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[Blaine78]

anyone have idea? or is it that the bit rate that showing is wrong in the stream selection?

Thanks

[jmone]

Have a DTSHD audio question. when playing a blu ray, right clicking and choosing stream, the DTS-HD is only running at 1536kbs. this doesn't seem to be the full lossless 24/28 stream, but the DTS core lossy stream? any idea why not getting full lossless stream? Bitstreaming is turned off and just using wasapi to audio device, if needed to know.

The stream selection menu will only ever display that info regardless of if the full DTS-MA or the just the core is being decoded.  The good news is RO uses LAVAudio which CAN decode the full lossless DTS-MA stream at full bit rate and depth if you simply add the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder!

[Blaine78]

The stream selection menu will only ever display that info regardless of if the full DTS-MA or the just the core is being decoded.  The good news is RO uses LAVAudio which CAN decode the full lossless DTS-MA stream at full bit rate and depth if you simply add the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder!

excellent news thanks.
would you know, using dtsdecoder.dll, is it decoding at full 24bit?

[jmone]

Full everthing pending on the source including up to 24 Bit/96khz (I dont have any 192K stuff but I presume it does that as well)

[Blaine78]

Full everthing pending on the source including up to 24 Bit/96khz (I dont have any 192K stuff but I presume it does that as well)

seems maybe not outputting at 24bit. i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top. DolbyHD comes up with 24bit, but all DTSHD seems to be downgraded to 16bit, at least what the info is saying.

[jmone]

Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?

[Blaine78]

Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?

yes i've added it.

[jmone]

Then it is getting used as long as LAVAudio is in the filter list.  What do you mean by  "i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top"

[Blaine78]

Then it is getting used as long as LAVAudio is in the filter list.  What do you mean by  "i'm using 'bit depth' info in the main J river tag/info bar at the top"

the main customisable info display window at the top of media centre that show artist, songs etc etc. i added 'bit depth' so i can see when using 16 and 24 bit files. it also works for video audio stream. dolbyhd shows 24bit, but dts hd shows 16bit.
also, i could only find dtsdecoderdll.dll, not dtsdecoder.dll??

[jmone]

Ahh got you.  MC shows 16Bit as that is what LAVSplitter returns as it can only see that the stream is DTS-MA and not what is actually in it (though nevcairiel may be able to expand on this).  The trick that LAVFilter does is if the dtsdecoder.dll is available it passes the stream over to this dll for decoding.

[jmone]

By bad - the file is "dtsdecoderdll.dll"

[Blaine78]

would be great to get the LAV info property box in the right click directshow filter menu (when watching video) like pic below. you used to be able to, but now it's greyed out

[Blaine78]

Thanks for your help

[mojave]

Have you manually added the Arcsoft "dtsdecoder.dll" to the "C:\Users\USERNAME\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 16\Plugins\lav" folder?

An update to LAV by MC16 may cause this folder to be overwritten. You can put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in Windows\System 32 (for 32-bit OS) or Windows\SysWOW64 (for 64-bit OS) and LAV will use it. I have tested with Red October using the internal LAV install and it works fine.

[Blaine78]

An update to LAV by MC16 may cause this folder to be overwritten. You can put the dtsdecoderdll.dll file in Windows\System 32 (for 32-bit OS) or Windows\SysWOW64 (for 64-bit OS) and LAV will use it. I have tested with Red October using the internal LAV install and it works fine.

cool, i've put it in both places just incase.
so even though 16bit is showing in the info window, it is playing at 24bit output?

[mojave]

so even though 16bit is showing in the info window, it is playing at 24bit output?

There are some 16 bit DTS-HD audio tracks. However, even if it is showing 16 bit and you know the track is 24 bit, it will decode it at 24 bits.

[jmone]

I'm hoping that one day, MC's DSP studio will show what the input format (as well as the current output format is), then you will be able to really see what is happening - I've put the request to JR.

[Blaine78]

ah yes, dsp showing bit rate of original stream would be awesome!
thanks so much for the help!! J River really is the be all and end all!

[Blaine78]

Just wondering, is LAV decoder now doing full 24bit dts decoding on blu ray, or do i still need to put dtsdecoderdll.dll in the lav folder?

[JustinChase]

I'm hoping that one day, MC's DSP studio will show what the input format (as well as the current output format is), then you will be able to really see what is happening - I've put the request to JR.

I second this request

Just wondering, is LAV decoder now doing full 24bit dts decoding on blu ray, or do i still need to put dtsdecoderdll.dll in the lav folder?

You still need the .dll in the lav or system32 folder (both is fine)

nev has indicated that he has no immediate plans to write a decoder for DTS-HD audio.  I think there are no public specs, so it'd have to be reverse engineered.  I think he'd like to do it one day, but it sounds far, far, away.

so, you're safe to leave that file there for the foreseeable future

[Blaine78]

thanks   

[Mitchco]

Hello,

I have read this thread and still confused on how to get best possible 2 channel blu-ray sound.

My output format is 2 channel with JRSS V2 surround sound.  General Video settings, DirectShow Red October standard, no hardware accelerate or normalize volume or bitstreaming.

Am I missing something?  Is there a step by step guide?

Many thanks in advance!

[phusis]

Hello all,

now for a follow-up with some issues regarding the 2-channel Blu-ray sound/video in my set-up.

With many, if not most of my Blu-ray films(with either DTS HD MSTR, PCM or TrueHD sound) I'm experiencing severe distortion, or rather clipping issues, particularly in the bass region, whenever very dynamic outbursts occur. These issues take place regardless is of the main volume level, and is therefore not an issue with my hardware; it seems the 2-channel Blu-ray sound output is simply (mixed?) too high(could this have to do with mutiple channels being mixed down to 2 channels in full HD-sound?), and this courses especially powerful bass outputs to result in a nasty sounding clipping of the sound, as if one would "override" a microphone screaming into it. There's a particular Danish term for the distortive/clipping issue I'm addressing, but I can't find the suitable English word for it. I believe "clipping" is the most fitting term here. I once, at an earlier point also addressed in this thread, had this issue with one Blu-ray film in particular, namely Malick's The Thin Red Line, a problem that was later corrected and now still represents no problem(?). The problem on the other hand now seems to have become a general issue with most of my films containing dynamic outbursts(in the bass), the latest example being the scene towards the end of David Fincher's Fight Club, where the skyscrapers are pulverized. I must stress that music play-back is flawless(i.e. unobstructed, and with full dynamic headroom, even with high res files), as has always been the case, so no issues here. I'm using the very latest version of MC16, and I've experienced named problem for several months now. I'd rather refrain from using the "clipping protection" in the DSP as I believe named issue should be correctable at a fundamental level, i.e. where the problem arises.

Yesterday I played back the Leonard Cohen Blu-ray, Songs from the road, in glorious 2-channel 24-bit/96kHz PCM sound, and my NuForce D/A-converter DAC-9 rightly displayed 96 kHz sampling frequency. However, when I play back the film Baraka with its DTS HD MSTR 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 sound, my DAC-9 only diplays 48 kHz? Why isn't the sampling frequency maintained here? Furthering: will there be a way to truthfully verify the bit-depth and sample rate (within the MC enginie) when playing back Blu-ray's as is the case with music playback? And yes, I've copied the dtsdecoder file into the system 32 folder, and using Red October standard as video renderer - if that's of importance here.

Hoping for some help here.

Best,
M

[JimH]

Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Connection_Type

Then describe your MC settings in some detail. 

[phusis]

Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Connection_Type

Then describe your MC settings in some detail. 

Sorry I wasn't more specific - am writing from work and couldn't remember all my settings. Will get back later today..

Thanks for your reply.

Best,
M

[phusis]

MY MC AUDIO SETTINGS:

- Output mode: Kernel Streaming

- Output mode settings: Buffer at lowest value(0.05 sec.) with music/0.30 sec. when playing back Blu-ray's

- DSP & output format: Sample rate - No resampling; Bitdepth - 24-bit; Channels - 2 channels (stereo); Mixing - JRSS v2.0; "Flat line overflows" selected (default)

EDIT: "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" and "Move center to front L/R" are both un-marked.

(No other DSP processing is used/selected)

- Prebuffering: 6 seconds

- Play silence.. bla bla bla: None

- Play files from memory instead of disk: Yes

I guess the above should suffice with regard to audio settings, or..?

GENERAL VIDEO SETTINGS:

- Directshow... : Red October Standard

- Hardware acceleration: No

- Bitstreaming: None

- Videoclock: No

- Normalize volume: No

My DAC-9 in windows set-up is a non-default device, and allowed exclusive access. Changes in source bitdepth and sample rate are automatically "assimilated" by the DAC-9; hence exclusive mode is a reality.

[phusis]

Any updates on above inquiry of mine?

This is not a trivial issue. The distortion/clipping (particularly, or maybe even exclusively audible in the bass region) that occurs in dynamic sequences is very annoying, making many Blu-ray's unwatchable over these scenes, which in effect hampers the film experience as a whole. Surely this is not acceptable?

From what I'm able to gather my stereo-system, both hard- and software, is set up properly, and should as such induce no problems. As I've mentioned above it sounds like the HD multi-track signal from the Blu-ray is down-mixed to 2 channels with too high an output, at least in the bass region, making strong bass notes sounding severely "clipped." I have yet to try out or detect my Blu-ray's containing inherent(i.e.: not down-mixed) 2-channel PCM or DTS-HD 2.0 tracks and whether they can provoke the same problem, but most of these discs are of a quieter sonic nature.

Again: the problem occurs independently of volume level, meaning even at a very low(barely audible) volume levels the bass clipping(let's just call it that), where it's provoked, is easily heard. This tells me the problem occurs at source/mixing/output level.

I would appreciate the inputs of others who may have experienced the same problem(i.e. bass clipping) with 2-channel Blu-ray HD play-back.

EDIT: In DSP under 'Subwoofer' the option "Source is correctly mastered for +10dB calibration" is marked. Could this be the problem, or won't it affect play-back with my settings as shown above?

Best,
M

[Alex B]

"Flat line overflows" selected (default)

This disables the automatic clipping prevention. Have you even tried the Clip Protection setting? (I think Clip Protection is actually the default mode.)

"Source is correctly mastered for +10dB calibration"

I think this makes MC to amplify the relative volume level of the LFE channel by +10 dB before downmixing the channels to 2.0. The assumption is that when a separate output LFE channel with a subwoofer is available, it is calibrated to play 10 dB louder than the other channels. Standard DD and DTS audio tracks are mastered to take this into account.

When the output is downmixed to a stereo speaker pair MC should know that a calibrated subwoofer does not exist and it should apply the relative +10 dB boost to the source LFE signal. AFAIK, MC is supposed to automatically adjust the level so that the downmixed signal does not clip, but I don't know if that works correctly or if the "Flat line overflows" setting can disable this compensation.

In any case the final volume level inside the DSP chain must reduced to not clip and to maintain the desired volume level the volume must be increased accordingly after the digital domain - usually by turning the knob on the amp (or its remote controller). Naturally the stereo amp & speakers must be able to handle this +10 dB "subwoofer boost".

Again: the problem occurs independently of volume level, meaning even at a very low(barely audible) volume levels the bass clipping(let's just call it that), where it's provoked, is easily heard. This tells me the problem occurs at source/mixing/output level.

Have you tried the Internal Volume option (Player > Volume > Internal Volume)? It should be able to prevent clipping when the level is reduced with the volume slider (e.g. by about 10 dB or more) because it works before truncating the output to integer bit depth.

[phusis]

Alex B -
 
Thanks for your reply.
 

This disables the automatic clipping prevention. Have you even tried the Clip Protection setting? (I think Clip Protection is actually the default mode.)

I have tried the clipping protection setting, yes, and it works. However, when this feature is enabled and the clipping protection is effectuated during very dynamic sequences, the sound continues to be muted for several seconds or even minuts past the dynamic scenes, meaning the sound level keeps being turned down over quiet scenes in a weird way making especially voices sound low, muffled and indistinct. In other words the dynamic spectrum is severely hampered, as is the sound in general, and surely this is not my idea of maintaining the quality of the soundtrack, let alone seeing the volume level turned up and down over the course of the film. That's why I've kept this setting disabled. Until a few months ago, can't remember which build, I didn't encounter the clipping problem with Blu-ray playback and the clipping setting turned off. This must be a problem that occurs at the source/mixing/output level, and I would hope that's where the problem will  be solved instead of filtering/manipulating the signal later in the chain, so to speak.

Thanks for your fine description of some of the technicalities of the +10dB calibration, and how it's supposed to work. I don't know where it leaves me though with regard to an initiative that could help the clipping issue; this seems to be the work of the MC-crew, and maybe they're the ones you're really addressing here.

And again: my hardware set-up(stereo poweramp + speakers) is more than capable. My speakers sport PA units(12" bass and 1" compression driver), a system sensitivity of 98dB and are capable of handling 3-400 watts AES (RMS), and the (analog switching) poweramp delivers some 200 watts(continuous) into them. I don't know the limits of this system, never even been remotely close, and I have no intention(i.e.: dares not) to find out

Have you tried the Internal Volume option (Player > Volume > Internal Volume)? It should be able to prevent clipping when the level is reduced with the volume slider (e.g. by about 10 dB or more) because it works before truncating the output to integer bit depth.

Hmm, haven't tried out that option, but I can't see how that would prevent the clipping issue. I'll look into it when I get home from work..

To sum up: I hope above clipping issue can be ironed out without the need for clipping protection which, as is, is not an acceptable solution to me.  

[mojave]

However, when I play back the film Baraka with its DTS HD MSTR 24-bit/96kHz 5.1 sound, my DAC-9 only diplays 48 kHz?

I just checked a Blu-ray clip I have of Baraka and it stays as 96 kHz in my system.

I used a VST frequency analyzer (Voxengo SPAN) and the 2 channel down mix does look like it is clipping. You can also see this using the Analyzer DSP. In all the Blu-ray portions that I tried, it only clips in the bass frequencies when using 2 channel output.

By adding the Parametric Equalizer into the chain you can lower the overall mix by adding "Adjust the Volume" and selecting -12dB for the L & R channels. You could also use the Equalizer and set the Pre-Amp to -12dB. Try one of these methods and see if you still detect clipping. Make sure you have activated the DSP by checking the box to the left of the DSP name.

[Matt]

There is a bug that can cause JRSS down-mixing to be too hot.  Normalization of the down-mixing system was not occurring.  This will be fixed in a coming build.

As for levels, it's always a balance between volume (good) and clipping (bad).  With version 16, we switched to an approach that assumes sources are incoherent when normalizing instead of (possibly) coherent.  The net result is higher volume, but also the possibility of clipping in rare perfect-storm type conditions.  For this reason, it's recommend to leave 'Clip protection' enabled in DSP Studio.  It has no effect unless the signal crosses over 100%.

[mojave]

The normalization may also need to be checked for bass management. I just checked a number of movies with Output Mode in 5.1 and bass moved with an 80 Hz crossover. I used some bass heavy clips and recorded the maximum peak level below.

Peak Levels
Flight of the Phoenix - 191%
Iron Man - 121%
How To Train Your Dragon - 180%
Cloverfield - 156%
Inception - 160%
Star Trek - 153%
Battle:  L. A. - 108%
Master & Commander - 118%
Hulk - 173%
Percy Jackson - 130%
War of the Worlds - 151%