INTERACT FORUM
Devices => Sound Cards, DAC's, Receivers, Speakers, and Headphones => Topic started by: mwillems on March 06, 2014, 09:00:36 am
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I use my AVR the same way, most processing is in MC. The advantage over a multi-channel AMP is that I also get a decent DAC in the AVR without buying an expensive sound card.
I would actually wish for a simpler setup without HDMI, but alas there are no proper digital connections available to do it which also support up to 8 channel 192/24 (maybe a USB DAC could, but 8ch at decent quality sounds pricey), and analog requires a good sound card...
Depends on what you mean by pricey. There are currently nice 8 channel 192/24 USB DACs floating around in the $700-$800 range. Emotiva makes a pretty nice 7 channel standalone amp for $500. So, assuming you have a powered sub, you're talking about 1.2k to 1.5k for the DAC and AMP. That's not cheap, but depending on the AVR you're talking about, it may be comparable, and it has some advantages over a pure AVR solution (better electrical specs, more format flexibility, no HDMI monitor issues, etc.).
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Out of iternest, could you give a couple of examples? Just tried Googling but it didn't really turn up anythign of relevance, at kleast not here in UK.
The Steinberg UR824 is the one I'm most familiar with (because I own one) http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audio_interfaces/ur_series/models/ur824.html. You can usually get them for between $700 and $800 if you watch the prices (amazon is currently offering it for $799). When it shipped it was only rated for 96KHz, but a subsequent firmware upgrade made it fully 192KHz capable (which is reflected on Steinberg's site). I think there are one or two other pro audio interfaces in that range as well.
Also, if you don't mind unbalanced 3.5mm outputs, the new Asus Xonar U7 is a 7.1 USB DAC that will also do 192/24 for about $200 http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_U7/ . It has pretty good electrical specs too, but I'd bet the driver support isn't great (based on my other Asus soundcard adventures).
If 96KHz is enough, there are pretty nice 8-channel interfaces in the $500 range (focusrite 18i20) and medium nice 8-channel interfaces in the $300 range (the behringer FCA610)
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Also, if you don't mind unbalanced 3.5mm outputs, the new Asus Xonar U7 is a 7.1 USB DAC that will also do 192/24 for about $200 http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_U7/ . It has pretty good electrical specs too, but I'd bet the driver support isn't great (based on my other Asus soundcard adventures).
I've actually recently bought that one although a friend of mine said that he didn't think it was doing a good job of the analogue conversion, either that or the AVR doesn't sound anywhere near as good via its direct external-decoder inputs than on its normal stereo analogue inputs (which is counter-intuitive - it tends to suggest it's doing some processing on the normal inputs that makes it perform better than on the unprocessed "pure direct" inputs). I couldn't really hear the difference, but that shows you how subjective audio quality is.
That's why I was intrigued by a "proper" multichannel DAC rather than what is effectively a soundcard.
Thank you for the pointers, will copy-and-save!
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Depends on what you mean by pricey. There are currently nice 8 channel 192/24 USB DACs floating around in the $700-$800 range. Emotiva makes a pretty nice 7 channel standalone amp for $500. So, assuming you have a powered sub, you're talking about 1.2k to 1.5k for the DAC and AMP. That's not cheap, but depending on the AVR you're talking about, it may be comparable, and it has some advantages over a pure AVR solution (better electrical specs, more format flexibility, no HDMI monitor issues, etc.).
Thats in a similar price range as my AMP was, thanks for pointing thouse out, a bit of googling only turned up >$3k 8 channel USB DACs.
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Thats in a similar price range as my AMP was, thanks for pointing thouse out, a bit of googling only turned up >$3k 8 channel USB DACs.
You must have found http://www.exasound.com/ :)
Have a look at Motu http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UltraLite3Hy
RME Fireface: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb12/articles/fireface-ucx.htm
In general the typical pro-brands offer multi channel at affordable prices
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You must have found http://www.exasound.com/ :)
Have a look at Motu http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UltraLite3Hy
RME Fireface: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb12/articles/fireface-ucx.htm
In general the typical pro-brands offer multi channel at affordable prices
There is also the Behringer Firepower FC1616 (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/FCA1616.aspx) which has Firewire and USB connectivity with 8 channels of output all for $250 USD.
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I wonder if I should move all the DAC talk to its own thread, since I'm really interested in opinions on the models, but don't want to mess up Jims thread too much.... :)
Well, I'll sleep on it, its nearly tomorrow again.
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A little topic drift is not uncommon :)
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Well, now that Jim has already split it, might as well start asking questions - as I already didn't manage to go sleep on time as I was researching these things.
What I'm looking for is a 8 channel USB DAC to power a small home theater, both for music and movies. More channels might be nice for future extensibility, but I realize that is really pushing it. :)
I'm no audiophile, and don't need high-end gear as I would never hear the difference anyway, but since this stuff isn't plagued by the constant upgrades of HDMI, it might as well be something decent that lasts me for a long time to come.
Nice bonus features would be at least one (better two) S/PDIF optical inputs as well.
96/24 is OK, 192/24 would be great, but I won't be too picky.
A decent AVR costs $1000-1500, so in that range I would like to squeeze the DAC and a power amp.
I have been really liking what I've read about the Steinberg UR824 which mwillems mentioned as one of the higher priced devices, or the Focusrite 18i20 more in the mid range - but I wonder if those aren't overkill already.
The Behringer Firepower FC1616 is much cheaper, as it's an entry-level device, but some reviews said "average audio" - not that I would ever hear the difference, but once you've read it, you cannot unread it!
So, anyone with experience or other options for someone trying to free himself from the clutches of HDMI? :)
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Well, now that Jim has already split it, might as well start asking questions - as I already didn't manage to go sleep on time as I was researching these things.
What I'm looking for is a 8 channel USB DAC to power a small home theater, both for music and movies. More channels might be nice for future extensibility, but I realize that is really pushing it. :)
I'm no audiophile, and don't need high-end gear as I would never hear the difference anyway, but since this stuff isn't plagued by the constant upgrades of HDMI, it might as well be something decent that lasts me for a long time to come.
Nice bonus features would be at least one (better two) S/PDIF optical inputs as well.
96/24 is OK, 192/24 would be great, but I won't be too picky.
A decent AVR costs $1000-1500, so in that range I would liked to squeeze the DAC and a power amp.
I have been really liking what I've read about the Steinberg UR824 which mwillems mentioned as one of the higher priced devices, or the Focusrite 18i20 more in the mid range - but I wonder if those aren't overkill already.
The Behringer Firepower FC1616 is much cheaper, as its an entry-level device, but some reviews said "average audio" - not that I would ever hear the difference, but once you've read it, you cannot unread it!
So, anyone with experience or other options for someone trying to free himself from the clutches of HDMI? :)
The Steinberg does quite a lot; it checks all your boxes, and is very low noise (117dB SNR). It also has an ADAT in/out which would allow you to hook a second Steinberg up in series with it and have 16 channels out if you decide you need the extra channels at a future date. That kind of modularity is what makes separate interfaces (as opposed to integrated AVRs) nice.
The focusrite would also check most of your boxes, has an ADAT in/out for expansibility, but is slightly higher noise than the steinberg (not much) and doesn't support 192KHz.
The Behringer is a very attractive deal, but there are a few things about it that make it less than optimal for some setups. Here's a review where someone measured one: http://en.audiofanzine.com/external-audio-interface/behringer/firepower-fca1616/editorial/reviews/behringer-gives-its-interfaces-the-midas-touch.html. The electrical specs are good, but not amazing: .005% THD+N and 100dB SNR on the outputs is certainly not bad, but if you have sensitive speakers, you might notice that noisefloor with a high gain amplifier (with very sensitive speakers it might be a real problem). For comparison, that's about 17dB worse than the Steinberg, which is considerable (about 50 times as much noise). For another comparison point, "nicer" motherboard DACs typically have an SNR in the middle/low 80's (and typically sound kind of nasty), so the Behringer is probably about 15 to 20dB lower noise than typical MoBo audio. If I were you, I'd try to figure out the SNR of the DACs in your current receiver, to give you a calibration on what sounds good in your setup currently.
Also, according to a Behringer rep over on the gearslutz board, they don't recommend/can't support syncing two of the behringer 1616's together via ADAT, which doesn't speak well to their internal routing/ clocking interface. So the Behringer might not be "expansible" out to 16 channels like the other two interfaces. It also only supports up to 96KHz.
I think the Behringer would work in an 8 channel output scenario, but it has some limitations that the other devices don't have. I've also read enough in the Behringer support threads that I probably would wait a bit before buying one (they just introduced the interface late last year, and seem to be working through a little QC). I haven't personally talked to anyone with ears on experience of one, though.
If I were starting over right now, I'd probably be on the fence between the Focusrite and the Steinberg. I haven't used the Focusrite, but if the specs are honest, you're not giving up much by picking it over the Steinberg, and it's significantly cheaper. Matt actually grabbed one of the Focusrite's last year, and he seemed to like it a lot. For my part, I've had zero complaints with the Steinberg.
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A decent AVR costs $1000-1500, so in that range I would like to squeeze the DAC and a power amp.
What is the benefit of a multi-channel USB DAC over a decent AVR? Get a used Parasound pre and amp. Best Ive heard for the money. Or just get a decent Yamaha or Denon?
-Patrick
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Well, I'll sleep on it, its nearly tomorrow again.
Morning's at my window and she is sending me to bed again.
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What is the benefit of a multi-channel USB DAC over a decent AVR?
Primarily getting rid of the limitations and issues of HDMI.
I hate how I can't simply listen to music while the TV is off, and I've recently had issues with HDMI handshakes again where the audio/video would sporadically flicker on/off - which is too sporadic to really debug it, either.
Not to mention that I'll need a new AVR latest when HDMI 2.0 is finally here for 4K, and who knows when I'll need one again after for some new HDMI thing...
And I don't use the AVR for anything else, not even processing the audio - i leave that up to MC.
@mwillems:
Thanks for the additional insight, I'll dig a bit further into the focusrite. I'm not in a hurry really, but I know that I get easily excited and impatient when new stuff is in my reach, so I have to pace myself....... ;)
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Primarily getting rid of the limitations and issues of HDMI.
I hate how I can't simply listen to music while the TV is off, and I've recently had issues with HDMI handshakes again where the audio/video would sporadically flicker on/off - which is too sporadic to really debug it, either.
I listen to music all the time without the TV on, using Gizmo for control. My connection is PC > Receiver > TV. All HDMI. I have occasional problems. Power cycling the receiver usually fixes it. Sometimes I find that Windows volume controls have been muted.
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That works on some systems, depending how the AVR behaves. It works sometimes for me, but not reliably. When I just pick up my phone and tell Gizmo to play something on the audio system, I want a 100% success rate. :)
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Maybe a bit far fetched but if you go the multi channel DAC way, you might ponder skipping the poweramp and use active speakers instead.
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I am looking at getting a relatively affordable power amp, which wouldn't navigate me into any corners and still gives me the flexibility to get active speakers later. Good speakers are far more expensive.
I requested a quote for international delivery from Emotiva regarding their 7 channel amp, which would be a good entry point to keep using my current speakers for now.
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I am looking at getting a relatively affordable power amp, which wouldn't navigate me into any corners and still gives me the flexibility to get active speakers later. Good speakers are far more expensive.
I requested a quote for international delivery from Emotiva regarding their 7 channel amp, which would be a good entry point to keep using my current speakers for now.
Hendrik; one thing to be aware of with the UPA 700 (which I assume is the one you're looking at) is that it only has unbalanced RCA inputs. So if you're planning to get a DAC with balanced outputs, you'll need to figure in the cost of TRS or XLR to RCA adapter cables if you don't have any on hand. They're readily available, and probably won't be a huge expense (probably less than $50, depending on the length of the cable runs and what you already have on hand), but something to factor into your cost analysis. You'll be giving up the advantage of a balanced signal, but if your cable run is short that shouldn't make a huge difference.
You probably already thought about that, but I only mention it because I wound up spending a bit more than anticipated on cabling when I discovered that the steinberg had TRS outs, but I'd built my DIY amps with XLR inputs (d'oh!)
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Yes, i saw this. I'll probably put both into a small rack, so cable runs will be very short. Probably going to get 1m cables.
I looked around for a few other power amp options, but the prices skyrocket real easy there.... :) The Emotiva seems like a perfect fit, granted it doesn't have all that much power to scale up if ever need be, but its affordable and does seem to have a real good value for that money as well.
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Yes, i saw this. I'll probably put both into a small rack, so cable runs will be very short. Probably going to get 1m cables.
I looked around for a few other power amp options, but the prices skyrocket real easy there.... :) The Emotiva seems like a perfect fit, granted it doesn't have all that much power to scale up if ever need be, but its affordable and does seem to have a real good value for that money as well.
It's definitely a bargain, with nice specs, that's for sure.
For most commercial speakers you really don't need that much power anyway. Most home listening really only requires a watt (or less) from the amp; you just need extra power for headroom/transient peaks. If your speakers have a sensitivity at least in the low 90's dB at 1W/1 Meter, that emotiva will get you to reference-level volumes (83 dB) with 20dB of headroom no problem. You may already be familiar, but I've always found this calculator very helpful for figuring out the interplay of sensitivity, distance, power, and headroom: http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm.
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Behringer has sometimes had a bad reputation due to their low prices that I think is unfounded. NwAvGuy is known for his DAC testing and has a blog entry (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html) for the UCA202 that is interesting.
I would probably take two of the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000's (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NU4-6000/) over the Emotiva for a few reasons:
- 8 channels of high power vs 7 channels
- you can power a subwoofer off 1 channel
- you can optimize your SNR with pro audio gear by having high voltage out from the DAC and lower the gain controls on the amp
- the gain of the Emotiva is fixed at 29dB which I feel is too high for the Steinberg UR824 (which I own)
- fully balanced signal
- flexibility for handling speakers with different sensitivities
- can handle higher input voltage
The downside is the fans can be noisy. I've disconnected the fans on one of my pro amps and it never even gets warms since the actual wattage use is so low.
I have two nu6000's, one nu6000DSP, and one nu3000 sitting here in my office that are going in a home theater soon.
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Behringer has sometimes had a bad reputation due to their low prices that I think is unfounded. NwAvGuy is known for his DAC testing and has a blog entry (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html) for the UCA202 that is interesting.
I would probably take two of the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000's (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/NU4-6000/) over the Emotiva for a few reasons:
- 8 channels of high power vs 7 channels
- you can power a subwoofer off 1 channel
- you can optimize your SNR with pro audio gear by having high voltage out from the DAC and lower the gain controls on the amp
- the gain of the Emotiva is fixed at 29dB which I feel is too high for the Steinberg UR824 (which I own)
- fully balanced signal
- flexibility for handling speakers with different sensitivities
- can handle higher input voltage
The downside is the fans can be noisy. I've disconnected the fans on one of my pro amps and it never even gets warms since the actual wattage use is so low.
I have two nu6000's, one nu6000DSP, and one nu3000 sitting here in my office that are going in a home theater soon.
Those are good points; the iNukes are an amazing deal, and I'm obviously a big fan of class D amplification. The emotivas do have a high fixed gain which might require some input attenuation to work nicely with pro output DACs. The balanced inputs on the iNuke, in particular, would be a big sales point for me.
I've owned a lot of behringer products over the years, and I agree that their bad reputation is greatly exaggerated. The main thing I've noticed is that some of their devices are incredible bargains that are world beaters in their price range (the dcx 2496, the iNukes, the UCA202), while others have not been particularly good quality, or even good bargains (the CX 3400, their pre-amps, their microphones). The hard part is figuring out which face of behringer you're going to see with any given device (unless you have helpful friends who already own one, or you can find reliable third party measurements of one).
And Behringer, at least historically, has had QC problems. I know the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I've personally had to RMA an unusual number of defective-on-arrival Behringer devices over the years (especially microphones), and it took one of my friends four return shipping cycles to get a working DCX 2496. But when they work, they tend to keep on working, and I still buy Behringer products when the price and specs are right because I've always eventually gotten a working model out of the experience. And they've been working hard on QC issues, and are now offering 3 year warranties on many products, which is encouraging.
In fact I was musing about an iNuke myself for a new multi-driver sub project I'm starting later this year. I'm glad to hear the iNuke's are mojave approved ;D
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Bonus points for Behringer for being a German company, which at least means I can get their components here directly, while Emotiva ships from the US.
However, they would also cost around twice as much (from local prices). Being a German company doesn't mean its actually cheaper here, for some reason. ?
Well, something to ponder on.
I like how such a setup gets much easier to upgrade individually, instead of a AVR where buying a high-end device does not seem really worth it since it'll last 2-3 years until a new HDMI version is out and needs an upgrade.
I'm pretty much settled on the Focusrite 18i20 now, but the weekend presents a good time to do more homework on the subject.
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Well, something to ponder on.
I like how such a setup gets much easier to upgrade individually, instead of a AVR where buying a high-end device does not seem really worth it since it'll last 2-3 years until a new HDMI version is out and needs an upgrade.
Modularity is the name of the game, and it's very liberating to be able to upgrade piecewise or add as needed.
If you do end up going with the Emotiva instead of the Behringer, mojave's definitely right, you may wind up with some "excess" gain from the "pro-level" line outputs of the focusrite. The consequences of that would be twofold: 1) the noisefloor of the focusrite may be more audible than it otherwise would be (it will be amplified by the high fixed gain on the amp) and 2) you may overdrive the amp's inputs/drive the amp into clipping if you're not careful with the DAC volume control (the emotiva seems to be expecting a "consumer" line-level signal, which is usually much lower power than a "pro" line-level signal). And as mojave noted, those two things can lead to some 2nd order consequences as well (if you turn the DAC's digital volume control way down to try not to overdrive the inputs, you compromise your DAC's effective SNR that way).
If that's your situation, the solution to both problems is an inline passive line-level attenuator between the DAC and the amp; that will improve the effective SNR (i.e. bring the noisefloor back down where it should be), and will help make it harder (or impossible) to overdrive the inputs. You can figure out the exact amount of attenuation you need to be in the "safe zone" based on the Focusrite's max output, the Emotiva's input sensitivity, and personal taste about software volume controls. If you can't decide on a fixed attenuation, they even make "switchable" ones that have two or three different attenuation settings. I use a 10dB passive attenuator myself these days between the Steinberg and my amps, partly because it allows me to turn the Steinberg all the way up (optimizing the DAC's SNR), and also for safety's sake, because my amps are fixed gain block amplifiers.
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have a Exasound E-18 and a E-28 dac...does all formats up to 384khz and dsd 256x bitstreaming. Work a thread with JRiver and sounds really good....BTW if someone is interested in buying the E18 just PM me...as I'll sell it out.
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Primarily getting rid of the limitations and issues of HDMI.
Why do you have to use HDMI? Why not Optical or SPDIF?
HDMI from video source to HDTV.
Optical or SPDIF to AVR or DAC for Audio.
-patrick
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SPDIF is stereo only.
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Gotcha,
you do multi-channel music?
-p
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I went with a NU6000DSP for my outside (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87156.0)build as it was just stereo (but driving a pair in parallel) and the amp handles the low impediance load without an issue. I have to say you get a long of stuff for the $ with Behringer yet it does not feel or sound "cheap". A pair of NU4-6000's is a good suggestion (each NU4-6000 is a "pair" of NU-3000 in one box) if you want the equivalent of 8 Mono Blocks!
Thanks
Nathan
PS I went for the NU6000DSP for the DSP and that it could drive speakers in parrelel anyway and the NU4 was harder and more expensive to get here in Australia.
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Gotcha,
you do multi-channel music? Thinking.... I get dolby passthru with SPDIF. is this different?
-p
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I like extending music through all my speakers, yes. I know the music purists would crucify me for that, but what can you do.
Also, I watch a lot of movies as well, where surround is essential for me.
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Also, if you don't mind unbalanced 3.5mm outputs, the new Asus Xonar U7 is a 7.1 USB DAC that will also do 192/24 for about $200 http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_U7/ . It has pretty good electrical specs too, but I'd bet the driver support isn't great (based on my other Asus soundcard adventures).
I have an Asus Essence ST internal soundcard with H6 Daughter board for 8 channel analog out. It is surprisingly good for an inexpensive card. When Mojave had one he changed op amps to make the high end a little more comfortable. I'm using it with Klipschorns which are very revealing speakers and have been pleased though at age 72 my high frequency hearing isn't what it used to be . I have been using the Unified Drivers http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/comment-page-129/#comments instead of the Asus ones. Been using it for about 3 years without problem. Unfortunately it's no longer made.
The new external Asus $200 external USB one is probably very similar. Since it doesn't sound like you are a raving audiophile you might just be quite pleased with this and save some real money.
Good luck.
Rod
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I have an Asus Essence ST internal soundcard with H6 Daughter board for 8 channel analog out. It is surprisingly good for an inexpensive card. When Mojave had one he changed op amps to make the high end a little more comfortable. . . . Unfortunately it's no longer made.
I was going to post earlier and suggest the Essence ST and H6. I am currently using it in my work computer. I probably should have just kept it in my HTPC since I kind of went down a rabbit hole with trying other stuff out. For unbalanced output, it is probably one of the best options (and if you have a PCI slot available with an extra space for the H6).
The Essence HT is still available from newegg.com and probably lots of other places. There are several vendors on Amazon with the H6 in stock.
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I was going to post earlier and suggest the Essence ST and H6. I am currently using it in my work computer. I probably should have just kept it in my HTPC since I kind of went down a rabbit hole with trying other stuff out. For unbalanced output, it is probably one of the best options (and if you have a PCI slot available with an extra space for the H6).
The Essence HT is still available from newegg.com and probably lots of other places. There are several vendors on Amazon with the H6 in stock.
I also have an Asus Essence ST and H6, and I still use it in my study setup. If you have two PCI slots it's potentially a good solution (although the new Asus 7.1 external card is around the same price). The only reason I didn't recommend the ST/H6 myself was that it was much too noisy for some very sensitive speakers I own (113dB sensitivity). I was getting fairly loud hiss out of them with the ST/H6, which is why I ultimately replaced the ST in my main system with the Steinberg (which pushed the hiss down to an almost inaudible level).
Asus's electrical specs indicated that the ST should've been significantly lower noise than the Steinberg (ST=124dB SNR v. the Steinberg's 117dB SNR), not the other way around. I took some rough measurements of the ST, and confirmed that its rated specs were not achievable inside the two computers I tested it in. I was getting about a 100dB SNR when I measured, rather than the advertised 124dB, and that's consistent with what stereophile got when they measured the ST as well (102dB): http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements. So there are only three explanations: 1) the ST's electrical specs are rather exaggerated (even by the admittedly loosey-goosey standards of hi-fi specs), 2) Asus didn't measure the ST for the rated specs when the card was actually inside a computer, or 3) my two computers (and stereophile's test rig) were all unusually EMI-ridden computers. The last option is certainly possible, but even then, how would one control for that and ensure that one could get the rated specs when buying the card?
In fairness to the ST/H6, it sounds great with less sensitive speakers that I've tested it with, but I just felt a little burned about a noise spec that was more than 20dB off, when the noise performance was one of the main reasons I bought the card. That said, a 100dB SNR is still respectable, and would probably be just fine for the majority of speakers (most speakers have a sensitivity 15 to 25dB lower than my horn drivers).
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Your noise issue is very interesting. My Klipschorns are I believe rated at 103 Db or thereabouts. While that's 10 DB down from yours the Khorns are still way higher sensitivity than the majority of the speakers out there. Anyway mine are totally quiet until I get within 1 foot. Even then the noise is at a very low level.
So as mwillems concluded above the Essence ST noise level would probably be fine for most speakers.
It would be very interesting to get some feedback on the new Asus external card. It would save internal space in the PC and possibly be quieter.
Cheers,
Rod
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Your noise issue is very interesting. My Klipschorns are I believe rated at 103 Db or thereabouts. While that's 10 DB down from yours the Khorns are still way higher sensitivity than the majority of the speakers out there. Anyway mine are totally quiet until I get within 1 foot. Even then the noise is at a very low level.
My hiss was faintly audible from 12 feet away with nothing playing, and distractingly loud when within 3 or 4 feet with quiet music. That level of hiss was fine from the couch, but not so great from my easy chair.
The noise profile you're describing with the KHorns is more or less exactly what my system had with the Steinberg out of the box (I later added input attenuators on my amp, and now I don't even have that level of hiss anymore).
The difference between the Steinberg's rated SNR and the ST SNR measurements is about 15dB or so, so the 10dB difference in sensitivity between our systems would account for most of the difference in our perceived ST noise profiles; the remainder (5dB) may just mean that you have a lower noise PC than me ;D
So as mwillems concluded above the Essence ST noise level would probably be fine for most speakers.
Certainly sounds that way, the KHorns are (still!) nearly the best in the industry for pre-fab speaker sensitivity. I've always loved KHorns, I was thinking hard about buying a used pair before I started my own DIY horn speakers thinking it would be a fun project and that I'd save some money.
I'm very happy with the results, and it was a fun project (sometimes), but let's just say that my savings were not as much as initially projected :-[
It would be very interesting to get some feedback on the new Asus external card. It would save internal space in the PC and possibly be quieter.
Cheers,
Rod
Agreed. I've been waiting for a reviewer (or some enterprising audiophile) to measure one.
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In case anyone was wondering, I've decided to purchase the Focusrite 18i20 now. It should get here this week.
On the Amp, I went with the Emotiva after all, even if I have to import it from the US, its still like 40% of the price of two 4x amps or anything else decent (and that is including the passive attenuators I got on top). The bonus is that the Emotiva has a decent re-sell value in Germany, since they are pretty hard to get (only direct US import from Emotiva themself), so if I ever want something else, I can probably sell it for a decent price.
While I have everyones attention, how do you guys control power to these devices?
Previously I simply used a master/slave power line, and when I turned on the old AVR with my remote, it would power up the active sub and everything else. Sadly no remote control for the 18i20 that could take over the job.
I wonder how much energy the stuff pulls when no audio is playing...
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While I have everyones attention, how do you guys control power to these devices?
Previously I simply used a master/slave power line, and when I turned on the old AVR with my remote, it would power up the active sub and everything else. Sadly no remote control for the 18i20 that could take over the job.
I wonder how much energy the stuff pulls when no audio is playing...
I use a Belkin remote switched power strip, and I think jmone recently got something similar working for his outdoor setup. This one (or one very much like it): http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Conserve-Switch-Energy-Saving-Protector/dp/B003P2UMNK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1394481867&sr=1-1&keywords=belkin+remote+power+strip
My amps have a soft start, though; some people experience unpleasant "pops" when they use a simple power switch. Your attenuators should help with that though.
It looks like the emotiva has a remote power on trigger, so you may be able to master slave it, at least.
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I also have an Asus Essence ST and H6, and I still use it in my study setup. If you have two PCI slots it's potentially a good solution (although the new Asus 7.1 external card is around the same price). The only reason I didn't recommend the ST/H6 myself was that it was much too noisy for some very sensitive speakers I own (113dB sensitivity). I was getting fairly loud hiss out of them with the ST/H6, which is why I ultimately replaced the ST in my main system with the Steinberg (which pushed the hiss down to an almost inaudible level).
Asus's electrical specs indicated that the ST should've been significantly lower noise than the Steinberg (ST=124dB SNR v. the Steinberg's 117dB SNR), not the other way around. I took some rough measurements of the ST, and confirmed that its rated specs were not achievable inside the two computers I tested it in. I was getting about a 100dB SNR when I measured, rather than the advertised 124dB, and that's consistent with what stereophile got when they measured the ST as well (102dB): http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements. So there are only three explanations: 1) the ST's electrical specs are rather exaggerated (even by the admittedly loosey-goosey standards of hi-fi specs), 2) Asus didn't measure the ST for the rated specs when the card was actually inside a computer, or 3) my two computers (and stereophile's test rig) were all unusually EMI-ridden computers. The last option is certainly possible, but even then, how would one control for that and ensure that one could get the rated specs when buying the card?
In fairness to the ST/H6, it sounds great with less sensitive speakers that I've tested it with, but I just felt a little burned about a noise spec that was more than 20dB off, when the noise performance was one of the main reasons I bought the card. That said, a 100dB SNR is still respectable, and would probably be just fine for the majority of speakers (most speakers have a sensitivity 15 to 25dB lower than my horn drivers).
Interesting I have got close to the advertised specs measuring the ST at 120db s/n via RMAA looped through an external Tascam A/D. The H6 portion was 106db.
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Interesting I have got close to the advertised specs measuring the ST at 120db s/n via RMAA looped through an external Tascam A/D. The H6 portion was 106db.
That is interesting; I was definitely measuring the main ST outputs, not the h6. Initially, I was thinking I might've been an odd case, but stereophile got similar results. Your results reinforce the idea that the achieveable SNR may just be very system dependent.
Just out of curiosity, which TASCAM device do you have that has an SNR better than 120dB? I do occasional recording, and I'd love to have some general purpose inputs with a noise rating like that (assuming I can afford it ;D ).
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Yup. I'm using the Belkin remote switched power strip as well (till I get a sparkie to hard wire a switch in). I still get some pops but it is OK if you leave it for 20sec from last play before powering off (I'm guessing it is the Caps dissipating).
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The caps dissipating, or ramping up "pops" aren't going to hurt anything. If very concerned leave your kit on.
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I found a decent device with a IR switch, so I can wire it into my harmony. Its pretty cheap, so if it doesn't work properly nothing lost I guess.
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That is interesting; I was definitely measuring the main ST outputs, not the h6. Initially, I was thinking I might've been an odd case, but stereophile got similar results. Your results reinforce the idea that the achieveable SNR may just be very system dependent.
Just out of curiosity, which TASCAM device do you have that has an SNR better than 120dB? I do occasional recording, and I'd love to have some general purpose inputs with a noise rating like that (assuming I can afford it ;D ).
Tascam US-366
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In addition to my Steinberg UR824 and Asus Essence ST/H6, I also have the Tascam US-366.
Do I have too much stuff, or what? :) I need to sell some stuff. Hendrick, do you want to buy a Steinberg UR824?
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The caps dissipating, or ramping up "pops" aren't going to hurt anything. If very concerned leave your kit on.
Actually, the "thump" during the turn on of power amp without a soft start is a common cause of premature tweeter death in PA applications. Most home speakers have protective capacitors in place, but a loud enough pop/whump can still blow through an inadequate cap and damage a sensitive tweeter (I've been in the room when it happened).
Hendrik probably doesn't have to worry about that too much even if the emotiva does thump a little, given the relatively low maximum power output. I was more worried about jmone's setup with the 3000 watt class D power amp :o
Tascam US-366
Weird, the TASCAM site says the US-366's SNR on the input is only 98dB? Does it really perform that much better than its spec? If so it's a hell of a bargain, and at that price I'll be grabbing one shortly ;D
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I was more worried about jmone's setup with the 3000 watt class D power amp :o
6,000 watt please! no point with "little" amps. ;D
Seriously, I could have easily damaged the speakers as the pops were very loud but this was only when I turned it on/off quickly. I thought I had broken something the first time as the Amp was then in "reset" mode. If I take my time between power cycle, there is no pop on turn on at all and a much more moderate one when turning off if all inputs have been inactive for 20 sec and no problem with the amp.
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Weird, the TASCAM site says the US-366's SNR on the input is only 98dB? Does it really perform that much better than its spec? If so it's a hell of a bargain, and at that price I'll be grabbing one shortly ;D
I think that spec is mic in to line out.
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I think that spec is mic in to line out.
You're right, the full specs make that clearer. But the rated dynamic range of the ADC stage alone is only 102dB, so it's still punching well above its weight to resolve an input at -120dB ;D
I'm going down to the pro audio shop this weekend anyway, so I may see if I can fool around with one while I'm there.
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Hendrick, do you want to buy a Steinberg UR824?
If you had said that last week I might've jumped at it, but now I'm looking at the Focusrite 18i20 on my living room table and admiring its really good looking red finish!
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I setup my new system last night, and tbh the volume problem isn't really present.
With 10dB passive attenuators, i can run on 100% internal volume (with R128 volume leveling, though, so it always lowers the volume a bit) without my ears falling off (it reaches around 80dB on -20dBFS pink noise, as measured with a SPL meter in C weighting)
I tried tacking them out, but apparently my speaker are better then I thought, and I start to hear noise, at least when around 1ft from the speaker (where I happened to sit when taking them out, directly in front of my center speaker).
Will have to see if this volume level is enough, or if I have to experiment a bit more.
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I setup my new system last night, and tbh the volume problem isn't really present.
With 10dB passive attenuators, i can run on 100% internal volume (with R128 volume leveling, though, so it always lowers the volume a bit) without my ears falling off (it reaches around 80dB on -20dBFS pink noise, as measured with a SPL meter in C weighting)
I tried tacking them out, but apparently my speaker are better then I thought, and I start to hear noise, at least when around 1ft from the speaker (where I happened to sit when taking them out, directly in front of my center speaker).
Will have to see if this volume level is enough, or if I have to experiment a bit more.
If you're hitting 80 dB at -20dBFS, you're pretty close to "reference" level (83dB at -20dBFS).
Two thoughts:
1) One thing that wasn't intuitive about my interface (the Steinberg) was that it has a firmware/hardware volume setting that the windows mixer can't actually control; it needs to be set either in the Steinberg mixer or physically on the box. It looks like the Focusrite has something similar (based on the manual), so it might be worth checking that you maximized the volume there as well (apologies if you already thought of this).
2) If you want that extra 3dB to get to reference, and the noise level without the attenuators is too high, various outlets sell 6dB inline attenuators. That would get you just above reference level (84dB at -20dBFS).
Here are two models from PE (just for illustration, I'm sure you don't want to deal with international shipping for a five or ten dollar part)
http://www.parts-express.com/rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-6-db--266-234
http://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-6-db-rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-pair--266-242
Reference-level capable has been my personal design target, as the reference level output is a bit too loud for any kind of ordinary listening for me; the 83dB at -20dBFS is ok, but those 0dBFS 103dB peaks make my hair stand on end! But I like the idea of being able to reproduce sound at the same volume as a movie theater if I ever wanted to ;D
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Yeah I found the volume control in the mixing panel, and set it to HW control so I can use the knob if i ever wanted to, but its maxed out now.
I might dig for slightly smaller attenuators, for now it sounds great. Had to toy a bit with ASIO buffer settings to stop it from glitching occasionally, but now its great.
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Yeah I found the volume control in the mixing panel, and set it to HW control so I can use the knob if i ever wanted to, but its maxed out now.
I might dig for slightly smaller attenuators, for now it sounds great. Had to toy a bit with ASIO buffer settings to stop it from glitching occasionally, but now its great.
Great news; always love it when a plan comes together ;D
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I found a bunch of 6dB attenuators, should get them next week.
I think thats a good thing, too. I currently have such switchable ones with options for 10/15/20, and the switches on those seem rather wobbly, when tuning volume with MCs Room Correction I found a big difference in two speakers, turns out their switch moved to 15 somehow, I guess that happened when moving the amp a bit earlier...
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I found a bunch of 6dB attenuators, should get them next week.
I think thats a good thing, too. I currently have such switchable ones with options for 10/15/20, and the switches on those seem rather wobbly, when tuning volume with MCs Room Correction I found a big difference in two speakers, turns out their switch moved to 15 somehow, I guess that happened when moving the amp a bit earlier...
Yeah the switchable ones are good for diagnostics, but have their challenges. I bought some switchable ones and some fixed ones when I was first figuring out my situation because they were relatively cheap and I wanted to get things working. I ultimately landed on the fixed ones because they "safer," and I didn't really expect to need to change the gain structure once I got it down.
How's the system sounding otherwise? Better than the old one, hopefully (after all the effort).
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It sounds great. I don't know all the fun terms that everyone uses to describe how audio sounds, but I do feel like its a bit more alive and gained clarity.
But of course I didn't keep the old system setup to double check this impression, so who knows.
No complaints, anyway. Well, except that my TV is dumb and does not turn the screen off when the HTPC turns off the HDMI output (ie. on standby). May get a USB HDMI-CEC adapter to make it tell the TV to turn the screen off instead.
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My TV (Samsung) has a timer in the settings. After x minutes of inactivity, it shuts off.
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May get a USB HDMI-CEC adapter to make it tell the TV to turn the screen off instead.
If you can figure out a way to get one of these working correctly in Media Center, that would be great. I'd love it if I could control MC via my TV remote.
I bought one to try, but it broke the connection between my HTPC and TV (no video) and I didn't want to buy an active extender for something which, according to other people, did not work correctly with MC anyway.
My TV (Samsung) has a timer in the settings. After x minutes of inactivity, it shuts off.
My Sony is annoying in that it will only do that after 1, 2, or 4 hours of inactivity. That generally means the prompt is showing up near the end of a film if it's set to 2, or the TV is idle for an hour or more if set to 4.
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My TV (Samsung) has a timer in the settings. After x minutes of inactivity, it shuts off.
"Inactivity" for the TV means the remote wasn't touched. Not "no active input", so its not something that works for me, since I never touch the TV remote anyway, other then to turn it on once.
If you can figure out a way to get one of these working correctly in Media Center, that would be great. I'd love it if I could control MC via my TV remote.
All I really want is the TV to go in standby when PC goes to sleep, for now anyway, and that can be done with a simple tray icon application that waits for Windows to turn the screen off (such a thing already exists, too).
Maybe one day I might poke at getting remote control support in MC, but not soon.
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I got the USB CEC widget today, and sadly out of the box it doesn't handle standby and screen turning off. It does however turn the TV off when the PC shuts down, and back on when the PC starts, but thats not enough of course.
It comes with a fancy SDK, maybe I'll just plug it into a tiny system tray application that monitors sleep/screen turning off/on and runs the appropriate CEC commands. Something to do for the weekend I suppose.
For anyone else trying such a device, i didn't get any HDMI image at all until i upgraded the firmware of the widget and installed its driver.
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It comes with a fancy SDK, maybe I'll just plug it into a tiny system tray application that monitors sleep/screen turning off/on and runs the appropriate CEC commands. Something to do for the weekend I suppose.
Isn't Media Center already monitoring this sort of thing now?
For anyone else trying such a device, i didn't get any HDMI image at all until i upgraded the firmware of the widget and installed its driver.
Huh, I wonder if that was what caused the problem here. I don't recall there being available firmware updates at the time I purchased mine though, and it was never suggested to me when troubleshooting - they just told me I needed to buy an active extender, which cost more than the device itself.
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Isn't Media Center already monitoring this sort of thing now?
It is, but I also want the TV shutting off if MC happens to not be running, so at the very least for that functionality a system-wide mini-daemon is rather useful - for my use case anyway.
Not sure yet.
Seems like a decent task to get going with the SDK.
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The first draft of my tiny tool is finished, only took about the last hour, it simply sits in the system tray, doesn't need any configuration, and turns on/off all devices connected to the HDMI bus depending on screen on/off or standby of the HTPC. Neat-o!
The API to interact with the USB CEC device is pretty simple, so maybe I'll dabble with the remote control functionality as well, and we'll see if its worth supporting in MC.
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Sounds good! Perhaps I will have to pick one of these up.
I'm curious - were you connected to your Sony display before when it wouldn't show a picture until your updated the firmware? (it's a Sony TV I am using)
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Yeah, direct connection from HTPC over USB CEC to Sony TV. I cut out the AVR now that I have the USB DAC.
After not getting anywhere at first, I unplugged it from HDMI and connected the TV directly again without the device - but left the device on USB, and installed the firmware update and the driver. Connected it again, and it works just fine now.
Enabling the screen back after standby is still a bit flaky, well, something to work on. I don't use standby much anyway, as long as the TV turns off when the screen is turned off by windows, thats the major use-case for me. :)
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These days my HTPC seems to be on 24/7 thanks to Media Center (which has me wanting to upgrade to something more efficient soon) so even if no other support for this thing gets added to Media Center, that tray utility which turns the display on/off when Windows turns the screen off would be very useful.
Standby is broken on this system anyway (an incompatibility between the motherboard and PSU that neither manufacturer acknowledges) so it would be a full shutdown/hibernation if I were to turn things off anyway.
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My CEC adapter arrived today, and that was a big headache to get working—mostly due to cable-related problems.
For some reason it didn't like the USB cable I was using, so once I swapped that out I was able to update the firmware, and after swapping out the 10cm HDMI cable it came with for a properly built 1m cable, I was finally able to get a picture on the TV.
Then I had to play around with the order that everything was being turned on for the TV/PC to see that they were both CEC devices. Half the time it was just killing the HDMI input as soon as it was connected to the TV. (nothing worked—even without the CEC adapter—until I cut power to the TV at the wall and reset it)
However, once they actually connected properly, it all seems to be working correctly now, and I'm able to swap cables around without any problems.
As long as this connection is reliable, I should be able to hide away the adapter now.
I see that there is a "HTPC header" board now which supports a number of motherboards including NUCs—that seems like a really nice integrated solution, especially if Jim is planning on selling those NUC systems. It would be great if we could get CEC support built into Media Center.
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I must say, even after only having it a day and using Hendrik's tray application (thanks again) it is surprising just how much better the USB-CEC adapter has made the HTPC experience.
My Sony TV is like Hendrik's where it does not turn off with a blank input, and only has a 1, 2, or 4 hour idle timer which is based on the last time you sent an input from the remote.
2 hours is often too short for many films, and 4 hours means there's at least an hour after you watch a film before it turns off.
Now I don't have to worry about this at all, and the TV will switch off after five minutes of the PC being idle, and never during playback.
It's also made me realize just how often the PC is left idle for more than a few minutes.
The TV seems to be a lot quicker to respond via CEC too. With CEC, it seems like it holds onto the handshaking or something, as the TV turns on with an image right away, rather than displaying a blank screen for 10-15s before the image appears if I use the remote. It just makes everything that bit more seamless.
Even if there is no further development or integration with Media Center, I think it was a worthwhile purchase.
I would of course like to see full integration to control Media Center though - but more than that, my television has a "Theater" button on the remote (many Sony TVs do) which toggles the picture mode between the current one and movie mode. This is great for switching between PC and Film use.
It would be amazing if Media Center could activate this at the start of fullscreen video playback, but I don't know if it's available via CEC. (or libCEC anyway)
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I am looking at getting a relatively affordable power amp, which wouldn't navigate me into any corners and still gives me the flexibility to get active speakers later. Good speakers are far more expensive.
I requested a quote for international delivery from Emotiva regarding their 7 channel amp, which would be a good entry point to keep using my current speakers for now.
emotiva are awesome indeed. I just replaced my lavry and mytek dacs with emotiva stealth dc-1
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I must say, even after only having it a day and using Hendrik's tray application (thanks again) it is surprising just how much better the USB-CEC adapter has made the HTPC experience.
I agree, just the simple commodity of the TV properly turning off on its own helps a whole lot.
For me, the only missing piece now is my DAC, which would be great if it could also go into standby automatically. It has a 12V trigger input, so I could control it over that, but I need to cook up a 12V trigger output for a HTPC..
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I agree, just the simple commodity of the TV properly turning off on its own helps a whole lot.
For me, the only missing piece now is my DAC, which would be great if it could also go into standby automatically. It has a 12V trigger input, so I could control it over that, but I need to cook up a 12V trigger output for a HTPC..
I'd be interested in that too if you figure something out.
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Well I forgot all about it, and I had never actually tried it before, but there is an "Auto" scene selection on my television which follows the content type reported to the display by the video card.
This is a standard HDMI feature, though I don't know if AMD or Intel implement it.
For Nvidia it is set in the "adjust desktop color settings" section of the driver control panel.
I wonder if they have an API which would allow Media Center to automatically report the content type as "Movies" when video files are being played fullscreen.
There is an "Auto" setting in the control panel, so there must be some way to specify what type of content your application is displaying.
When I change the content type manually in the control panel, the changes are seamless on the display without blanking, so it would be a very neat solution if it's possible for MC to control this.
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The first draft of my tiny tool is finished, only took about the last hour, it simply sits in the system tray, doesn't need any configuration, and turns on/off all devices connected to the HDMI bus depending on screen on/off or standby of the HTPC. Neat-o!
The API to interact with the USB CEC device is pretty simple, so maybe I'll dabble with the remote control functionality as well, and we'll see if its worth supporting in MC.
Wow, this thread has drifted somewhat.
Anyhoo, the discussion on HDMI CEC devices piqued my interest and (without the long story) I ended up here:
http://forums.pulse-eight.com/yaf_postst493p12_I-made-the-CEC-adapter-work-with-Microsoft-Media-Center.aspx (http://forums.pulse-eight.com/yaf_postst493p12_I-made-the-CEC-adapter-work-with-Microsoft-Media-Center.aspx)
where JRiver was mentioned by name.
Not sure what hardware you're working with but you might want to collaborate with AndrewFG. Seems like he's had a wheel pretty well built and possibly ready to roll for some time.
I'd be interested to see where all of this gets to.
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Yeah we got the Pulse-eight adapters as well.
I really only set out to solve my problem of the TV not turning itself off when the HTPC goes to sleep, which was really annoying.
In the future, maybe MC will get support for such USB CEC adapters natively, so it can be controlled via TV remote.
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Yeah we got the Pulse-eight adapters as well.
I really only set out to solve my problem of the TV not turning itself off when the HTPC goes to sleep, which was really annoying.
In the future, maybe MC will get support for such USB CEC adapters natively, so it can be controlled via TV remote.
I've seen this kit before (don't remember when) and it got me interested but I shied away from it given it's focus on other platforms. Didn't want to get in over my head. Your comment about putting the TV to standby got me thinking I should review the situation.
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I'm waiting for a Behringer FCA610. Will give my opinion on it when its here. It is supposed to replace the Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 due to some ground loop between the Essence main board and the H6-card.
The FCA610 will connect to the Behringer A500 via balanced cables, so I cross my fingers...
Best regards,
Mikkel