INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 16 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: phusis on May 31, 2011, 07:41:52 pm
-
First: a big THANKS to the J River team for a wonderful media center, and being so invested in making it continually better. And now with the addition of Blu-ray playback I've found my ideal all-in-one media player.
Speaking of which: until recently I've used TotalMedia Theatre 3 Platinum for playing back my Blu-rays, but has always been somewhat annoyed by a lackluster 2-channel sound with limited LF(low frequency) capability. (I only use 2-channel sound, and so finds it a great audio option when Blu-rays feature a 2-channel LPCM track in addition to a possible multi-channel track.)
But now having tried out J Rivers Blu-ray playback, in 2-channel mode, it's very obvious that LF extention and power is much more pronounced, indeed unrestrained, compared to TotalMedia Theatre, and this of course makes me extremely happy - also being the (2-channel) audiophile that I am! Moreover sound quality in general from J River is a definate step-up. However, I've noticed the constant updates especially with regard to video decoding, and so I hope there won't be any future "downgrades" with regard to 2-channel sound in the audio department, for reasons that might perhaps prove beneficial to multichannel sound, and so this is just a little prayer of mine that the J River team will do what's in their power to at least maintain the great 2-channel sound(with unrestricted LF extention) found already!
Furthering: is there any way to maintain 24-bit audio playback from a multichannel track on a Blu-ray when being down-converted, if there isn't a dedicated 2-channel lossless track already, to 2-channel output? I'm just interested in the best 2-channel sound available via Blu-ray playback, and of course the best picture quality possible as well... :)
-
so I hope there won't be any future "downgrades" with regard to 2-channel sound in the audio department
Maintaining a first-class audiophile-quality playback system is a top priority for JRiver, and plenty of people here are 2 or 2.1 channel aficionados (not to mention the people who work there). I wouldn't worry about that.
-
Since you already own TotalMedia Theater Three Platinum, you can use its DTS-HD decoder with the LAV Audio Decoder to get 24-bit playback.
1. Download LAV Filters (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191) (this includes both a splitter and an audio filter). You should download the 32-bit zip file and extract it to a location of your choice. I use C:\Blu-ray\LAVFilters.
2. Copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from the TMT 3 installation to the LAV Filter folder.
3. Run the installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat file in the LAV Filter folder.
4. With version 16.0.100 or later of MC, go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings and set the DirectShow selection method to Red October with additional filters.
5. In the decoders section at the bottom of General Video Settings choose Blu-ray and add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters.
You will now get DTS-HD and TrueHD decoded properly and maintaining the 24-bit resolution.
If you are using a subwoofer I would go into the DSP Studio and set Output Format to 5.1 Channels, mixing to JRSS, and check move center to front L/R. This will give you the front soundstage from L/R, but won't mix the sides or rears into the fronts. I am using it this way in my office right now.
-
Since you already own TotalMedia Theater Three Platinum, you can use its DTS-HD decoder with the LAV Audio Decoder to get 24-bit playback.
1. Download LAV Filters (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191) (this includes both a splitter and an audio filter). You should download the 32-bit zip file and extract it to a location of your choice. I use C:\Blu-ray\LAVFilters.
2. Copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from the TMT 3 installation to the LAV Filter folder.
3. Run the installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat file in the LAV Filter folder.
4. With version 16.0.100 or later of MC, go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings and set the DirectShow selection method to Red October with additional filters.
5. In the decoders section at the bottom of General Video Settings choose Blu-ray and add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters.
You will now get DTS-HD and TrueHD decoded properly and maintaining the 24-bit resolution.
If you are using a subwoofer I would go into the DSP Studio and set Output Format to 5.1 Channels, mixing to JRSS, and check move center to front L/R. This will give you the front soundstage from L/R, but won't mix the sides or rears into the fronts. I am using it this way in my office right now.
Wow, many thanks for your über-cool help and instructions on getting the most of my 2-channel Blu-ray sound!! Can't wait to try it out, which unfortunately cannot be done until next week in that my remaining sound setup is right now "in limbo."
I didn't know my TotalMedia Theatre 3 Platinum contained a DTS-HD decoder, but that's just wonderful that it does, and that it can be used in conjunction with J River Media Center this way.
Thanks again!
Best,
M
-
2. Copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from the TMT 3 installation to the LAV Filter folder.
Hmm, how do I access this file?
-
Since you already own TotalMedia Theater Three Platinum, you can use its DTS-HD decoder with the LAV Audio Decoder to get 24-bit playback.
1. Download LAV Filters (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191) (this includes both a splitter and an audio filter). You should download the 32-bit zip file and extract it to a location of your choice. I use C:\Blu-ray\LAVFilters.
2. Copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll file from the TMT 3 installation to the LAV Filter folder.
3. Run the installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat file in the LAV Filter folder.
4. With version 16.0.100 or later of MC, go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings and set the DirectShow selection method to Red October with additional filters.
5. In the decoders section at the bottom of General Video Settings choose Blu-ray and add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters.
You will now get DTS-HD and TrueHD decoded properly and maintaining the 24-bit resolution.
If you are using a subwoofer I would go into the DSP Studio and set Output Format to 5.1 Channels, mixing to JRSS, and check move center to front L/R. This will give you the front soundstage from L/R, but won't mix the sides or rears into the fronts. I am using it this way in my office right now.
I found the dtsdecoderdll.dll.
However, when I tried to run the "installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat file" I got the following message:
The module "LAVAudio.ax" was loaded but the call to DllRegisterServer failed with error code 0x80070005.
Any idea how to get about that?
-
Run the "installs" as admin.
-
Run the "installs" as admin.
Hmm, I thought I was already doing that. Perhaps I'm not downloading the right file, and this is not for Windows 7(64-bit)?
-
Run the "installs" as admin.
It worked! Sorry, I right-clicked on the files and ran them as admin. I'm a blundering novice on these things...
Thanks!
-
5. In the decoders section at the bottom of General Video Settings choose Blu-ray and add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters.
mojave -
How do I "add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters."? Or rather where?
Best,
M
-
mojave -
How do I "add LAV Splitter as the Source Filter and LAV Audio Decoder to Other filters."? Or rather where?
Best,
M
I'm stuck here. Through where do I find this so-called 'Source Filter' and 'Other filters'? And how and where is the adding of the LAV Splitter and LAV Audio Decoder done?
In the bottom Video section under 'Decoders...' I've chosen Blu-ray, actually it was chosen already, and just below the 'Decoders...' section is the option 'Playback Method.' Is this where I'm supposed to add the LAV Splitter and Audio Decoder?
I would appreciate any help from hereon...
Best,
M
-
First, you need the 32-bit version and not the 64-bit version of LAV Filters. This is because MC is 32-bit.
Things keep changing with the new releases. With 16.0.101, you go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings. Under DirectShow Selection Method go to advanced and choose one of the Red October with additional filters option. Now at the bottom you should be able to select LAV Audio Filter under Other Filters. The source filter can be left to automatic. It will select LAV Splitter.
-
I just was doing some testing. Don't install LAV Splitter. Just install LAV Audio. LAV Splitter is used internally by MC when Red October is in use so you don't need to install it. For some reason the manual installation is causing a conflict.
-
First, you need the 32-bit version and not the 64-bit version of LAV Filters. This is because MC is 32-bit.
Things keep changing with the new releases. With 16.0.101, you go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings. Under DirectShow Selection Method go to advanced and choose one of the Red October with additional filters option. Now at the bottom you should be able to select LAV Audio Filter under Other Filters. The source filter can be left to automatic. It will select LAV Splitter.
I got the 32-bit version, so that's as it should be. And I've run the "installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat" as well. Red October with additional filters is chosen. I got the latest J River MC 16.0.101.
But it's from here I'm lost: "Now at the bottom you should be able to select LAV Audio Filter under Other Filters. The source filter can be left to automatic. It will select LAV Splitter."
The only two options at the bottom is 'Decoders, Renderers &...' and 'Playback Method,' and under none of these is there anything to be found of 'Other Filters.' Neither is there any sign of 'Source Filters.' That is: is see no options for LAV Audio Filter or LAV audio Splitter.
What could I have done wrong?
-
I just was doing some testing. Don't install LAV Splitter. Just install LAV Audio. LAV Splitter is used internally by MC when Red October is in use so you don't need to install it. For some reason the manual installation is causing a conflict.
I'm a bit confused now. How don't I install the LAV Splitter? The initial installation contains both LAV Splitter and LAV Audio.
I've just deleted LAV folder and uninstalled the installaudio.bat and the installfilter.bat files. Think it's better I start from scratch.
So, what is it I'm supposed to do now?
-
I just was doing some testing. Don't install LAV Splitter. Just install LAV Audio. LAV Splitter is used internally by MC when Red October is in use so you don't need to install it. For some reason the manual installation is causing a conflict.
Ok, now I've only run the install-audio batch file, and NOT the install-splitter batch file. Is that correct?
Still no sign of 'Other Filters' and LAV Audio...
-
First, you need the 32-bit version and not the 64-bit version of LAV Filters. This is because MC is 32-bit.
Things keep changing with the new releases. With 16.0.101, you go to Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings. Under DirectShow Selection Method go to advanced and choose one of the Red October with additional filters option. Now at the bottom you should be able to select LAV Audio Filter under Other Filters. The source filter can be left to automatic. It will select LAV Splitter.
Under 'Playback Method' I had to choose "J River video engine ...," and up came 'Source Filter' and 'Other Filters.'
However, under these options I can find no LAV Audio :(
-
Ok, now I've only run the install-audio batch file, and NOT the install-splitter batch file. Is that correct?
Yes, that is correct.
Here is what your screen should look like. If you click the drop down arrow to the right of Other Filters you can select LAV Audio Decoder. Did you change the DirectShow selection method under General Video Settings?
-
Yes, that is correct.
Here is what your screen should look like. If you click the drop down arrow to the right of Other Filters you can select LAV Audio Decoder. Did you change the DirectShow selection method under General Video Settings?
Thanks for the screen image. And yes, I've now made the change under General Video Settings.
But I can't find LAV Audio under 'Other Filters.' Could I have made a mistake somewhere?
-
Oh bugger, under 'Playback Method' I had to choose "J River video engine ...," and up came 'Source Filter' and 'Other Filters.'
Whoops! I forget about that step.
You might need some more files. Here is a quote from yesterday on the LAV Filters thread:
Note that 1.1.0.0 needs some special setup if you're using Win7, as it requires the 2003 edition of the MS C runtime, which does not have an installer for Win7, for some reason (msvcr71.dll and some other dll)
You need to get msvcr71.dll and msvcp71.dll and put them in the System32/SysWOW64 folder (on 32-bit or 64-bit systems respectively). You can google for those, multiple places to obtain them should show up.
Edit: The 1.1.0.0 referred to is the version of the dts decoder that came with TMT.
-
I checked my downloads folder and I downloaded and installed the Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 package. There used to be a link to it on the first page of the LAV Filters thread at doom9.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=a7b7a05e-6de6-4d3a-a423-37bf0912db84 (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=a7b7a05e-6de6-4d3a-a423-37bf0912db84)
-
I checked my downloads folder and I downloaded and installed the Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 package. There used to be a link to it on the first page of the LAV Filters thread at doom9.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=a7b7a05e-6de6-4d3a-a423-37bf0912db84 (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=a7b7a05e-6de6-4d3a-a423-37bf0912db84)
Thanks for all this. I've now downloaded the Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 package. Maybe I'm supposed to manually add the LAV Audio to the 'Other Files' section?
-
After installing C++ 2010, close MC and rerun install_audio.bat in the LAV folder to re-register it. Then open MC and see if it is in the list. The Other Filters should show all filters that are correctly registered.
-
After installing C++ 2010, close MC and rerun install_audio.bat in the LAV folder to re-register it. Then open MC and see if it is in the list. The Other Filters should show all filters that are correctly registered.
Just did as described by you, and still no LAV Audio under 'Other Filters.' :(
-
The VC2010 runtime should no longer be required with recent versions of LAV Splitter/LAV Audio, btw. (Thats why the download link disappeared)
-
[hands high in the air] It works - I've finally found the LAV Audio Decoder in 'Other Filters'!! ;D
Deleted the LAV Filter files and reloaded the whole darn thing, and then... finally :)
Will test sound sometime tomorrow.
-
Congratulations! :)
I did some testing and you can also put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in the Windows/System32 folder. This way if you update LAV Audio Decoder you won't need to place the file in the LAV folder. The LAV Audio Decoder will automatically find and use the DTS-HD decoder.
-
Congratulations! :)
I did some testing and you can also put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in the Windows/System32 folder. This way if you update LAV Audio Decoder you won't need to place the file in the LAV folder. The LAV Audio Decoder will automatically find and use the DTS-HD decoder.
mojave -
Thanks for above advice! :)
However, all is not well on the audio-front now with LAV Audio Decoder now up and running. Playing Baraka on Blu-ray, which sports 24-bit/96kHz sample freq. sound, there are sometimes small audio drop-outs, heard as the sound suddenly fading out and in, and at a certain place in the film(haven't checked out the entire film yet) it suddenly speeds up, as if fast-winding as few seconds through a scene, and the goes back to normal.
Moreover, today when trying out Criterion's Blu-ray edition of The Thin Red Line there's a longer scene of a sound-power conversation between Col. Tall and Capt. Staros, eventually having Col. Tall go nuts and Staros then "refuses to obey orders," and towards the end of that scene of the ongoing conversation Staros suddenly has to duck due to some mortars hitting just near by, and the last and nearest mortar hit, being the most powerfully sounding, caused my sound system to distort horribly (especially in the bass) just when the mortar impacts, almost sounding as if the voice coils of the bass units are bottoming out - and the sound level was in no way anywhere near the limit of the system. Startled by this I then played the scene again at a much lower volume, and it sounded just as horrible. Having Fox's European Blu-ray version as well I played that disc and particular scene also, and the same phenomenon sounded (horribly) through. What causes this distortion, even at very low volumes? I sounds as if a microphone is subjected with too loud a sound level, causing it to distort(sorry, English is not my first language, and I don't know how to describe this any further).
Later I tried out the French Blu-ray of Bright Star, and being that the film defaults to the dubbed French DTS HD MA track I then switched to the English DTS HD MA track, and noticed the sound level now being lower(?). Puzzled by this I switched back to the French track and the sound level was indeed again higher, then back to the English track (with a lower sound level) where I skipped through some scenes, and this suddenly had the sound become loud again, as on the French track, and then remained that way! I then inserted the Collateral(by Michael Mann) Blu-ray into my HTPC. The film started out with the DTS HD MA track, then I switched to the commentary track which became very loud, and then back again to the DTS HD MA track it started out with, only now the sound level remained the high level of the commentary track..!
I'm really confused about this, and something is definately wrong somewhere. Any suggestions would be welcome...
-
Which version are you using? There was a fix in 16.0.101 that corrected a problem with downmixing. Are you downmixing to stereo or just moving the center to the R and L speaker? If you don't have a subwoofer, you can set output for 5.1, turn JRSS on, and select Move center to front L/R. Then you can go to the Parametric EQ in the DSP Studio and add the subwoofer (LFE) to the left and right channels. This is sending everything to the mains except the surround channels. It might have better quality this way.
You could also add a high pass filter to protect the drivers of your L/R speakers. If there is low bass present, it can easily bottom out the drivers on mains even at lower volumes.
You can also try going to Tools > Options > Video > Audio for Video, DVD, & Television and make sure that Normalize volume is unchecked. This could be causing your issues. You could also uncheck VideoClock and see if that helps.
-
Which version are you using? There was a fix in 16.0.101 that corrected a problem with downmixing. Are you downmixing to stereo or just moving the center to the R and L speaker? If you don't have a subwoofer, you can set output for 5.1, turn JRSS on, and select Move center to front L/R. Then you can go to the Parametric EQ in the DSP Studio and add the subwoofer (LFE) to the left and right channels. This is sending everything to the mains except the surround channels. It might have better quality this way.
You could also add a high pass filter to protect the drivers of your L/R speakers. If there is low bass present, it can easily bottom out the drivers on mains even at lower volumes.
You can also try going to Tools > Options > Video > Audio for Video, DVD, & Television and make sure that Normalize volume is unchecked. This could be causing your issues. You could also uncheck VideoClock and see if that helps.
mojave -
Thanks for your response and advice on my issues.
I'm using the latest version, 16.0.105. I'm downmixing to stereo only, but being that I'm a 2-channel audiophile and listenes to a lot of music, and praises the very best sound quality here, won't outputting to 5.1 the way you describe affect the sound when listening to music only? I mean, is there a way to make a setting for video that doesn't affect music playback? Or will changing the setting in the DSP to 5.1(as you describe) not affect how my 2-channel music from the harddrive is played back? But it's an interesting change in setting up audio for video! I'll try it out, but won't maintain this setting if it affects music playback.
My speakers weren't bottoming out, it just sounded that way. Even when I turned down the volume to very low level the exact same distorting sound appeared as with higher levels. So, it's the signal that is somehow "clipped" or distorted unaffected by the actual sound pressure level I've chosen in playback.
What does the "Normalize volume" and "Videoclock" settings mean?
-
Selecting 5.1 doesn't output 5.1 unless JRSS is on and the box "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" is unchecked. The other channels are just blank when using a stereo source. However, if you are using an external two channel DAC it might not accept the signal so you will have to downmix to stereo. I use 7.1 channel soundcards in my computers so it isn't an issue.
You can read more here for:
Normalize Volume (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0)
VideoClock (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock)
-
Hmm, now this is strange. I just inserted The Thin Red Line Blu-ray again, and when starting the film I noticed the sound(default DTS HD MA) being rather low. Before trying out the scene that provokes the distorted sound in named scene, I switched to the commentary track and then back again, and now the sound level was higher than before!(as I experienced yesterday with Bright Star), and when I went to named scene the sound was OK - no distorted bass!
It would appear that when inserting a Blu-ray the sound level is too low, but when switching between tracks the sound level is "corrected" to what appears the intended playback level. Strange. I'll just try some more discs, and see if the phenomenon repeats itself...
-
Selecting 5.1 doesn't output 5.1 unless JRSS is on and the box "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" is unchecked. The other channels are just blank when using a stereo source. However, if you are using an external two channel DAC it might not accept the signal so you will have to downmix to stereo. I use 7.1 channel soundcards in my computers so it isn't an issue.
You can read more here for:
Normalize Volume (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0)
VideoClock (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/VideoClock)
I can't access the "Normalize Volume," but got a little wiser on the other link, though the titel 'VideoClock' is sort of self-explanatory..
I use an external USB-based DAC, yes, so your proposed setting may not work. But, as is, when reaching the intended(or so I gather) sound level from switching between tracks, the sound quality is really great!
-
Same happens with the WALL-E Blu-ray. When starting the film the default DTS DH MA track sounds rather low, but switching to another track and then back fixes it - the volume level becomes higher to what I would regard the intended level.
But why is this switching back and forth between tracks necessary the achieve the desired sound level?
-
More oddities coming up:
Just inserted Baraka Blu-ray, and it starts out with default DTS HD MA(24-bit/96kHz) and low volume. I check the DSP and it states '2 channels 96000Hz.' I then switch to another track and back again, and the sound again becomes higher in volume, but now the DSP states '2 channels 48000Hz'?? And yes, I've yet again chosen the DTS HD MA track which sports 96kHz sampling frequency, which was stated by DSP to begin with, but now is "downconverted" to 48kHz. I can't see the bit depth, but maybe it has been downconverted to 16-bit as well, even though the whole idea with LAV Audio Decoder was to maintain full bit depth and sampling frequency, and which seems to be maintained when I start up disc, only to be downconverted when switching back and forth between tracks.
?
-
You need to go back and make sure you are using the LAV Audio Decoder and it is decoding the DTS-HD. While playing a movie, right click on the screen and select "DirectShow Filters." It should show you the filters being used. If LAV Audio Decoder is being used, then select it to go to the properties. The status tab will show if you are decoding DTS HD.
If it isn't using the LAV Audio Decoder, you need to recheck your DirectShow selection method under Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings.
-
You need to go back and make sure you are using the LAV Audio Decoder and it is decoding the DTS-HD. While playing a movie, right click on the screen and select "DirectShow Filters." It should show you the filters being used. If LAV Audio Decoder is being used, then select it to go to the properties. The status tab will show if you are decoding DTS HD.
If it isn't using the LAV Audio Decoder, you need to recheck your DirectShow selection method under Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings.
Thanks. When doing this the status tab shows me that when starting out Baraka(playing with lower volume) it does indeed output in 24-bit/96kHz and with the LAV Audio Decoder working. However, when I switch to another track and back again to the DTS HD MA track the LAV Audio decoder is now disabled, and to get it to work again I have to stop the film, and start it again(playing again with lower volume, and other problems)!
And yes, I recheck as you describe, but the settings shows me the LAV Audio Decoder is there and chosen. Do I need to configure the LAV Audio Decoder differently?
EDIT: When playing back The Thin Red Line Blu-ray, and starting out the disc with the default DTS HD MA(and the status tab confirming 24-bit DTS HD MA) track with lower volume, the distorted bass sound is there again.
-
These sound problems are a bit saddening :( At all times when inserting a Blu-ray disc the volume is now rather low, and only shifting back and forth between tracks brings up the volume level, though at the cost of DTS HD MA sound - at least fully flexed - but without the distorted bass sound from The Thin Red Line.
There are some definate problems with the sound setup here(video). Regular 2-channel music playback sounds perfect - no problems there.
-
These sound problems are a bit saddening :( At all times when inserting a Blu-ray disc the volume is now rather low, and only shifting back and forth between tracks brings up the volume level, though at the cost of DTS HD MA sound - at least fully flexed - but without the distorted bass sound from The Thin Red Line.
There are some definate problems with the sound setup here(video). Regular 2-channel music playback sounds perfect - no problems there.
Hi Thought i might chime in here,
I too am a high end 2 channel only guy.
I completely agree, the volume of 5.1 to 2 channel mixdown from JRSS (surround) is far too low. adding normalize volume is not a great solution, as it's another process in the audio stream and find it sounds messy. i think that the channel gains in JRSS mixdown need to be louder. Also, i have same audio distortion issues playing blu-ray, and it's not due to high audio output. seems when all of the 5.1 channels in the stream are active, it happens. this is when using TrueHD. I've tried J rivers own default filters, and LAV audio filter, same thing.
DVD audio works great when i have RO off, and let Directshow Audio filter doing the mixdown (normalize volume OFF in both j river and directshow audio mixdown matrix) JRSS off and set to 2 Ch output in J River audio options.
I'm using the latest J river version.
-
I completely agree, the volume of 5.1 to 2 channel mixdown from JRSS (surround) is far too low.
When you combine 6 channels into 2, you have to reduce the volume or there could be clipping. You might read a little about normalizing mixing matrixes. There's no mathematical way around this without adding a dynamic range compressor (which an audiophile like myself would hate) or allowing clipping (also bad).
adding normalize volume is not a great solution, as it's another process in the audio stream and find it sounds messy.
Turning up the volume or using normalization is the solution. There's nothing "messy" about normalization. You might read more here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0
-
When you combine 6 channels into 2, you have to reduce the volume or there could be clipping. You might read a little about normalizing mixing matrixes. There's no mathematical way around this without adding a dynamic range compressor (which an audiophile like myself would hate) or allowing clipping (also bad).
Turning up the volume or using normalization is the solution. There's nothing "messy" about normalization. You might read more here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0
Hi Matt,
unable to use this link above.
What about increasing gains in JRSS and using a brickwall limiter for the short peaks to avoid clipping? or is this what your normalize does already? very curious of the mixdown process and appreciate the help.
-
Hi Matt,
unable to use this link above.
Sorry. Try again:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0
What about increasing gains in JRSS and using a brickwall limiter for the short peaks to avoid clipping? or is this what your normalize does already? very curious of the mixdown process and appreciate the help.
I don't think brick walling or clipping is a good default in an audiophile solution.
However, you can add a fixed gain with Parametric Equalizer to achieve this. Overflow handling (at the bottom of DSP Studio) can be configured to brick wall or to turn down the volume on overflow.
Before doing this, I would recommend at least trying the dedicated normalization feature.
-
Sorry. Try again:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64174.0
I don't think brick walling or clipping is a good default in an audiophile solution.
However, you can add a fixed gain with Parametric Equalizer to achieve this. Overflow handling (at the bottom of DSP Studio) can be configured to brick wall or to turn down the volume on overflow.
Before doing this, I would recommend at least trying the dedicated normalization feature.
Thanks Matt,
Just to check, when using normalize volume, are the stream channel gains increased back to near normal at the JRSS mixdown stage, or are the channel gains always set low regardless, and the normalize adds another gain increase process later on?
I now know what normalize volume does, reduces volume at peaks and remains at the gain till file is released and then is reset, but i'm curious of the gain process at the mixdown.
should i be posting here, or at link suggested?, Thanks again
-
Just to check, when using normalize volume, are the stream channel gains increased back to near normal at the JRSS mixdown stage, or are the channel gains always set low regardless, and the normalize adds another gain increase process later on?
I'm not sure I understand the question completely, but since the entire audio chain is 64-bit floating point, from an audio quality perspective it's irrelevant where in the chain the volume happens or the total number of volume changes. You could do a single volume or a million different volumes that summed to the same final volume and you'd still have millions of times more precision left than any equipment can use.
I now know what normalize volume does, reduces volume at peaks and remains at the gain till file is released and then is reset, but i'm curious of the gain process at the mixdown.
should i be posting here, or at link suggested?, Thanks again
You can think of the normalizer as a volume knob. When the video starts, the volume is up a ways. If it turns out that having the volume that high will cause a clip (and it might never cause a clip), the knob is turned down. Once the knob is turned down, it never turns up again for that file.
While turning the volume back up might be a nice feature, it then becomes a dynamic range compression feature and not a strict normalizer. There's a place for both, but I personally want something the claims unused headroom in the signal by turning the volume up if possible but leaves the full dynamic range intact.
-
I'm not sure I understand the question completely, but since the entire audio chain is 64-bit floating point, from an audio quality perspective it's irrelevant where in the chain the volume happens or the total number of volume changes. You could do a single volume or a million different volumes that summed to the same final volume and you'd still have millions of times more precision left than any equipment can use.
Yeah, that's what i was getting at. I guess i have the notion, that any digital volume is bad, is why i never use replaygain, or computer digital volumes, but I know it can't be helped in a mixdown process.
You can think of the normalizer as a volume knob. When the video starts, the volume is up a ways. If it turns out that having the volume that high will cause a clip (and it might never cause a clip), the knob is turned down. Once the knob is turned down, it never turns up again for that file.
While turning the volume back up might be a nice feature, it then becomes a dynamic range compression feature and not a strict normalizer. There's a place for both, but I personally want something the claims unused headroom in the signal by turning the volume up if possible but leaves the full dynamic range intact.
I'm with you there, and is how i thought the process is. No compressor is a good thing, I agree.
Do you think in future builds, there'll be an option for a non-surround mixdown. i.e. all channels sent directly to L+R untouched (except for gain)?
-
With build 16.0.108, LAV Audio Decoder is now the default decoder for Red October HQ. If you manually installed the splitter and decoder, you should delete them and use the internal versions. I tested and verified that all you need to do is put the ArcSoft dtsdecoder.dll file in the Windows > System32 folder and MC will decode the DTS-HD track.
Also new with build 16.0.108 is the ability to adjust the gain on a channel that is being moved, copied, or added.
NEW: Parametric Equalizer's channel mixer allows applying a volume modification when moving, copying, or adding channels
-
Also new with build 16.0.108 is the ability to adjust the gain on a channel that is being moved, copied, or added.
best news ever, allowing users to map audio stream channels to any other channel. But i just tried it, can't get it to work. I've 'moved' all 7.1 channels to the L+R only but J river still clicks over to 2 channel (cause that's my audio device) and JRSS as if it's sensing a muti channel stream. If i change JRSS to off, i only have L and R. Be great to have in the DSP settings, format as 'Source Number Of Channels' left on, and map our own 5.1 to 2 channels in the parametric eq plugin..
-
The output DSP always comes first. If I set my output to 5.1 with JRSS off I can remix and sent the correct info to the front two channels and set the others as silent. However, I have a mulitichannel soundcard.
An option should be added to the parametric EQ that allows you to sent output as stereo based on L and R. You might also be able to add a two channel VST plugin that will take just the L and R and send them out as a stereo signal. You wouldn't have use the VST except to route through it. I think this happened a while ago for me with a two channel VST plugin.
-
The output DSP always comes first. If I set my output to 5.1 with JRSS off I can remix and sent the correct info to the front two channels and set the others as silent. However, I have a mulitichannel soundcard.
An option should be added to the parametric EQ that allows you to sent output as stereo based on L and R. You might also be able to add a two channel VST plugin that will take just the L and R and send them out as a stereo signal. You wouldn't have use the VST except to route through it. I think this happened a while ago for me with a two channel VST plugin.
Ah, i see. Yeah it would would be a great to have output last if you order it that way in the plugin selection on the left of the dsp screen. It's not possible to choose 5.1 in the output, as my usb dac is only 2 channel, so creating a 2ch stream in P EQ pre output would be ideal
-
Have a DTSHD audio question. when playing a blu ray, right clicking and choosing stream, the DTS-HD is only running at 1536kbs. this doesn't seem to be the full lossless 24/28 stream, but the DTS core lossy stream? any idea why not getting full lossless stream? Bitstreaming is turned off and just using wasapi to audio device, if needed to know.
-
anyone have idea? or is it that the bit rate that showing is wrong in the stream selection?
Thanks
-
Have a DTSHD audio question. when playing a blu ray, right clicking and choosing stream, the DTS-HD is only running at 1536kbs. this doesn't seem to be the full lossless 24/28 stream, but the DTS core lossy stream? any idea why not getting full lossless stream? Bitstreaming is turned off and just using wasapi to audio device, if needed to know.
The stream selection menu will only ever display that info regardless of if the full DTS-MA or the just the core is being decoded. The good news is RO uses LAVAudio which CAN decode the full lossless DTS-MA stream at full bit rate and depth if you simply add the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder!
-
The stream selection menu will only ever display that info regardless of if the full DTS-MA or the just the core is being decoded. The good news is RO uses LAVAudio which CAN decode the full lossless DTS-MA stream at full bit rate and depth if you simply add the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder!
excellent news thanks.
would you know, using dtsdecoder.dll, is it decoding at full 24bit?
-
Full everthing pending on the source including up to 24 Bit/96khz (I dont have any 192K stuff but I presume it does that as well)
-
Full everthing pending on the source including up to 24 Bit/96khz (I dont have any 192K stuff but I presume it does that as well)
seems maybe not outputting at 24bit. i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top. DolbyHD comes up with 24bit, but all DTSHD seems to be downgraded to 16bit, at least what the info is saying.
-
Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?
-
Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?
yes i've added it.
-
Then it is getting used as long as LAVAudio is in the filter list. What do you mean by "i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top"
-
Then it is getting used as long as LAVAudio is in the filter list. What do you mean by "i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top"
the main customisable info display window at the top of media centre that show artist, songs etc etc. i added 'bit depth' so i can see when using 16 and 24 bit files. it also works for video audio stream. dolbyhd shows 24bit, but dts hd shows 16bit.
also, i could only find dtsdecoderdll.dll, not dtsdecoder.dll??
-
Ahh got you. MC shows 16Bit as that is what LAVSplitter returns as it can only see that the stream is DTS-MA and not what is actually in it (though nevcairiel may be able to expand on this). The trick that LAVFilter does is if the dtsdecoder.dll is available it passes the stream over to this dll for decoding.
-
By bad - the file is "dtsdecoderdll.dll"
-
would be great to get the LAV info property box in the right click directshow filter menu (when watching video) like pic below. you used to be able to, but now it's greyed out
-
Thanks for your help :)
-
Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?
An update to LAV by MC16 may cause this folder to be overwritten. You can put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in Windows\System 32 (for 32-bit OS) or Windows\SysWOW64 (for 64-bit OS) and LAV will use it. I have tested with Red October using the internal LAV install and it works fine.
-
An update to LAV by MC16 may cause this folder to be overwritten. You can put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in Windows\System 32 (for 32-bit OS) or Windows\SysWOW64 (for 64-bit OS) and LAV will use it. I have tested with Red October using the internal LAV install and it works fine.
cool, i've put it in both places just incase.
so even though 16bit is showing in the info window, it is playing at 24bit output?
-
so even though 16bit is showing in the info window, it is playing at 24bit output?
There are some 16 bit DTS-HD audio tracks. However, even if it is showing 16 bit and you know the track is 24 bit, it will decode it at 24 bits.
-
I'm hoping that one day, MC's DSP studio will show what the input format (as well as the current output format is), then you will be able to really see what is happening - I've put the request to JR.
-
ah yes, dsp showing bit rate of original stream would be awesome!
thanks so much for the help!! J River really is the be all and end all! :)
-
Just wondering, is LAV decoder now doing full 24bit dts decoding on blu ray, or do i still need to put dtsdecoderdll.dll in the lav folder?
-
I'm hoping that one day, MC's DSP studio will show what the input format (as well as the current output format is), then you will be able to really see what is happening - I've put the request to JR.
I second this request :)
Just wondering, is LAV decoder now doing full 24bit dts decoding on blu ray, or do i still need to put dtsdecoderdll.dll in the lav folder?
You still need the .dll in the lav or system32 folder (both is fine)
nev has indicated that he has no immediate plans to write a decoder for DTS-HD audio. I think there are no public specs, so it'd have to be reverse engineered. I think he'd like to do it one day, but it sounds far, far, away.
so, you're safe to leave that file there for the foreseeable future :)
-
thanks :)
-
Hello,
I have read this thread and still confused on how to get best possible 2 channel blu-ray sound.
My output format is 2 channel with JRSS V2 surround sound. General Video settings, DirectShow Red October standard, no hardware accelerate or normalize volume or bitstreaming.
Am I missing something? Is there a step by step guide?
Many thanks in advance!
-
Hello all,
now for a follow-up with some issues regarding the 2-channel Blu-ray sound/video in my set-up.
With many, if not most of my Blu-ray films(with either DTS HD MSTR, PCM or TrueHD sound) I'm experiencing severe distortion, or rather clipping issues, particularly in the bass region, whenever very dynamic outbursts occur. These issues take place regardless is of the main volume level, and is therefore not an issue with my hardware; it seems the 2-channel Blu-ray sound output is simply (mixed?) too high(could this have to do with mutiple channels being mixed down to 2 channels in full HD-sound?), and this courses especially powerful bass outputs to result in a nasty sounding clipping of the sound, as if one would "override" a microphone screaming into it. There's a particular Danish term for the distortive/clipping issue I'm addressing, but I can't find the suitable English word for it. I believe "clipping" is the most fitting term here. I once, at an earlier point also addressed in this thread, had this issue with one Blu-ray film in particular, namely Malick's The Thin Red Line, a problem that was later corrected and now still represents no problem(?). The problem on the other hand now seems to have become a general issue with most of my films containing dynamic outbursts(in the bass), the latest example being the scene towards the end of David Fincher's Fight Club, where the skyscrapers are pulverized. I must stress that music play-back is flawless(i.e. unobstructed, and with full dynamic headroom, even with high res files), as has always been the case, so no issues here. I'm using the very latest version of MC16, and I've experienced named problem for several months now. I'd rather refrain from using the "clipping protection" in the DSP as I believe named issue should be correctable at a fundamental level, i.e. where the problem arises.
Yesterday I played back the Leonard Cohen Blu-ray, Songs from the road, in glorious 2-channel 24-bit/96kHz PCM sound, and my NuForce D/A-converter DAC-9 rightly displayed 96 kHz sampling frequency. However, when I play back the film Baraka with its DTS HD MSTR 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 sound, my DAC-9 only diplays 48 kHz? Why isn't the sampling frequency maintained here? Furthering: will there be a way to truthfully verify the bit-depth and sample rate (within the MC enginie) when playing back Blu-ray's as is the case with music playback? And yes, I've copied the dtsdecoder file into the system 32 folder, and using Red October standard as video renderer - if that's of importance here.
Hoping for some help here.
Best,
M
-
Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Connection_Type
Then describe your MC settings in some detail.
-
Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Connection_Type
Then describe your MC settings in some detail.
Sorry I wasn't more specific - am writing from work and couldn't remember all my settings. Will get back later today..
Thanks for your reply.
Best,
M
-
MY MC AUDIO SETTINGS:
- Output mode: Kernel Streaming
- Output mode settings: Buffer at lowest value(0.05 sec.) with music/0.30 sec. when playing back Blu-ray's
- DSP & output format: Sample rate - No resampling; Bitdepth - 24-bit; Channels - 2 channels (stereo); Mixing - JRSS v2.0; "Flat line overflows" selected (default)
EDIT: "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" and "Move center to front L/R" are both un-marked.
(No other DSP processing is used/selected)
- Prebuffering: 6 seconds
- Play silence.. bla bla bla: None
- Play files from memory instead of disk: Yes
I guess the above should suffice with regard to audio settings, or..?
GENERAL VIDEO SETTINGS:
- Directshow... : Red October Standard
- Hardware acceleration: No
- Bitstreaming: None
- Videoclock: No
- Normalize volume: No
My DAC-9 in windows set-up is a non-default device, and allowed exclusive access. Changes in source bitdepth and sample rate are automatically "assimilated" by the DAC-9; hence exclusive mode is a reality.
-
Any updates on above inquiry of mine?
This is not a trivial issue. The distortion/clipping (particularly, or maybe even exclusively audible in the bass region) that occurs in dynamic sequences is very annoying, making many Blu-ray's unwatchable over these scenes, which in effect hampers the film experience as a whole. Surely this is not acceptable?
From what I'm able to gather my stereo-system, both hard- and software, is set up properly, and should as such induce no problems. As I've mentioned above it sounds like the HD multi-track signal from the Blu-ray is down-mixed to 2 channels with too high an output, at least in the bass region, making strong bass notes sounding severely "clipped." I have yet to try out or detect my Blu-ray's containing inherent(i.e.: not down-mixed) 2-channel PCM or DTS-HD 2.0 tracks and whether they can provoke the same problem, but most of these discs are of a quieter sonic nature.
Again: the problem occurs independently of volume level, meaning even at a very low(barely audible) volume levels the bass clipping(let's just call it that), where it's provoked, is easily heard. This tells me the problem occurs at source/mixing/output level.
I would appreciate the inputs of others who may have experienced the same problem(i.e. bass clipping) with 2-channel Blu-ray HD play-back.
EDIT: In DSP under 'Subwoofer' the option "Source is correctly mastered for +10dB calibration" is marked. Could this be the problem, or won't it affect play-back with my settings as shown above?
Best,
M
-
"Flat line overflows" selected (default)
This disables the automatic clipping prevention. Have you even tried the Clip Protection setting? (I think Clip Protection is actually the default mode.)
"Source is correctly mastered for +10dB calibration"
I think this makes MC to amplify the relative volume level of the LFE channel by +10 dB before downmixing the channels to 2.0. The assumption is that when a separate output LFE channel with a subwoofer is available, it is calibrated to play 10 dB louder than the other channels. Standard DD and DTS audio tracks are mastered to take this into account.
When the output is downmixed to a stereo speaker pair MC should know that a calibrated subwoofer does not exist and it should apply the relative +10 dB boost to the source LFE signal. AFAIK, MC is supposed to automatically adjust the level so that the downmixed signal does not clip, but I don't know if that works correctly or if the "Flat line overflows" setting can disable this compensation.
In any case the final volume level inside the DSP chain must reduced to not clip and to maintain the desired volume level the volume must be increased accordingly after the digital domain - usually by turning the knob on the amp (or its remote controller). Naturally the stereo amp & speakers must be able to handle this +10 dB "subwoofer boost".
Again: the problem occurs independently of volume level, meaning even at a very low(barely audible) volume levels the bass clipping(let's just call it that), where it's provoked, is easily heard. This tells me the problem occurs at source/mixing/output level.
Have you tried the Internal Volume option (Player > Volume > Internal Volume)? It should be able to prevent clipping when the level is reduced with the volume slider (e.g. by about 10 dB or more) because it works before truncating the output to integer bit depth.
-
Alex B -
Thanks for your reply.
This disables the automatic clipping prevention. Have you even tried the Clip Protection setting? (I think Clip Protection is actually the default mode.)
I have tried the clipping protection setting, yes, and it works. However, when this feature is enabled and the clipping protection is effectuated during very dynamic sequences, the sound continues to be muted for several seconds or even minuts past the dynamic scenes, meaning the sound level keeps being turned down over quiet scenes in a weird way making especially voices sound low, muffled and indistinct. In other words the dynamic spectrum is severely hampered, as is the sound in general, and surely this is not my idea of maintaining the quality of the soundtrack, let alone seeing the volume level turned up and down over the course of the film. That's why I've kept this setting disabled. Until a few months ago, can't remember which build, I didn't encounter the clipping problem with Blu-ray playback and the clipping setting turned off. This must be a problem that occurs at the source/mixing/output level, and I would hope that's where the problem will be solved instead of filtering/manipulating the signal later in the chain, so to speak.
Thanks for your fine description of some of the technicalities of the +10dB calibration, and how it's supposed to work. I don't know where it leaves me though with regard to an initiative that could help the clipping issue; this seems to be the work of the MC-crew, and maybe they're the ones you're really addressing here.
And again: my hardware set-up(stereo poweramp + speakers) is more than capable. My speakers sport PA units(12" bass and 1" compression driver), a system sensitivity of 98dB and are capable of handling 3-400 watts AES (RMS), and the (analog switching) poweramp delivers some 200 watts(continuous) into them. I don't know the limits of this system, never even been remotely close, and I have no intention(i.e.: dares not) to find out :)
Have you tried the Internal Volume option (Player > Volume > Internal Volume)? It should be able to prevent clipping when the level is reduced with the volume slider (e.g. by about 10 dB or more) because it works before truncating the output to integer bit depth.
Hmm, haven't tried out that option, but I can't see how that would prevent the clipping issue. I'll look into it when I get home from work..
To sum up: I hope above clipping issue can be ironed out without the need for clipping protection which, as is, is not an acceptable solution to me.
-
However, when I play back the film Baraka with its DTS HD MSTR 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 sound, my DAC-9 only diplays 48 kHz?
I just checked a Blu-ray clip I have of Baraka and it stays as 96 kHz in my system.
I used a VST frequency analyzer (Voxengo SPAN) and the 2 channel down mix does look like it is clipping. You can also see this using the Analyzer DSP. In all the Blu-ray portions that I tried, it only clips in the bass frequencies when using 2 channel output.
By adding the Parametric Equalizer into the chain you can lower the overall mix by adding "Adjust the Volume" and selecting -12dB for the L & R channels. You could also use the Equalizer and set the Pre-Amp to -12dB. Try one of these methods and see if you still detect clipping. Make sure you have activated the DSP by checking the box to the left of the DSP name.
-
There is a bug that can cause JRSS down-mixing to be too hot. Normalization of the down-mixing system was not occurring. This will be fixed in a coming build.
As for levels, it's always a balance between volume (good) and clipping (bad). With version 16, we switched to an approach that assumes sources are incoherent when normalizing instead of (possibly) coherent. The net result is higher volume, but also the possibility of clipping in rare perfect-storm type conditions. For this reason, it's recommend to leave 'Clip protection' enabled in DSP Studio. It has no effect unless the signal crosses over 100%.
-
The normalization may also need to be checked for bass management. I just checked a number of movies with Output Mode in 5.1 and bass moved with an 80 Hz crossover. I used some bass heavy clips and recorded the maximum peak level below.
Peak Levels
Flight of the Phoenix - 191%
Iron Man - 121%
How To Train Your Dragon - 180%
Cloverfield - 156%
Inception - 160%
Star Trek - 153%
Battle: L. A. - 108%
Master & Commander - 118%
Hulk - 173%
Percy Jackson - 130%
War of the Worlds - 151%