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[new2hifi]

Want AirPlay or Bluetooth Audio! I am really amazed that JRiver do not receive audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth.

[JimH]

Bluetooth works with MC19.

[6233638]

+1 for AirPlay integration, but it's never going to happen.

[Acrobat1977]

XBMC managed to, why can't/doesn't JRiver?

[JimH]

We've focused on DLNA.  Apple chose a different direction, and their environment isn't friendly to developers.

[6233638]

I would put money on there being more AirPlay devices in use than DLNA devices.
AirPlay has a defined featureset which all devices support. With DLNA, feature support is up to the manufacturer, and there are a lot of bad implementations.
AirPlay supports perfect sync between any number of devices; I've yet to see anything synchronize even two devices properly over DLNA. Does Media Center even support this, if the receivers do?
 
Most people seem to buy AirPlay or Bluetooth devices these days, in preference to DLNA.
This is because mobile devices can play directly to AirPlay/Bluetooth receivers. DLNA requires a server or specialized apps.
This does not directly affect Media Center, because it would be playing to the DLNA device, but it affects how many people choose to buy DLNA devices in the first place.
 
In recent months, the lack of AirPlay support is one of the main reasons people have come back to me saying that they can't replace iTunes with Media Center on their systems.
It has to work with their existing hardware before they would consider buying the program and potentially adding DLNA devices like the id in new zones.
 
 
I don't see why it should have to be one or the other.

[JimH]

I would put money on there being more AirPlay devices in use than DLNA devices.

You'd lose that bet.  Almost every new TV and Blu-ray player supports DLNA.  Many Android phones, media streamers, receivers, PS3, and so on.  It's the standard.

[6233638]

You'd lose that bet.  Almost every new TV and Blu-ray player supports DLNA.  Many Android phones, media streamers, receivers, PS3, and so on.  It's the standard.

That's why I put emphasis on in use.
All the televisions in my house, and a handful of other devices have DLNA receivers built in.
None of the DLNA features are ever used, because the implementation and format support is terrible.
 
All of the AirPlay devices are used on a regular basis because it just works, and anyone can play to them directly from their phone/tablet.
I have bought a couple of DLNA devices in the last few months, which were all returned, because it just doesn't work well.

[fitbrit]

I would +1 on AirPlay. I am not even buying any more DLNA renderers unless they also support AirPlay. I love my Onkyo receivers as DLNA renderers, but AirPlay is a lot less hassle, especially for syncing. A workaround is to use JRemote on an iOS device, select "Play on this Device", and then forward the output from the iOS device to the AirPlay renderer.

[sunfire7]

I prefer Airplay as well, I use it all the time because it works perfect, and it's more used than DLNA, at least by the people I know.  But I'm not worried if is not implemented by JRiver as my AVR already does.

[DarkPenguin]

+1 for Airplay.

[Daveyravey]

+1 for Airplay

[AndyU]

+ 1 for Airplay

[AustinBike]

Yes, airplay has allowed me to make a sonos-like environment for a fraction of the cost. EXTREMELY wife-friendly. She thinks I am a genius for having this set up this way.  Any tablet or phone can play and pitch the music to any location in the house.  Would love to be able to do this with MC as well.  Can do it with JRemote but not the main client.

[zen101]

+1 for airplay - Would love to able to stream from MC to my B&W A7 via airplay.

[Sandy B Ridge]

+1 me too.

[Daveyravey]

+1

[bulldog65]

+ 1 AirPlay.   I have 6 DLNA devises, never use them, they are terrible.  Own 2 AirPlay devices, use every week.  Seriously looking for another media player because managing both is ridiculous.  Figure it out and make AirPlay work!   The other features being added are fluff, AirPlay support is a game changer.

[6233638]

Another example of DLNA being a headache, while Airplay just works: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90802.msg624227#msg624227
 
I experienced something similar with the pair of Sony SRS-X7 speakers I bought a few months ago.
While I got DLNA working, a lot of features were broken when playing music from Media Center - I couldn't even seek during playback, and synced audio was impossible.
 
Playback via AirPlay on the device (it supported both) was flawless. The speaker behaved as you would expect, and I had perfect sync between all my AirPlay devices.

[fitbrit]

I tally +13 for AirPlay so far. Do we hear +20?

[sunfire7]

+1 in case you didn't count mine 

[)p(]

+1

I now sometimes use Loopback with shairportw to AirPlay to jrmc and airfoil to play from jrmc. It works but native support would be greatly appreciated.

I remember on some receivers you paid to get AirPlay support to cover the cost of the apple AirPlay license. Maybe that could be an option.

[horse]

+1 for Airplay

Today for AudioI have an AirPlay playlist using a virtual sound card, loopback and shareportw to AirPlay to different Audio zones.
For Video I use another solution.

This allows me to stream all other content from the iPad to anywhere in the house.

Would love to see audio and video Airplay support.

Purchased my MC 20 license anyway in support

[davidw55]

+1 for Airplay

I have lots of DLNA devices .. most of them need to be power cycled regularly.. Not reliable. 

OTOH my Airport Express's never need any attention, they just work.

I use MC because its a great product and when used with DLNA renderers, I can have multiple separate streams to each room of the house ... very nice solution, except for the renderers which are the weak link.

Apple works very reliably but it can't do the multiple stream thing from a single server the way MC can.

Having MC doing Airplay would be, in a word, wonderful.

[BryanC]

-1 for AirPlay.

If you start supporting proprietary protocols, it only empowers those companies to make more proprietary protocols. DLNA was invented for a reason.

[6233638]

-1 for AirPlay.

If you start supporting proprietary protocols, it only empowers those companies to make more proprietary protocols. DLNA was invented for a reason.

I agree with you on principle: I would much rather use free and open protocols than proprietary ones.
 
In practice, I have AirPlay hardware which is now more than 10 years old at this point, that is still working perfectly. (1st generation AirPort Express)
 
I have purchased (and returned) DLNA hardware that was released in 2014 which still lacks support for the basic featureset of that device - and that includes hardware which supported both protocols. (which means that it can do things like synchronized playback - just not via DLNA)
 
AirPlay devices just work, in my experience DLNA does not.

[BryanC]

I agree with you on principle: I would much rather use free and open protocols than proprietary ones.
 
In practice, I have AirPlay hardware which is now more than 10 years old at this point, that is still working perfectly. (1st generation AirPort Express)
 
I have purchased (and returned) DLNA hardware that was released in 2014 which still lacks support for the basic featureset of that device - and that includes hardware which supported both protocols. (which means that it can do things like synchronized playback - just not via DLNA)
 
AirPlay devices just work, in my experience DLNA does not.

They 'just work' for the same reason that most Apple devices 'just work.' It's a closed, tightly-regulated ecosystem. It isn't because of the technology per se.

[6233638]

They 'just work' for the same reason that most Apple devices 'just work.' It's a closed, tightly-regulated ecosystem. It isn't because of the technology per se.

The requirements for DLNA are too lax. Everything in the spec seems to be optional, which means it doesn't get implemented.
Is there any hardware that supports gapless, sync, and seeking via DLNA?
 
AirPlay's basic functionality covers everything that most people want from a wireless audio device.
AirPlay receivers can be played to directly from mobile devices (any audio playing on the device can be routed to an AirPlay receiver) just like Bluetooth speakers.
 
DLNA only works in a client-server fashion, with mobile devices acting as a remote, rather than being able to play audio directly to the device.
 
It doesn't matter if the DLNA spec is theoretically capable of these things, ten years later, there still doesn't seem to be anything which replicates the original AirPort Express' functionality.

[ShirazD]

here's another +1 for Airplay. I've tried DLNA too and it's simply not nearly as good, especially with respect to sync'ing, for which Airplay is simply amazing -- who doesn't want to be able to play music in the living room and then walk into their bedroom and have the same music playing, in sync? Sync is great for when you're playing music and cleaning the house, ie. walking all around.

I'm a strong proponent of open standards, and I specifically despise Apple for this very reason. Clearly Jim has a point that it's harder to develop for Airplay. But I keep thinking of Airfoil -- those peeps reverse engineered the whole protocol, to the point of near perfection by this point. This is why I'm suggesting a collab/integration of Airfoil -- no hands tied by Apple, developer freedom, and no need to reinvent the wheel.  It's just the pragmatic reality that DLNA doesn't cut it.

[6233638]

But I keep thinking of Airfoil -- those peeps reverse engineered the whole protocol, to the point of near perfection by this point. This is why I'm suggesting a collab/integration of Airfoil -- no hands tied by Apple, developer freedom, and no need to reinvent the wheel.  It's just the pragmatic reality that DLNA doesn't cut it.

The AirTunes protocol (now AirPlay) was reverse-engineered and open-sourced very shortly after the first AirPort Express was released.
 
While they could try and work with RogueAmoeba, the information is out there for JRiver to develop a solution themselves.

[cncb]

AirPlay receivers can be played to directly from mobile devices (any audio playing on the device can be routed to an AirPlay receiver) just like Bluetooth speakers.

If a mobile device is required to play from (always on and draining battery) and if it needs to be an Apple device, that is very limiting and I don't understand all the interest.  Is this the case?

[6233638]

If a mobile device is required to play from (always on and draining battery) and if it needs to be an Apple device, that is very limiting and I don't understand all the interest.  Is this the case?

No, it is not required.
I was pointing out another feature that AirPlay has which DLNA lacks. (i.e. reasons why people buy and use AirPlay hardware instead of DLNA)

[gworrel]

What devices are people using as Airplay renderers? I know there is the Airport Express and Apple TV. What about something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Receiver-Supports-Portable-WF-RADU/dp/B00L26YDA4/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

I originally bought JRiver because of its multizone support, but the poor syncing left me looking at other options. I currently use the Onkyo Net Zone 2 to play Pandora and Internet Radio. I cannot get it to work with playlists from JRiver so not so thrilled with it for music playback. I have separate inexpensive stereo receivers for each zone but have not yet worked out the best solution for routing music to each zone with good remote control.

[6233638]

Should we take the AirPlay/Bluetooth request topic being relegated to the iPod forum as a sign that you are not going to reconsider your position on DLNA vs AirPlay?
 
Because that is making me reconsider using Media Center as the basis for networked home audio long-term.
 
Playing to AirPlay devices using Media Center works via RogueAmoeba's Airfoil program (i.e. music plays) but you lose a lot of functionality, such as being able to send audio to separate zones.
 
DLNA hardware created and sold in 2014 is lacking the basic featureset of the 2004 AirPort Express device, and is not yet in a state that is suitable for whole-home audio.
 
I know that you're trying to sell the id for this purpose, but that is a $400 device compared to $99($75 refurbished) for the latest model, or less than $50 for an older model on eBay. (which is actually better for CD playback)

[6233638]

I mostly use original AirPort Express devices since they do bit-perfect 16/44.1 (CD audio) and have both analog out and a digital optical output to go into an external DAC.
There's also an ethernet port which is useful if you want to use a wired connection rather than wireless, or use the AE as a WiFi extender.
And there is a USB port which can be used to convert a wired printer to wireless, or charge devices.
 
It's a very convenient device in a small package, and the original models seem to be available used for $50 or less now.

[fitbrit]

I would say that the AirPlay topic is a legitimate request for a feature in the core MC program, rather than one for just handhelds.
Given the choice, I would use DLNA to play to a single zone like my Onkyo network receivers, but for playing to more than one zone simultaneously, or to cheaper rendering devices, AirPlay is rather impressive.

[JimH]

Please use the Airplay thread that was already started.  

I've changed the name of the board to include Airplay.

We spent well over $100,000 once supporting Apple ipods and iphones.  They blocked our support overnight.  We won't make such a mistake again.

[gregb]

I just switched to jriver last week, I'm very happy and impressed.  I can't believe how fast it is!

I also +1 airplay.  I dislike Apple's proprietary ways as well, however I the airplay experience just works.  Wife happy as another person on this thread said.  I could 100% stop using iTunes on my computer and iphones, but I can't control a few of the speakers in my house without airplay on jriver. 

Airfoil physically works, but I want to be able to control each zone independently using jremote.  So its not a solution.

Greg

[JimH]

DLNA hardware created and sold in 2014 is lacking the basic featureset of the 2004 AirPort Express device, and is not yet in a state that is suitable for whole-home audio.

You may have had bad luck with DLNA, but that's not a DLNA problem.  It's an implementation problem by some manufacturers.

I know that you're trying to sell the id for this purpose, but that is a $400 device compared to $99($75 refurbished) for the latest model, or less than $50 for an older model on eBay. (which is actually better for CD playback)

We're doing more than "trying" to sell the Id.  It's selling pretty well.

It's currently $295, not $400, and isn't directly comparable to Airplay devices.

[6233638]

We spent well over $100,000 once supporting Apple ipods and iphones.  They blocked our support overnight.  We won't make such a mistake again.

I wouldn't consider creating an entirely new type of device that runs on a different operating system "blocking your support", or are you referring to something else?
I was under the impression that Media Center still worked with classic iPods.
 
The AirTunes protocol was reverse-engineered almost 10 years ago now, and they have made no effort to block implementations in other software such as Airfoil, or competing media players like XBMC.
The only way they could change this would be to discontinue existing AirPlay hardware.
 

You may have had bad luck with DLNA, but that's not a DLNA problem.  It's an implementation problem by some manufacturers.

Please recommend some DLNA hardware which matches the AirPort Express:
 

• Dynamic linking/unlinking of zones without interrupting playback.
• Synchronized playback across multiple devices.
• Lossless 16/44.1 streaming. (or better)
• System-wide direct audio playback from guest devices on the network with zero configuration.
• High quality analog and digital outputs which allow it to connect to any existing DAC/AVR/Amplifier
• Full playback control via the server/receiver. (stop, skip, and seek control)
• Control via IR remotes
• Can connect via dual-band (2.4 or 5 GHz) WiFi or Ethernet, optionally extending WiFi network.
• USB port which can charge devices. (or convert a wired printer to wireless - but that is not relevant to audio)
• Internal power supply - no power brick/wall-wart required
• Small unobtrusive design
• Actually works. Never crashes, drops connection, needs restarting etc. (10+ years of service from my original AirPort Express)
• Costs $99 or less

Another issue is that there simply aren't a lot of high-end DLNA speakers, but there are a lot of nice AirPlay ones.

[fitbrit]

I would also say that even if Apple were to block all 3rd party AirPlay support tomorrow and release a new standard that all their new hardware would support, the existing AirPlay technology would still be worth supporting. In fact the AirPlay speakers and client devices would probably drop in price and be steals.
On the other hand, if JRiver were to develop their implementation of DLNA so that it could do all the stuff AirPlay can reliably, that might work too. However, it would be very nice to be able to use ~$100 AppleTVs as zones via AirPlay.

[JimH]

Let me know if you want to risk your $100,000.

[6233638]

So no examples of good DLNA hardware then?
Even ignoring the price-point, is there even any DLNA hardware on the market which can do half of what the 2004 AirPort Express does?
 
And I think fitbrit makes a good point about AirPlay - even if it were discontinued tomorrow, which seems extremely unlikely, it would still be worthwhile to support it considering the number of devices on the market.
I know several people who I've been trying to wean off iTunes, and this is the last sticking point for them. $50 for a Media Center license is already more expensive than they would like.
$50 for the MC license plus $400 to replace perfectly functional AirPlay hardware in each room is unreasonable.
 
Unless Apple suddenly starts selling high res hardware that requires "AirPlay 2" and discontinues the original devices, I'm not sure what would obsolete it.
But why would they replace the old protocol and stop millions of devices working overnight rather than expand it to support high resolution instead?
Considering that they only recently added support for AirPlay as an audio device in OSX (rather than playing through iTunes) it would indicate that they plan to continue using it.
 
I'm not sure that your investment would need to be as much as developing iPod support from scratch when there is already 9+ years worth of open-source software written to use the protocol.
 

Let me know if you want to risk your $100,000.

Since you did not answer my previous questions at all, I'm still unclear on whether iPod support still works for classic models or not. I'm assuming that it does.
Looking back, it seems that iPod support was added in 2003. The first iPhones and iPod Touches were introduced in 2007 so that is at least four years of support.
I don't remember the iPhone/iPod touch really becoming mainstream devices until after the first couple of revisions (~iPhone 3GS) in 2009 or so.
And it's not like people aren't still using older iPod devices. While you may not support iOS hardware, Apple still sells the iPod Classic.
Was 6+ years of iPod support worth that investment? You would know better than I do, but it seems reasonable to me.

[fitbrit]

I know when to give up.

[)p(]

I'm looking for solutions, not an argument.
 
What is the known-good DLNA hardware that supports these features with Media Center?
Everything I have bought so far has been "bad luck". (your words)

The only Dlna devices that work as well as AirPlay that I know of use some sort of extension to Dlna. I am thinking of the linn devices, they are very stable. That's why I think the id is a good idea for jriver.

Considering jrivers stance on this and in Apple in general I must say I am surprised they are even investing in a Mac version...

[JimH]

I know when to give up.

Very funny!

[6233638]

Considering JRiver stance on this and in Apple in general I must say I am surprised they are even investing in a Mac version...

The difference is that writing software for OSX is officially supported by Apple. (though maybe not for much longer, if you aren't on the App Store)
 
Sending audio to AirPlay devices is not officially supported on Windows from anything other than iTunes - it has all been reverse-engineered.

[new2hifi]

Bluetooth works with MC19.

Jim: You mean that MC19 can receive audio via Bluetooth, i.e. I can send music to MC19 using MC 19 as Bluetooth speakers in my Apple or Android devices?

Please post the link for such setup.

Thanks

[6233638]

Jim: You mean that MC19 can receive audio via Bluetooth, i.e. I can send music to MC19 using MC 19 as Bluetooth speakers in my Apple or Android devices?
Please post the link for such setup.

You didn't make this clear in your original post - I think everyone expected that you wanted MC to send audio to Bluetooth devices, not receive it.

[new2hifi]

You didn't make this clear in your original post - I think everyone expected that you wanted MC to send audio to Bluetooth devices, not receive it.

I did! See this.

Want AirPlay or Bluetooth Audio! I am really amazed that JRiver do not receive audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth.

My JRiver 18 is running on a dedicated computer attached to a USB DAC. I want to send audio stream via AirPlay or Bluetooth to JRiver 18 so it can be played via my USB DAC.

So is there any guide to accomplish this?