", then becomes "Comedy", then becomes...)
We have duplicate info here, and we still dont know what category we're currently viewing. Please make it so the the name of the current caetgory gets shown in the top roller, and leave the breadcrumbs always turned on (as others suggest) to show where we've come from.
2. Left at the left of the list takes us up to the current view category item.
I think that hitting left at the left of the list is ok to take us back up a level if there is a sign there to show us that's what it'll do. Why not put a 10 pixel left arrow in the center of the left edge of the screen and have it highlight when you hit left to go up a view.
Alt. suggestion: Left at left of screen should take us to the breadcrumbs roller, rather than the view roller. Then we can hit left to go to the previous breadcrumb, and we dont even need a "back" button in the top roller.
3. Breadcrumbs.
I think this was suggested earlier: Please put all the categories names of the view into the breadcrumbs list from the very start. Then as we drill down into the categories, have the category name change to the name of the item we chose. That way the breadcrumbs serve to show us where we're going as well as where we've been.
4. Press and hold enter button (on remote control) for 2 secs to launch the options menu for a thumbnail. A quick single click on a thumbnail will drill into the next level.
I keep suggesting it and no-one has reacted to it yet. Don't you think it's a good idea?
5. "Play all"
Complete agreement with everyone else. Call it "Controls".
6. "Playing now"
Should be on the top roller at all times.
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4. Press and hold enter button (on remote control) for 2 secs to launch the options menu for a thumbnail. A quick single click on a thumbnail will drill into the next level.
I keep suggesting it and no-one has reacted to it yet. Don't you think it's a good idea?
Won't play nice with Girder, which has to be programmed to know what to do when a button is pressed and held. Generally it reacts by doing nothing for a while and then sending key repeat commands.
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5. "Play all"
Complete agreement with everyone else. Call it "Controls".
but then the behaviour should also change. now when i hit the right button/arrow key, it starts to playback all without selecting anything from the second row. could it also be an option that it uses the last used from the play all menu.
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one small thing... i have been playing around with the skin. when i use navigation in the root, it gives back some info which is used by the skin for the cubes. when using the rootroller it does not give this back. iow the cube does not change...
:)
gab
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1. Top Roller: View name changes to show the last selected item of a category. (Ie. Starts as "Video", then becomes "Comedy", then becomes...)
We have duplicate info here, and we still dont know what category we're currently viewing. Please make it so the the name of the current caetgory gets shown in the top roller, and leave the breadcrumbs always turned on (as others suggest) to show where we've come from.
5. "Play all"
Complete agreement with everyone else. Call it "Controls".
6. "Playing now"
Should be on the top roller at all times.
I support these ideas.
Just to make sure I'm on the same page with respect to the term "Category" in the first item above, I take this to mean the name of the viewscheme you're currently in right? Well anyway, this is what I'd like to see in the header of the top roller and yes, breadcrumbs always active for audio/images/video/playlists.
Cheers!
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Am I the only one who actually disagrees and thinks the current system/name for the "Controls" is good? Or would be, anyway, if it remembered the last selection and renamed itself to always show the most recent "control" you used.
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I've been pretty quiet on this one as I find the existing presentation layer fine but it is now starting to look interesting....Here is my 2cents (V90, RC User).
Overall it quite like the look / feel though the test will be how the rest of the family can use it to navigate around and play their media.
1) Inital Screen & Down Button: Can the also please perform the same as enter. I found I'd select Audio / Video etc then for some reason press the down button (that does nothing) instead of enter
2) Type Sceen & Up Botton: Likwise when on the Top Roller of (say) the Audio section the Up Botton does nothing, can it be the same as "Back"
3) Views Roller: I'd not have the second roller but would access it from the TOP roller like you do with the controls roller. Simple reason is that for us we tend not to change Views all the time so having this roller appear when navigating up is odd.
4) Details View: I really like the new Details View with the Big Graphic and Text Underneath, but will the Text be selectable (eg at present it shows my Videos with Year, Time, Size, File Extension - But I may want to have Name, # of Views etc etc)
Thanks
Nathan
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I also really like the new Details view used for the "Album level" and would like the same thing to be available for many of my other Video view schemes. For example, having the same thing for my TV Shows view scheme (which contains Series/Season categories) would be great when you've drilled down to the file level, with the "big picture" being a stack-like icon of the different thumbnails instead of the single cover art image.
I imagine that the current logic shows this view when you open a view where all the listed files have the same cover art. Could this instead be configurable on a per-view basis and included in the Options --> Theater View setup dialog? I wouldn't want this for my Movies view in Theater View, but there are quite a few non "Artist/Album" views where it could come in handy.
A simple way to configure it would be to have a "File Listing Layout" combobox with these three options: Automatic (default, and acts like it does currently), Individual Style, and Album Style.
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FYI those interested, I've started to play around with the skin and combining features from the Blue Too - you can get bread crumbs, times etc...
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Hitting up arrow from the top roller really needs to allow wrapping to the bottom of the list please.
Am I the only one who actually disagrees and thinks the current system/name for the "Controls" is good? Or would be, anyway, if it remembered the last selection and renamed itself to always show the most recent "control" you used.
Actually, that's a really good idea. That way, those who wanted "Playing Now" or whatever on the top roller could do so.
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Hitting up arrow from the top roller really needs to allow wrapping to the bottom of the list please.
I agree, if it doesn't cause other problems.
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Am I the only one who actually disagrees and thinks the current system/name for the "Controls" is good? Or would be, anyway, if it remembered the last selection and renamed itself to always show the most recent "control" you used.
no you are not, and i agree with the last part ;)
could it also be an option that it uses the last used from the play all menu.
:)
gab
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1) Inital Screen & Down Button: Can the also please perform the same as enter. I found I'd select Audio / Video etc then for some reason press the down button (that does nothing) instead of enter
I think this would probably work nicely. It would essentially match the behavior of the previous skins, where the "right" arrow would work the same as enter from the main menu. Since the main menu is now horizontal, it logically follows that "down" would now start to drill into the menu.
2) Type Sceen & Up Botton: Likwise when on the Top Roller of (say) the Audio section the Up Botton does nothing, can it be the same as "Back"
As already noted, I think that "up" from the top bar should instead wrap to the bottom of the list, which gives quick access to the last item in long lists.
Larry
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There's an ongoing argument about whether every arrow key that's not being used should do something. Right in a menu, down at the root roller, left and right in a message box, etc.
The counter-argument is that if you navigate quickly, or press one too many times, things change you don't expect.
I'm not sure what's right.
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I'm not sure what's right.
For me, it's all about this: arrows should be for navigation only. So, I actually don't mind if down is used for Enter on the root menu or left/right is used to exit a message box etc. These all relate to navigation and actually help simplify the overall experience. All this is almost right anyway IMO. Only thing missing for me is UP from the roller. This should take me to the bottom of the list (as others have said).
What I do have issues with is when arrows are used for initiating Playback Controls INSTEAD of Enter - as is the case currently with the Context menu. As you've said, the biggest problem here is:
...if you navigate quickly, or press one too many times, things change you don't expect.
There's greater implications here too because you can unintentially blow away your current playlist in the process.
Thanks.
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What I do have issues with is when arrows are used for initiating Playback Controls INSTEAD of Enter
It all depends on how you use Theater View, because I actually really like the "arrow = enter" behavior. It allows me to navigate more quickly and use fewer keys to do what I want to do. I can actually drill all the way in and start playing something with just "down" and "right" arrows (although in the new skin, the down arrow does not yet "select" on the main menu.) For whatever reason, I've never run into the problem of blowing away playlists, but I can see where this would be a problem if you're moving quickly. I'm honestly not sure what the solution would be, or even if there is one. I suppose there could be an option to "Use arrow keys for enter," but I understand the potential issues with feature overload.
Larry
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1. Top Roller: View name changes to show the last selected item of a category. (Ie. Starts as "Video", then becomes "Comedy", then becomes...)
We have duplicate info here, and we still dont know what category we're currently viewing. Please make it so the the name of the current caetgory gets shown in the top roller, and leave the breadcrumbs always turned on (as others suggest) to show where we've come from.
I support these ideas.
Just to make sure I'm on the same page with respect to the term "Category" in the first item above, I take this to mean the name of the viewscheme you're currently in right? Well anyway, this is what I'd like to see in the header of the top roller and yes, breadcrumbs always active for audio/images/video/playlists.
Cheers!
I made a typo there. I meant to say:
1. Top Roller: View name changes to show the last selected item of a category. (Ie. Starts as "Video", then becomes "Comedy", then becomes...)
We have duplicate info here, and we still dont know what category we're currently viewing. Please make it so the the name of the current view gets shown in the top roller, and leave the breadcrumbs always turned on (as others suggest) to show where we've come from.
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1. Regarding arrows and enter, I think that it made sense before when in lineup mode and a vertical navigation bar, but now it's extremely counter intuitive. I say lets forget it ever existed.
2. One more time, I'd also like to suggest that clicking left at the left-most oint of the list takes you to breadcrumbs instead of the top roller. The breadcrumbs are a navigation device. The top roller is more of a globla thing. The top roller should have "View style" (lineup/thumbnails etc.), "Home", "Playing now", "Controls" and the "Current view (name)". It doesnt need a "back" button.
3. When jumping between the list and rollers, sometimes I dont realise I've done so. It would be nice if when you move to a roller from the list, the whole roller flashed or glowed subtly for half a second.
4. Re: a long press on the enter key to launch a menu on a thumbnail. Glynor, I see this would be bad for girder users. However, how about a double click on a thumbnail to launch the menu? I really prefer thumbnails over linup view, but I'm finding it a nightmare not having access to the menus.
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1. Regarding arrows and enter, I think that it made sense before when in lineup mode and a vertical navigation bar, but now it's extremely counter intuitive. I say lets forget it ever existed.
I don't agree that this is such a critical difference. We still navigate into and out of sub-lists using left/right just like we did before. In fact, navigating/drilling into a genre, artist, album, and song is exactly the same as it was before, so why should the final "right click for enter" be any different? I think that it works just as well now and is just as useful as it always was.
2. One more time, I'd also like to suggest that clicking left at the left-most point of the list takes you to breadcrumbs instead of the top roller. The breadcrumbs are a navigation device. The top roller is more of a globla thing. The top roller should have "View style" (lineup/thumbnails etc.), "Home", "Playing now", "Controls" and the "Current view (name)". It doesnt need a "back" button.
By this logic, why jump to a roller at all when backing out of lists? Why not have back out to the previously selected item -- i.e. if you drill into "Jazz" and then to a Jazz artist, why not have "Jazz" highlighted in the list when you navigate back out again? To me, jumping to any roller is just causing extra navigation work.
Larry
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Some thoughts on the current behavior of the highlight jumping to the roller:
*Note that the following refers to using the "list" style view in Theater View, not the thumbnail based view.
I finding it a bit "irksome" that when I start to drill OUT of a sub-list, my highlight jumps to the top roller, and I'm curious what the reason for this behavior is. I'm wondering if I'm missing some logic here because to me, the current behavior is creating extra navigation steps to do simple things. Here is an example:
- After drilling down to the "Artist" list in the "Jazz" genre, I decide that I'd prefer to be in "Blues," so I hit "left" to go back to the genre list... but this does not happen.
- Instead, my highlight jumps to the top roller, and I remain on the Jazz "Artist" list. I hit "left" a second time, which takes me back to the genre list, but my highlight is still on the top roller.
- I hit "down" twice to get the highlight past the second roller and back onto the list, at which point "Jazz" is once again highlighted. Note that I'm now where I "thought" I would be on the very first "left" hit, meaning it has taken 4 keystrokes to do what "could" have taken just 1 keystroke.
- I navigate back UP again to get to the "Blues" genre.
- I hit "right" to get to the Blues artist list.
Now, compare that to the way I would prefer it to work, which would be (starting from when I'm in the "Jazz" artist list):
- I hit "left," which puts me back to the genre list with "Jazz" highlighted (rather than the top roller.)
- I hit "up" to get to "Blues."
- I hit "right" to get to the "Blues" artist list.
That's 3 hits instead of 6 -- half as many navigation steps, and I don't have to do this "down then up" maneuver to get to the Blues genre.
What is the purpose of always popping back to the top roller (or ANY roller) when backing out of menus? Why not back out the same way we went in? This seems much more intuitive to me than the the auto-jump to a roller. Note that what I'm advocating was not possible when we had the vertical menu on the left, but now that the menu is up top and we don't have to move "though" the menu in order to move left, we can have extremely straight-forward left/right in/out navigation of the lists. It seems like we're not utilizing a fundamental advantage that the new layout offers.
Or... am I missing some fundamental piece of the puzzle that makes the current behavior advantageous?
Thanks for any feedback on this,
Larry
PS. Up/down/left/right navigation rules and behavior changes quite a bit depending on the view style being used. We need to consider the list view style being used during these discussions.
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Some thoughts on the current behavior of the highlight jumping to the roller:
I finding it a bit "irksome" that when I start to drill OUT of a sub-list, my highlight jumps to the top roller,
I think that's a bug. Although if you use left when you're in the left-most column, it will jump to the top. Otherwise you would have to hit the up or down arrow to get to the end of the list.
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I think that's a bug. Although if you use left when you're in the left-most column, it will jump to the top. Otherwise you would have to hit the up or down arrow to get to the end of the list.
Are you referring to using the list view or the thumb view? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like your using thumb view, correct? I'm using the list view, where navigating the currently showing list is done ONLY with the up/down keys (in list view, left/right keys are only used for moving into and out of sub-lists.) When using thumb view, on the other hand, left/right is used for navigating the current list, and "enter" is required for moving into sub-lists.
I'm thinking that this may be why I'm noticing odd navigation behavior that others are not -- i.e. if you use a different view style, navigation works differently in some fundamental ways. I think we need different navigation behavior for different list styles. Is this possible?
Larry
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Some thoughts on the current behavior of the highlight jumping to the roller:
*Note that the following refers to using the "list" style view in Theater View, not the thumbnail based view.
I finding it a bit "irksome" that when I start to drill OUT of a sub-list, my highlight jumps to the top roller, and I'm curious what the reason for this behavior is. I'm wondering if I'm missing some logic here because to me, the current behavior is creating extra navigation steps to do simple things.
This is absolutely necessary. I use lineup view style. Say I'm in Audio under my Indie genre. I scan down through the list to some arbitrary location way down on the list (with is 9 pages long of just artist names currently), but then I want to get back up to the top roller to change something using the Controls/Play All button. Without the left-arrow-jumps-to-top-roller method, there's no way to get back to the top of the list without up-arrowing forever, which is certainly not cool.
It is a needed shortcut for long lists, just as Jim pointed out.
The way I see it is that left doesn't actually navigate forward and backwards through the views. Instead it goes "back" to the top. Then, when you hit it again, it selects the "back" button in the top roller, but doesn't force you to push enter on it as a shortcut.
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Hi Larry
I finding it a bit "irksome" that when I start to drill OUT of a sub-list, my highlight jumps to the top roller
You do know that by hitting "BACK" on a remote or keyboard will do what you want and bypass the top bars.
example= alt+Lf arrow.
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I just finished really playing with it, and can I just say again...
I love the new Theater View. Amazing job.
BTW... I figured out how to use the Toggle List Style to get my TV View setup just the way I want it, so good job on that one (before I even asked). I assumed wrongly on that. It looks like the Toggle List Style is cycling for the whole "Audio" or "Video" views, but that's really okay with me, I can get it how I want it and it's easy.
My only three major comments/requests/needs for it at all are:
1. "Play All" does really need to be renamed if it won't be setup to Remember the last play-related selection (in which case it should be called whatever the new default command will be. Also, perhaps think about making "Play All" contain only the Play-Related actions, and separate the other stuff out under a new fourth top-roller button called "Controls" or "Options" or something. It was just counter-intuitive to me that ALL that stuff would be contained under something with a Play-related name/function, which is why it took me three days of playing with it to figure everything out.
2. I still need nestable views. I think I thought of a way to pull nesting off cleanly. When you add a new view, and then click the Add button under View Details, have a new Type radio button in the View Scheme Item dialog called "View Folder". When this radio button is selected, have the right-side configuration area show an exact duplicate of the View Details part of the previous dialog (allowing new sub-views to be added and configured opening their own dialogs and whatnot). Then, when browsing, these View Folders would be treated just like another Category. Opening them would reveal their "content views" in the File Listing Area just using the currently configured List Style just as if they are a Genre listing or Artist listing or whatever. No sub-sub rollers required. Just another "tier" of breadcrumbs.
3. Some method of copy/pasting views into the Theater View view-setup dialogs. For just one example (and a major reason why I want nestable views), I have 15 or so View Schemes in Standard View that are special complex searches (with ~mix commands and percentages to make them like fancy radio stations but which can still be browsed via Panes). I'd really like to get these into Theater View. Recreating these manually (which I wouldn't even begin unless I could nest views), would be a nightmare.
These three things would make me a very happy guy! But even without them, it is still really slick, and much nicer than MC12's Theater View.
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I love the new Theater View. Amazing job.
Thanks. Is it still the Rodney Dangerfield of Media Center?
2. I still need nestable views.
The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views. I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary. Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
3. Some method of copy/pasting views into the Theater View view-setup dialogs. For just one example (and a major reason why I want nestable views), I have 15 or so View Schemes in Standard View that are special complex searches (with ~mix commands and percentages to make them like fancy radio stations but which can still be browsed via Panes). I'd really like to get these into Theater View. Recreating these manually (which I wouldn't even begin unless I could nest views), would be a nightmare.
Agreed. We're going to do this one.
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This is absolutely necessary. I use lineup view style. Say I'm in Audio under my Indie genre. I scan down through the list to some arbitrary location way down on the list (with is 9 pages long of just artist names currently), but then I want to get back up to the top roller to change something using the Controls/Play All button. Without the left-arrow-jumps-to-top-roller method, there's no way to get back to the top of the list without up-arrowing forever, which is certainly not cool.
Ah, there it is -- the piece of the puzzle that I wasn't thinking of.
Note that another option would be to have the left arrow behave like the Alt-left "back" command currently does (thanks again to Griff for pointing that out), and to get to the top roller menu, we could press a "menu" key (i.e. the DVD player paradigm.) This would work better for me personally since I prefer the streamlined left/right in/out navigation and rarely use the menu, but it would be a somewhat different approach to navigating which may not be desirable to others. I'm just brainstorming here in case others have similar desires to mine.
[One side note: I can't just remap the "left" remote button to "Alt-left" because this would prevent left menu navigation.]
While you're pointing out things I missed, what about the question of whether or not it is necessary to be able to move your highlight to the breadcrumb roller? I can't think of why this is needed -- I don't currently see any navigation capabilities this adds that you can't do with the list and top roller. Here are my thoughts from another thread:
I realize that these things don't always work the way we think they will before trying them, but just thinking out loud here...
I'm wondering if the breadcrumb line needs to be "highlight-able" at all -- i.e. what purpose does this serve? Isn't this path, as you said, informational, and can't we just navigate in and out using the actual list itself? In other words, does navigating with the breadcrumb path line offer any capabilities that navigating with the list itself does not? It seems to me that the breadcrumb path should always be visible (except when this screen space is used for the "Play All/Controls" items), but that the highlight should skip right over it (when, once again, it isn't showing the "Play All" menu items.)
Okay -- what am I missing with this one? It seems like highlighting the breadcrumb roller is completely extraneous, but I might be missing something once again.
Thanks,
Larry
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Hi Larry
You do know that by hitting "BACK" on a remote or keyboard will do what you want and bypass the top bars.
example= alt+Lf arrow.
I did not know this -- Thanks!
THIS is the behavior I was looking for with the "left" button.
In my personal use, I would rather have the left arrow result in THIS behavior, and have to hit some sort of "menu" button to get to the top bar (see my previous post abpve.)
Thanks for pointing this out.
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"Playing Now" really needs to be global - available at all times from the top roller for all views. Right now, it's burried far too deeply in the "Play All" roller IMO.
An alternative could be to position it where the "Player..." option is currently (in the "Play All" roller). This would at least make it easier to get to but again, I really think the right spot for it is at the top.
Thanks.
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This is absolutely necessary. I use lineup view style. Say I'm in Audio under my Indie genre. I scan down through the list to some arbitrary location way down on the list (with is 9 pages long of just artist names currently), but then I want to get back up to the top roller to change something using the Controls/Play All button. Without the left-arrow-jumps-to-top-roller method, there's no way to get back to the top of the list without up-arrowing forever, which is certainly not cool.
It is a needed shortcut for long lists, just as Jim pointed out.
The way I see it is that left doesn't actually navigate forward and backwards through the views. Instead it goes "back" to the top. Then, when you hit it again, it selects the "back" button in the top roller, but doesn't force you to push enter on it as a shortcut.
I agree, and quite liked this when it was added, when I go left I want to go back so jumping up to the top and then selecting "Back" sort of shows me what's going to happen (which others have asked for).
What I DON'T LIKE is when I scroll up and the cursor jumps from the top row of thumbnails to the TOP roller bar skipping the 2nd roller bar. Just seems wrong and confusing to skip the 2nd roller on the way up.
Richard
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What I DON'T LIKE is when I scroll up and the cursor jumps from the top row of thumbnails to the TOP roller bar skipping the 2nd roller bar. Just seems wrong and confusing to skip the 2nd roller on the way up.
My thinking is kind of the opposite -- i.e. why do we EVER need to have the highlight move to the breadcrumb path? It doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong on this), so why not just use the breadcrumb path for "information" purposes (i.e. your current drilled-in location), and leave the navigation highlighting to the list and the top roller? Doesn't moving left to "back" on the top roller do exactly the same thing as moving left on the path roller? If so, highlighting the path is completely redundant and only serves to slow down other navigation duties.
As far as I can tell, the only reason to move the highlight to the second roller would be for "Control" choices, where the breadcrumb path is temporarily replaced with a menu of selectable items. Other than this, I think the second "roller" should be replaced with an "non-selectable" breadcrumb path which is never "hidden" like it is now.
Larry
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The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views. I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary. Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
I agree with glynor, I have lots of tv box sets and without nestable its not very intuitive. Imagine how much more inflexible your harddrive management would be without nested folders.
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The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views. I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary. Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
the view roller is an easy way to switch views indeed. that is when you only have a few of them. without the nesting it is a pain to switch, the roller gets to crowded or the result is really limited.
i think the view roller is really a winner when nesting would be possible. would make thv a good way to browse through a large library. choose different ways to go through it and different paths. just like you can in standard view.
:)
gab
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THIS is the behavior I was looking for with the "left" button.
In my personal use, I would rather have the left arrow result in THIS behavior, and have to hit some sort of "menu" button to get to the top bar (see my previous post abpve.)
Remember... One of the stated goals of Theater View is to have it work 100% with access to only: left, right, up, down, and enter. Any change like this would break this functionality.
I think you are going to just have to live with one extra left arrow keypress. Not a big deal because it is only required the first time you press "back" (after which you are already on the top roller and can just continue to go back until you get where you need to go or to the root).
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Just started playing with the new skin and I'll just use a cliche and say wow, just wow. It has so many things TV didn't have the last time I looked at it. So great job.
But like everyone there are a couple of things I would prefer. I hesitate to post this shot since I did in another tread but it really is more appropriate here. One of the most important things to me is how the player looks when you are just listening to music. And I spent a lot of time getting good quality album covers and I like to see them are large as possible. If it could be configured as in these shots
http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/12/13/f_untitledm_1f842d7.png&srv=img33
http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_untitledm_6bc4ad4.png (http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/3/12/14/f_untitledm_6bc4ad4.png)
t certainly makes the covers large, but also, when looking at the songs in the Now Playing list, there would be room for a lot more songs when you just have the text list style. And with thumbnail views of upcoming tracks, there would be less empty space.
In Standard View you have the option of a split screen either horizontally or vertically, so maybe it could just be an option.
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the view roller is an easy way to switch views indeed. that is when you only have a few of them. without the nesting it is a pain to switch, the roller gets to crowded or the result is really limited.
i think the view roller is really a winner when nesting would be possible. would make Theater View a good way to browse through a large library. choose different ways to go through it and different paths. just like you can in standard view.
:)
gab
Exactly, the views roller is getting very crowded for my music already, currently 12 entries and 7 entries for video.
I'm happy to continue to play with it but I stil feel nesting the views allows a better browsing experience for usres by guiding them through the library better.
Richard
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As far as I can tell, the only reason to move the highlight to the second roller would be for "Control" choices, where the breadcrumb path is temporarily replaced with a menu of selectable items. Other than this, I think the second "roller" should be replaced with an "non-selectable" breadcrumb path which is never "hidden" like it is now.
Step outside Larry ;D
The 2nd roller is the only way I cna see of changing the view scheme selected, so if I'm in \Video\Movies and want to switch to Video\TV shows I have to get to the 2nd roller to do this.
At the moment I have to go up to the top roller and then back down to the views, just seems a wierd way of doing it, and extra key presses.
Of course I could be wrong too :)
Richard
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Remember... One of the stated goals of Theater View is to have it work 100% with access to only: left, right, up, down, and enter. Any change like this would break this functionality.
I agree -- I was just thinking out loud.
I think you are going to just have to live with one extra left arrow keypress. Not a big deal because it is only required the first time you press "back" (after which you are already on the top roller and can just continue to go back until you get where you need to go or to the root).
In all fairness, it actually results in three extra button presses (not just one) since it requires re-navigating back down to the list, which at the moment requires two more button presses due to the stop on the breadcrumb line, but once again, I now understand why it's needed. It would help, however, if we eliminated the extra stop on the "breadcrumb" line, which I have yet to see a valid reason for. Once again, does having the breadcrumb line "highlightable" bring anything extra to the table? Doesn't it work better to just navigate "in" on the list and "out" on the top roller, and use the breadcrumb line for information only? (Note that I'm only talking about the "breadcrumb" line, which is when the second line is not being used for a menu roller.)
Thanks again for the feedback,
Larry
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Step outside Larry ;D
The 2nd roller is the only way I cna see of changing the view scheme selected, so if I'm in \Video\Movies and want to switch to Video\TV shows I have to get to the 2nd roller to do this.
At the moment I have to go up to the top roller and then back down to the views, just seems a wierd way of doing it, and extra key presses.
Of course I could be wrong too :)
Richard
Wait -- we're not on the same page here. We're talking about two different things -- the "breadcrumb roller" and the various "Controls" or "Menu" rollers, which happen to use the same line at different times. As far as I know (please let me know) changing from Video/Movies to Video/TV would not be effected because a "breadcrumb" roller is NOT being used at this level. At this level, isn't the 2nd line a menu where you can move left OR right and make selections. If so, you have what I refer to as a "control" or "menu" roller. The "breadcrumb" roller, on the other hand, is a simple "left-only" or "out-only" roller that simply shows you the drilled in position of where you are, and where the ONLY control is to move left, which is "out" of a sub-list. Highlighting THIS line is what I find extraneous since you can do the EXACT same thing by hitting "left" on the top roller, which is where MC puts you by default. Offering the SAME navigation on the second line is redundant.
In other words, what I'm saying is that WHEN the second roller is showing you a breadcrumb path, we don't need to be able to highlight it since it offers no extra navigation capabilities (that I can see so far) -- it simply adds extra navigation keystrokes when the highlight moves to it. If you navigate to something that needs to use this same line as a "controls" or "menu" roller, it replaces the breadcrumb line and becomes highlight-able and therefore navigable. I'm also asking that any time this second line is not being used for "controls" or "menu" selection, it shows the breadcrumb path.
Just to clarify, the two changes I'm suggesting are:
1) Rather than hiding the breadcrumb info, have it always displaying unless this line is being used for control or other menu choices. The use of specific text size/shades/colors creates an unobtrusive, clean look already -- hiding it has little effect the "look" of the screen, but a big effect on functionality.
2) When this line is displaying breadcrumb info, leave it as a non-highlight-able, info-only line. This saves keystrokes without limiting navigation capabilities.
All the "Play All/Controls" behavior remains exactly the same, as does anything that uses the 2nd roller as a menu where left AND right navigation is currently available.
I'd be interested in hearing your feedback on this.
Larry
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The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views. I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary. Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
using a nested hierarchy is a different browse concept, even if the roller would perfect I still would prefer to be able to use nesting...it represents best my flow of thinking when selecting stuff...
peter
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I'm with rpalmer. Up from the list should take us to the breadcrumbs so that we can use it to navigate. Up again should take us to the top roller so that we can do something more global, such as change view.
Left from the left of the list should also take us to the breadcrumbs for the same reason.
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I'm with rpalmer. Up from the list should take us to the breadcrumbs so that we can use it to navigate.
Do you mean changing the way the top roller currently works? If so, this might make sense. In the current configuration, however, where is the benefit to being able to highlight the breadcrumb path? All you can do from the breadcrumb roller (i.e. the second line when it's in a "breadcrumb state") is hit "left," which backs out one sub-level. You can already do this from the top roller, so what does this accomplish other than adding unnecessary navigation keystrokes?
In other words, are you talking about changing the top roller to a "Controls Menu" of some sort that does NOT have the "back" button and therefore does not allow actual list navigation?
Personally, shouldn't we use the second line for 1) control sub-menus (i.e. like highlighting "play all" or the main media groups at this time), and 2) for displaying the breadcrumb path at all other times (for a constant, instant point of reference to our current position.) This way, we don't lose ANY navigation capability that we currently have, but we eliminate navigation keystrokes since the highlight no longer "stops" on the breadcrumb path.
Is there a flaw in this logic somewhere?
Thanks,
Larry
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OK, I see where you are comign from Larry... we may not need to step outside after all :)
As you say with the current use of the top row, when breadcrumbs are "active" the breadcrumb row doesn't really serve any purpose other than being informational, as "Back" in the top row achieves the same thing.
BUT
When I enter say "Video" from the main meny, the 2nd row is then my list of Views I have defined.
"Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" etc.
If I say highlight "Movies" and then arrow down to browse the thumbnails but then realise I should be in "Home Movies" when I arrow up to get back to the Views Roller (2nd Roller) to change the view scheme to "Home Movies" I jump straight to the TOP row and have to then arrow down again to get to the views... this is the bit that's driving me MAD, the flow is just wrong!
Cheers
Richard
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Had a bit of a shindig last night (got a god awful headache this morning) so set up this new fangled Theatre View to give it the run round. I stuck the remote in someone's hand and let them loose with it. So it went really well, everyone loved it and picked it up real fast - in fact in the end even the girls were grabbing up the remote to have a browse round. Initially I think they were a bit intimidated but they warmed to the pure simplicity of the interface.
Impressive stuff. Just a few comments...
1. Having to recreate all my views seemed a bit unnecessary. Minor gripe I know, but I'm work-shy.
2. I like to keep my music videos under Audio, but it won't let me!
3. The lower roller that lists the views disappears and appears ... and makes for a bit of confusion. On selecting Audio, it would be good to have that roller selected by default, rather than the just first item in the list.
Anyway, back to my soluble aspirin... thanks
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How do you add views? I mean I see you name it, and it can be a program or webpage, and there is a parameter, but to add something like Home Movies above? Can I add something like Genre Rock? I added AllMusic.com and it worked, can you have it go directly to the Now Playing artist?
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How do you add views? I mean I see you name it, and it can be a program or webpage, and there is a parameter, but to add something like Home Movies above? Can I add something like Genre Rock? I added AllMusic.com and it worked, can you have it go directly to the Now Playing artist?
when you go to options>theaterview you see something like the 1st attachment. click on audio and on edit. an form like the 2nd attachment opens.. here you can add views etc
:)
gab
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Ah. Thanks
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Here's my thoughts and comments of previous suggested ideas, and a few new ones:
1. The view roller is an awfully easy way to switch views. I think it makes it so nested views are a bit unnecessary. Try it for a few weeks, and then let's talk again if you still feel it's required.
Oh oh. Please, no. Don't say that. It will make the life a bit more troublesome for many of us. I've been used to having img and iso files etc under Video now (MC12), and it works great. I know this can be done today, if you mark each file as video, but it's not really a good solution if you're importing several DVD's every week. Even though it is easy to change the views now, we will actually have to go out in the main menu, select another category, and then possibly have to change to the correct view. This will also cause someone having to make unreasonably many view scheems, and it will be hard to find the right ones from the Second Roller. I think it is totally necessary to allow users to include whatever data they want in wich ever view they want. Music videos under Audio or Video for example; both ways are logical, and none should be forced to accept one or the other. This flexibility is one of the things that makes this application unique. It was available, and have, unfortunately, been take away from us. I know you rebuilt the View Scheme stuff, but it can't be that much problem to have this functionality can it? I can't belive that this causes problems for inexperienced users...
OK. We'll add nesting back this week.
This suggested that the nesting would return, but I was wrong. With the new amazing Theater View, and a lot of other good stuff implemented, it breaks my heart that I STILL can't use MC13. I'll just have to be patient I guess. Something as important as this can't go unadressed; I hope.
2. Customizable details view (wich details and fields to show), and details view for more levels than last
3. Although the theater view have been improved much, I feel it would be in it's place to add some more graphical improvements. This is just a quick mockup, and the images doesnt go really well with the skin. But the main menu have much potential for graphical content non the less. http://pix01.com/wW@ETwv (http://pix01.com/wW@ETwv) Something along the lines of the graphical elements of the Bluetoo skin would be great.
4. Rename "Play All" at Top Roller to something clever. I played with the new skin for almost an hour and did not find the List Style. Read it here. I was scared it was removed from the skin.
5. Would be neat to have playing now at top Top roller, or remember the last used Control (Play all)
6. Away with the ugly background. Some sort of none intrusive and nice background similar to the PS3 background for instance
7. Hitting up arrow from the top roller allows wrapping to the bottom of the list
Don't-go-there stuff:
1. No enter hit for back button please. It will be really troublesome if you're in a far down level. I belive it will not be a big problem after people are used to the new navigation.
2. My thinking is kind of the opposite -- i.e. why do we EVER need to have the highlight move to the breadcrumb path? It doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that I can think of (please correct me if I'm wrong on this), so why not just use the breadcrumb path for "information" purposes (i.e. your current drilled-in location), and leave the navigation highlighting to the list and the top roller? Doesn't moving left to "back" on the top roller do exactly the same thing as moving left on the path roller? If so, highlighting the path is completely redundant and only serves to slow down other navigation duties.
Exactly. There's no need imo. I don't care about the breadcrumbs, and I beleve most normal users wouldnt either. If you use right context, most of the details would be available at the detail level. At least make it an option to turn it off, if it ever have to be in plain sight all the time. The more stuff on screen, the worse it will look.
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This suggested that the nesting would return, but I was wrong.
No. You're not wrong. Nesting will return.
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No. You're not wrong. Nesting will return.
Goodie! I never really had any doubts. Was just afraid I had to live with MC12 for too long.
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I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller. It's the same, just different. Both are ways to pick views.
Could someone help me understand this better?
Please remember that showing data under video or video under audio is a separate issue from how you choose views. (and also not an idea I personally understand too well)
Thanks.
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I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller. It's the same, just different. Both are ways to pick views.
I have to disagree. It not the same. Nesting, as I know and use it, are there to make you organize you're media in the way you feel is logical. View roller is just a way to access and pick you're different "baskets" of media fast. Sure, you could have a lot of views instead of nesting, but then you'd have to switch between them all the time, and you're guests would be asking a lot of questions. I'd hate to switch to it's own view just to watch my DVD's, when I have all other avi's, mpg's, mkv's etc under a Video view. If youre setup is complicated enough you might have problems rememembering wich views contains what. In my head a media center only contains Audio, Video and Images. But there is several media types that fall in between here.
I don't think I'm the biggest user of nesting on this forum. So I hope others can explain the advantages a little better than me.
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I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller. It's the same, just different. Both are ways to pick views.
Could someone help me understand this better?
Please remember that showing data under video or video under audio is a separate issue from how you choose views. (and also not an idea I personally understand too well)
Thanks.
no, the roller is the same as the good ol' view button, only much nicer. a first step to go through your media. as i said before using it for all your views, makes the roller a mess.
one example.. videos
in the roller you could put
movies
series
music
documentaries
home vids
when i would put for movies the next items also there:
director
alphabetic
genre
number played
guess
it is a mess..
then some views for docus and series also.. and it is unbrowsable. and in audio there are much more..
something that could be organized nicely in mc12 Theater View.
:)
gab
its a bit like saying that you only may have like 10 views in the tree....
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I still don't understand how nesting is better than the view roller. It's the same, just different. Both are ways to pick views.
I use nesting to Group my views into somethign logical for browsing.
So for audio I have totally different views for classical as I do for Jazz and again for pop type stuff.
As gappie said, the roller replaces the old views button (and is much better!) but it doesn't help to group views together.
I know you told me to prefix the view name for the roller, so I'd have "Classical: By composer, Classical: By Orchestra, Classical: By Soloist" etc, but this makes a lot of entries on the roller and thus will make browsing more confusing for people not easier.
If I could just select from "Classical" from the roller, and then be presented with just classical related views, to me that's a much more logical and cleaner way to browse.
Cheers
Richard
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work. One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize. Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View. And of course, we need nesting.
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
Cool. Thanks
Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work. One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize. Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View. And of course, we need nesting.
I know we all had this discussion in the bata board for a while... I'll have to revisit it before I make more suggestions :)
Thanks for listening to us...
Richard
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
thanks
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Exactly. There's no need imo. I don't care about the breadcrumbs, and I beleve most normal users wouldnt either. If you use right context, most of the details would be available at the detail level. At least make it an option to turn it off, if it ever have to be in plain sight all the time. The more stuff on screen, the worse it will look.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I DO use the breadcrumb path ALL THE TIME -- I just use it for information purposes. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like the breadcrumb path needs to be "highlightable" since it doesn't add any extra navigation capabilities that we don't already have.
Is THIS what you agree with? It sounded like you were saying that you didn't want the breadcrumb path at ALL -- not even displayed. If this is what you were saying, I STRONGLY disagree, and I disagree about most users not using it. I think that most users absolutely WOULD use it to see, for example, what genre they're in when they're browsing albums or songs. It's a pain to have to navigate up and then back down again just to check your current position in the hierarchy.
Larry
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
Thanks...its one of the most importent features to me!
peter
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OK, I see where you are comign from Larry... we may not need to step outside after all :)
As you say with the current use of the top row, when breadcrumbs are "active" the breadcrumb row doesn't really serve any purpose other than being informational, as "Back" in the top row achieves the same thing.
BUT
When I enter say "Video" from the main meny, the 2nd row is then my list of Views I have defined.
"Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" etc.
If I say highlight "Movies" and then arrow down to browse the thumbnails but then realise I should be in "Home Movies" when I arrow up to get back to the Views Roller (2nd Roller) to change the view scheme to "Home Movies" I jump straight to the TOP row and have to then arrow down again to get to the views... this is the bit that's driving me MAD, the flow is just wrong!
If I'm following what you're saying correctly, the issue you're having isn't effected with what I'm advocating. Making the breadcrumb path "non-highlightable" doesn't change your situation -- you'll have to do the "up/down" dance either way because the "Movies", "Home Movies", "TV Recordings" line is a "menu" and not a "breadcrumb path." As such, it is not effect by changing some of the characteristics of the second line when it's in "breadcrumb mode."
I think that some confusion comes from the fact that the second line is used for two different things -- menus AND the breadcrumb path info. I'm only talking about making changes to this line when it's in "breadcrumb mode."
Note also that the "up/down" dance is something that I've been running into as well, so I think that this might just be an unavoidable compromise that comes from trying to make the paradigm work the best it can in so many different situations.
I'd really appreciate any further thoughts or discussion on this since this is the time to try different things out and see what works best. Just out of curiosity, is the JR team open to these ideas? I haven't heard any reaction from anyone at JR on this particular issue -- i.e. 1) keeping the breadcrumb info visible rather than hiding it, and 2) making the second line non-highlightable when in "breadcrumb mode." I've been using Theater View in the living room for a while now, so my opinions come from real experiences.
Thanks,
Larry
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
That's great Matt. Thanks so much!
Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work. One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize. Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View. And of course, we need nesting.
Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:
1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.
Thanks.
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Is THIS what you agree with?
Bingo! You deciphered my bad writing :D No need to highlight because it don't add any functionality.
The confusion here is caused because I went a step further explaining that I don't see the big need for breadcrumbs at all. I usually remember where I am, and can see from the context what I'm looking at. I'm a neat freak. I like it clean and simple :) The breadcrumbs could be visible all the time, if there was a way to hide it.
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Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:
1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.
Thanks.
i think that that is a great idea.. and then on the option page beside the items to show, the list of views that have been added? and a way to add them..
something like that?
:)
gab
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Got Dynamite (video background) to run in this skin.
So coooooool.
What is this video background? Sounds interesting...
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Alright, I'm on board. Nest away. Thanks for helping me understand.
Now we just need to figure out how the configuration interface should look and work. One problem is that a lot of people aren't finding where to customize. Then we need an easy way to copy schemes from Standard View. And of course, we need nesting.
Yay!
I still think (from the old original discussions about Theater View changes) that the best option is to create a new Top Level hierarchy in the tree of Standard View where you are able to design your Theater View views (and copy/paste from the other existing ones) like you would manage any other view. This solves both nesting (just nest them like you would any other View in the Standard View tree) and copy/paste of existing views in and out.
If you need to have the Theater View view configuration dialogs work differently than the standard View config dialogs, it isn't a big deal to have anything in this special Top Level hierarchy treated differently than something under Audio or Video is normally. Keeping them segregated like that will also allow you to add an "Items to Show" in the Options to allow them to be hidden for advanced users who don't want to see them anymore once you get it all set up how you like.
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This weekend, I spent some additional time playing with Theater View. I also sat my wife down and let her use it completely unguided, as a test. First of all, she was very enthusiastic about the new functionality. Thrilled and quite impressed, so I think you get a "good job" from her as well.
However, it did starkly and quickly reveal a few issues. Most of these were discussed fairly thoroughly above by others (especially park and rpalmer). Basically, it boils down to two major things.
1) There is no way to tell which view is currently active when you open on of the main "top-level" Theater View sections (audio, video, or images), and likewise there is no intuitive cues that there is any way to change your current view.
2) The Top Roller has a weird hybrid functionality and navigation using it isn't intuitive. "Play All" is badly named or contains way too many unrelated functions, the top roller is used sometimes for navigation and sometimes for other controls and configuration, and the Breadcrumbs Roller (separate from the initial Views roller shown) is not used for anything at all. The breadcrumbs roller also hides itself when you have your highlight on the file/categories list area, which makes it hard to tell where you are in the categories hierarchy without going back up to check manually.
I see these issues as somewhat related. I agree with many of the posts along these lines above, but I thought it might be useful to put together a coherent suggestion for solving both of these issues.
To solve issue #1 above, I suggest that the Secondary Roller be made permanently visible, or (at the very least) this should be the default configuration (allowing skins to auto-hide it). I understand why you want to hide it to preserve the clean, simple UI. However, this is making the interface more confusing as-is, particularly to less-sophisticated users.
Like many others, I have specific TV Show, Home Videos, and Movies video views in Theater View. My TV Shows view contains the Series and Season categories, and filters the list to show only TV Shows. Other views work similarly. Actually, this brings up a second (unrelated) point... Why are the default Video views that MC comes with effectively completely useless? It just feels like Video isn't getting any "love" here. MC should have, imho, at least those three views by default in both Standard and Theater views.
Either way, the first issue my wife saw immediately when opening Theater View and going to Video was that there was no way (apparently) to get to the Movies. I had last used the TV Shows view, and so it auto-opened Video in that view. However, because the skin doesn't show the second roller by default, there was no visual cue that there was some way to change this and that there were other views available. There was no way to tell intuitively that you were in the "TV Shows" view. So, that was the first question I had to answer. Once I showed her this, she immediately said "well that's silly, it should always show that row (meaning roller). How am I supposed to know that?"
The second issue she ran into immediately was that she got "lost" occasionally when navigating around in the TV Shows View, due to the lack of the visible Breadcrumbs. This isn't an issue that I had regularly, but she hit it nearly immediately. After thinking about it a bit, I figured out why, and why some Audio/Images-centric users of Theater View might not regularly hit the issue. When you are navigating a standard Audio Genre/Artist/Album view scheme, the Thumbnails contain a lot of "useful" information. Even when you've drilled down into the Alternative Rock genre, it is easy to intuitively tell where you are by the artists contained within. The thumbnails displayed give you a very easy-to-grok visual cue as to where you are. Furthermore, when you drill down into a particular artist's album, you can tell immediately that you are looking at the albums from that particular artist (via the thumbnails) if you know that artist's music at all.
In a Video TV Show view, though, this is quite different. Once you open a particular Series, all you are presented with is a set of all very similar (or often identical) thumbnails with numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) for the different Seasons. "What show did I open?" becomes a common question for people who navigate slowly and sometimes open the wrong thing (many computer novices). The only way to figure it out is to go back up to the top and you lose your current highlight position. This becomes even worse when you navigate into a big list of shows (down to the file level), which all have names and numbers but it isn't clear what Series they're from.
Even in Audio, she occasionally got confused. She'd be in the Genre view (the default, I haven't changed my Audio views at all except to remove a few that I won't use). She'd drill into Psychedelic Rock. Play a few tracks by Pink Floyd (or whatever). Switch it to Display View to watch G-Force for a while, then switch back to Theater View to pick something different. It'd remember where she was, and she'd drill back out to the Artist list (but not all the way to the Genres list), go down and arrow down through the list of artists, and then wonder why she couldn't find the Beastie Boys or whatever. I'd have to remind her that she was in the Psychedelic Rock genre and she needed to go back to find the proper Genre. Again, if the Breadcrumbs were always visible, this would solve the problem (or at least mitigate it).
Likewise, I had to explain manually that hitting the left arrow would jump back to the top roller and then hitting it again would go "back a step".
I think all of this can be solved easily by taking these steps:
1) Always show the Secondary Roller, including when Breadcrumbs are visible there, at least by default with the default skin.
2) When in a Particular view, include the name of this view (TV Shows, Movies, Genre, Artist, etc) at the far left side (root) of the Breadcrumbs once you've drilled into a sub-category. That way, you can always tell that your browsing by Genre or TV Show even when drilled down a few levels.
3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller. A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you. So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation. They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.
Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity. You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all! Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button. I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images). That's nice how it is. But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently). There's just way too many un-related controls under that button. I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan). This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".
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Yeah, perhaps the Options dialog's not the best place for this. Although I've finally become used to it, I've seen first-hand the confusion this has caused others. I don't know what the right answer is but one option could be to leave the views in the tree where they've always been. Then, in the Option's dialog, provide a way to link them (rather than re-creating them) to the "items to show" area for Theater View. This approach has a number of benefits:
1. Keeps all viewschemes together - MC-wide
2. Makes it easy to test theater view views in standard view
3. Allows users to re-use existing Standard views for Theater View
4. Customisation is still done under Options, which makes sense. It just doesn't make sense to create views in there.
In fact you could put a tick box in the edit view scheme dialogue box saying "Show in Theatre View"; that should do it. (Or would that be too close to going back to MC12?)
I've spent some time over the past couple of days playing with the Theatre View options in MC13 and it does seem to be possible to get nesting to work, although not quite in the same way as MC12. I didn't realise that you had the option to set up multiple views in the Theatre View setup dialogue box.
One of the ways that I want to select my classical music is via a sub genre (e.g. chamber, vocal, orchestral) and then composer then album. So setting a view called Classical (rule genre=classical) and then in the right hand box Genre 2, Composer, Album actually does give (what I think of as) nested views and almost replicates what I was doing in MC12. It's not quite the same because one of my sub genre categories was Collections, for albums with more than one composer. In the new MC13 theatre view view options I have to add a rule to ignore those items and create a different view for them.
Is there a way to stop the view menu from displaying all your view schemes? I have over 30 and the items that I want to access from this menu are now hidden at the bottom of this list (of items that I don't want to get at from this menu, although I appreciate others may want to.)
While I have been writing this I see that Glynor has raised a lot of issues relating to navigation that I agree with. With a scheme like mine it is easy to lose track of where you are. One change that I would like is that selecting the a scheme from the Home menu (in my case Audio) should return you to the root of that scheme. At the moment it seems to return you to your last view, which means that the only way to get back to the top level is to keep going back up the hierarchy of views.
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In fact you could put a tick box in the edit view scheme dialogue box saying "Show in Theatre View"; that should do it. (Or would that be too close to going back to MC12?)
The problem with that is that many people have custom designed Views that are for Theater View only and they don't want the Audio, Images, and Video parts of their Standard View tree all "gunked up" with these useless-for-Standard-View views. I, personally, don't have this issue, but it was discussed at length in the past.
I think the separate-but-equal system for Theater View does present some good opportunities for allowing the Theater View configuration dialogs to present options not relevant or present in the Standard View configuration, so it is probably good to keep them separate.
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To solve issue #1 above, I suggest that the Secondary Roller be made permanently visible, or (at the very least) this should be the default configuration (allowing skins to auto-hide it). I understand why you want to hide it to preserve the clean, simple UI. However, this is making the interface more confusing as-is, particularly to less-sophisticated users.
I have to disagree at some extent here. I belive that most less-sophisticated users acually don't have that many views to begin with, and therefor don't really need to be reminded of wich view they are in. I have mostly used modified normal Audio and Video views my self. At least in MC12, with nesting available. I had everything including series, movies, music videos etc etc. showing exactly as I wanted. With only one view. Allways knew where I was. Never had to look at the position or bread crumbs thing at all. I just remember that once in a while I looked at it and thought about how ugly it was. If you also have some informative context at the detail level, I don't really see why most users with less than huge librarys have to use bread crumbs to know where they are. This take me to another minor request. Make the standard context include more than name please. It's hard for people to start with if's and all the parantheses (or (how (ever it's written))).
I totally understand that people also miss this if they're using a lot of views, and have a lot of levels in theire media collection. But I think that this is something that should be hidden as it is, and only be turned on through options if needed. I belive that the power users are more likeley to find this option, than the less sophisticated users are (if they wanted to turn it off). As I've pointed out earlier, I belive it's really important to have any skins as clean as possible to look the best.
3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller. A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you. So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation. They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.
Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity. You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all! Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button. I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images). That's nice how it is. But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently). There's just way too many un-related controls under that button. I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan). This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".
This one I TOTALLY agree with though. Would be a lot more intuitive/logical and navigation friendly.
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Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity. You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all!
That change would make touch-screen and mouse usage more cumbersome, I think.
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I would probably argue that the most common time when a "truly clueless user" needs to use MC's Theater View would be at the home of a more sophisticated user. EG: spouses, girl/boyfriends, children, friends, neighbors, house-sitters, etc. Those that are suffering through on their own, probably have graduated from "truly clueless user" to "marginally clued-in user" just through the process of trying to get it set up.
Those who don't, probably just use whatever views MC includes by default, which is IMHO an argument for including better default views anyway (which would require you to be able to see them to choose them).
Someone like you who is sophisticated enough to set up your own complex all-in-one view can probably be counted upon to change to a different "Obsidian Clean" skin if this one small extra roller really bothers you. I'm not sure at all how you could have gotten one view set up to effectively navigate all the different video types all in one view, unless you don't have very many TV Shows or home movies in your library.
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That change would make touch-screen and mouse usage more cumbersome, I think.
Nah, why wouldn't you just "click on" the breadcrumbs themselves? Arrow-key users don't need the "back link" anyway, and mouse/touchscreen users will just click on the breadcrumbs directly. Besides, for those few people who really need it, you can just have the "back" link at the far left of the breadcrumbs and have it optional either in the Tools-->Options config or in the skin.
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Sorry for the long post -- lots of feedback here. Hopefully somebody will read the whole thing.
The breadcrumbs roller also hides itself when you have your highlight on the file/categories list area, which makes it hard to tell where you are in the categories hierarchy without going back up to check manually.
This is what I keep running into, and why many of my suggestions center around this issue.
The second issue she ran into immediately was that she got "lost" occasionally when navigating around in the TV Shows View, due to the lack of the visible Breadcrumbs. This isn't an issue that I had regularly, but she hit it nearly immediately. After thinking about it a bit, I figured out why, and why some Audio/Images-centric users of Theater View might not regularly hit the issue. When you are navigating a standard Audio Genre/Artist/Album view scheme, the Thumbnails contain a lot of "useful" information. Even when you've drilled down into the Alternative Rock genre, it is easy to intuitively tell where you are by the artists contained within.
This is where I disagree. For many people it's not always intuitive where you are. This is particularly true when more than one person uses the system -- some people are not nearly as familiar with genres, artists, and albums as others are. I, for example, often get "Blues" and "Jazz" mixed up, so have to check where I am and really think about where I want to go. My wife does not have this problem with "Blues" and "Jazz," but she does with "Rock/Pop" and "Progressive Rock," which are NOT a problem for me. We both agree on our genre naming, and we both utilize the breadcrumb info on a very regular basis. It just "feels" right to be able to glance at it at any time.
In other words, my wife and I are audio-centric MC users, and we still constantly use the breadcrumb info. I think that what you were hitting on was the reason why many audio-centric people HERE don't necessarily feel the need for the "always visible" breadcrumb info, which is because the type of people posting to this forum are likely to be the type of people who are intimately familiar with their audio collection.
The thumbnails displayed give you a very easy-to-grok visual cue as to where you are.
Again, this is not my experience.
Furthermore, when you drill down into a particular artist's album, you can tell immediately that you are looking at the albums from that particular artist (via the thumbnails) if you know that artist's music at all.
In a large collection that is being added to by more than one user, it is VERY likely that you will simply not be that familiar with the albums from many of the artists in the collection. I sometimes like to browse artists and albums that I'm NOT familiar with in my collection, and I find an "always visible" breadcrumb path extremely useful.
Keep in mind another important point, which is the idea of using specialized view schemes and even custom tags. This is a situation where having the breadcrumb info is EXTREMELY helpful in keeping track of where you are, especially if you were not the person to set up this view scheme, but still find it useful.
Even in Audio, she occasionally got confused. She'd be in the Genre view (the default, I haven't changed my Audio views at all except to remove a few that I won't use). She'd drill into Psychedelic Rock. Play a few tracks by Pink Floyd (or whatever). Switch it to Display View to watch G-Force for a while, then switch back to Theater View to pick something different. It'd remember where she was, and she'd drill back out to the Artist list (but not all the way to the Genres list), go down and arrow down through the list of artists, and then wonder why she couldn't find the Beastie Boys or whatever. I'd have to remind her that she was in the Psychedelic Rock genre and she needed to go back to find the proper Genre. Again, if the Breadcrumbs were always visible, this would solve the problem (or at least mitigate it).
This is an excellent example of the type of situation I'm running into as well. Even if you're familiar with your genres, artist, albums, etc., it's still possible to get momentarily confused about where you are. When you have an immediately visible point of reference, it instantly knocks your brain back on track. Having to scroll to the top of the list completely breaks the navigation "flow," making it feel like you're constantly "starting over."
1) Always show the Secondary Roller, including when Breadcrumbs are visible there, at least by default with the default skin.
2) When in a Particular view, include the name of this view (TV Shows, Movies, Genre, Artist, etc) at the far left side (root) of the Breadcrumbs once you've drilled into a sub-category. That way, you can always tell that your browsing by Genre or TV Show even when drilled down a few levels.
I agree with both of these.
3) Change the navigation slightly so that hitting Left Arrow from the file list jumps you to the Secondary Roller (Breadcrumbs usually) instead of the Top Roller. A second press of the Left Arrow would work identically to the current system, except that it would be obvious (from looking at the Breadcrumbs) where it would take you. So the Top Roller would be used ONLY for controls, and the Secondary Roller would be used ONLY for navigation. They'd be clearly separate and easy to understand.
I'm not sure about this one -- it's hard to tell if there are any "gotchas" without trying it. It also appears that this might require more navigation keystrokes than what I suggested earlier, which was to make the second line non-highlightable whenever it was in "breadcrumb info" mode. In other words, whenever the second line wasn't being used for sub-menu selections like the "Play All" menu or the view scheme selection, it would display the breadcrumb path, which would never be hidden. This would mean that you'd continue to use the top line for "back" navigation, but consider the reduction in keystrokes this offers: You wouldn't need the extra "up" keystroke to get to the top line, or the extra "down" keystroke when wanting to get back to the list. This seems to clean up the navigation a bit, and helps to alleviate the "up/down dance" that other people have been noting in various circumstances.
Change number 3 above actually also presents another useful opportunity. You will no longer need the "Back" option in the Top Roller at all! Therefore, it would be easy to add a new "third" button to the Top Roller and move some of the commands from under "Play All" over to this new button. I'd still keep the "top level" view name in the middle (Audio, Video, or Images). That's nice how it is. But it'd be easy to move some of the other commands over to a new "Controls" (or "Options" or "Commands") button on the left (where Back is currently). There's just way too many un-related controls under that button. I understand that you don't want to add too much complexity to it (good plan). This way would allow you to keep the Top Roller to a max of three items, but still allow you to break out some of those commands into a separate "set".
I agree that the "Play All" button currently seems mis-named, but I think this could be solved by either renaming "Play All" to "Controls," or just adding a forth button. There comes a point where eliminating buttons makes things MORE complicated, not less. Having too FEW buttons often requires extra complexity in order to get achieve the control you need. There is a happy medium between a "clean" interface and effective, efficient "functionality."
Larry
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I think that what you were hitting on was the reason why many audio-centric people HERE don't necessarily feel the need for the "always visible" breadcrumb info, which is because the type of people posting to this forum are likely to be the type of people who are intimately familiar with their audio collection.
We don't disagree... I was just trying to explain how you can get confused to those who might feel that those people who do are just "not with it". I agree with you completely.
I'm not sure about this one -- it's hard to tell if there are any "gotchas" without trying it. It also appears that this might require more navigation keystrokes than what I suggested earlier, which was to make the second line non-highlightable whenever it was in "breadcrumb info" mode.
This suggestion would be "keystroke-count neutral" for all normal navigation. It would require identical keystrokes in count and type to the existing system. That's because I'm suggesting that the secondary roller be what the focus jumps to when you hit the left arrow to jump up, rather than the existing behavior which sends you to the top roller.
The only additional keystroke that would ever be required would be to use one of the controls under "Play All". This would simply require one extra up arrow keystroke, to get the focus up to the top roller.
I agree that it might be hard to evaluate without just trying it. Much like I didn't really "get" the idea of what this new system was going to be like without trying it, I don't know that you can be absolutely sure about this idea without trying it.
The reason I'm not a huge fan of your idea is twofold. One in that it breaks the whole concept of the secondary roller being a useful navigational tool, and makes the other secondary rollers less intuitive that they can be used actively. In other words, my wife's question would be: "Why can I use all of these and highlight them, but not this one random roller? How do I get to it?" She wouldn't understand that there was no need to get there, it would just "feel" broken, even though it wasn't. Plus, using it in mouse-mode currently allows you to click on the different "links" in the secondary roller, and I particularly like someone's idea above that you could use the right-arrow on the breadcrumb roller to quickly skip past certain categories (effectively a shortcut for choosing the category and then selecting "all").
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I agree that the "Play All" button currently seems mis-named, but I think this could be solved by either renaming "Play All" to "Controls," or just adding a forth button. There comes a point where eliminating buttons makes things MORE complicated, not less. Having too FEW buttons often requires extra complexity in order to get achieve the control you need. There is a happy medium between a "clean" interface and effective, efficient "functionality."
The reason they don't want to rename Play All is because selecting it and hitting Enter (without going to the secondary roller) DOES SOMETHING. Naming it "Controls" would obviously mangle this functionality and force you to use the secondary roller. Now, some would argue that since Controls would just be a "folder" for the secondary roller, that it could automatically select Play All from the secondary roller and enter would still work. True, but that isn't as intuitive as just selecting Play All and hitting Enter.
That's why I think we need the Play All button (with it's associated sub-roller menu) to stay around, but we need a separate place to store the controls that aren't related to that function at all. If all navigation functions move to the Breadcrumbs roller, then the current "Back" button is unneeded (or could be moved to the secondary roller).
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The reason they don't want to rename Play All is because selecting it and hitting Enter (without going to the secondary roller) DOES SOMETHING. Naming it "Controls" would obviously mangle this functionality and force you to use the secondary roller. Now, some would argue that since Controls would just be a "folder" for the secondary roller, that it could automatically select Play All from the secondary roller and enter would still work. True, but that isn't as intuitive as just selecting Play All and hitting Enter.
Exactly. I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.
Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.
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This suggestion would be "keystroke-count neutral" for all normal navigation. It would require identical keystrokes in count and type to the existing system. That's because I'm suggesting that the secondary roller be what the focus jumps to when you hit the left arrow to jump up, rather than the existing behavior which sends you to the top roller.
The only additional keystroke that would ever be required would be to use one of the controls under "Play All". This would simply require one extra up arrow keystroke, to get the focus up to the top roller.
Once on the top bar, there would also be an extra "down" keystroke needed to get past the breadcrumb roller to the list, but as we've both noted, it's difficult to really tell how well things will work without trying it.
it breaks the whole concept of the secondary roller being a useful navigational tool,
It will always be a useful navigational tool for the information it shows, but the thinking was that if it didn't bring any extra navigational capabilities to the table, it isn't useful to make it highlightable. If the top bar can be used for "back" navigation, then highlighting the breadcrumb path is reduncant.
and makes the other secondary rollers less intuitive that they can be used actively. In other words, my wife's question would be: "Why can I use all of these and highlight them, but not this one random roller? How do I get to it?" She wouldn't understand that there was no need to get there, it would just "feel" broken, even though it wasn't.
You may be correct, but I'm not sure if this would be the case. It might feel odd as you say, or it might feel totally normal to just let the breadcrumb bar be info-only when navigating. If the navigation worked intuitively, it might not occur to people to even "try" to get to that line. I honestly don't know how it would feel at this point.
Plus, using it in mouse-mode currently allows you to click on the different "links" in the secondary roller
This is something that I hadn't considered. You're correct, a navigable breadcrumb path does give mouse users a shortcut.
I particularly like someone's idea above that you could use the right-arrow on the breadcrumb roller to quickly skip past certain categories (effectively a shortcut for choosing the category and then selecting "all").
I don't follow this. Are you sure you're referring to a "breadcrumb path" and not a "menu"? Keep in mind that the second line is used for both.
My opinion at this point is this:
1) IF the breadcrumb path is highlightable and used for navigation, it doesn't seem to make sense to ALSO allow this functionality with the top line.
2) IF the top line contains the "back" capability as it currently does, then I think this navigation paradigm should be committed to and the breadcrumb path made non-highlightable.
3) The breadcrumb path should either not be hidden, or there should be an option to keep it visible. It's just too useful to hide it.
Thanks again for the feedback,
Larry
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Exactly. I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.
I can see this, and now that I know how it works I'm fine with it, but I'm thinking about new users. When I first started using this new paradigm, I couldn't find some of the controls that ended up being under "Play All." It just didn't occur to me that this was a "menu."
Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.
I can understand your concern -- you have to balance form with function. That said, it's really frustrating when important functionality is given up in favor of form.
Also, as I mentioned above, there is a point where usage gets MORE complicated due to too few controls.
Is there perhaps a way we could assign what function was used as the default item for this button? Personally, I'll rarely use "Play All" from the top bar -- I prefer to just drill into the song list and select "Play All" from the pop-up menu. It would therefore be much more useful to "me" it if this button was "Playing Now" by default. Just like you like having easier access to "Play All," I would like having easier access to "Playing Now" (which is currently a pain to get to.) Forcing this button to be "Play All" is targeting the interface at only a specific sub-group of people. To me it's a hindrance.
Thanks,
Larry
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Exactly. I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.
Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.
Sorry, I dont like it, but Im a add person.
But, some food for thought:
Why not change "Play all" to "Controls", Now when you select something in the sec. roller bar (Play ALL,Add All, Playing Now and ect.)
"Controls" now changes to the "Item" you selected and youre again only one click away.
?
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I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.
Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.
Thanks.
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Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.
I don't use it enough to worry myself, but can see the reason why you might like it easily available.
Up until now I've really only used the theater view menus for video as music was via Netremote, but as this changes I may need Playing Now more.
Richard
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I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.
I like this idea too, but I felt like you couldn't do this if you don't move the other non-related controls out from under there. It's already confusing enough where to find these, but then if the name is "constantly changing" (from the perspective of a novice)?
If the only things "under the button" were items that would be used as the button (through the "sticky remembering" method), then it could be very useful. I'd like to see it have the same "more" idems that we have in the old-style menus and then remember them as the new default too, so that I could use "Add (as Next to Play)" which I use often for on-the-fly playlist building. But those options should be the only choices in the secondary roller under the Play All button.
But, I also am not thrilled about adding a new, fourth button to the top roller, so I was hoping to find a solution that would allow for all of those concerns, and the others above. Flipping navigation entirely to the Breadcrumbs seemed to make sense and solve many of those issues nicely.
Once on the top bar, there would also be an extra "down" keystroke needed to get past the breadcrumb roller to the list, but as we've both noted, it's difficult to really tell how well things will work without trying it.
There wouldn't be any extra down-arrow push. That's one of the points as it would solve what you were asking for above. The extra down arrow already exists but this would solve it. In any case where you are just navigating back a tier in the view hierarchy, it would involve one fewer down-arrow keypresses to get back to the file/category listing:
Currently:
0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode), this is variable and not needed in Lineup or List mode so not counted.
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Top Roller
2. Left Arrow again takes you back one "tier" in the Breadcrumbs.
3. Down once takes you to the Breadcrubs Roller.
4. Down again takes you back to the File/Categories list.
Proposed:
0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode).
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Breadcrumbs roller.
2. Left Arrow again takes you back one "tier" in the Breadcrumbs.
3. Down arrow once takes you back to the File/Categories list.
Plus, this way you get these added bonuses:
1) ability to re-purpose the button in the top roller used for the back button for the stuff discussed above, allowing a "sticky" Play All button.
2) The ability to do this instead: In step 2 of the "proposed steps" above, you could hit Right-Arrow instead of Left-Arrow and have it quickly drill down through the View as if you are manually going to the Category list below and choosing "All".
Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.
I hardly ever go to Playing Now in Theater View (I generally use Display View if anything at all). However, this could certainly be one of the "top" choices in the proposed new "Controls" button in the Top Roller, which would certainly make it a bit less buried and easier/faster to get to.
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In fact, one other thing you could do would be this:
0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode).
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Breadcrumbs roller.
2. Up Arrow once takes you to the Top Roller, and selects the "Media Type" button (the center one). The Secondary Roller changes from the Breadcrumbs Roller to the View Roller (showing the same roller you see when you initially open the Video view, for example).
3. Down arrow once takes you to the Views Roller, allowing you to switch to a different view, no matter where you happen to be currently inside your View hierarchy.
This would actually solve another minor problem. It would let you switch from "TV Shows View" to "Movies View" immediately, even if you had navigated "deep in" to a view (inside a Series and inside a Season at the file listing, for example), without having to navigate all the way back to the "root" of the Video views. Likewise, you could switch in Audio from "Genre View" to "Ratings View" very quickly, even if you had navigated down the Genre/Artist/Album chain.
When I want to switch views, I no longer care about "where" I happen to be in the current view, I just want to get out of it. It is a waste of time to have to "left arrow" back over and over to get back to the root of the "Video" or "Audio" view. Plus, I often over-shoot and end up back at the root view.
This method would tie the "Video" button in the top-roller to some real actual function (it would "hide" the breadcrumbs and open the Video Views Roller). This matches the behavior of "Play All" (it hides the Breadcrumbs and shows the Play All Roller). And it saves a LOT of keypresses needed to switch from one view to another within the same Media Type.
So, the View Roller would be "attached" to the media type button. The Root view would only be different in that it would hide all the other rollers and stuff until you "opened" a particular media type. But it would make sense that you'd go back to the Media Type button to choose a different view.
PS. I'm certainly not opposed to trying to poke holes in this idea. I've given it some thought, but there are probably consequences I'm not thinking of. So please give it a shot! Matt's concern over touch screens initially tripped me up until I tried navigating Theater View a bit with the mouse. Clicking directly on the breadcrumbs, rather than on a back button really makes more sense for touch/mouse users anyway. The biggest issue was getting back to the root of a Media Type view to pick a different view. With this, though, about the only extra thing you'd need would be a "home" button, which could be added to the Top Roller easily with a house icon (perhaps only optionally visible).
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There wouldn't be any extra down-arrow push.
There actually would be in certain situations. For example:
- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, which takes you to the breadcrumb roller.
- You press "down" a second time, which takes you to the list.
If the breadcrumb roller was not highlightable:
- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, and you're back on the list.
Two "downs" vs one. Not a deal breaker, but a difference none-the-less.
I'm not claiming that one paradigm is necessarily better overall -- I'm simply pointing out that they both offer certain advantages, and that the "best" paradigm for any given user will depend on each individual's navigation style. I'm also not saying that what you're advocating wouldn't be better than the current paradigm. The truth is that I'm honestly not sure which idea would work best even for my own needs. It's just too hard to accurately tell without trying it.
On a side note, we all (including me) need to remain mindful of the fact that small difference in the way one navigates -- using lists instead of thumbs, or desiring easy access to "Playing Now" rather than "Play All" -- can completely change one's perception of how well the navigation works. It's easy to dismiss someone else's requests just because "their" ideas don't apply to the "our" navigation style. Remember that something that seems utterly trivial to one person may be a central issue to someone else. This is not directed at anybody in particular (particularly not you, glynor) -- I just wanted to mention it in order to keep a level playing field of ideas here.
Larry
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Glynor -- in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)? If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation. I don't see any obvious "holes" in it at this point, so this paradigm would get my vote for the next thing to try since I do see the potential for some problems with the idea that I was suggesting earlier.
We need to "feel" it in action in order to see if it works as well as it seems like it should.
Larry
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I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.
Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.
Thanks.
I'm using playing now a lot my self. In fact it's the only thing I would use on that roller on regular basis. So a way of having this button remember the last used thing would be the best imo (if not, please consider having a own Playing Now button there anyway). I'm also all for the idea of having one extra button wich can make it all more logicaly grouped.
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i like how it looks now... three choices... but i would preferr the breadcrumb to stay visible also...
but there is something unlogical in what is shown in the upper roller
when i go to audio it says audio
when i choose artist as a view it still says audio
now when i choose one artist like miles davis it says miles davis
now when i choose an album, it gets the name of that album...
should it not say which view you are in now. it jumps one layer of browsing
:)
gab
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There actually would be in certain situations. For example:
- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, which takes you to the breadcrumb roller.
- You press "down" a second time, which takes you to the list.
See, that's where I was confused by your statement before. That isn't an "extra" keypress because it already applies. You're comparing your hypothetical to my hypothetical, rather than to the current system.
gab, I completely agree. There are three buttons on the top roller, and one of them doesn't do anything at all (the media type button). And then the Breadcrumbs roller doesn't have any functionality either... It's a lot of wasted screen real estate, which makes me feel like there must be a more efficient and "cleaner" way to set it up, if only slightly.
I'll say again...
I still think this is miles above where Theater View was only two weeks ago. The initial idea for setting up this style of Rollers was a stroke of genius. I gave LOTS of thought to how to set it up way back when and never came up with anything anywhere near as good as this. I'm just trying to improve it on the margins to take it from "very good" to "perfect".
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Glynor -- in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)? If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation.
Yes.
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Just checked the new Theater View. Very nice.
I was wondering ...
In the playing now there is always something dsiplayed. It could be cover art, MC playing ping pong of pictures, etc, etc.
I have tried to disable it. Just to have nothing blocking the nice Theater View look that is hidden beyond this...
Is there a way to do this???
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in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)? If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation.
I may get slammed for this, but I think Matt said a few days ago that the breadcrumbs don't really add that much value and I kinda agree. Personally, my views are never more than 3 or 4 levels deep so I don't tend to get "lost" in the flow. I endorse the "view name" in the header idea coz I think it's neccessary to know which view you're currently browsing but other than that.... I'd rather not "clog" the screen up with breadcrumbs.
You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).
Just my opinion and I'm not trying to change anyone's ideals ;).
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You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).
I tend to agree, if the navigation is kept as is (which I wouldn't necessarily advocate). However, I think an argument could be made that you could just as easily make an "Obsidian Clean" skin which would hide the breadcrumbs. I'd say that "novice" users (those who are less likely to have the know-how to modify a skin, or download and install someone else's custom skin) are the same people who are more likely to get lost in navigation.
As I said "above", I don't typically get lost either, since my views are also only generally 2-3 levels deep. However, in a short period of time, I've literally watched my wife (who, it should be said, is no dummy when it comes to computer use -- she does live with me and my server rooms at home, after all) and a few friends get confused quite quickly in views only 2 categories deep.
Assuming that the breadcrumbs are not changed to "add more to the equation" (by being used for navigation instead of just information)... The question, as Larry so succinctly put it above, is NOT over the capability to hide or show it, but over what the best configuration for the default skin that will be used by 99% of the novice users.
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However, I think an argument could be made that you could just as easily make an "Obsidian Clean" skin which would hide the breadcrumbs.
I don't dispute this but as it stands right now, given where the breadcrumbs reside, these cannot be hidden in the xml config without hiding *BOTH* rollers - rendering the system somewhat useless. I could be wrong on this though.
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I may get slammed for this, but I think Matt said a few days ago that the breadcrumbs don't really add that much value and I kinda agree. Personally, my views are never more than 3 or 4 levels deep so I don't tend to get "lost" in the flow. I endorse the "view name" in the header idea coz I think it's neccessary to know which view you're currently browsing but other than that.... I'd rather not "clog" the screen up with breadcrumbs.
I understand that since "you" don't use the breadcrumb path, they don't add much value, much like the "Play All" choice on the top bar adds zero value to me (I just don't use it.) Anything that one person doesn't use will seem like it's "not adding much," which is why we have to actively concentrate on keeping an open mind toward other people's navigation styles and needs. This line is probably present 50% of the time due to the fact that it reappears every time you navigate to the top or second roller lines, so I just don't agree that hiding it will help prevent "clogging up the screen." In other words, it's often present anyway, so how much does it really gain to hide it for only a portion of the time?
Add to this the fact that hiding it really does have a noticeable effect on my navigating. I know it may seem like a small thing on paper, but the extra thought it takes to think about where I am, not to mention the extra navigation it takes actually reveal this line, is actually pretty annoying. I like to be able to casually navigate without concentrating on my genre/artist structure. The presence of the breadcrumb line gives me this capability, while the absence of it takes this away. The question therefore becomes: Who is impacted more in this situation? Does hiding this info for "some" of the time really have that much of an impact on the "cleanliness" of the Theater View screen, so much that it outweighs the performance/usage impact it has on people who DO use this info? Note the comments we've seen about how the absence of this info resulted in some confusion, so I'm not alone in this regard. Remember that we're all MUCH more familiar with MC and media list navigation in general, so it's easy to forget just how confusing these things can be to others.
You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).
It's really not "easy" to the average person, but that aside, the question here is more about what will work best to the "normal" MC user, who is not going to have any concept of editing XML files, and who will likely have a much higher tendency to get "lost," as in Glynor's examples.
Thanks for your feedback,
Larry
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I've spent about an hour this morning trying to make a modification to the Obsidian skin to enable always showing the Navigation (Location) roller with absolutely no luck.
I'm able to add a second Location text display if I want, but that's not what I want. I want the EXISTING navigation roller to not hide. I suspect that this capability is NOT present with current code.
Matt, could you confirm/deny? If so, can this be made something defined in the skin? Is there any good Theater View skinning resource that has been updated at all?
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It's really not "easy" to the average person, but that aside, the question here is more about what will work best to the "normal" MC user, who is not going to have any concept of editing XML files, and who will likely have a much higher tendency to get "lost," as in Glynor's examples.
They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).
I just don't see it. All "normal" users with so many views they don't remember which they are in, or which of the many categories/levels they are in.
Sure there are those who uses our MC, but hopefully there are, or will be, more "normal" that uses this app for them self. Not just family and friends of us MC worshippers
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They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).
Just because someone is a computer neophyte doesn't mean they are a media neophyte. I know PLENTY of people who have much, much, much larger music and video libraries than I do, but who have trouble with computers.
And I was never talking about having many views. I was talking about getting lost inside the default views (my "Genre" example above). Either way, I think the decision has been made. I just hope we can have the ability to turn it on permanently for those who want it. Despite the implications above, this is NOT currently true. There isn't a way (that I can figure out) to do this from within the skin.
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Just because someone is a computer neophyte doesn't mean they are a media neophyte. I know PLENTY of people who have much, much, much larger music and video libraries than I do, but who have trouble with computers.
Yea. You're right about that. I don't know many my self, but I'm sure there are plenty. Never the less I belive there are a lot more people that have a sparse collection, and hopefully they'll also be attracted to MC.
13.0.93 (12/17/2008)
12. Changed: Added a new Theater View top roller item "More" that's independent from the play commands.
13. Changed: The play roller in Theater View remembers the last used playback command (resets on program restart).
Mostly good changes in the latest build. There is two I have a few problems with though.
- The More roller is a good addition imo, but why does it contain play commands like next, play/pause when I expected to find it under the play (all) menu.
- The more roller does NOT remember the last item pressed, but the Play all rolled does. This is a problem for two reasons.
1. When the Play all roller just contains Play all, shuffle all and add all I don't see much of a point in those things being remembered. It expect that people that uses this commands mostly uses Play all. So the remembering for this roller is mostly useless I belive.
2. I've gotten the impression that most people here (looking at the posts) want either Play all or Playing now to be remembered. The More roller don't remember. People with just enter and arrow key remotes might also use Playing now, Next or Play/pause a lot. So why does not this one remember instead? Play all is allready at the top roller.
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- The more roller does NOT remember the last item pressed, but the Play all rolled does. This is a problem for two reasons.
1. When the Play all roller just contains Play all, shuffle all and add all I don't see much of a point in those things being remembered. It expect that people that uses this commands mostly uses Play all. So the remembering for this roller is mostly useless I belive.
Read above. Lots of people want this exact functionality. Add and Shuffle All will both be useful to me. However, I'd really prefer to see at least a few more of the other Play commands (especially the single-file "Adds") included under the Play All command.
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They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).
I just don't see it. All "normal" users with so many views they don't remember which they are in, or which of the many categories/levels they are in.
Sure there are those who uses our MC, but hopefully there are, or will be, more "normal" that uses this app for them self. Not just family and friends of us MC worshippers
I'm actually talking about the straight genre/artist/album view. People like me are effected by this idea for two reasons:
First, it's because we sometimes get "lost" as you said. We can't necessarily remember what genre a given artist is in once we're on that artist's albums (is it "Jazz" or "Blues" or perhaps even "Christmas"), or if we drilled into an "All" category, or the menu is currently set with something other than "genre" for the top level. The time it takes to quickly glance at the breadcrumb is much quicker and easier than navigating to the top to make the breadcrumb path appear and then navigate back down. Without the breadcrumbs, the process becomes really clumsy to me.
Second, it's sometimes not about the idea that we can't "figure out" which view we're in if we stop and think about it -- we can typically look at the list and deduce our position from what we see. The problem, once again, is that this is psychologically so "heavy." It takes "effort" that is not needed if the breadcrumbs are already visible.
I think that some people are prehaps not fully appreciating the idea that a seemingly small amount of extra work can really be "felt" by some of us, and it's frustrating when we're essentially told that the issue we're having is not really a problem. Just because something does not effect you personally it does not mean that it isn't a valid issue to someone else.
Larry
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Read above. Lots of people want this exact functionality. Add and Shuffle All will both be useful to me. However, I'd really prefer to see at least a few more of the other Play commands (especially the single-file "Adds") included under the Play All command.
Read carefully page 1 to 2 in the last days, and searched page 3 for shuffle and Add all. Hardly anyone mentioning they really need this two things remembered.
What I'm trying to say is that Play Now was allways at the top before, and it's probably the most used function of the 3 mentioned. A remember function would be more suited for the More roller as it have more commands like Playing Now, Play/Pause, skip etc, that people might use more often. I'm not saying that the remember function should be removed from the Play All roller. Just that it might be more usefull on the More roller, with the commands that's placed there.
By the way, how is single file actions on the rolles usefull? It would be a lot more buttons/commands. The only thing needed to do is to go down one level and use the All commands, would it not?
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I think that some people are just not understanding the idea that a seemingly small amount of extra work can really be "felt" by some of us, and it's frustrating when we're essentially told that the issue we're having is not really a problem. Just because something does not effect you personally it does not mean that it isn't a valid issue to someone else.
I see you're point. I don't use genre in TV my self. That's probably why I'm having a problem seeing this. I've reconsidered and I'll admit that it would not mind me one way or another. I can see both points. I just hope there is a way to turn it on or off. Either in the skin or in the options.
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I see you're point. I don't use genre in TV my self. That's probably why I'm having a problem seeing this. I've reconsidered and I'll admit that it would not mind me one way or another. I can see both points. I just hope there is a way to turn it on or off. Either in the skript or in the options.
Thanks for the feedback. I think that you hit upon the reason that some people don't really take this issue too seriously -- if you don't use the breadcrumbs in your style of navigatin, you won't really "feel" how useful this info can be to others.
I'm also holding out hope for the ability to turn it on or off, hopefully as an "option" rather than having to hack the file.
Larry
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Thanks for the feedback. I think that you hit upon the reason that some people don't really take this issue too seriously -- if you don't use the breadcrumbs in your style of navigatin, you won't really "feel" how useful this info can be to others.
I'm also holding out hope for the ability to turn it on or off, hopefully as an "option" rather than having to hack the file.
Larry
yes, you are right there. not only would it be nice to have the breadcrumbs there all the time. would make browsing easier. but estheticaly it would also improve thv. now there is this big empty line..
:)
gab
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estheticaly it would also improve Theater View. now there is this big empty line.
An empty line that "sometimes" has breadcrumb info on it and sometimes does not. My fear is that this itself will confuse people who aren't so familiar with the paradigm, i.e. "where did that info go that showed me my current position?"
Thanks for the feedback,
Larry
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estheticaly it would also improve Theater View. now there is this big empty line..
I think that is just one think we have to agree to disagree on that one :) Either way, I hope that you can make it possible to turn the line allways on or off unless selected, in the skin. Or better yet, as an option.
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I just want to chime in again and say that I totally agree with Larry. Breadcrumbs are absolutely useless unless they are always visible. Further, they are kind of a waste of potential too if they arent used as the navigation interface. Not only can they be used for going backwards and forwards, but they can also do it in the most user intuitive way (you can always see where you are giong back to).
Again, I'd also like to suggest that the breadcrumbs contain (slightly greyed out is fine) all the categories in a view. As you make choices in the list these category names would change to become "breadcrumbs" showing you what you chose. Here is an example:
I enter my "Movies" view. I can see the following in the breadcrumbs roller:
Genres Keywords Albums
As I make choices and filter into the list the breadcrumbs come to look like this:
Kung Fu Shaw Bros movies Albums
With the above example, anybody could open MC on my computer at any time and bowse my movies and and not be totally overwhelmed by all the lists that get thrown at them. All the info they need to see what they are doing is right up there for them to see.
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Also, if we had breadcumbs to navigate by, then we could remove "back" from the top roller and replace it with "Home" whcih would be really handy for jumping back to the top screen.
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Also, if we had breadcumbs to navigate by, then we could remove "back" from the top roller and replace it with "Home" whcih would be really handy for jumping back to the top screen.
Read above... I considered all the results of this in great detail.