INTERACT FORUM
Devices => Apple iPad, iPhone, iPod, Airplay => Topic started by: new2hifi on July 31, 2014, 06:18:36 pm
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Want AirPlay or Bluetooth Audio! I am really amazed that JRiver do not receive audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth.
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Bluetooth works with MC19.
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+1 for AirPlay integration, but it's never going to happen. :(
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XBMC managed to, why can't/doesn't JRiver?
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We've focused on DLNA. Apple chose a different direction, and their environment isn't friendly to developers.
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I would put money on there being more AirPlay devices in use than DLNA devices.
AirPlay has a defined featureset which all devices support. With DLNA, feature support is up to the manufacturer, and there are a lot of bad implementations.
AirPlay supports perfect sync between any number of devices; I've yet to see anything synchronize even two devices properly over DLNA. Does Media Center even support this, if the receivers do?
Most people seem to buy AirPlay or Bluetooth devices these days, in preference to DLNA.
This is because mobile devices can play directly to AirPlay/Bluetooth receivers. DLNA requires a server or specialized apps.
This does not directly affect Media Center, because it would be playing to the DLNA device, but it affects how many people choose to buy DLNA devices in the first place.
In recent months, the lack of AirPlay support is one of the main reasons people have come back to me saying that they can't replace iTunes with Media Center on their systems.
It has to work with their existing hardware before they would consider buying the program and potentially adding DLNA devices like the id in new zones.
I don't see why it should have to be one or the other.
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I would put money on there being more AirPlay devices in use than DLNA devices.
You'd lose that bet. Almost every new TV and Blu-ray player supports DLNA. Many Android phones, media streamers, receivers, PS3, and so on. It's the standard.
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You'd lose that bet. Almost every new TV and Blu-ray player supports DLNA. Many Android phones, media streamers, receivers, PS3, and so on. It's the standard.
That's why I put emphasis on in use.
All the televisions in my house, and a handful of other devices have DLNA receivers built in.
None of the DLNA features are ever used, because the implementation and format support is terrible.
All of the AirPlay devices are used on a regular basis because it just works, and anyone can play to them directly from their phone/tablet.
I have bought a couple of DLNA devices in the last few months, which were all returned, because it just doesn't work well.
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I would +1 on AirPlay. I am not even buying any more DLNA renderers unless they also support AirPlay. I love my Onkyo receivers as DLNA renderers, but AirPlay is a lot less hassle, especially for syncing. A workaround is to use JRemote on an iOS device, select "Play on this Device", and then forward the output from the iOS device to the AirPlay renderer.
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I prefer Airplay as well, I use it all the time because it works perfect, and it's more used than DLNA, at least by the people I know. But I'm not worried if is not implemented by JRiver as my AVR already does.
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+1 for Airplay.
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+1 for Airplay
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+ 1 for Airplay
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Yes, airplay has allowed me to make a sonos-like environment for a fraction of the cost. EXTREMELY wife-friendly. She thinks I am a genius for having this set up this way. Any tablet or phone can play and pitch the music to any location in the house. Would love to be able to do this with MC as well. Can do it with JRemote but not the main client.
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+1 for airplay - Would love to able to stream from MC to my B&W A7 via airplay.
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+1 me too.
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+1
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+ 1 AirPlay. I have 6 DLNA devises, never use them, they are terrible. Own 2 AirPlay devices, use every week. Seriously looking for another media player because managing both is ridiculous. Figure it out and make AirPlay work! The other features being added are fluff, AirPlay support is a game changer.
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Another example of DLNA being a headache, while Airplay just works: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90802.msg624227#msg624227 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90802.msg624227#msg624227)
I experienced something similar with the pair of Sony SRS-X7 speakers I bought a few months ago.
While I got DLNA working, a lot of features were broken when playing music from Media Center - I couldn't even seek during playback, and synced audio was impossible.
Playback via AirPlay on the device (it supported both) was flawless. The speaker behaved as you would expect, and I had perfect sync between all my AirPlay devices.
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I tally +13 for AirPlay so far. Do we hear +20?
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+1 in case you didn't count mine :)
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+1
I now sometimes use Loopback with shairportw to AirPlay to jrmc and airfoil to play from jrmc. It works but native support would be greatly appreciated.
I remember on some receivers you paid to get AirPlay support to cover the cost of the apple AirPlay license. Maybe that could be an option.
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+1 for Airplay
Today for AudioI have an AirPlay playlist using a virtual sound card, loopback and shareportw to AirPlay to different Audio zones.
For Video I use another solution.
This allows me to stream all other content from the iPad to anywhere in the house.
Would love to see audio and video Airplay support.
Purchased my MC 20 license anyway in support
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+1 for Airplay
I have lots of DLNA devices .. most of them need to be power cycled regularly.. Not reliable.
OTOH my Airport Express's never need any attention, they just work.
I use MC because its a great product and when used with DLNA renderers, I can have multiple separate streams to each room of the house ... very nice solution, except for the renderers which are the weak link.
Apple works very reliably but it can't do the multiple stream thing from a single server the way MC can.
Having MC doing Airplay would be, in a word, wonderful.
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-1 for AirPlay.
If you start supporting proprietary protocols, it only empowers those companies to make more proprietary protocols. DLNA was invented for a reason.
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-1 for AirPlay.
If you start supporting proprietary protocols, it only empowers those companies to make more proprietary protocols. DLNA was invented for a reason.
I agree with you on principle: I would much rather use free and open protocols than proprietary ones.
In practice, I have AirPlay hardware which is now more than 10 years old at this point, that is still working perfectly. (1st generation AirPort Express)
I have purchased (and returned) DLNA hardware that was released in 2014 which still lacks support for the basic featureset of that device - and that includes hardware which supported both protocols. (which means that it can do things like synchronized playback - just not via DLNA)
AirPlay devices just work, in my experience DLNA does not.
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I agree with you on principle: I would much rather use free and open protocols than proprietary ones.
In practice, I have AirPlay hardware which is now more than 10 years old at this point, that is still working perfectly. (1st generation AirPort Express)
I have purchased (and returned) DLNA hardware that was released in 2014 which still lacks support for the basic featureset of that device - and that includes hardware which supported both protocols. (which means that it can do things like synchronized playback - just not via DLNA)
AirPlay devices just work, in my experience DLNA does not.
They 'just work' for the same reason that most Apple devices 'just work.' It's a closed, tightly-regulated ecosystem. It isn't because of the technology per se.
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They 'just work' for the same reason that most Apple devices 'just work.' It's a closed, tightly-regulated ecosystem. It isn't because of the technology per se.
The requirements for DLNA are too lax. Everything in the spec seems to be optional, which means it doesn't get implemented.
Is there any hardware that supports gapless, sync, and seeking via DLNA?
AirPlay's basic functionality covers everything that most people want from a wireless audio device.
AirPlay receivers can be played to directly from mobile devices (any audio playing on the device can be routed to an AirPlay receiver) just like Bluetooth speakers.
DLNA only works in a client-server fashion, with mobile devices acting as a remote, rather than being able to play audio directly to the device.
It doesn't matter if the DLNA spec is theoretically capable of these things, ten years later, there still doesn't seem to be anything which replicates the original AirPort Express' functionality.
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here's another +1 for Airplay. I've tried DLNA too and it's simply not nearly as good, especially with respect to sync'ing, for which Airplay is simply amazing -- who doesn't want to be able to play music in the living room and then walk into their bedroom and have the same music playing, in sync? Sync is great for when you're playing music and cleaning the house, ie. walking all around.
I'm a strong proponent of open standards, and I specifically despise Apple for this very reason. Clearly Jim has a point that it's harder to develop for Airplay. But I keep thinking of Airfoil -- those peeps reverse engineered the whole protocol, to the point of near perfection by this point. This is why I'm suggesting a collab/integration of Airfoil -- no hands tied by Apple, developer freedom, and no need to reinvent the wheel. It's just the pragmatic reality that DLNA doesn't cut it.
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But I keep thinking of Airfoil -- those peeps reverse engineered the whole protocol, to the point of near perfection by this point. This is why I'm suggesting a collab/integration of Airfoil -- no hands tied by Apple, developer freedom, and no need to reinvent the wheel. It's just the pragmatic reality that DLNA doesn't cut it.
The AirTunes protocol (now AirPlay) was reverse-engineered and open-sourced very shortly after the first AirPort Express was released.
While they could try and work with RogueAmoeba, the information is out there for JRiver to develop a solution themselves.
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AirPlay receivers can be played to directly from mobile devices (any audio playing on the device can be routed to an AirPlay receiver) just like Bluetooth speakers.
If a mobile device is required to play from (always on and draining battery) and if it needs to be an Apple device, that is very limiting and I don't understand all the interest. Is this the case?
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If a mobile device is required to play from (always on and draining battery) and if it needs to be an Apple device, that is very limiting and I don't understand all the interest. Is this the case?
No, it is not required.
I was pointing out another feature that AirPlay has which DLNA lacks. (i.e. reasons why people buy and use AirPlay hardware instead of DLNA)
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What devices are people using as Airplay renderers? I know there is the Airport Express and Apple TV. What about something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Receiver-Supports-Portable-WF-RADU/dp/B00L26YDA4/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8
I originally bought JRiver because of its multizone support, but the poor syncing left me looking at other options. I currently use the Onkyo Net Zone 2 to play Pandora and Internet Radio. I cannot get it to work with playlists from JRiver so not so thrilled with it for music playback. I have separate inexpensive stereo receivers for each zone but have not yet worked out the best solution for routing music to each zone with good remote control.
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Should we take the AirPlay/Bluetooth request topic (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90712.0) being relegated to the iPod forum as a sign that you are not going to reconsider your position on DLNA vs AirPlay?
Because that is making me reconsider using Media Center as the basis for networked home audio long-term.
Playing to AirPlay devices using Media Center works via RogueAmoeba's Airfoil program (i.e. music plays) but you lose a lot of functionality, such as being able to send audio to separate zones.
DLNA hardware created and sold in 2014 is lacking the basic featureset of the 2004 AirPort Express device, and is not yet in a state that is suitable for whole-home audio.
I know that you're trying to sell the id for this purpose, but that is a $400 device compared to $99($75 refurbished) for the latest model, or less than $50 for an older model on eBay. (which is actually better for CD playback)
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I mostly use original AirPort Express devices since they do bit-perfect 16/44.1 (CD audio) and have both analog out and a digital optical output to go into an external DAC.
There's also an ethernet port which is useful if you want to use a wired connection rather than wireless, or use the AE as a WiFi extender.
And there is a USB port which can be used to convert a wired printer to wireless, or charge devices.
It's a very convenient device in a small package, and the original models seem to be available used for $50 or less now.
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I would say that the AirPlay topic is a legitimate request for a feature in the core MC program, rather than one for just handhelds.
Given the choice, I would use DLNA to play to a single zone like my Onkyo network receivers, but for playing to more than one zone simultaneously, or to cheaper rendering devices, AirPlay is rather impressive.
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Please use the Airplay thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90712.0) that was already started.
I've changed the name of the board to include Airplay.
We spent well over $100,000 once supporting Apple ipods and iphones. They blocked our support overnight. We won't make such a mistake again.
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I just switched to jriver last week, I'm very happy and impressed. I can't believe how fast it is!
I also +1 airplay. I dislike Apple's proprietary ways as well, however I the airplay experience just works. Wife happy as another person on this thread said. I could 100% stop using iTunes on my computer and iphones, but I can't control a few of the speakers in my house without airplay on jriver. :(
Airfoil physically works, but I want to be able to control each zone independently using jremote. So its not a solution.
Greg
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DLNA hardware created and sold in 2014 is lacking the basic featureset of the 2004 AirPort Express device, and is not yet in a state that is suitable for whole-home audio.
You may have had bad luck with DLNA, but that's not a DLNA problem. It's an implementation problem by some manufacturers.
I know that you're trying to sell the id for this purpose, but that is a $400 device compared to $99($75 refurbished) for the latest model, or less than $50 for an older model on eBay. (which is actually better for CD playback)
We're doing more than "trying" to sell the Id. It's selling pretty well.
It's currently $295, not $400, and isn't directly comparable to Airplay devices.
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We spent well over $100,000 once supporting Apple ipods and iphones. They blocked our support overnight. We won't make such a mistake again.
I wouldn't consider creating an entirely new type of device that runs on a different operating system "blocking your support", or are you referring to something else?
I was under the impression that Media Center still worked with classic iPods.
The AirTunes protocol was reverse-engineered almost 10 years ago now, and they have made no effort to block implementations in other software such as Airfoil, or competing media players like XBMC.
The only way they could change this would be to discontinue existing AirPlay hardware.
You may have had bad luck with DLNA, but that's not a DLNA problem. It's an implementation problem by some manufacturers.
Please recommend some DLNA hardware which matches the AirPort Express:
- Dynamic linking/unlinking of zones without interrupting playback.
- Synchronized playback across multiple devices.
- Lossless 16/44.1 streaming. (or better)
- System-wide direct audio playback from guest devices on the network with zero configuration.
- High quality analog and digital outputs which allow it to connect to any existing DAC/AVR/Amplifier
- Full playback control via the server/receiver. (stop, skip, and seek control)
- Control via IR remotes
- Can connect via dual-band (2.4 or 5 GHz) WiFi or Ethernet, optionally extending WiFi network.
- USB port which can charge devices. (or convert a wired printer to wireless - but that is not relevant to audio)
- Internal power supply - no power brick/wall-wart required
- Small unobtrusive design
- Actually works. Never crashes, drops connection, needs restarting etc. (10+ years of service from my original AirPort Express)
- Costs $99 or less
Another issue is that there simply aren't a lot of high-end DLNA speakers, but there are a lot of nice AirPlay ones.
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I would also say that even if Apple were to block all 3rd party AirPlay support tomorrow and release a new standard that all their new hardware would support, the existing AirPlay technology would still be worth supporting. In fact the AirPlay speakers and client devices would probably drop in price and be steals.
On the other hand, if JRiver were to develop their implementation of DLNA so that it could do all the stuff AirPlay can reliably, that might work too. However, it would be very nice to be able to use ~$100 AppleTVs as zones via AirPlay.
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Let me know if you want to risk your $100,000.
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So no examples of good DLNA hardware then?
Even ignoring the price-point, is there even any DLNA hardware on the market which can do half of what the 2004 AirPort Express does?
And I think fitbrit makes a good point about AirPlay - even if it were discontinued tomorrow, which seems extremely unlikely, it would still be worthwhile to support it considering the number of devices on the market.
I know several people who I've been trying to wean off iTunes, and this is the last sticking point for them. $50 for a Media Center license is already more expensive than they would like.
$50 for the MC license plus $400 to replace perfectly functional AirPlay hardware in each room is unreasonable.
Unless Apple suddenly starts selling high res hardware that requires "AirPlay 2" and discontinues the original devices, I'm not sure what would obsolete it.
But why would they replace the old protocol and stop millions of devices working overnight rather than expand it to support high resolution instead?
Considering that they only recently added support for AirPlay as an audio device in OSX (rather than playing through iTunes) it would indicate that they plan to continue using it.
I'm not sure that your investment would need to be as much as developing iPod support from scratch when there is already 9+ years worth of open-source software written to use the protocol.
Let me know if you want to risk your $100,000.
Since you did not answer my previous questions at all, I'm still unclear on whether iPod support still works for classic models or not. I'm assuming that it does.
Looking back, it seems that iPod support was added in 2003. The first iPhones and iPod Touches were introduced in 2007 so that is at least four years of support.
I don't remember the iPhone/iPod touch really becoming mainstream devices until after the first couple of revisions (~iPhone 3GS) in 2009 or so.
And it's not like people aren't still using older iPod devices. While you may not support iOS hardware, Apple still sells the iPod Classic.
Was 6+ years of iPod support worth that investment? You would know better than I do, but it seems reasonable to me.
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I know when to give up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick).
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I'm looking for solutions, not an argument.
What is the known-good DLNA hardware that supports these features with Media Center?
Everything I have bought so far has been "bad luck". (your words)
The only Dlna devices that work as well as AirPlay that I know of use some sort of extension to Dlna. I am thinking of the linn devices, they are very stable. That's why I think the id is a good idea for jriver.
Considering jrivers stance on this and in Apple in general I must say I am surprised they are even investing in a Mac version...
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I know when to give up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick).
Very funny!
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Considering JRiver stance on this and in Apple in general I must say I am surprised they are even investing in a Mac version...
The difference is that writing software for OSX is officially supported by Apple. (though maybe not for much longer, if you aren't on the App Store)
Sending audio to AirPlay devices is not officially supported on Windows from anything other than iTunes - it has all been reverse-engineered.
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Bluetooth works with MC19.
Jim: You mean that MC19 can receive audio via Bluetooth, i.e. I can send music to MC19 using MC 19 as Bluetooth speakers in my Apple or Android devices?
Please post the link for such setup.
Thanks
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Jim: You mean that MC19 can receive audio via Bluetooth, i.e. I can send music to MC19 using MC 19 as Bluetooth speakers in my Apple or Android devices?
Please post the link for such setup.
You didn't make this clear in your original post - I think everyone expected that you wanted MC to send audio to Bluetooth devices, not receive it.
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You didn't make this clear in your original post - I think everyone expected that you wanted MC to send audio to Bluetooth devices, not receive it.
I did! See this. Want AirPlay or Bluetooth Audio! I am really amazed that JRiver do not receive audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth.
My JRiver 18 is running on a dedicated computer attached to a USB DAC. I want to send audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth to JRiver 18 so it can be played via my USB DAC.
So is there any guide to accomplish this?
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My JRiver 18 is running on a dedicated computer attached to a USB DAC. I want to send audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth to JRiver 18 so it can be played via my USB DAC.
So is there any guide to accomplish this?
Anyone??
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Install shairportw. Set it up to use the default audio device. Make sure your dac is not the default audio device. Then in jrmc use the open live functionality to grab the audio from the default audio device and it will reroute it through its dsp and then to your dac.
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Here's an idea.
I have been through the same road as many of you:
- Apple technology is proprietary, but works. Specifically, multi-room synced audio works on native Apple hardware. But I'm not willing to commit to it. I've already invested in Android boxes for each TV at home. There are many implementations of AirPlay for Android, but so far, NONE does synced audio (AFAIK). And an iOS device does not make an AirPlay "renderer".
- DLNA is awesome... on paper. My TV's (both Sony and Sharp) implementation suck. Sony sucks worse. They are slow, have limited format support, the navigation is awful, and they don't synchronize. Plex has a decent DLNA server, but given the Plex app, who would use the DLNA service anyway? And Plex sucks at music. I've tried about every major and some minor DLNA solution. Logitech Media Server (see below) beats the hell out of each one.
- MC, so far, cannot sync zones correctly.
My current option is Logitech (Squeezebox) Media Server (LMS), with software players and controllers everywhere (Android boxes and my smartphone, and my wife/kids' iOS stuff). But I'd really like to stay with MC. It's SO powerful and flexible. And LMS, while awesome, is at risk of fading any day now because Logitech discontinued their hardware line.
Enough talk: here is the idea: implement a really good RENDERER out of Gizmo. Right now it does the trick, but
- It is not controllable via another controller (another Gizmo instance, for example, or a DLNA controller for that matter).
- It doesn't sync.
If it could behave as a zone that appeared as such on MC and it could handle all the inner trickery to sync, and to receive commands from other controllers, any computer + Android boxes could become a Sonos killer: simple, with software coming from a single supplier, and JRiver gets to decide on all the details of this controlled environment (as Apple does) ... but without throwing the standards-support out of the window (as Apple would never).
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Yes, the lack of AirPlay support is one of the things that keeps JRiver from going to a mainstream audience. Right now it is still for people that like to tweak and fiddle. I wonder if the lack of AirPlay support is another consequence of not using native tools to develop for the Mac. Using DLNA is fraught with problems. I'm lucky that my receiver behaves well with DNLA, or at least it behaves with JRiver. Here's a weird idea, would it be possible to develop a small, stand alone app whose only function is to stream the output of JRiver over AirPlay? Like I said, it's a weird idea but it doesn't sound impossible. How about it? Fire up Xcode and see what's possible:)
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My 2 cents here; I've got a high-end Marantz AVR, and it is capable of operating as either a DLNA endpoint, or as an airplay receiver.
Sending airplay to it successfully after I got it set up was basically instantaneous using a program that understood airplay.
Getting JRiver to send DLNA to it took several hours of fiddling with settings.
Sending airplay to it works absolutely dead reliably. I can stream airplay to it all day long without a hiccup.
Sending DLNA FLAC to it will hang periodically, ranging from a couple of times over the course of a single album, to playing 2 or 3 albums before ending up with a hang. Sometimes the hangs can be resolved by telling JRiver to re-connect to the AVR, sometimes the hangs require pulling the power to the AV receiver to get resolved. This isn't usable.
This is consistent with my other experiences with DLNA- It's a terribly written standard with all kinds of "gray areas", which led to every manufacturer having their own foibles and virtually none of the implementations working reliably.
I don't give a darn about prior bad experiences with apple, DLNA sucks, and Airplay is known to work, work reliably, and has a lot more people *using it* than DLNA as pointed out by a prior poster. Sure, tons of devices have "DLNA support", but in reality, most of them are buggy messes, and working out what features and profiles a given device supports is incredibly difficult because it's a checkbox feature- the manufacturers tick off the check box saying they support it but hardly anyone uses it, and the manufacturers haven't a clue what to do if you contact them because it's not working correctly.
I'm not going out and buying a different AV receiver because the one I got happens to have broken DLNA support. Figuring out which AV receivers don't have broken DLNA support is something I have no idea how to approach- because so few people use the feature, reviews don't test the feature, all you may get is a mention that the device supports it. If a new media app comes out that supports the features I want (FLAC, decent sound path, android remote-control) and airplay, I'd strongly consider jumping ship from JRiver.
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Excuse my lack of tech savy, but do I gather from this thread that streaming music form my PC using MC via my Airport Extreme/Express network cannot be done?
Thanks, in advance.
S
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I had a bit of a breakthrough with AirPlay and MC20 today!
After fiddling with Linked Zones and DLNA streaming again and not getting the sync close enough, I gave up and decided to have a look around at what's out there these days as I've played with AirFoil Server before and it still looses sync regularly and suffers drop outs.
The good news is I've discovered a nice AirPlay server called TuneBlade that manages to stay in sync and not have dropout issues.
It works with 192k/24bit FLAC too, but I don't know if it's bit perfect. (edit im pretty sure it can be bit perfect out to 96/24bit when configured properly)
It looks like it does do bit perfect upto 96/24 , this below is the AirFoil Speaker looping via the MC20 WDM driver so I can analyse the audio.
The Steely Dan Two Against Nature SACD converted to FLAC at 24bit/88K and streamed via MC20 NUC Server > TuneBlade > Wifi > AirFoil Speaker > MC20WDM has a frequency response out to about 48kHz!
It's not quite bit perfect, but the frequency response is certainly there.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pEtd2DFnjmx3p_PVEnQBcBrWDuHeVDO4xl6SOB8eTOe8ZSjCut6yjh9tKCHEFCe7VtcneTZzMFqpYgUe7NXAcH_D71vQsFdR00Yu0rHYRc78e8Fxy0aY8_9LngGtiHxZfgU4dYoegJP0Wd8PCLpfUYg/BitPerfect-TuneBlade-MC20.JPG)
I'll describe the config below at a high level, and then go into some more detail.
It'll probably require some screen shots later as there's quite a few bits to it.
What you'll need...
JRiver MC20 on a couple of machines.
One that your not using for the Audio needs to be the server because its really really difficult to get the server and the slaves in sync.
This way you only have to worry about the AirPlay playback devices being in sync.
Im using my Intel NUC with windows 8.1 and MC20 as the TuneBlade AirPlay server.
TuneBlade
The most configurable, stable and reliable AirPlay streaming server for windows that I've found. (As a bonus it's also the best looking AirPlay Server software too)
This is installed on my Intel NUC to intercept the audio from the NUC and reroute it to the AirFoil Speakers installed on other windows machines or devices. NUC is locally muted for playback.
http://tuneblade.com/
TuneBlade Remote for iPhone
This allows you to control all the AirPlay receivers
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/remote-for-tuneblade/id910930210?ls=1&mt=8
Airfoil Speaker
Airfoil installed on my other MC20 machines to receive the AirPlay stream from TuneBlade.
You could also try the free opensource Shairport4W as AirPlay receivers but they're a bit clunkier.
https://www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/
Apple TV / AirExpress / AirPlay Speaker / Airplay AVR / AirPlay XB... cough cough something something ;)
The registered version of TuneBlade also works with a whole bunch of other AirPlay devices.
A Good Stable WiFi Network
I use 802.11AC for my whole house now.
I've got Netgear 3 channel AC routers in bridged repeater mode which gets me about 1Gbit between the main router and the lounge router.
I've got 2 channel 802.11AC mini USB dongles that do 600Mbit/s for the NUC and other PCs and devices around the house.
It'll probably work well on a standard 802.11N network too if you have low interference but my experience is with AC Wifi on all playback devices.
Nice to have is JRemote
To remotely control playback, playlists and full MC20 control including master volume control.
http://www.JRemote.net/
How to connect it all up??
MC 20 with the TuneBlade AirPlay Server installed
I have MC20 on the NUC with a dedicated zone I called BladeTune-AirPlay. (Typo - should be called TuneBlade-AirPlay)
That zone is configured to playback to the default audio device via direct sound and a .5 sec buffer.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pBUOf2gvSBUhGb2o1OiNAEHi74aDCIzzBlipks4JuQQi0BduhFjF5YUVrtlYkLzpQujxC16w0XCW47i97xu_q2wlJrDvnk-CaxlNuMPKnmC93Q94jjAjCfyWp03uW8goPkXew8otFdfZcQvWtppb9BA/MC20-TuneBlade-Zone.jpg)
TuneBlade
Configured with:
Buffered Streaming Mode 3 secs (mines also been stable at 250ms)
Direct Loopback and mute computer when streaming checked
Remote Control turned on so I can control the volume of the different AirPlay devices from the TuneBlade Remote App for iPhone.
Tick Auto-Connect under AirPlay Receivers for the AirPlay devices you want to automatically pickup the stream.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pr28KoIwCaI2164pLt_mUiccZIcm1VSAqQpxNnjpG0-iP_OObbE-tm31lmcAnPSXKKNH62YnfvSl47K6F5OaWWK83G712nKf1CE02Nq3i1lB3bMGDD3OP_pyyN5WKCjp0rWlk61BKOttFUNQ31eQY0A/BladeTune-Settings3.JPG)
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pDN7AdIj0eWVFhO68eXHLYhoa4a60Woqz5JmjJiOtAf2wyLL0wVCGDZaWEuWKuEqc6WRPqFA_o2TJ69uE9FWs8Dai4czn9-X5A4t_luYnSQWdPLTSjLHckwE7Eiqg2XZzuEg7E491-VaqV4fnT9fQpA/BladeTune-Settings.JPG)
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pcJf6lx658MhgXlPIYTCTNc3484-ecl4s6jFFeEMq2S7rYVT3eNFgx1aB1entuOyI24kMsLEcVKVvs6tv4HZC77G6OjwRyFRDpPtLJAtmOJdOMvGddN5VjE9Bz6vjVkBd8hirtlKusmbTpnCQpj6vrg/BladeTune-Settings2.JPG)
AirFoil Speakers
Everyone's setup will be unique but this is mine:
AirFoil Speaker is installed on my office PC, HTPC MC20 Server, Lounge PC, Surface Pro PC for the kitchen which is streaming to a Bluetooth Speaker.
Configured for start on login and play local through Primary Sound Driver.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pM710uB86VRCv-G7hlhtNhT4lzuPo4Zk0S6Ei_RaDQDND3LxuZ_5wdgB17JjQrBhpgPdubBt8Z8GN0brNq9JnWWBrbpTnmOXlaZbjmg4CWZZnDydLMfPLHne4vUG_N-XSxVN9H4bHfOtYG2or6OXjXw/AirFoil-Speaker.PNG)
This is the MC20 Machine with the synced audio coming via AirFoil, MC20 is logged into the NUC library and the TuneBlade-Airplay zone is selected to view and control the playlist. (No audio is being routed via MC20)
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pyTB4Zr5how4_BkgYyf6K51ZhbqohduRG7_BLAj9KWULDSkLFv5KMLvIVRcDZlnakFgLPUYHT3fzu0sJGfZWEZjBP0cZSkb_5i2OrrwAe7kGDBcgbcTghqbgLViztielJK_HyDm87TeE6KErSPFAayw/AirFoil-Speaker-MC20.JPG)
TuneBlade Remote
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2p4DM2aOfd6U6AzCyADGX49mNiKJ33IFTqo8ptVsZ2zNzWEMQOcH7KxNuPnXfTrEWYURlM25JQy34H77EwnLOZclqAEGElxZFi6LC7-96W7i3lmQn4fNQNZZ6KQG_0RRJBSqtFLOv_4esjSOmeawPv3Q/BladeTune-Remote.PNG?)
JRemote
Logged into the NUC MC20 Server with the BladeTune Zone selected.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pbgCgEvPqz9go-mkajyyt5BNo8OYiubBnwcWikM8T_SCQiUH-2Ia6BImwA_6REGLNVNO-OCU-kOjm_kArIxYQA2FEKEA0m-r363sPr57j7-4T0NemlksZAX7BtqWAIuAImJ7w9PHYwrNGVhyDeJ3ecw/JRemote_BladeTune-Remote-Zone_NUC-Server.PNG)
How it works?
Server
I have the NUC as the AirPlay Server running MC20 and it has my HTPC Server library loaded.
I playback the music from the HTPC Server library to the BladeTune-AirPlay zone.
The NUC MC20 audio is muted on playback and starts streaming via BladeTune.
Speakers
On the AirFoil Speakers machines with MC20 installed I have MC20 set to load the library from the NUC.
No audio is routed via MC20 on the AirFoil machines, it's just there as a display and control device, with the audio routing via the AirFoil Speaker driver to my default sound card.
For the kitchen Surface Pro I have the AirFoil Speaker routed to a portable Bluetooth speaker.
Remote Control
I have the TuneBlade Remote App on the iPhone to enable and disable AirFoil speakers and control the volume for each one individually.
I also use JRemote on the iPhone logged into the NUC to remotely control the playback and it also controls master volume.
For the MC20 on the NUC, the volume control is set to control Application Volume so it also acts as a master volume and doesn't accidently unmute the local playback.
It's a little complicated to setup compared to iTunes and native AirPlay but darn it, it works!
Couple things that'll help.
On your remote AirPlay machines which are running MC20 and AirFoil Speaker, make sure you load up the library of the MC20 machine which is acting as the AirPlay Server (TuneBlade) and select the AirPlay Zone so that when your viewing playlists they're always in sync and you can control playback from the source.
Not really directly relevant to this for AirPlay, but I have all my MC20 machines with mapped network drives and the same path to the local library on each machine. It's not a big thing, but it's tidier and when your pushing audio around with DLNA MC20 can pickup local drive mounts and play them directly from the server.
PS.
The NUC is actually my Id with another SSD drive with windows 8.1 on it.
It can run in headless mode too so it doesn't need to be plugged in to anything apart from power.
I've got it configured to autologin on boot with MC20 Server mode and the BladeTune set to automatically start at login.
I can move the NUC around the house plug it in and it'll all boot and start in AirPlay server mode automatically without a screen or keyb/mouse attached.
This is a custom streamlined build of Windows 8.1 with many features turned off. Things like autoupdates, UAC are also turned off and it has minimal other software installed.
It idles at 4% CPU with MC20 and TuneBlade running with no audio playing, and averages 17% CPU with a 16bit/44.1K FLAC streaming via TuneBlade.
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I've taken what Hiltonk has done and had a play as well as follows:
- "Airfoil" as the Audio Sender (on multiple MC PCs)
- "Airfoil Speaker" as the Audio Reciever on multiple PC's / HTPC etc, Andriod Devices, iPhones and a Pio A3 Speaker
The aim has been trying to Whole House Syncronised Audio aka "Party Mode" for both traditional Audio (audio files, radio streams etc) and also for Video (we on occasion setup a PJ with an outside Screen and I need to get the audio to a PA setup some 50m away). In all my attempts I've found several issues, such as:
- DLNA will not stay in sync
- Pushing audio from the HTPC running the PJ to the PA is tough (latest attempt is using long range BT but it can still drop out or Stardock Acoustic Bridge but it is just Point to Point between two Windows PC)
Thanks to Hiltonk's post I think I have a much better solution than before (not perfect but much better)!
I did try (and buy) Tune Blade but found it gave several Windows USB Errors. More importantly, the Airfoil Speaker Android client does not work with Tune Blade so that solution was no good for me.
I have however had some great success with just Airfoil, and here is how I've set it up that produces good sync and reliability for both Audio and Video/Audio distribution on two different PC's so far (see attached pics):
- Create a "Whole House" Zone and the configured it as
- Audio Device = WASAPI, Exclusive Acces, Disable Event Style (else you get static), 16-Bit, Minimum hw size
- DSP = Downmix to 2ch and 44.1 or 48KHz (the encoder seems to stuggle with 6ch-24bit-96khz)
- A/V Sync correction = "-2000"
Notes:
- Audio sync is "Good" but not "Perfect" - If I put all the devices in the one room you get a kind of echo effect but this would not be noticed if they were in different areas of the house (note they are a mix of OS, Hardwired, Wireless etc)
- The Android Airfoil Speaker app has as Sync Correction (they warn the Andriod can be out of sync) and I found 70ms was about right on my Nexus 7 tablet. For some reason the Config button does not appear on my G3 but that one is pretty good.
- On the PC running Airfoil and output the audio locally (by enabling the "Computer" in the Airfoil app) it is out of sync but if I use "Airfoil Speakers" on the same PC it is pretty good (see Pic 3)
Thanks
Nathan
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Glad to hear its working for you!
I'm sure there must be some way to simplify this further.
I guess if all you want is all of house synchronized Audio from MC20 you could just do the following:
AirFoil or TuneBlade Server installed on a machine running MC20 with a AirPlay Zone setup for your default sound card.
AirFoil Speaker setup where ever you want the audio.
Other AirPlay compatible devices.
JRemote or Gizmo for Remote control of MC20 on the AirFoil/TuneBlade server.
AirFoil or TuneBlade Remote on your mobile to control the AirPlay device volumes.
The real key to getting this to work was to setup a dedicated AirPlay Zone and mute playback at the server. Really it was that simple.
It may not be perfect, but gee I think it's pretty darn close. Used it all day today for a BBQ and it hasn't skipped a beat!
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Yeah I may have got over excited as I'm hearing some issues with longer playback streams. I'll need to test some more but it appears that while
the Android and Windows clients stay in Sync with each other they drift from the Video Playback and the Pio A3..... EDIT - it would appear that is the Andriod Client that drifts (not the other way around) - the become apparent when playing back a Video of which streams stayed in sync
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Yeah I may have got over excited as I'm hearing some issues with longer playback streams. I'll need to test some more but it appears that while the Android and Windows clients stay in Sync with each other they drift from the Video Playback and the Pio A3.....
Sorry to hear that. I think AirFoil uses a different buffering technique on the server compared with TuneBlade.
I hear strange speed-ups and slow-downs and hicups with AirFoil Server, especially at start up.
TuneBlade on the other hand, just jumps in and pretty much grabs sync straight away and doesn't drift unless your getting network errors.
It has a neat monitor that shows buffer, streaming quality and dropouts to each AirPlay device.
TuneBlade Monitoring
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2p0_SNGx3y7L7B3tu5cYoLtSKx5hTagSCVKjYDyZ26ik4GMBqmOCCF7EqWGXrFLhiud-fVoowY74ehfa902Dw8iveW1Jo_c6ZpTajwFUys6AfEByePSGbeHsmUUuZjsPLxr5tzKEHEz599EL3fjFuDPw/TuneBlade-Monitor.JPG)
PS I've settled on a 500ms buffer on TuneBlade and its been perfect all day.
Each stream uses about 1Mbit/s over the network when I look at the windows network monitor. 125000 bytes/s = 1Mbit
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Another way to get synced play is using the logitech media server with squeezeplay which emulates hardware squeezeboxes. You can sync those and play from Jrmc to them either with Dlna directly or through whitebear. You can even point squeezeplay instances on the client machines to the jriver wdm or asio driver to take advantage of its dsp.
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Need to find an andriod client to test tuneblade with...
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Another way to get synced play is using the logitech media server with squeezeplay which emulates hardware squeezeboxes. You can sync those and play from Jrmc to them either with Dlna directly or through whitebear. You can even point squeezeplay instances on the client machines to the jriver wdm or asio driver to take advantage of its dsp.
Thanks - sounds like something interesting and worth trying.
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Need to find an andriod client to test tuneblade with...
I guess you could try a few AirPlay Receiver Apps. There's only 1 for iPhone that I've found (AirFoil) which also doesn't work with TuneBlade, but there's a few Android AirPlay clients you could try.
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I managed to get synced audio looped back through the MC20 WDM driver.
I have completely different hardware and MC20 DSPs on my 2 main machines and as long as the WASAPI output driver buffers are the same on the receivers, the audio is in sync. (mine are both at 25ms - with one set at 100ms the delay was clearly audible)
This is the audio path now - MC20 Server > VB Virtual Cable Out (WASAPI) > VB Virtual Cable in (WASAPI) >TuneBlade > Wifi > AirFoil Speaker > MC20 WDM > WASAPI output device.
You may need to play with the final output buffer on MC20 WDM PCs to get them in sync with certified AirPlay devices.
Apple TV (Latest Generation) 5 milliseconds
AirPlay Speakers and HiFi AVRs 92 milliseconds
AirPort Express (Latest Generation) 140 milliseconds
AirPort Express (Old Generations) 350 milliseconds
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Sorry to hear that. I think AirFoil uses a different buffering technique on the server compared with TuneBlade.
I hear strange speed-ups and slow-downs and hicups with AirFoil Server, especially at start up.
TuneBlade on the other hand, just jumps in and pretty much grabs sync straight away and doesn't drift unless your getting network errors.
It has a neat monitor that shows buffer, streaming quality and dropouts to each AirPlay device.
Looks like AirFoil server trys to drift the clients back into sync by speeding up or slowing down, where TuneBlade just drops the missed packets to stay in sync.
Neither are a perfect solution but i'd rather have clients in sync than hear funky speed-ups and slow-downs where the clients drift out of sync.
Quote from TuneBlade
"When you stream to multiple receivers in real-time, TuneBlade will select the highest among the minimum acceptable latency of the connected receivers, so that all receivers can remain in sync."
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Just tried AirFoil server again it definitely doesn't sync as well as TuneBlade.
I also installed the Virtual Loopback VB-Cable for internal loopback on the server and it works great and shows some interesting info in the control panel.
There's a few settings too for fiddlers... :)
The default internal sample rate for the Virtual Cable is 96k. (you can change it)
The input sample rate is always the same as the source (obviously) but the output is set by whatever you set the output recording settings to in sound devices.
So the reality is, if your playing 24/96 it looks like it will be bitperfect, otherwise everything is upsampled or downsampled to 24/96. (if you have 24/96 set) You can change the internal and VB Audio Cable Output to whatever sample rate you want.
Originally I just set out to get distributed audio in sync, so I'll take upsampling to 24/96 as a bonus even though it wont always be bit perfect. :)
PS. I've also set the TuneBlade-AirPlay zone audio device in MC to the VB Audio Cable Input.
All other Zones will still of course playback through the other audio devices you have configured, and this way you can still use the other internal/external sound cards for other zones.
(https://ukqqpw.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pRDbZ9Z1CbLQ46HeirbcwMKjsvPisU_vY4De20keoTc9caHxpYWWF3CZN9Uxe5Yb62RECIAXHaigknIs2-pZTdz82hySQL1e1idHhra0So9XbCvSGSB-RFenJjIuzSTwsHg9KkxOgLJ_PUoodWm0utw/VB-Audio%20Virtual%20Cable.png)
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Also having more luck so far with TuneBlade pushing to the Pio A3, Andriod (Airplayer), PC (Airfoil Speakers). Had to lower the buffer in TuneBlade to 700ms to get them all in sync and prevent drift + then set the AV Sync Correction in MC to -900ms for video playback. So far all three have stayed in sync with the Video without drift though I'm getting the odd dropped packets (mostly to the PC running Airfoil speaker, but some to the Pio) and you can see it in the TuneBlade as you see red figures appear at that time. It certainly seems to do a better job than Airfoil Server. Will need to play with the buffers some more to see if I can get a balance between sync / drift / dropped packets.
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Sounds like you made great progress! Congrats!! ;D
In the TuneBlade FAQ it says if your getting dropouts you can use custom buffer mode and set it to up to 5 seconds. Not sure how that stuffs up your sync and latency issues but that's the recommendation.
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More testing with TuneBlade set with a 600ms custom buffer size and MC's AVSync at -850ms pushing to:
- Windows / Airfoil client on 2 PC's
- Andriod / Airplay client on 2 different devices
- Pio A3 Speaker
Stability is good with few drop outs and no drift so far at all.... but the Andriod / Airplay client does not have a customisable buffer and it is slightly out of sync.
I've posted this on the TuneBlade forum regarding Andriod Clients:
I've tried a few Android Clients (Tablets), in particular I'm looking for something that
- Will play in sync over multiple devices
- Minimise Dropouts with TuneBlade server
- Has a customisable name (as I have multiple devices)
- Has a customisable local buffer (to get sync just right on each devices)
- Can run as a background service from start up
So far I've tried:
- Airplayer : Overall Good Sync between players, low drop outs, but can not set a customisable name, no buffer adustment, can not start as a services from start up
- AirBubble : Lots of dropouts with TuneBlade (does the rest)
- AirPlay / Airplayer : Not a background servces when playing (puts up a GUI)
- AirFoil : Is not seen by TuneBlade
So far "Airplayer" is the best of the bunch I've tried
Thanks
Nathan
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Added a Apple AirPort Express and it plays nice as well (as you would expect!)
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Another way to get synced play is using the logitech media server with squeezeplay which emulates hardware squeezeboxes. You can sync those and play from Jrmc to them either with Dlna directly or through whitebear. You can even point squeezeplay instances on the client machines to the jriver wdm or asio driver to take advantage of its dsp.
Gave this a go (and I may have stuff wrong), but it looks like the combo presents as DLNA renderers so I have sync issues between devices. I also can not play a video and send the audio to these devices.
Thanks
Nathan
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Another day of playing! So far "reasonably" good with:
TuneBlade set with a 600ms custom buffer size and MC's AVSync at -850ms pushing both pure Audio and Video's Audio in sync to:
- Windows / Airfoil client on 2 PC's
- Andriod / Airplayer clients on multiple Tablets and Phones
- Pio A3 Speaker (native Airplay)
- AirPort Express (native Airplay)
In MC I have created one Zone called "Whole House" that pushes the audio (from video or audio) to an Audio Device that TuneBlade in turn pushes out to all the connected devices (both wired and wireless).
Stability is good with few drop outs and no drift so far at all.... but the Andriod / Airplayer client does not have a customisable buffer and it is slightly out of sync. This is not really an issue as being in different rooms you don't notice it. There are some shortcomings for the Airplayer app on Android and I've e-mailed the developer to see if (s)he will entertain adding:
1) Configurable Initial Buffer (Airplayer tends to be slightly out of sync of the other devices and it can vary by device / connection)
2) Configurable Device Name (as I have several of them and they are all named the same)
3) Option to Auto start on Boot
I'm most interested in #2 and #3 as you would not notice the slight sync issue with the devices in different rooms.
So I can now crank up Whole House Audio pushing content from a Control Point (like Gizmo/EOS) to:
- HTPC's running Airfoil Clients
- Airplay Clients (like my Pio or the AirPort Express Audio Out feeding a PA style system)
- Android Tablets in each room
This includes playing
- Audio,
- Radio (steaming), and
- Video on one MC instance (say a PJ) and having the Audio pipe out to all the clients
Say about.... 90% good!
Things to note:
- The Android app does not start as a service on boot
- In TuneBlade you have to sometimes stop/start an individual device to get it to play audio (I've only seen this on the PC/Airfoil clients)
- You have to pick your Andriod Clients with care as of all the ones I tested only
- I did not bother testing an iOS client
- I tested all the Android Air Play Receivers I could find and most of them would either drift or have a heap of drop outs with TuneBlade
- The Airfoil Client for PC works well with Tune Blade but neither the iOS or Andriod Client will
- The Airfoil Server seems to allow content to drift (I've e-mailed the developer and pointed to this thread). It would be great to just use Airfoil as one licence fees covers the Server, Win, Andriod, and iOS client.... but so be it!
Apart from the above, this is not 100% as it is cobbling a bunch of stuff together instead of it just being part of MC natively...(one day!)
Any other ideas appreciated! I now need to find a portable Airplay speaker with a line out Jack to feed my outside setup (the Pio A3 is perfect minus the Line Out jack unless I can mod it somehow).
Thanks
Nathan
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You have been a busy boy. Glad I was able to get you interested enough to tinker and that you had such good results.
I hope the better half hasn't sentenced you to purgatory for neglecting household duties! ;)
Between the two of us we've got this AirPlay thing licked... now on to bigger and better things.. What's next! :) Intercom? :P
PS. Can you please elaborate a little more on how your doing video to PJ with audio via TuneBlade as I have a need for the same.
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Normally we use the PJ and a fixed screen in the house with a traditional AVR setup. On occasions we relocate the PJ so it can project to an outside screen (one of those 5m stretchy screens). While I have wired Ethernet at this point, there is no AV run to get the audio to the outside amp (hence I've been using stuff like Class 1 long range BT sender / receivers but they can still drop out and are fiddly).
The video is being played from an MC Client on an HTPC (NUC or Laptop) connected to the the PJ via HDMI pulling content from a Library Server (over wired Ethernet). The Audio on this HTPC will then go to the "Whole House" Zone that is playing to TuneBlade that then pushes it to the audio renderers. I plan to use the Airport Express's audio port to then feed it into the outside amp as well as to Pio etc.
I'm plan to use the Compute Stick (Win 10 + MC) when it arrives instead of the NUC or Laptop directly into the back of the PJ for these portable duties.
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I plan to use the Airport Express's audio port to then feed it into the outside amp as well as to Pio etc.
Ahh this was the bit that was missing.
I just got a similar setup working but running the video in MC20 on the AirPlay Zone in the projector room running video locally to the projector and routing audio out through TuneBlade and then back to the same machine via AirFoil. I used the same sync settings you mentioned and lipsync is pretty close and the audio is in sync on the other machines throughout the house.
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I'm plan to use the Compute Stick (Win 10 + MC) when it arrives instead of the NUC or Laptop directly into the back of the PJ for these portable duties.
Im going to order a couple of different devices myself to play with in the same way.
One I want to try is the device I linked to in my other thread in the Id Forum, and also one of those universal DLNA/AirPlay/Miracast/Widi HDMI sticks.
I've already got a chromecast but its pretty limited with MC20.
Apple TV form-factor running windows8.1 with the same processor as the Intel Compute Stick.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=94788.msg655014#msg655014
All-in-one HDMI dongles which supports DLNA/AirPlay/Miracast/Widi
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HI763-WIFI-Display-Dongle-Adapter-Miracast-DLNA-AirPlay-for-Android-Smartphone-Tablet-iPhone-iPad/1611245110.html
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A couple of things to note- most of the major AVR manufacturers (marantz, denon, onkyo etc) now support airplay *in* their receivers.
An Airport express is a decent solution, but there are a couple of factors to be aware of- 1. Any audio that's higher bitrate than 44khz/16bit will be downsampled to 44khz/16bit silently by the airport.
Also, while apple is *pretty* good with their hardware, they don't tend to be audiophile-grade picky about their components, so I don't *really* trust the power supply and timer chips in the airport express, so it may present with jitter to the AV receiver.
At the end of the day, I actually recommend getting an AV receiver with airplay built into it, as I expect the quality of the oscillator chip used to re-time the airplay signal is substantially higher, and the AVR manufacturers may well support higher bitrates across airplay without re-sampling the audio. This is assuming that you're being audiophile-picky about your sound.
Good to hear of tuneblade- I have been using airfoil for windows to transmit from my JRiver to my AVR, without any drops, but I'm only attempting to transmit to one destination, so that's got something to do with it. I'll have to take a look at tuneblade to see if it's VB controllable; airfoil added that a while ago, so presumably I could create a remote app to control it.
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At the end of the day, I actually recommend getting an AV receiver with airplay built into it, as I expect the quality of the oscillator chip used to re-time the airplay signal is substantially higher, and the AVR manufacturers may well support higher bitrates across airplay without re-sampling the audio. This is assuming that you're being audiophile-picky about your sound.
Interesting thread, good research, and happy vibes to you persistent tinkerers...
What to do if an AVR receiver just isn't one's cup of tea (because, oh, they don't weigh nearly enough... :P)?
Over on DIY Audio I'm following threads in which headless ARM development boards are being used as Linux servers into people's *over-the-top* audiophile DACs. The board-du-jour was formerly the Raspberry-PI but now is the Beaglebone Black (BBB - $50-$55), running an A8 chip at 1GHz. It needs a better master clock and integration of these is essentially solved. But right now, this board will accept airplay signals (using FREE Volumio software) and output I2S, the preferred signal for best DAC performance. Two points: 1) IMO, Airplay really HAS become the defacto standard and this inexpensive Linux interface to 'high-end' is going to set new standards for quality. 2) I've just begun playing with the BBB and all my Mac hardware can see it and control it, all day long. As this DIY effort progresses, it will become my new DSP crossover and high-quality DAC interface in a bi-amped rig. Sometimes it will be a stand-alone NAS music client (w/ DSD 128 and PCM up to 384/32!), sometimes it will be a zone slave when we are in house party/cleaning mode.
JRiver has a Linux->ARM development project. The Linux->ARM server space is surprisingly well developed, with Volumio and RuneAudio leading. If Volumio can integrate the slave side of Airplay open-source for free, it seems to me that 'the bar is set'. +1 for Airplay!
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Gave this a go (and I may have stuff wrong), but it looks like the combo presents as DLNA renderers so I have sync issues between devices. I also can not play a video and send the audio to these devices.
Thanks
Nathan
It's been a while since I tried it myself. I think it worked by first syncing the (virtual) squeezeboxes together and then send music to one of them from jriver. I did have the whitebear server in between. Ie jriver to whitebear to logitech media server.
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I play all my sources now through the jrmc dsp for room correction thanks to the wdm driver. The only thing missing was our Apple tv. I already used airserver on the htpc as an AirPlay receiver connected to the wdm driver to AirPlay to the HTPC. But I had forgotten that Apple TV now supports sending the sound to an other AirPlay device. So I selected airserver on the Apple TV and after adjusting the sync settings a bit in airserver it works really well. (You have to select the video instance and not the audio only instance of the airserver receiver on the Apple tv. Adjusting the sync latency does not work for the latter for some reason.)
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I picked up another Apple TV 3 cheap this week to create another AirPlay zone.
I'm now in a dilemma for how to get the digital audio out of it for analogue RCA or 3.5mm jack for external amps/speakers.
I looked in the powered speakers Id thread and there's a few options there for powered speakers but I'm leaning towards using existing mini hifi and other speakers I have around the house.
Do you think I'd be better of with:
A HDCP compliant HDMI extractor that passes through HDMI and offers analogue audio out for $80;
HDMI Audio Extractor
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AC1741 &form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1014#4 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AC1741 &form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1014#4)
or
HDMI to VGA + Stereo Audio Converter for $25 (wont use the VGA)
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AC1724 &form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1014#4 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AC1724 &form=CAT2&SUBCATID=1014#4)
or
An optical to analogue converter for $35.
FiiO D03K Coaxial/Optical to R/L Audio Converter http://www.minidisc.com.au/headphones-earphones/headphone-amps-dacs/portable-amps-dacs/fiio-d03k-coaxialoptical-to-rl-audio-converter-p-1100153.html
Jmone,
How are you getting audio out of your android devices for amplification?
My bigger experiment later on will be with some of the more expensive Android media players with AirPlay support that have analogue and digital outputs.
Is there a better way to get AirPlay analogue audio that I haven't thought of?
I want it to be simple, tidy and cost effective. Im leaning towards the FiiO DAC.
Thoughts?
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Yeah - I decided again the Apple TV due to the lack of analog audio out and needing another widget (hence got the AirPort Express). I've used the jcar converter before and it was ok + it would leave your HDMI port free as well so you could use both/either.
I also got this back from the Airfoil guys.
Hi Nathan,
Airfoil transmits audio according to the AirPlay audio protocol, which specifies a 16-bit stereo Apple Lossless stream at a 44.1 kHz sample rate - so, it may need to resample audio on your machine to transmit it properly to remote speakers. Airfoil Speakers for Android should include synchronization controls, though, if you haven't tried that yet.
--
Chris Barajas
Rogue Amoeba
Looks like there is no point pushing higher than 44.1/16/2 into the servers as would have to covert anyway. I'll have to give it a go again with MC downmixing it all to 44.1/16/2 and see if there is still drift (I did notice the issue was worst with 96/14/6 sources!).
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Thanks for the update Nathan!
The Airport express is definitely the tidiest option, but the Apple TV does offer a lot more for the same money. If only they'd put an analogue out on the ATV!
I ended up getting a couple of the HDMI Audio extractors since they are more versatile and can be used for other things in the future, the only downer is the coiled HDMI cable I'll need to use. At least they don't need power! I'll have to find an OTG HDMI to HDMI type cable. (ie super short one)
I found this male to male adaptor. Will do the job nicely. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Standard-HDMI-male-to-HDMI-male-Adapter-Connector-A-type/32222000823.html?currencyType=AUD&af=ppc&isdl=y&src=Google&albch=Google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&cv=1020800000008006&ptsid=1020000000012141&crea=56546947201&plac=&netw=g&device=c&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&cv=1020000000012141&gclid=CIO90p7wusMCFUcJvAod5icA2g (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Standard-HDMI-male-to-HDMI-male-Adapter-Connector-A-type/32222000823.html?currencyType=AUD&af=ppc&isdl=y&src=Google&albch=Google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&cv=1020800000008006&ptsid=1020000000012141&crea=56546947201&plac=&netw=g&device=c&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&cv=1020000000012141&gclid=CIO90p7wusMCFUcJvAod5icA2g)
PS. Are you using Android Tablet Docks with analogue audio out?
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HDMI Audio Extractor works great on the Apple TV. :)
Everything in Perfect Sync to five different AirPlay devices.
Got AirPlay streaming in sync with:
NUC with MC20 and an AirPlay zone setup for TuneBlade > AirPlay
AirPlay 1 - Lounge - Apple TV3 HDMI > TV RCA back out to an AMP - MC20 on the TV screen with NUC AirPlay Zone in theatre mode
AirPlay 2 - Kitchen - Apple TV2 HDMI > HDMI Extractor > 3.5mm mini jack to iPhone Speaker Dock line in - iPhone showing JRemote AirPlay Zone
AirPlay 3 - Office - PC AirFoil > Optical into my Logitech Z5500 - MC20 on the monitor with NUC AirPlay Zone in theatre mode
AirPlay 4 - Theatre - HTPC AirFoil > MC20 WDM > MC20 DSPs > Essence STX II 7.1 > Analogue 7.1 into AMP - MC20 on the Projector with NUC AirPlay Zone in theatre mode
AirPlay 5 - Outside - Surface Pro Tablet AirFoil > Bluetooth > Bluetooth Speaker - MC20 on the Surface Pro tablet with NUC AirPlay Zone in theatre mode (ok this one is just very slightly delayed because of the Bluetooth, if I run sound locally from the tablet headphone out or a USB DAC its perfect)
JRemote on the iPad in Lounge
JRemote and TuneBlade Remote on iPhone 6+ in my pocket
Perfect :)
Added another 6th Android AirPlay device tonight on a Playon.me AV100 using AirBubble. Got it perfect in sync with a 2 second buffer on TuneBlade. 300ms Audio Buffer on AirBubble with an initial sync buffer of 275ms.
I got this box free with the purchase of the DVDfab suite and I completely forgot about it. It runs Gizmo too. :)
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Sounds good! The Andriod stuff all has headphone out that I've used before....but I try to use Wired network connections when possible (hence the AirPort Express)
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I want it to be simple, tidy and cost effective. Im leaning towards the FiiO DAC.
Thoughts?
Certainly in terms of bang/buck, I agree with the FiiO D03K. Here is a great article that describes its design and build: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/inside-fiio-d3/
For a modest link in the audio chain, it has lots of potential - including supply of I2S should you wish to drive a better DAC chip. I'd use one (and tweak it!) were it not that the DIY DAC currently on my drawing board will do the same thing plus have its own Airplay receiver.
Cheers,
Frank
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Below is the development effort for Shairport-Sync which provides AirPlay sync on Linux using the ALSA backend audio.
This is different than the original Shairport because it more closely follows Apples latest AirPlay spec and makes use of NTP to keep in sync where the original Shairport only supported the v1 AirPlay standard and didn't support sync.
https://github.com/mikebrady/shairport-sync
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I am coming out again as not tech savvy enough to follow this thread, though still curious, willing to learn and hopefully able to make the right purchasing decisions (ID, more Sonos, dedicated streamer ...).
I got MC on my PC, my stereo connected to an airport express (with DAC in the middle). Using JRemote, I can access my music and, via airplay, play it to my stereo.
What is it that is not working?
- Is about synchronized playing of music in various rooms (zones)?
- About needing to use my iphone = battery drainage?
- About music not streamed in best possible quality (flac, bit perfect)?
I guess I'd like to understand what capabilities I am missing out on by not fully comprehending this discussion, especially when I am quite content with what I have. I know that MC is capable of much more than I use it for, and I regret not having time exploring all features to the deepest level. I wish there were more how-to guides out. The wealth of capabilities always make me think 'my music setup could be more feature rich and of better Sound Quality'.
The way that I use Airplay - anything wrong with it?
Thanks!
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I am coming out again as not tech savvy enough to follow this thread, though still curious, willing to learn and hopefully able to make the right purchasing decisions (ID, more Sonos, dedicated streamer ...).
I got MC on my PC, my stereo connected to an airport express (with DAC in the middle). Using JRemote, I can access my music and, via airplay, play it to my stereo.
What is it that is not working?
- Is about synchronized playing of music in various rooms (zones)?
- About needing to use my iphone = battery drainage?
- About music not streamed in best possible quality (flac, bit perfect)?
I guess I'd like to understand what capabilities I am missing out on by not fully comprehending this discussion, especially when I am quite content with what I have. I know that MC is capable of much more than I use it for, and I regret not having time exploring all features to the deepest level. I wish there were more how-to guides out. The wealth of capabilities always make me think 'my music setup could be more feature rich and of better Sound Quality'.
The way that I use Airplay - anything wrong with it?
Thanks!
TuneBlade allows synchronised audio which works with the Apple AirPlay protocol. It stays in sync a little better than linked zones in media center. (ok... a lot better for some people, me included.)
If your not happy with media center linked zones being slightly out of sync then TuneBlade will work better for you than linked zones.
Media center Linked zones will keep the original quality of the files. Looking into the AirPlay specs, it appears that certified AirPlay devices will downsample to 16bit 44.1kHz.
Currently there's no official support for AirPlay in MC20 or the Id so I wouldn't expect it any-time soon on the Id. You can however build micro windows 7/8/10 PC's using the Intel NUC, Intel HDMI stick or similar and install the Airfoil program to make it AirPlay enabled. You still need to install TuneBlade on your MC20 media server to use AirPlay. You also need to create a dedicated AirPlay zone on the server.
If that's too much for you, I'd suggest waiting to see what JRiver come up with in the future. I can highly recommend the JRiver Id if you don't feel up to playing and tinkering with software because the Id is pretty much plug n play. It just works. Of course you wont get AirPlay or perfect sync with linked zones using the Id, but it works great as a high quality music player and video playback is getting better.
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Gave my Lenovo Tiny PC M72E a clean up. I installed Windows 10 preview and the dropout issues I was having with the AirPlay receiver (Airfoil) have been magically fixed.
I could see the dropped packets in the TuneBlade monitoring and now they're completely gone.
It was running windows 7 Pro so it's likely a windows 8 or a clean win 7 build would have fixed it too.
I tried a dozen or so different things to fix it from playing with lots of network card settings and disabling services, checking DPC latency and it looks like it was a bigger issue.
Very pleased its fixed and working with Win 10 because now I can put it back into service again in the Lounge room for TV and MC duties.
I'll be loading it up with 4 USB tuners and trying it out as a TiVO replacement and of course use it as an AirPlay receiver.
For anyone that's interested in Win 10 I did an in place upgrade from win 7 pro to win 10. So far everything works great. I can only recommend Win 10 if your a tinkerer as its still only in preview.
Backup your system before you upgrade if you're going to try it just in case.
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If that's too much for you, I'd suggest waiting to see what JRiver come up with in the future. I can highly recommend the JRiver Id if you don't feel up to playing and tinkering with software because the Id is pretty much plug n play. It just works. Of course you wont get AirPlay or perfect sync with linked zones using the Id, but it works great as a high quality music player and video playback is getting
Thanks, Hiltonk.
I mostly play music just in one zone. It seems that ID, connected to NAS and remote controlled via JRemote and playing to an Airport Express, is what I need for now (playing to 'This Device' and choosing the airport express in the device's AirPlay option). Costs more than the the free Plex server, but I dislik that controller a lot.
I am just not clear what quality reaches my DAC in this set up (optical from Airport Express) - is it FLAC or does it get transcoded on its way. But that's another story, albeit harsh to research.
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Thanks, Hiltonk.
I mostly play music just in one zone. It seems that ID, connected to NAS and remote controlled via JRemote and playing to an Airport Express, is what I need for now (playing to 'This Device' and choosing the airport express in the device's AirPlay option). Costs more than the the free Plex server, but I dislik that controller a lot.
I am just not clear what quality reaches my DAC in this set up (optical from Airport Express) - is it FLAC or does it get transcoded on its way. But that's another story, albeit harsh to research.
With the audio going from JRemote to the airport express everything is downsampled to 16/44.1 ALAC.
That's no fault of JRemote or MC20. That's the limit of AirPlay.
If you connect your DAC to MC20 or an Id you can output whatever your DAC is capable of decoding.
If you connect a DAC to your iPhone/iPad with a iPhone camera connection kit, using JRemote with the DAC it will have a limit of 24/96 FLAC. (with most external DACs)
You could just connect the DAC to your Id and mount the NAS in the Id library. You can still control with JRemote.
That way your getting the best possible quality FLAC or DSD decoding (or bitstreaming) directly to your DAC.
I feel like being generous tonight, so I'll make you a diagram that shows the connectivity options, i'm sure others will appreciate too.
Here's a start for a guide. I'll get to your configuration in detail next if you can list out what components hardware and software your using.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95634.0
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Wow, there is a lot of good information in this topic since I last checked it.
I've just spent all evening doing a lot of testing to see if my previous AirPlay setup could be improved, and it has been - dramatically!
I will try to keep this as short as possible, but the really short version is:
- Use TuneBlade as your server. Airfoil is dead to me now.
- Use VB-Audio's Hi-Fi Cable driver (http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/) as the input for TuneBlade if you want an "AirPlay Zone" in MC rather than capturing all system audio.
So what are the main improvements over the previous setup?
- It turns out that Airfoil (and VB-cable) were attenuating higher frequencies.
- TuneBlade allows you to specify the playback device that it switches to when you enable streaming. (Airfoil always forced its driver, which I did not want)
- TuneBlade supports IP-based connections, so you are no longer required to run Bonjour on the PC if you don't want it.
- TuneBlade can be left on 24/7 due to the standby feature (this is huge)
1) I was very surprised to see that high frequencies were being attenuated once I set things up so that I could actually monitor the incoming signal on my PC.
Here is the original signal, just full bandwidth white noise:
(http://abload.de/img/originalomuwl.png) (http://abload.de/img/originalomuwl.png)
And this is what I was getting back from Airfoil; a 12dB reduction in the high frequencies:
(http://abload.de/img/filteredxxuqd.png) (http://abload.de/img/filteredxxuqd.png)
After a lot of testing to see where this was happening, I narrowed it down to the output stage of their driver.
And after doing further testing using TuneBlade rather than Airfoil, it turns out that the issue here is VB-cable, which the Airfoil driver is based upon.
While there are no controls for the Airfoil driver, VB-cable comes with a utility that lets you set the internal latency and sample rate that it uses, but whenever I tried this it just seemed to be fixed at 96kHz.
And it's this upsampling and subsequent filtering when converting back down to 44.1kHz which is attenuating the higher frequencies.
Airfoil's driver must be operating at a different rate (I'd guess 48kHz) because the filtering was far less when using VB-cable and its 96kHz internal rate.
Hi-Fi cable, on the other-hand will only output at the sample rate that it is sent.
So if you send it a 44.1kHz input, it stays 44.1kHz all the way through to the output.
After switching from Airfoil/VB-cable to Hi-Fi Cable in TuneBlade, the output perfectly matches the input.
When using Hi-Fi Cable, be sure to configure the zone in Media Center so that it converts everything to 16-bit/44.1 kHz, since the driver itself will not do any conversions.
And on that note, since AirPlay is limited to 16-bit, I'd really suggest that you disable Media Center's dither (RPDF) and use a VST plug-in that supports TPDF dither instead if you want the best sound quality possible.
2) Not much to say about this one.
When you set Airfoil to transmit "System Audio" (i.e. use the VB-cable device) it would switch the default playback device on the system to that one.
That may be useful if you want it to transmit system sounds to all your speakers, but that's not what I wanted at all.
Using the "System Audio" option was the only way to have Airfoil configured to work as a separate zone in MC, but it meant that I'd have to enable playback and then switch the default device back over to my PC speakers every single time.
TuneBlade lets you specify what it sets as the default device when enabling streaming, which I can just configure as my speakers so that nothing changes.
It would be nice if it let you select "default device" as an option here, so that it just left the device at whatever was currently selected (because sometimes that's a sound card rather than the speakers) but it's a big improvement over Airfoil.
No more enabling Airfoil, forgetting to change the device back, and then blasting YouTube/web ads/system sounds over the house at 100% volume!
3) I have not tested it, but there seems to be an option in TuneBlade to configure a device based on IP rather than using Bonjour.
If all your devices have fixed IP addresses, it's one less thing you need to have installed and running on the PC.
Of course not having Bonjour installed also means that any new devices will not be found automatically.
But that's one of the things I had hoped to see as an option for Airfoil a long time ago.
4) TuneBlade has a standby feature! I've been asking the Airfoil devs for this for years now!
After a user-defined period of silence, ranging from 10 seconds to 20 minutes, TuneBlade will drop the connection to your AirPlay receivers.
But the connection remains on "standby" in TuneBlade, so if you start playing audio on the PC again, it will reconnect and resume playback on the receivers.
This means that I can leave TuneBlade enabled 24/7 now, because it only connects to the receivers when it's actually playing music.
Now any time it's not playing music, everyone else can still send audio to the receivers via their phones/tablets.
AirFoil just transmitted silence indefinitely, so it prevented anyone else from playing music to the receivers when it was enabled.
And constantly enabling/disabling it was a nuisance due to #2
What I will say is that standby does not seem to work with the "Specific Endpoint" option, which is why I recommend that you use Hi-Fi Cable and the "Virtual Device Loopback" option.
I'm not sure about the "Direct Loopback" option. I'd guess that it won't work with that either, but since that is the "Capture all system audio" option, I won't ever be using it.
So now I have an AirPlay Zone in Media Center which just works when I start playing music to it.
It should be "bit-perfect" now, and I no longer have to worry about whether or not the Airfoil app is running/enabled/configured correctly on the PC.
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Another TuneBlade convert! ;)
Nice work!
I'll be writing up a simple guide with a Diagram for this in the next week in my "What can you do with JRiver Media Center" thread in the Network forum.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95634.0
I'll pick your brain for some help in case I've missed anything.
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I just wanted to say how nice it is being able to return to this after a day and a half, just hit play on an album, and still have it transmit to all my AirPlay devices without having to do anything else.
Any time in the last year or two that I've been using Airfoil, I've always had to run through to the PC and configure it beforehand, because it's not possible to leave that running all the time.
With TuneBlade, I can just leave it on all the time, and—when using the Virtual Device Loopback functionality at least—I can set the standby time to 10 seconds so that it's as easy as stopping playback, and a few seconds after you hear the music stop, you are able to send audio to the receivers from another device.
However, the latter is only possible because I am using a VST plug-in to dither the signal.
Proper TPDF dither does not allow for absolute silence to exist, so even if I play a file which consists entirely of zero values, there is some very low-level noise being played which keeps the connection active.
Media Center's RPDF dither does allow for absolute silence, which means that standby can be triggered during particularly long pauses in a song or silence at the end of a track, so you would probably want it set to at least 30-60 seconds to prevent this from happening.
You may want a long duration on it anyway so that it doesn't drop the connection if you pause playback for a couple of minutes, but with the way that we use things here, it's more important that the receivers are freed up quickly when someone wants to connect with their own device.
I wondered if anyone had suggestions for AirPlay clients on the PC.
I've tried the latest Shairport4w and Airfoil Speakers, and Airfoil seems to do a much better job with sync.
It seems to mostly be in sync automatically without any manual configuration - though it also does not offer any manual sync adjustments if the device you're playing on has additional latency that needs corrected.
Oh and for what it's worth, leave the volume control at the default "50%" position. I haven't see any difference between the default state and 100%, but the default volume position plays back exactly what you send it, so I'd just leave it alone.
Shairport4w does not seem to support automatic sync at all, and in my setup 427 frames ±1 seemed to be about right for staying in sync with my AirPort Express v1 and TuneBlade at the 3000ms buffer size.
But every time I start the stream to that device, the sync is just a little bit off from what it was before, and I suspect that it won't be doing anything to correct for drift over time.
I know that someone mentioned shairport-sync, but as far as I can see, I don't think there is a Windows version of that.
Are there any other clients worth trying, or is it best to stick with Airfoil Speakers for now?
Something else I've found that is worth mentioning, is that my AirPort Express v1 devices will not work if I use the custom buffer option in TuneBlade set to the maximum 5000ms. The largest buffer size they work with is the 3 second option.
So if you're wondering why only some receivers are playing audio, that could be why.
It may be best to use the "standard" 2 second option, but 3 seconds has not caused any issues thus far, and I prefer the additional stability this may provide over latency.
Ideally latency would be zero and playback would never be interrupted, but things being what they are, a 3 second delay is fine.
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Oh, and don't forget—because I did—that if you are using the standby option, to have Media Center play silence for hardware synchronization for the same length of time as your buffer size.
Anything less than this was cutting off the beginning of the first track.
It's possible that 3 seconds just happens to be both the duration of the buffer I'm using in TuneBlade and the correction in MC, and that my AirPort Express v1 just needs a 6 second delay regardless of the buffer size, but it seems more likely that they need to be set to the same duration.
Yes, it adds more latency, and 6 seconds seems to be about the length of time that you're beginning to wonder "did it actually start?" but I'm sure that I'll get used to it soon. Or I'll decide to reduce the buffer size.
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Like some of the folks in this thread, I’ve been frustrated over the years about the lack of non-DLNA streaming options available from JRiver. I’ve been an Airfoil user for many years in order to compensate, but that utility has several issues of its own, many of which have been well-enumerated by 6233638 :)
My two main frustrations with Airfoil (server) are: once it’s hooked to a destination device, it won’t let go; and its unerring ability to crash and suck all audio with it when fed data it didn’t expect (be it from a multi-channel video or a high-resolution audio or...etc.)
TuneBlade seems to give me some hope that these inadequacies can be overcome—however, after an afternoon poking and prodding at my setup, I am at a loss. :(
In an ideal world, I’d love to configure things so that when I play a video file, it plays in one zone—without worrying about what my AirPlay server (be it Airfoil or TuneBlade) is doing. When I play an audio file, it plays (synchronously) from the local machine as well as any AirPlay devices I want to enable—and without regard to whether it’s an AC3 music file, a DTS/WAV, or some other oddity that might crop up in my library. Finally, I need to target those various AirPlay devices from other sources when done playing music from MC.
I’ve configured MC’s Zone Switch feature to properly send Video file types to one zone, and Audio file types to another zone—no problems there.
I’ve installed the latest version of TuneBlade, and am able to stream from the server to the Airplay clients with good sync (a 400ms buffer set in TuneBlade). This works well with the “Direct Loopback” audio capture mode. However, when I unmute the computer speakers, the server plays back at least 400ms ahead of the rest of the audio.
I’ve installed the VB Hi-Fi Cable Output audio driver, but am not quite sure what to do with it or if it will help. The whole 'loopback' process seems to add complexity without providing any real gains in abilities--am I wrong? :)
I’ve still got Airfoil (and Airfoil Speakers) installed on the server. I tried sending audio from MC->Default Audio Device->TuneBlade (Direct Loopback)->Airfoil Speakers, but end up with a cascade of delayed sound.
I feel like this should be simpler than I’m making it, but can’t seem to find my way through the weeds.
Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Brad
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I’ve installed the VB Hi-Fi Cable Output audio driver, but am not quite sure what to do with it or if it will help. The whole 'loopback' process seems to add complexity without providing any real gains in abilities--am I wrong? :)
Direct Loopback captures all audio playing on the PC.
So if someone is using AirPlay to listen to music, and someone else starts watching YouTube videos on the PC, that YouTube audio will be sent to all of the AirPlay clients.
Using Virtual Device Loopback with Hi-Fi Cable gives you an additional sound device that can be configured as a Zone in Media Center.
Anything played inside that Zone will be sent to all the AirPlay clients, but anything outside of that Zone (e.g. YouTube on the PC speakers) will stay local to the PC.
So TuneBlade is set to capture audio from Hi-Fi Cable, but it is configured to set my PC speakers as the default playback device:
(http://abload.de/img/tuneblade-loopback65uxd.png)
If you were to set both to Hi-Fi Cable, you're essentially just replicating the muted Direct Loopback functionality.
Media Center is then configured with a Zone that sends audio to Hi-Fi Cable:
(http://abload.de/img/airplay-zonecbup8.png)
As mentioned in my previous posts, be sure that you have the output configured to use exclusive access, 16-bit audio, and have everything resampled to 44.1kHz in the Output Format DSP.
Since TuneBlade sets the PC speakers as the default sound device, this Zone is the only thing which can play audio to Hi-Fi Cable. (which then gets sent over AirPlay)
The Airfoil Speakers client running on the PC is then configured to play audio to the PC speakers:
(http://abload.de/img/airfoil-speakersw8u6e.png)
This should mean that any audio sent over AirPlay is kept in sync across all devices, including the PC.
And you won't run into a feedback loop where TuneBlade is capturing audio from the same device that the Airfoil Speakers app is playing to.
If you want to use the Standby feature without any additional configuration, I would set it to something like 60 seconds, because silences between tracks or silent parts of tracks may trigger standby due to the dither that Media Center uses allowing for absolute silence.
If you want to use a really short duration for standby like the minimum of 10 seconds, you really need to use a plug-in that adds TPDF dither.
The reason this works is because TPDF dither does not allow for absolute silence, so even when there is an extended period of silence in a song or between tracks, there's always a very low level amount of noise being played and that keeps the connection active.
When playback stops you get silence though, so the receivers are released after 10 seconds.
Now I haven't done any extensive testing, but I just had a quick look around for a free VST plug-in to do this, and the mda Dither (http://mda.smartelectronix.com/effects.htm) plug-in seems to work well for this purpose.
Its configuration doesn't appear to work in MC, but the default output is 16-bit TPDF dither with the proper amplitude, and a reasonable amount of noise shaping.
Now I don't know that I'd disable MC's dither and replace it with this plug-in (I'd probably spend the money to get a commercial plug-in like TB-Dither for stereo or Voxengo Elephant if you need multichannel if you wanted to replace MC's dither entirely) but it should be fine to run this on top of MC's own RPDF. I don't foresee it having any detrimental effects if you just use it in the AirPlay Zone.
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OK, I did some further latency testing.
As stated on the TuneBlade website, the minimum buffer size that works with the original AirPort Express v1 devices is 350ms.
I expected that it just wouldn't be stable below that, but it doesn't play audio at all.
So the range that you can use with this hardware is 350-3000ms.
And as posted here (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95728.msg659420#msg659420), it turns out that most people think that something has gone wrong when you have 3 seconds of latency and hit the play/pause/skip button again because it's taking so long.
From the testing that I have done, I don't seem to be running into any problems using the minimum 350ms buffer size for that hardware with TuneBlade.
I'd need to do more testing that to see if it is stable over longer periods of time, but it seems to be fine.
However I was wrong in my assumption that the "play silence for hardware synchronization" would have to be matched to the TuneBlade buffer size when using standby.
It turns out that it needs to be set to 3 seconds with AirPort Express v1 hardware regardless of the buffer size.
But the reduced buffer size still means that seeking, volume adjustments, or other playback controls are far more responsive than they were before. It just takes 3.35 seconds whenever you start playback before you hear anything.
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Thanks so much for the pointers! I did have this all working at one point yesterday, but in my quest for simplification, lost it. Now it's back! The only portion of your tips I was unable to figure out was how to force the sampling to 44.1/16. I saw in DSP studio that you can force the sample rate, but I couldn’t find the bit depth setting….
In all my messing around, I did come up with some instabilities--Airfoil Speakers doesn't like it when you change the default Windows audio device, and neither does TuneBlade. Speakers would often crash and TuneBlade would hang at various points as I attempted to force the audio to travel the path I sought. Hopefully these little quirks will be less obvious as I settle into operating instead of constantly re-configuring.
I was hoping to eliminate the need to run Airfoil Speakers as an Airplay destination on the server. But it seems to be an added bit of complexity that is needed in order to keep the server (connected to my main playback system) in sync with all the other Airplay destinations.
I wonder if there’s a way to have my multi-channel/high-resolution music play in its full “bit-perfect” surround/high-resolution-ness on the server with that signal being sent to my receiver, while simultaneously having the same music sent to the Airplay destinations.
Regardless, some good steps made. Right now, all video files are played back in my “Local” zone. All audio files are played back in my “TuneBlade” zone, which sends to all my Airplay devices, including Airfoil Speakers on the server in order to keep everything in sync. MC’s “TuneBlade” zone is set to resample all audio to 44.1 and 2channel, so all of my oddball multi-channel and high-resoluton files play back well. NOTE: it was important to have the TuneBlade zone set to NO BITSTREAMING, or several of my filetypes would not play (AC3, DTS, and so forth). Does the bitstreaming setting bypass MC’s DSP studio?
A buffer of 250ms seems to work great in TuneBlade, and I haven’t found the need to adjust the silence for hardware sync setting. I don’t have any AirPort Expresses that are that old :-)
However, software Airplay destinations (Airfoil Speakers on Windows & Mac) frequently do not pick up the stream from TuneBlade, despite TuneBlade showing they are connected. A toggle of the connection status normally revives the connection. Increasing the TuneBlade buffer doesn’t seem to help resolve this problem. Adjusting the silence for hardware sync setting doesn’t seem to help either. I don’t notice the issue on my hardware destinations. Anyone else seeing this on their software destinations?
I’d love to figure out a way to have the TuneBlade control not minimize to the system tray—especially when doing so much monkeying around with configurations!
Definitely $10 well-spent!
brad
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Thanks so much for the pointers! I did have this all working at one point yesterday, but in my quest for simplification, lost it. Now it's back!
The only portion of your tips I was unable to figure out was how to force the sampling to 44.1/16. I saw in DSP studio that you can force the sample rate, but I couldn’t find the bit depth setting….
Great!
Bit-depth is set in the device properties. (Tools → Options → Audio → Audio Device → Device Settings)
(http://abload.de/img/device-propertiesbzuz6.png)
(don't use 10ms here, it just happened to be that when I took a screenshot)
And in case it stumps anyone else, sample rate and number of channels are set in the DSP Studio. (Tools → Options → Audio → Settings → DSP Studio)
(http://abload.de/img/output-formatn4us5.png)
Just right-click the sample rate box and set all to 44,100 Hz.
In all my messing around, I did come up with some instabilities--Airfoil Speakers doesn't like it when you change the default Windows audio device, and neither does TuneBlade. Speakers would often crash and TuneBlade would hang at various points as I attempted to force the audio to travel the path I sought. Hopefully these little quirks will be less obvious as I settle into operating instead of constantly re-configuring.
Are you up to date with Airfoil Speakers? It has been stable here.
TuneBlade too, for that matter.
And you say that you're changing the default audio device. Do you mean when TuneBlade sets the default device, as specified in this step (http://abload.de/img/tuneblade-loopback65uxd.png), or that you are changing it after that?
For what it's worth, I have not had that issue at all, and I often switch between three local devices on my PC. (unrelated to AirPlay)
I could see Direct Loopback perhaps not handling those changes well, but I'm not sure why that would affect Airfoil Speakers.
Perhaps if something has Exclusive Access to the device that Airfoil Speakers is trying to play to, it handles that badly.
I was hoping to eliminate the need to run Airfoil Speakers as an Airplay destination on the server. But it seems to be an added bit of complexity that is needed in order to keep the server (connected to my main playback system) in sync with all the other Airplay destinations.
Airfoil Speakers will be required to keep everything in perfect sync, since it will adjust itself to stay in sync as it drifts over time. (and sync will drift over time)
I wonder if there’s a way to have my multi-channel/high-resolution music play in its full “bit-perfect” surround/high-resolution-ness on the server with that signal being sent to my receiver, while simultaneously having the same music sent to the Airplay destinations.
Not if you want it in sync, nor if you want the highest quality possible sent to the AirPlay receivers.
If absolutely perfect sync is not required, you could try using Linked Zones in Media Center to do this while staying mostly in sync.
I just set up a test where I linked my AirPlay Zone (16/44) to my Headphones Zone (max 24/192) and after adding an 860ms delay by having the headphones on one ear and speakers in the room playing via airplay then spending a minute to find the right value, both of them were playing in more-or-less perfect sync, while the headphone zone was playing a 24/96 track and AirPlay received a 16/44 version of the same track.
The issue that I ran into was when the sample rate changed. My DAC takes a fraction of a second to switch over to the new rate, and this was enough to throw things out of sync again.
Pausing and resuming, since that did not have to change the DAC's sample rate again, brought them back into sync.
What might be an acceptable solution would be to resample everything to the highest rate that your DAC supports. That way you're still getting high res audio, but (hopefully) avoid breaking sync when the sample rate changes.
I do expect that it will likely drift over time though, so it may or may not be a suitable solution.
NOTE: it was important to have the TuneBlade zone set to NO BITSTREAMING, or several of my filetypes would not play (AC3, DTS, and so forth). Does the bitstreaming setting bypass MC’s DSP studio?
Yes, that's exactly what bitstreaming does.
However, software Airplay destinations (Airfoil Speakers on Windows & Mac) frequently do not pick up the stream from TuneBlade, despite TuneBlade showing they are connected. A toggle of the connection status normally revives the connection. Increasing the TuneBlade buffer doesn’t seem to help resolve this problem. Adjusting the silence for hardware sync setting doesn’t seem to help either. I don’t notice the issue on my hardware destinations. Anyone else seeing this on their software destinations?
It may be the 250ms buffer causing this. Perhaps it's too short for them?
I did see similar behavior from Airfoil Speakers initially as well, but it hasn't been a problem for me the last couple of days.
Edit: After doing more testing, the connection to Airfoil Speakers does seem quite unreliable. I've mostly been playing to Apple hardware so it had not tested it much.
What I'd found is that hitting stop on the Airfoil Speakers app to kill the connection means that it works again 100% of the time, the next time I connect to it.
I've contacted Rogue Amoeba support about this, so I'll see where it goes.
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Are you up to date with Airfoil Speakers? It has been stable here.
TuneBlade too, for that matter.
And you say that you're changing the default audio device. Do you mean when TuneBlade sets the default device, as specified in this step (http://abload.de/img/tuneblade-loopback65uxd.png), or that you are changing it after that?
For what it's worth, I have not had that issue at all, and I often switch between three local devices on my PC. (unrelated to AirPlay)
I could see Direct Loopback perhaps not handling those changes well, but I'm not sure why that would affect Airfoil Speakers.
The instability was manifesting when I was focusing on "Direct Loopback" as TuneBlade's audio capture method, so I was using the Windows sound control panel to change my default device quite a bit. I'm not surprised that messing around at the bottom of the audio stack would cause issues, but it was driving me nuts yesterday! :)
Perhaps if something has Exclusive Access to the device that Airfoil Speakers is trying to play to, it handles that badly.
Airfoil Speakers will be required to keep everything in perfect sync, since it will adjust itself to stay in sync as it drifts over time. (and sync will drift over time)
Not if you want it in sync, nor if you want the highest quality possible sent to the AirPlay receivers.
I think you've nailed it here. While testing my zone switching setup today, Airfoil Speakers also kept crashing. I finally realized it was unhappy when it was connected (via TuneBlade) AND when I used MC to send audio to the local PC output--the same output that Airfoil Speakers sends to. Since MC is set up for exclusive access the the audio device, I'm guessing that AFS doesn't like being kicked off :) I'll be opening a ticket with Rogue Amoeba to see if there's anything they can do--even if it's to fail more gracefully.
Regardless, if TuneBlade has disconnected (either manually or through its standby timeout), then everything works fine. I'll play around with shortening the timeout delay, and maybe I'll get into alternate dithering methods as you suggested earlier.
If absolutely perfect sync is not required, you could try using Linked Zones in Media Center to do this while staying mostly in sync.
Yep. I remembered that feature today too and in my tests found much the same (780ms delay). It looks like a bug in MC that the delay did not stay applied when stopping/re-starting playback. Did you see evidence of that behavior? MC retained the setting, but didn't seem to apply it properly.
For now, I'll stick with using Airfoil speakers on the server to keep the local audio in sync with the remote audio. It seems the least brittle of the various solutions at this point. I'll have to track to see if I get any improvement in standby/re-connection behavior.
Thanks!
brad
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I'll post a more detailed response later but I've solved all the Airfoil, MC & TuneBlade conflicts so they never crash. I can switch between spotify, MC on the server remotely. There's not much to it really.
Use a dedicated output device on the server for TuneBlade that isn't used by anything else. Install a virtual one if you don't have one spare.
Set TuneBlade to that specific device instead of using loop back.
Set the device windows control panel audio settings to 16/44 on the server and as the default playback device.
Set airfoil speakers on the server to your default sound card (the same as TuneBlade)
Make sure exclusive mode is turned off everywhere on the server relating to the TuneBlade Audio device that your using.
On the receivers, set Airfoil Speakers to use default device. Set Windows control panel Audio device that you prefer to use as your default device. Turn off exclusive mode in MC if your also using that output device for MC.
It sounds like a lot of fiddling but it's only a couple changes. When I'm not on my phone I'll try simplify this with some pics.
I can now start spotify on the server, send that via TuneBlade automatically, switch to MC and start playback, the worst that will happen is sound overlapping from both. Which is easier to fix than going to your of to restart things.
I'm using the spotify beta which now allows remote control of spotify on the server from any other PC from the new Beta. Phones can also remotely control spotify, so with spotify, JRemote and TuneBlade remote I can do everything I need to do from the phone without having to go near a PC or touch my MC server.
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Well that is essentially the same as this (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90712.msg659411#msg659411), only you're disabling Exclusive Access.
And if you're having conflicts/crashes, that may be the solution.
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Actually it's similar but it's still different. Thanks for helping though! Yes turning off exclusive access is one thing but the device also needs to be set to 16/44 as well as in the MC AirPlay zone so that every thing is sent in the same format.