INTERACT FORUM
Windows => Television => Topic started by: glynor on October 23, 2014, 09:39:39 pm
-
As you may have read before, Jim asked me a bit over a month ago (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92061.0) to help out managing the Television feature for JRiver.
We decided that the most important focus, at first, was on Setup and Configuration. I've intentionally left aside anything like adding new features, or changing the way the Television feature itself works in fundamental or small ways. If you can't get it set up, you can't even evaluate the other features. And I think the best thing for us to get lots more input on the rest, is to make the audience of people who can use this bigger.
So here's what I'm currently suggesting as a new setup process for the Television feature of Media Center. It introduces a new concept called Device Profiles, and reorganizes the Tools > Options > Television somewhat. But the main show is a new Television Setup process that walks you through setting it up from start to finish.
Hopefully you like it, and I hope we can do more in the future. Comments and suggestions are welcome.
-
When the Television feature has not been enabled at all, the Link Text overtop of the Guide Area will be to this Television Setup wizard. This will also be accessible later under Tools > Options > Television (see below).
Step 1: Location and Global Options
Tell us about how you will use the Television feature
1.1 Location:
* Country (combobox)
* Zip Code (textbox)
1.2 Global Recording Options
* Recording Location (combobox with Browse button) - Same setting as is in Options > Television currently
* Recording Format (radio buttons) - Same setting as is in Options > Television currently
Notes:
* Auto-fill Country from OS.
* Zip code grayed out if Country is not US (unless the Zip/Postal is also useful for Canada).
* Zip code auto-filled if a Zip code has been entered into Theater View's Weather widget.
* If Theater View's Weather widget has not ever been configured, this location should be added when the wizard completes.
* If no compatible Hardware Tuners at all are detected, then an error message is displayed that explains that they need a tuner to record TV. Perhaps with a link to the Wiki listing some decent options.
* Zip Code can be left blank (even for North America). It will pop up a warning (only if the Country setting could use it anyway) that Automatic EPG will not be available.
* Pre-fill the recording location box smartly, as is discussed below (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92807.msg640891#msg640891). Perhaps use a combobox and have alternative pre-set locations (on other drives) in the drop-down list.
Recording Format Notes:
* I think the choices should be JTV or Native.
* Explain the differences between these options (that's why I changed it to Radio Buttons, so that you can have descriptive text and a link to the Wiki next to each option)
* Is this even needed (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92807.msg640891#msg640891)? Can we make this setting go away forever?
-
Step 2: Service Type
Tell us about your Television service. If you have multiple types, choose one and others can be added later.
2.1 Service Type: (radio buttons)
* Antenna (Over the Air)
* Digital Cable or Satellite
* Analog Cable
* Capture Only (No Channel Guide)
2.2 Select Guide Data Source:
Like this, but just the radio buttons, provider, and help links.
(http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Scan_Channels_Wizard-Download_EPG.png)
* Also, add fourth option: No Electronic Program Guide, which is selected (and other options disabled) if Capture Only is enabled.
Notes:
* Does not list country or zip code, as that was already collected.
* Disables or hides options not relevant based on previous choices (particularly, doesn't allow choosing Automatic if you're somewhere that doesn't work).
* Guide data will automatically be loaded every 24 hours (late at night), rather than asking the user. You will be able to alter these settings if needed via a Change Program Guide Schedule dialog (http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Television-Old-Program_Guide_Schedule.png) in Tools > Options > Television
* The Guide Data Source section is disabled if Service Type is set to Capture Only.
-
Step 3: Select Capture Hardware
Choose which recording device to use for this Device Profile.
3.1 Tuner Type:
* This section varies depending on the Service Type chosen in Step 2.
3.1.1 Antenna:
Tuner Type (radio buttons):
* Digital (ATSC, DVB-T)
* Analog (NTSC, etc)
3.1.2 Digital Cable or Satellite
Tuner Type (radio buttons):
* Clear QAM (digital, unencrypted cable)
* DVB-S (digital satellite)
* DVB-C (digital cable)
* Set Top Box
* Cable Card
3.1.3 Analog Cable
No tuner type selection required. This section is pre-filled.
3.1.4 Capture Only
Treat like a STB that doesn't have any channels (other than the "input" ones). My idea for this, by the way, is to allow people to easily set up "non-TV" input devices, like Game Consoles. Recording Games is A Very Big Deal for a certain set of users. MC can already basically do this, but no one knows about it. I think exposing it better and making it easy to set up could lead to new sales.
You could also use it to do things like shunt external set-top devices (like an AppleTV or Roku box) "through" MC if you have an appropriate tuner device.
Notes:
* Tuner Types are filtered by Country on Step 1. For example: Set Top Box is always shown for Digital Cable/Satellite (because that could be applicable in multiple countries), but QAM is only shown for North America (and any other countries offering QAM). And so on and so forth.
3.2 Device Profile Name: (textbox)
* Give this Device Profile a friendly name.
* Pre-filled with the name of the selected tuner type (ATSC, DVB-T, etc) but you can change it to something nicer.
3.3 Assign Devices: (grid view with checkboxes)
* List each detected tuner capable of receiving the Service Type selected in Step 2. Hide or disable those that can't possibly be relevant.
* If the user selects a Tuner Type (3.1) that precludes a particular hardware device, it should be grayed out (but still visible)
* Allow the user to select multiple devices
* Devices sometimes will be capable of using multiple Tuner Types, so you can't pre-filter this list against already assigned devices.
* Next in the wizard is disabled until you select at least one hardware device to assign to this Tuner Type.
Notes:
* Any Tuner Types (in 3.1) that are not possible with the currently detected hardware devices are grayed out and disabled.
* Assign Devices (3.3) lists the detected tuners which are capable of recording the Service Type selected in Step 1.
* Compatible devices with the selected Tuner Type are pre-selected in Assign Devices (3.3).
* If no tuners are available that can handle both the selected Service Type and Tuner Type (you filter it to nothing), then an error message is displayed and the user is directed to select another Tuner Type.
-
Step 4a: Configure Hardware Specific Options
Set up your recording device.
4.1 Device Name: (label showing the hardware device currently being configured)
The rest of this page is very specific to the device and the previously selected options. I'll cover a few types:
STB Devices and Capture Only:
4.2 Select Input:
* Component + Optical Audio
* Component + Analog Audio
* S-Video
* Composite
* HDMI
(for example)
4.3 Select IR Blaster:
* Just like the existing section
* Disabled or invisible if Service Type is Capture Only.
DVB-C, DVB-S, and QAM:
The following comboboxes from this dialog (http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Scan_Channels_Wizard-Digital-Type_Selection.png):
* Frequency
* Band Type
* DisEqC Type
4.4-4.5 Audio and Advanced
The Section from Configure Device here can be added to this page as well, but should be disabled, hidden, or skipped entirely if not required for this particular hardware device:
(http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Optuons-Television-Devices-Configure-Partial.png)
Notes:
* If the selected device and Service Type requires a Channel Scan to detect inputs, this is done before the page loads. If this process might take a while, then a "circular spinner animation" is shown with text "Please wait while your device is initialized."
* If the user selected multiple hardware devices on the previous page, then Step 4a-b loop until all selected devices have been configured.
* The Select Input section (for STB-style devices) will pre-select the best quality input (Component + Optical Audio for HD-PVR, for example)
* If possible, pre-select Frequency, Band Type, and DisEqC type from a lookup table. We will need to collect information from forum users to build this table. And/or collect details from users directly through the application as they make choices, and associate that with countries selected (so the pre-selection can be smarter in v21).
* Going into Video Crossbar should not be required for all but the most fiddly of setups, and devices we haven't ever seen before. For anything common, this page should have custom settings for that device (as described above with the HD-PVR STB setup).
-
Step 4b: IR Blaster Configuration
I think this is largely done. Insert it into this new wizard when required (for STB Tuner Types).
-
Step 5: Review and Add Additional Tuner Types
Add additional Tuner Types or Scan for Channels.
5.1 Tuner Types/Profiles Overview: (grid-view)
* Lists currently configured Device Profiles
* These columns suggested:
** Device Profile Name
** Tuner Type: ATSC, DVB-C, QAM, STB, etc
** Hardware Device Name: if multiple you can just say "multiple devices selected" (perhaps)
5.2 Add another Tuner Profile (button)
* If clicked, it takes you back to Step 2, and lets you add another Tuner Profile to this overview list.
* Continue going through this until you've added any Tuner Types needed to the 5.1 overview list.
* You could add a re-configure button too, enabled if one of the existing Tuner Types in the list is selected.
Below that section it has brief explanatory text:
Next we will scan for channels (if necessary) and match them to your downloaded Guide lineup.
Notes:
* The Finish button is called Scan instead of Finish.
* Once the user clicks Scan/Finish, load the (new) Channel Setup dialog. This next dialog is where the actual channel scan occurs, and allows you to match channels to the guide data, and also to Group Channels.
-
Step 6: Channel Setup Dialog
Once you click scan, it exits the "wizard", and takes you to a new-and-improved version of this dialog:
(http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/MC20-Television-Old-Edit_Channel_List.png)
Channel Scanning:
* Channel grid-view fills as channel scan is completed.
* The scanner goes through each configured Tuner Type. Assuming it cannot be done concurrently, set the sequence of these so that the fastest ones (like STB and Cable Card) complete first. This gives the user quicker feedback that something is happening.
* There should be a Rescan for New Channels button, that uses the currently configured Device Profiles list, and just rescans for new channels.
* While channel scanning is in-progress, you can enable the Deep Channel Scanning Mode, if you see that it missed channels that you know it should have found. This restarts the scan using the more thorough mode.
* It would be nice to have a scanning Progress bar too. I'm thinking that when Scanning is in-progress, you get a small pop-over with a progress bar, the Deep Scan checkbox, and a cancel button. You can monitor the channels filling in the Channels List grid-view "behind" this modal dialog.
Channels List:
* Generally, I'd like to get rid of the "button section" below the channel list. That blocks up the room available to the list of channels (which could be large, so more space is better). If possible, the Channels Grid-View should be the whole height of the dialog.
* If any buttons are left underneath the Channels List Grid-View, it should be the new Rescan for Channels button described above. This button, however, could also go on top of the Channels List Grid-View, or maybe on the top of the Right-Hand side.
* Favorite/Unfavorite and Hide/Unhide should be Checkbox Columns in the channels grid-view, not discreet buttons.
* Discreet Move Up/Down buttons are fine, but drag-drop should work too. Consider moving these to the right-or-left of the channels grid view (probably right).
* The Edit button, for mine at least, doesn't seem to do anything not shown in the Right-Hand pane of the dialog. If there are "advanced edit" things for a channel, it should only list the stuff that can't be done in-line, and the button should be over on the right-hand side.
* What does Save Channel Order do? Doesn't Done do this too? If you really want to have separate Apply and Done buttons, then do an OK, Apply, Cancel "standard bottom-right" button panel instead.
* Add and Delete can be with the Move Up/Down buttons, but again, consider moving to the right of the grid-view.
Grouping:
* This dialog should be combined with the Group Channels dialog.
* This seems like it should be easy since we can get rid of buttons. Select two or more channels in the list, and click a group channels button (with Add, Delete, Up, Down). This collapses the channels into a "stack" in the Grid-View (just like stacked files in a file listing in MC).
* If you select a channel already part of a group, this button becomes "Ungroup" and the channel returns to normal sort order in the grid-view.
Capture Only Tuner Types:
* Capture Only tuner types should be added as a Channel to this list, using the friendly Tuner Profile name defined during setup. That way, you can pick your XBOX as one of the "channels" easily when using MC.
Input Channels:
* Any "Inputs" (quasi-fake-channels) that are scanned and detected as part of Step 4 of the Device Setup above, are in the list, but automatically Hidden (whenever possible).
General:
* Next/Previous Uses Favorite Channels Only should not be in that dialog, and only in Tools > Options > Television.
* Attributes is nice, but can be hidden under a button (especially since it is almost all duplicates of the things shown above). That gives you much more room to move things on the right-hand side, since the Channel List grid-view will be taller and wider.
-
Afterwards: The Options Panel
Tools > Options > Television will also need to be re-worked to work well with this. This can be done in a separate step of development, but will need to be done. These are some initial thoughts on that process.
It shouldn't be too crazy, though, because we can re-use most of the stuff above. Here is the current dialog:
(http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Options-Television-Old.png)
Tuner Types:
* The current Devices list, should be converted into a Tuner Types list, matching the one described in Step 5 above.
* Selecting one of the Tuner Types and clicking Configure will launch the wizard at Step 2 to reconfigure that particular Tuner Type.
* Add a Delete/Remove button to remove an existing Tuner Type configuration profile.
* If configuration isn't done at all, so Tuner Types is empty, there should be a big link inside the Grid-View to the overall Setup wizard (like how you do that now when going to Drives & Devices > Television in the Tree).
* You can select a Tuner Type and right-click to get a few other "Advanced" options including Setup IR Emitter for STB Channels (when applicable), Configure, and Edit Device Priority. You only need Configure to be a big-obvious button though.
* Eventually, it would be nice to have a separate "Advanced Configuration" dialog that allows setting all of the information collected in the Wizard on one screen, to allow you to tweak things quickly, but this isn't required now.
General:
* Remove Scan for Channels, Load Program Guide, Favorite Channels, Hidden Channels, Group Channels, and Setup IR Emitter
* Add in Re-Run Setup Wizard link-button. This starts the whole Wizard over even when it has already been done. It offers to clear out and reset the existing configuration (including the scanned channels and everything) before opening the Wizard.
* Add in Recording Directory (this should be in General because it applies to recording and time shifting, and is important so we want it near the top). This could also be moved to Tools > Options > File Locations instead, but there should be a link to it here or note like there is for Bitstreaming in Audio/Video.
* Add in Edit Channels link button. This opens the new Edit Channels dialog box described above.
* Add in Edit Device Priority link-button. This opens a small new dialog that is basically just the existing Devices part of the Options panel, but without the Configure button. Configure isn't needed because it will all be done in Step 4 of the Wizard.
* Add in Change Program Guide Schedule link-button. This takes you to a much simpler version of this dialog (http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Television-Old-Program_Guide_Schedule.png) that allows you to modify the schedule with which MC will automatically update the guide data.
Channels:
* Add in Edit Channels link-button. Takes you to the Channel Setup Dialog described above.
* Add in the Next/Previous use Favorite Channels Only option.
Display: Unchanged
Time-Shifting: Unchanged
Recording: Basically unchanged except Directory is removed (it is moved to General or Options > File Locations).
Advanced: Basically unchanged except Edit Channels is removed (it is moved to General).
-
None of this is done, and it is a big project. Yaobing graciously re-did the IR Blaster Configuration that was making me crazy in my testing. But, the rest is yet to be started. We want comments before things start to be changed. There might be some pieces of the configuration system that get broken, as this is built, for a while.
This is why I tried very hard not to suggest many (if any) changes to the underlying system with which MC already handles TV, or to add many new features. It was about reorganizing what is already there into some kind of system that walks you through it, without locking it into too rigid of a structure.
That's not to say there aren't things I do want added. There are, certainly! (Yaobing, I'm not done with you if Jim lets me when we're done with this.) But, for now, we have to begin where we begin.
And you begin by setting it up.
So, here's what I think it should look like. Tell me where I messed up.
-
Another thing worth mentioning, it has been brought up a number of times.
I prefer setting up with a regular Standard View type UI, where I can control things well (and have a keyboard and whatnot) and then using the system from my HTPC with a limited remote. I think it is weird, and Yaobing thinks it is weird, but apparently people want to do this from a 10-foot UI. This certainly seems to be common among competing products (it annoys me that they make me do configuration through a 10-foot UI, in fact).
Still... I tried, very hard, to also consider setting it up in Theater View when designing the Wizard. For the future though, as we'll start with the Standard View version. I don't know if Yaobing thinks a Theater View version is in the cards, but if so, this could be converted to one with only a few modifications:
* Steps 1 - 3 can definitely be done in Theater View, in a modified form. You'd eliminate 1.2 (but these can be set directly in Options, and you can have good defaults), and 3.2 (but you can let people rename these in Options via Right-click in the grid-view). But the rest can be easily enough. It's all radio buttons and picking from short lists of items. The hardest of these is Location, but if you pre-select intelligently from the OS, then hopefully lots of people won't need to use a clunky on-screen keyboard or whatever to pick a country and zip code.
* Step 4 could be done if you need to, though certainly 4.5 would be left off. IR Blaster configuration will be more... Challenging. I grant you. Though, you could maybe make it more like the old, annoying way in Theater View.
* Step 5 can just list the ones you've added and ask Add or Finish and Scan.
The impossible part is the Channel Scanning/Edit Channels dialog. But I don't think you have to do that at all in the Theater View version of the Wizard. Scan for channels, and show the Progress bar. Maybe list out the most recently detected one above somewhere one-at-a-time and keep a running count of the number detected.
The users can come back to edit them and tweak them later in Options, so you don't need to replicate this there. Just do the scan best effort and dump them all into a big list.
-
Massive effort glynor.
Kudos to you.
Casting my mind back, the biggest hurdle for me was cracking the EPG nut. On that note this section is one of the most important.
Step 2: Service Type
Tell us about your Television service. If you have multiple types, choose one and others can be added later.
2.1 Service Type: (radio buttons)
* Antenna (Over the Air)
* Digital Cable or Satellite
* Analog Cable
* Capture Only (No Channel Guide)
2.2 Select Guide Data Source:
Like this, but just the radio buttons, provider, and help links.
(http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Scan_Channels_Wizard-Download_EPG.png)
Notes:
1 Does not list country or zip code, as that was already collected.
2 Disables or hides options not relevant based on previous choices (particularly, doesn't allow choosing Automatic if you're somewhere that doesn't work).
3 Guide data will automatically be loaded every 24 hours (late at night), rather than asking the user. You will be able to alter these settings if needed via a Change Program Guide Schedule dialog (http://glynor.com/img/screenshots/MC20/Television-Old-Program_Guide_Schedule.png) in Tools > Options > Television
4 The Guide Data Source section is disabled if Service Type is set to Capture Only.
Notes 1 and 2, get applause from me.
For those outside the default countries where the auto download EPG is not an option (oh for some simple drop down boxes !! ... any chance that this could go on the development list?), I'd suggest that the user is direct to use XMLTV (given that mc2xml is relevant to legacy versions of MC) but the current link to XMLTV on the dialogue box is not that useful as a first port of call.
In fact, the really useful info is over here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/EPG (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/EPG)
and I'd suggest it be at the top of the box. Also, that link's opening statement reads:
MC17+ now provides a semi-automated way of creating and populating an EPG. This is partly based on mc2xml. It is no longer necessary to install this [mc2xml] separately.
So, I'd suggest that the dialogue box echo this advice or you could think about retiring the mc2xml option completely (makes sense to me going forward) or maybe leave it hidden away for experienced users to configure for old time's sake. At least make the preferred approach clear up front on the dialogue box.
For XMLTV, the link that's currently in the dialogue box is also at the top of the EPG page. On the dialogue box, I'd delete the XMLTV link and direct users to the EPG link page as a way of prodding them to appreciate the EPG function in overview.
These external links:
http://wiki.xmltv.org/index.php/XMLTVProject#XMLTV_PROJECT (http://wiki.xmltv.org/index.php/XMLTVProject#XMLTV_PROJECT)
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/3_TV/0_TV_Guide/0_EPG/XMLTV (http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_MEDIAPORTAL_1/14_Using_MediaPortal/3_TV/0_TV_Guide/0_EPG/XMLTV)
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/XMLTV (https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/XMLTV)
provide advice of where XMLTV is applicable to which countries. Some of this could be distilled or cross referenced for MC user info.
The investigation via various Interact threads that's been done for the Australia scene is covered in the EPG Wiki entry. In time, it would be useful if there could be similar capture of the setup threads for other countries when they come in.
-
Maybe a side note but windows media centre when scanning for channels seems to also find channels that are not broadcasting at that time. Mc does not do this so you do not get all channels. Can this be changed so all channels even if they are not transmitting at the time be seen?
also windows media centre also allows you to sort tuner and channels in 10 Ft UI so if I have for example a dvb-tuner and dvb-s tuner that share the same channels I can merge them together from my couch instead of in standard mode.
Also windows media centre does support BBC red button (uk only) can mc20 be changed to support this?
I love the fact that you guys are improving TV set up ... this will make mc20 the best option for htpc users
Thanks and keep up all the good work
-
One of the other things that bugs me is the guide listings ( if there isn't a guide listing for a particular programme in theater view in the guide the programme doesn't show up at all which i believe is wrong. Could this be changed ?
If Mc20 wants to act like a PVR it needs the 10ft UI to allow most setting changes. How many people will want to find a keyboard and mouse for example to change some simple settings.
-
Sounds great so far.
I think the 10' UI is great at keeping the focus on what's important.
Thankfully unlike a setopbox. When something is too complex for that space. You can get off your butt and go pick up a keyboard and mouse and take care of it.
I've setup and made lists of hidden and favors channels. Only to have to do it all again.
So what ever is done please make sure. That if I have to do a lot off manual setting. Make it something I can save and re apply.
Thank you for all your hard work!!!!
-
This sounds like a great project. Thanks for taking it on.
I have always thought that having TV under Drives and Devices a little weird in Standard View. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have it at top level. I know that tuners are devices but they feel like they are their own category.
I think that initial setup in Standard View is OK. That is where everything else gets setup so as long as it is easy to do then setting up TV should start there. I also think that MOST options should be available in Theater View. Most of us geek out on this stuff but our spouses don't. My wife doesn't get upset with all the nonsense I have put her through with using the HTPC but when TV doesn't work she needs to be able to at least attempt to fix it. A good 10 foot interface for doing it is probably the best way.
-
Glynor, what I'm seeing here is even MORE steps trying to configure an EPG that some people (me) may not even want. Throw out the EPG, and the first step is scan for channels. This is what that other program does, without dragging you through the Ministry of Silly Walks.
Once video plays, the OPTION "Do you want to set up an epg?" might be appropriate. What an epg does for you is enable more features, but it is NOT part of the TV process, and this is where MC gets all tied in knots.
-
Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
I'll try to respond to specific questions this weekend.
-
Once video plays, the OPTION "Do you want to set up an epg?" might be appropriate. What an epg does for you is enable more features, but it is NOT part of the TV process, and this is where MC gets all tied in knots.
This depends entirely on the type of service you have. Many types of service are completely useless without an EPG (any Set-Top Box based setup, for example). You can't scan any of my channels.
I think most people wouldn't be very interested in the feature at all without an EPG.
However, that's a valid point worth thinking about how to short-cut it if it isn't needed. The only page of the proposed setup system that has anything to do with the EPG, though, is Page 2 (and maybe location on page 1, though that also helps with the tuner choice). The rest is all just to get the hardware setup without asking technical questions. I think we could solve your concern by simply having a "No EPG" choice on Page 2.
-
When you say "completely useless", do you mean it doesn't work, or it doesn't appeal to dweebs? I think this is an important distinction, and one that is completely lost in the dense thicket of Q&A MC forces on the unsuspecting viewer, while WinTV is willing to scan for channels and let me watch TV.
IMO, stop proposing on the first date. Turn on the TV, and then struggle and futz for the perfect EPG, if you must.
-
When you say "completely useless", do you mean it doesn't work, or it doesn't appeal to dweebs?
Does not work at all.
For any user who has a set-top box or a cable card tuner, what you are calling a channel scan does not happen at all. That's basically everyone in the US who isn't receiving over-the-air broadcasts. If I use an outdoor OTA ATSC (digital) antenna at my house, I get 2 channels.
Two.
If I install a huge rooftop array, I could maybe increase that to 4. Maybe. The closest FOX affiliate broadcasts from a city that is a 2.5 hour drive from my house.
Both Time Warner and Comcast now encrypt essentially all the QAM channels, except Shop at Home network and some cruddy local public access stuff (not PBS, but the local town office running a PowerPoint file in a loop with info about registering your dog). Those two providers cover something like 98.5% of the people in the US.
Q&A MC forces on the unsuspecting viewer, while WinTV is willing to scan for channels and let me watch TV.
I don't understand which specific questions you want eliminated. It would help if you could pick out exactly what parts of the proposed setup you're referring to. The only thing that specifically relates to the EPG in my proposed guide above is Step 2.2. This is one Radio Button choice between one of three options, along with a provider drop-down if you're in North America so that the Automatic configuration works.
In fact, for non-NA users, it would be even better because only two choices would show there (since Automatic doesn't work, it will be hidden, since we already know you're not in NA).
-
I have a dual OTA tuner, HD Homerun.
Do I need to scan each tuner for stations, or will a single scan of the device program both tuners?
Ken
-
I have a dual OTA tuner, HD Homerun.
Do I need to scan each tuner for stations, or will a single scan of the device program both tuners?
Ken
You just need to do a single scan.
-
I'm sorry I missed this thread until now. I've been busy. I'm still busy, but can throw a few comments in. Please forgive me if they are brief, rambling, cryptic or blunt. I might just have to imbed comments as well, rather than do lots of editing. Oh, also I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I may be repeating what others have said. Sorry.
1.1 Location:
* Country (combobox)
* Zip Code (textbox)
Notes:
* Auto-fill Country from OS.
* Zip code grayed out if Country is not US (unless the Zip/Postal is also useful for Canada).
You need to deal with non-USA countries better. There are a lot of us out here. Always ask Country. Always ask for the relevant Code for that country. i.e. In Australia, ask for Post Code. Even if you can't use it yet. Being asked makes the user feel like MC is being customised specifically for them, even if you can't use the data. In the long term you could use the data to advise of EPG solutions available in the area. There will be privacy considerations, so you need to put a Privacy Policy link on the dialogue. Windows Media Center asked me for this information, and at first I wondered why they needed it and who would be told where I live, but then I realised it was for EPG collection. Make that obvious and people will be happy to share.
1.2 Global Recording Options
* Recording directory (Textbox with Browse button)
Okay, generally you need to reverse your thinking and not use "technical" terms. Think of these settings from a user perspective.
Don't use the term "Recording directory", ask;
"Where would you like to save/store your TV recordings?"
You could also consider making some rational suggestions to the user, based on the available drives on their PC or network. You really don't want a user to select their 64GB SSD as the place to put recordings, or the drive their OS is on. They should be warned if they try to do this.
* Recording format (arrow switcher widget used for same item in Options > Television currently)
Recording Format Notes:
* I think the choices should be JTV or Native.
* Explain the differences between these options
* Is this even needed? What ARE the differences?
Don't ask what "Recording format" they want to use. Who cares what format it is? Not a green user who just wants to start using it. Later they may care, but now they may want to set it up to provide functionality. So you need to ask a series of questions, like:
1. Do you want to Time Shift your TV viewing? (Note, this one may be redundant, since Time Shifting is always supported, but it informs the user and helps in choosing a format to recommend.) Provide a little question mark next to "Time Shifting" with a popup to explain what Time Shifting is. Almost everybody wants it once they know it provides "Pause, Rewind and Fast Forward TV". [Therefore either TS/Native or JTV format.]
2.Do you want to be able to record all of a TV program you have been watching when you can't watch the remainder just now? Again, a little question mark to explain that MC can record a complete program from start to finish if you have been watching the program from the start, and now wish to go to bed, need to leave home, can't watch TV just now, etc. The wording of the question could be better. [Therefore JTV format.]
3. Do you wish to save TV recordings to another device and play it there? Okay, this one is harder to define, since a recording can be sent to an iPad, iPhone etc. if it is transcoded. Well, I believe it can. I haven't done that yet. What I am trying to find out here is if they expect to be able to copy a file to their laptop and play it on a plane, or something that. [Therefore TS/Native format.]
4. A question about streaming, transcoding, anything else?
5. etc. Think about the capability of the format, the conflicts (you can't do 2. above and have one file you can just copy to a laptop), and what the format provides from the point of view of the user.
Asking Wizard questions from the perspective of the non-technical user is key to people actually successfully using a wizard. There are a bunch of people who would be insulted if you implied that they didn't know what a "directory" was on a computer. But there are a whole bunch more that don't actually know where there stuff is stored on a computer. I have worked with more than one secretary who claimed to know how to use Microsoft Word, and yet when asked to make corrections would be very unhappy because the only way they knew how to do that was to retype the whole document. Some were better, but could open an existing document through Word.
-
3.2 Tuner Profile Name: (textbox)
* Give this Tuner Type a friendly name.
* Pre-filled with the name of the selected tuner type (ATSC, DVB-T, etc) but you can change it to something nicer.
3.3 Assign Devices: (grid view with checkboxes)
* List each detected tuner capable of receiving the Service Type selected in Step 2. Hide or disable those that can't possibly be relevant.
* If the user selects a Tuner Type (3.1) that precludes a particular hardware device, it should be grayed out (but still visible)
* Allow the user to select multiple devices
* Devices sometimes will be capable of using multiple Tuner Types, so you can't pre-filter this list against already assigned devices.
* Next in the wizard is disabled until you select at least one hardware device to assign to this Tuner Type.
What:
Reverse the sequence of 3.2 and 3.3.
Prefilled the Tuner Profile Name with the name that the device returns itself, or from Device Manager, suffixed by the Tuner Type. i.e. In my (simple) case, with my "DigitalNow Quad DVB-T Receiver", the reported name in Device Manager and MC System Information is "QUAD DVB-T". So the Tuner Profile Name would become the awkward "QUAD DVB-T DVB-T". Well, unless a little logic could be applied to the naming to make that nicer. But that doesn't really matter.
Why:
People know what they bought, or had installed. They should know the tuner type as well, but may not. Hence, use a name that is more likely to be recognised. In my case, the word "Quad" differentiates the device. For some of the Hauppauge and similar devices this naming would work even better, I suspect.
BTW I am not convinced about the Tuner Profile Name thing. Wouldn't it only be of value when a device can capture more than one type of source? For example, if a device had both Digital and Analogue capture capabilities? Maybe it is worthwhile for this alone, but mostly it would seem to just add another layer of naming, especially if the "Capture Device" is going to be listed in the edit channel dialogue.
* Favorite/Unfavorite and Hide/Unhide should be Checkbox Columns in the channels grid-view, not discreet buttons.
Yes. Please put the check boxes to the left on the name, so that the remaining width is available to the name without resizing columns. Of course, keep them just wide enough for the check box, and work out some simple way of identifying them. Simple F and H, perhaps with a question mark next to them for a popup description of both.
It would help if this dialogue window was resizable as well, along with quite a few other dialogues in MC. Some channel names are long. Some Capture Device names are long. Seeing the maximum number of channels vertically by expanding the dialogue window would be good.
* The Edit button, for mine at least, doesn't seem to do anything not shown in the Right-Hand pane of the dialog. If there are "advanced edit" things for a channel, it should only list the stuff that can't be done in-line, and the button should be over on the right-hand side.
The right hand panel is for display. The Edit dialogue is for changing parameters. It shouldn't be required I guess, but what if the details are being detected incorrectly, if there are multiple audio streams in the Transport Stream, if the frequency is a little off the official frequency. I don't know if these things are possible, but I have used that dialogue in setting up and reviewing my channels. As we are no longer in a Wizard, I wouldn't like to see this capability removed. Not to forget, if you need to add a channel with the Add button, it needs to look pretty much like the Edit dialogue. If you can add a channel manually using the Add button, you can make a mistake doing it, so you need an Edit button.
If it could all be done inline, with a new Apply button to save any changes to an existing channel, that would be fine. However, differentiating between a display of channel details, and editing those details, isn't a bad thing.
* What does Save Channel Order do? Doesn't Done do this too? If you really want to have separate Apply and Done buttons, then do an OK, Apply, Cancel "standard bottom-right" button panel instead.
However it is done, the ability to save the current channel sort, without being forced to leave the dialogue, is a must have. I used it and I only have 34 channels. How would you feel if you had 300 channels, had spent two hours sorting them, and then for whatever reason, lost the edits? Bad, I would guess. Standard OK, Apply and Cancel buttons would be okay though.
* * Next/Previous Uses Favorite Channels Only should not be in that dialog, and only in Tools > Options > Television.
I disagree, at least given the current "Favorite Channels" and "Hidden Channels" drop down lists in Tools > Options > Television. There is no dialogue box currently in the "Favorite Channels" drop down list to add such a check box. Any check box should be close to a visible list of favourite channels. If it was just a tick box at the top of the current drop down list it would be confusing to users, who use that list to tick favourite channels. I'm not wedded to the idea of keeping the drop down lists as they are, but they do provide a quick way of changing both Favorite and Hidden channels. The Advanced > Edit Channels dialogue is an advanced version of doing the same, showing more information about the channels. Maybe the Favorite drop down list needs to become a dialogue, with the "Next/Previous Uses Favorite Channels Only " check box at the top. Then the Hidden drop down list could be removed altogether and that functionality left in the Advanced > Edit Channels List dialogue.
Actually, I think that both the Favorite and Hidden Channels drop down list have limited use, as the list scrolls off to the right of the dialogue anyway. Remove them both and leave the "Next/Previous Uses Favorite Channels Only " in the Advanced > Edit Channels List dialogue.
While on Favorite Channels list though, I have previously used a system that allowed me to have multiple favorite lists, and to select which list I wish to use, for example in the Guide. So I could have Sports Favorites, Documentary Favorites, or Mary's Favorites and John's Favorites. Maybe whatever you do in this favorites area should consider providing that capability, if not now then in the future.
* * Attributes is nice, but can be hidden under a button (especially since it is almost all duplicates of the things shown above). That gives you much more room to move things on the right-hand side, since the Channel List grid-view will be taller and wider.
No, for me Attributes shows a lot more than what is above, and it helps me understand what the channel is, without going into an edit dialogue. I looked up this information a lot while I was getting XMLTV working, and most often I used it by clicking on channels on the left, check the parameter, click on the next channel, check the parameter, etc. I would not have wanted to add an extra click on a button to see the parameters, which would then change focus, cover other information, etc. I would not like to see it go, and I would not like to be forced to open an Edit dialogue to see it. But whatever is done here, it needs to be worked out with my comments on the Edit and Add buttons above.
In fact I think that everything except Favorite Channels management is an advanced function, including Scan for Channels, Group, Hidden, Add/Edit, IR Emitter for STB, etc.
Show Status (how useful is that in diagnosing recordings? Lots!) is a nice feature that many users would like to find and use easily as well. Maybe there should be a "Show TV Status" menu item outside the Options dialogues for this.
Maybe the whole General and Advanced sections of the Television dialogue needs to be rethought from the perspective of the user of those sections. Also obviously the Country, Zip/Post code and Load Program Guide need to be kept together, since they are set together or should be, and the LPG is a regular process unless it has been fully automated. EDIT: As I read on I see this is also planned.
-
I have always thought that having TV under Drives and Devices a little weird in Standard View. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have it at top level. I know that tuners are devices but they feel like they are their own category.
I agree with this. Please. Just this one simple thing would mean that my other half is far more likely to edit TV subscriptions so that they work properly, which means she would set up the subscriptions instead of asking me every time. This isn't part of the "make TV setup easier" project, but it is part of the "make TV easier" project.
I think that initial setup in Standard View is OK.
And this. Although for something like changing favorites, or re-sequencing them, in a named favorites list, a 10' interface would make sense. Even if it isn't the quickest way of doing it.
-
I'll try to respond to your comments in some detail Roderick, but not tonight.
But two things:
1. Regarding the ZIP/Postal code for non-NA locations: Not a bad idea. However, I loathe asking for personal data that we don't need. The overriding goal was NOT to ask for anything we don't need (brevity is the key). So... :-\
2. Regarding why the Device Profile (Jim suggested we rename Tuner Profile to that, and I agree, I think) is "tied" to the Tuner Type, and not to the Device:
Because they ARE tied to the tuner TYPE and not to a specific device. That's how MC's TV feature works architecturally. When you define a setup, it is defined as a ATSC setup (or DVB-C or Cable Card, etc), not a setup for this particular tuner. So, there is not a way to have one "guide" for one set of ATSC tuners and a different guide for a different set. You define a setup for ATSC tuners, and when MC wants to make an ATSC recording, it looks for available tuners that can fill that role. Tuners can be "designated" as ATSC-enabled, but the settings for "ATSC" are global to MC.
Because most of the other software I've used and tested does NOT work this way, it was not what I expected either. I had many things reversed initially from this current design, and it informs a fair bit about why it is setup the way it is.
As I said before, this isn't about changing things. Also, there is a big benefit to this method, because it doesn't force you to re-do the setup for multiple tuners of the same type at all. That's why you can just add them all at once to a particular Device Profile. Conceptually, if you don't add a particular tuner, you are excluding it. Does this make sense? There are a few other benefits to this method too, and it ended up making the device selection part easier.
I didn't like asking for the Tuner Type without first filtering against the Device. I wanted to pick the Device first, and only ask the other question if absolutely necessary. But you really can't, because of the way it is set up. That's why it asks some of what it does in the order it does, though, so that it can filter them as much as is possible, and still use simple selectors like Radio buttons (for the maybe, possibly Theater View version).
-
Okay, a couple more. I like the idea of suggesting a Recording Directory by looking for common locations (and larger disks with lots of available space, or something).
Not sure about the naming. I also don't want it to be too big. "Location" is probably better than Directory, though, I'll grant you. I wasn't, honestly, sure if we should add it at all, but it makes sense in a lot of ways.
The Recording Format I want to remove if at all possible. I need to needle Yaobing more about that one. He explained a lot more about the format behind the scenes (and it doesn't work quite the way many people here think it does). I think there might be a way to make that choice unnecessary completely. But, that'd be asking for changes (so out of scope).
-
First, sorry for doing a brain dump earlier, and having not even read through the whole thread. I was time limited, and will be away for several days from tonight, so wanted to get some feedback in. Once I started, ideas started popping, and I needed to get them down.
The zip/postal code thing could be optional. If ever MC has a better non-NA EPG solution it will be required. I just thought adding it now would ease the process. Sort of future proofing. I understand the privacy and brevity issues though. However, you may want to get to know EPG Collector a bit, to understand some of the issues we XMLTV users have. That may be a bit hard since you could only receive two channels even if you put up a antenna though! I have no idea whether those channels even provide OTA EPG either, and EPG Collector uses that as the source of data.
The Device/Tuner Profile I don't quite understand yet, but that doesn't matter if there is sound reasoning behind it, which it sounds like there is. So a Device Profile may actually have more than one device in it, but they will all be the same service/tuner type. Is that right? That is, if a user had two network DVB-T cards, with two tuners in each, plus a dual PCIe tuner card in the HTPC case, they would all belong to the one DVB-T Device Profile, making six DVB-T tuners available to MC and it wouldn't care which one it used?
That make a lot of sense, although with shared network DVB-T tuners there may be some issues, since they may not be dedicated to the HTPC that is being set up. I guess as long as they report whether they are available or not, that shouldn't be a problem.
I think I like Device Profile better, because a Capture Card isn't a tuner, and neither is a STB or a Cable Card, really. Based on your explanation I guess naming based on the service type does make more sense. Also I like the idea of the architecture behind the reasoning, as it should make finding free resources, or tuners in my case, more reliable. Some other systems I have looked at had very bad reliability of selecting free tuners, and I haven't had any problem like that in MC.
Okay, a couple more. I like the idea of suggesting a Recording Directory by looking for common locations (and larger disks with lots of available space, or something).
Take a look at some consumer level backup solutions for ideas here, if you can. I use EaseUS Todo Backup now, and like others it "assists" the user to select the best backup location. You can't backup the system to the system drive, and it will show you space available on all drives. I think (can't remember as it has been a long time since I set it up) it even selects the best location based on its analysis. Nothing fancy, just space and type of drive I believe.
The Recording Format I want to remove if at all possible. I need to needle Yaobing more about that one. He explained a lot more about the format behind the scenes (and it doesn't work quite the way many people here think it does). I think there might be a way to make that choice unnecessary completely. But, that'd be asking for changes (so out of scope).
Unfortunately there are significant differences between recording in TS or JTV formats. If JTV formats could be converted to another format, say MKV, within MC and not lose any quality or audio channels, then it may be an obvious choice. Today the conversion process in MC outputs only stereo audio, and when the input is 5.1 channel AC-3 audio, that is just unacceptable.
I have tried to understand the JTV format, its benefits and limitations, and Yaobing has provided some insight along the way. But if you can clarify further, that would be great.
Thanks for putting in all the hard work, asking questions and listening to feedback. But I understand that you need to stick to your brief, both for yourself and JRiver, or this could just get too big. Carry on! :D
-
That may be a bit hard since you could only receive two channels even if you put up a antenna though! I have no idea whether those channels even provide OTA EPG either, and EPG Collector uses that as the source of data.
Yeah, and worse, my Hauppauge HVR-2250 died a few months back and I don't have a big motivation to replace it because... You know, I don't get any channels that way.
I'm a bit out in the boonies (pretty urban by Maine standards, but still), so two channels via OTA is on the low side. But, it isn't like it is just because I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'd guess the average US person can get 4-6 channels (1-2 of which are useless junk) via OTA broadcasts. Effectively, the useful ones are: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, and then sometimes if you're lucky TBS or WB. Anything outside of that is only broadcast OTA in very specialized locations. And, if you're outside of a metropolitan area, then you're probably with me at 1-2 reliable channels with maybe a third on the right kind of day.
And Clear QAM (our version of DVB-C) is essentially dead. I think COX still provides 3-4 useful clear channels, and Time Warner does in some places but not others. Comcast doesn't anywhere as far as I know (and doesn't for sure at my in-law's house). And, of course, for other major providers (Google Fiber, Verizon, AT&T, DirecTV, Dish Network, etc), you get nothing at all. It is STB or the highway.
Having an actual tuner that can scan channels like an old-style TV set is over here, by and large.
-
So a Device Profile may actually have more than one device in it, but they will all be the same service/tuner type. Is that right? That is, if a user had two network DVB-T cards, with two tuners in each, plus a dual PCIe tuner card in the HTPC case, they would all belong to the one DVB-T Device Profile, making six DVB-T tuners available to MC and it wouldn't care which one it used?
Exactly. You do get it.
I'm not 100% sure that network devices fall in the same place in the registry as local devices, but otherwise, that's the ticket. It doesn't care if the various DVB-T devices are entirely different make/models. If it needs to record a DVB-T channel, it says: give me a list of available, enabled, DVB-T tuners, and picks the highest priority one.
-
Take a look at some consumer level backup solutions for ideas here, if you can. I use EaseUS Todo Backup now, and like others it "assists" the user to select the best backup location. You can't backup the system to the system drive, and it will show you space available on all drives.
Yeah, I got what you meant.
We can't exclude the C drive (which wouldn't make sense for a backup system, naturally), but we could certainly not suggest the User Profile's Video folder (or whatever) if it has 22GB of free space and there is a D drive that has 2TB free. I think this is easily addressed.
I have tried to understand the JTV format, its benefits and limitations, and Yaobing has provided some insight along the way. But if you can clarify further, that would be great.
Yaobing said:
JTV is not better for time-shifting, it is the time-shifting. It is just a saved segment of a time-shifting session. Back in the good days of analog TV, we used to use AVI for TV recording. At the time, when we start recording, we had to stop time-shifting and rebuild a DirectShow graph for recording alone. The trouble was the user then could not be watching it at the same time. We could, if we tried, to do it as we do for TS recording now, simultaneously record to AVI and still be time-shifting, but we decided that it is not necessary at all. All we needed to do is to save the time-shifting buffer. For that purpose I created the "jtv" which is just a stub file that contains info about the particular time-shifting buffer and how it should be played. When digital TV was started, I added the ability to record in ts format. Its portability is the big reason.
We want the users to be able to watch and time-shift anytime, including when they are recording. So time-shifting is always run during recording, regardless which recording format you choose.
The advantages of using JTV format are:
1. Being able to start recording at an already-past time. What this means is, if you are watching a show live, half way into the program you decide you want to record it (like, this is a nice show, I should record it so my wife can watch it when she comes home, or, curse that emergency call, I have to go now, I will record this and watch it later), with the press of the Record button on your remote control, the entire show will be recorded (provided that your time-shifting window is large enough so the first half of the show is still in the buffer in its entirety). With TS format, recording starts at the moment you choose to record, and any portion that is in the past would not be recorded.
2. JTV recording will cause less disk activity on your computer because when recording in TS, your time-shifting is still going on, in addition to MC writing data to the TS file.
3. TS format is not available for all devices (not for some analog devices). But this should not be such a big deal, as we automatically fall back to JTV when TS is not possible.
So, I'd say in a perfect world, this choice would entirely go away. And, I think the "dual writing" it is doing when Timeshifting and recording to TS is crazy-pants. My dream-scenario would be:
1. It always records/time-shifts to JTV internally.
2. Immediately post-recording, it remuxes the JTV to an equivalent "normal file". This would probably be MPEG-TS or MPEG-PS, though it would be nice to provide a MKV option too. The remuxing would have to provide exact feature parity (including AC3 and all of that, and not force a transcode, which would degrade quality and be "heavy" on the CPU).
That is, essentially, exactly what BeyondTV used to do, and it worked perfectly. The files were recorded while active to some oddball multi-file format like JTV, but then as soon as you hit Stop and the application went idle for a second, it would "become" a TS or MPG file. Since it was just re-wraping the existing streams, it didn't take much "CPU work" at all to do it. If the remuxing step is still too long or heavy, I think a decent alternative to #2 would be to schedule remuxing for idle time.
But, I don't know if this is a massive (eg v21 or 22) project or not. Again, that's a bit out of scope. So, unless Yaobing chimes in and says "oh yeah, I'll just do that now" then I think we have to deal with the system as is.
With that in mind, my initial inkling was to leave it out entirely and set it to JTV. But, I'm afraid of the compatibility concerns. We can certainly rename the choices though to something like JRiver (JTV) and Native (TS). But the whole thing is weird how it doesn't even obey the option depending on the capture device... Sigh.
-
I disagree, at least given the current "Favorite Channels" and "Hidden Channels" drop down lists in Tools > Options > Television. There is no dialogue box currently in the "Favorite Channels" drop down list to add such a check box. Any check box should be close to a visible list of favourite channels. If it was just a tick box at the top of the current drop down list it would be confusing to users, who use that list to tick favourite channels. I'm not wedded to the idea of keeping the drop down lists as they are, but they do provide a quick way of changing both Favorite and Hidden channels.
They would be gone. All channel editing and scanning would go to the Edit Channels dialog. No separate dialogs! No hidden configuration!
-
I'd like to say, in closing (for now), that I definitely want this to work for our non-US users. We might have to tweak things. And, I'm going to rely on some of you a lot as we progress to make suggestions for improving the XMLTV workflow.
But, really, really try not to worry so much about "how it works now" from a UI perspective. Architecturally we need to worry about that, but from a setup-UI perspective, lets try to get to somewhere better.
-
All this config stuff is good when needed, but when I want to use MC to watch TV, I'm going to be reconfigging for location 2-3 times per week. The good news is that it's always going to be an analog out from a sat coax to a Hauppauge nubbin. The bad news is MC currently isn't able to do this simply.
As for OTA TV, I live in a rural area with a clear view of a metro area and MC easily finds two dozen channels. Still a few too many questions when the answer is obvious, but MC will do this and the results are superb, again using the Hauppauge.
Think about playing an audio track in MC. There are myriad potential configs, but if you click on the track MC will play it if it can, and let you fine tune the adjustments later.
If MC can find a video signal it should play it.
-
Thanks for the feedback, Tab. We'll think about that.
What 24 OTA channels do you get out there?!?
-
Out where??
I bought a Freevision antenna, which is a one-panel bowtie, just to see what kind of digits were flyin around. I get all the standards and some Spanglish/Chingrish stuff, and a lot of cases where the OnO's have divvied up their bands into HD/SD/rebroad, which I suppose doesn't count.
The antenna's too deep in a closet to pull out and use, so I can't tell you exactly what channels there were, but here's my conclusion: Anything that you can get OTA ought to be. The picture quality is so so so much better than sat and most cable, especially the 720p which can be blown up the size of the Hindenburg without degradation (1080i breaks down quickly).
So if you don't get anything try one of those deep-space Yagis. Sports especially will be eye-popping.
-
I'm a bit out in the boonies (pretty urban by Maine standards, but still), so two channels via OTA is on the low side. But, it isn't like it is just because I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'd guess the average US person can get 4-6 channels (1-2 of which are useless junk) via OTA broadcasts. Effectively, the useful ones are: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, and then sometimes if you're lucky TBS or WB. Anything outside of that is only broadcast OTA in very specialized locations. And, if you're outside of a metropolitan area, then you're probably with me at 1-2 reliable channels with maybe a third on the right kind of day.
Hello Glynor!
Love what you are doing! Keep up the good work!
But I have to say that the above may be may be a little too harsh of an analysis of the number of channels that can be received via ATSC on average in the US and Canada. Here in Montreal, I receive 26 channels. In larger metropolitan areas like NYC, Miami, Chicago and many more, the numbers of ATSC channels can exceed 50. Remember that most of the population in NA is located in large cities. That corresponds the most prospects for JRiver's MediaCenter. :-)
Plus I don't know what resolution the US cable companies broadcast in, but here in Canada you cannot get better than 720P on cable or satellite, yet you can full HD in 1080I via an antenna with ATSC.
Michel (A long time MC user, actually since the bad ol' days of MJ 7.2 ;-) )
-
I get over 30 OTA channels. These are my only source for live broadcasts. okay, a few are junk.
-
I knew raw channel counts were higher in cities because of duplicates and public access channels, but what 30 channels even broadcast?
-
Out where??
Out where you are.
-
I knew raw channel counts were higher in cities because of duplicates and public access channels, but what 30 channels even broadcast?
For my part here in Montreal, I receive the following channels with my antenna:
2.1 - CBC French (Montreal)
3.1 - CBS (Vermont)
3.2 - CBS Weather (Vermont)
5.1 - NBC (Vermont)
5.2 - CW (Vermont)
5.3 - MeTV (Vermont)
6.1 - CBC English (Montreal)
8 - CTV Analog (Ottawa)
10.1 - TVA (Montreal)
12.1 - CTV (Montreal)
15.1 - Global (Montreal)
15.2 - Global SD (Montreal) (Dupe of 15.1)
17.1 - Tele-Quebec (Montreal)
22.1 - ABC HD (Vermont)
22.2 - ABC SD (Vermont) (dupe)
29.1 - CFTU University TV (Montreal)
33.1 - PBS (Vermont)
33.2 - PBS+ (Vermont)
33.3 - Create TV (Vermont)
33.4 - PBS World (Vermont)
35.1 - CJFP HD (Montreal)
44.1 - Fox HD (Vermont)
44.2 - Fox SD (Vermont) (dupe)
57.1 - PBS HD (New York State)
57.2 - PBS SD (New York State)
57.3 - PBS SD (New York State) (not a dupe)
47.1 - Multi-Cultural (Montreal)
62.1 - CITY TV (Montreal)
28 stations minus 3 dupes = 25 unique station.
More than I need. :)
Michel.
-
I knew raw channel counts were higher in cities because of duplicates and public access channels, but what 30 channels even broadcast?
I am basically line of site with the broadcast antennas in Chicago and have a LOT of OTA. If you really know I'll make a list of what I actually get but this looks about right http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/il/chicago/over-the-air/60661 (http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/il/chicago/over-the-air/60661) Even with doubles it is probabaly 80+
-
See, with both examples, I guess it depends on what you consider duplicates. To me, different versions of PBS (even PBS+ or Create TV) are really all pretty much the same thing. If it airs the same content in a different order, that's irrelevant if you're just going to use them as a "recording source". I think I get one of those Weather Channel type things too that isn't included in my 2 channels count, as well. The fact that people still get weather info on their TVs is baffling to me. You know, the Internet exists.
So, if I was counting mlefebvre's list above, I'd call that 12 or 13 distinct channels. Still way better than I thought you'd get. Some of that is because it is Canadian (so you get Canadian channels and US channels)...
But, I'll grant that cities certainly have higher numbers of channels outside of the basics I listed above. Though, none of them are anything I'd really be likely to record anything on, but they are there. And some people aren't coming from a "fully PVR" background like I am.
Still, though, that's pretty irrelevant and is a side discussion... The basic thing is this:
1. Is having an EPG the most important feature of using MC for Television support. To me it is. Without it, it is absolutely useless (I'm not going to flip through channels and watch live TV like an animal).
2. What portions of that do we need to skip to have a setup that doesn't include an EPG.
* We don't need 1.1's Zip Code. But if you want to make the hardware selection easier, you still need Country.
* 2.2 can be skipped
That's pretty much it, that I see. Does anyone else see more that is specific to the EPG?
-
Okay. I've made minor modifications above. Including:
1.1:
* Zip Code can be left blank (even for North America). It will pop up a warning (only if the Country setting could use it anyway) that Automatic EPG will not be available.
2.2:
* Also, add fourth option: No Electronic Program Guide, which is selected (and other options disabled) if Capture Only is enabled.
That way, you can easily configure it to use no Program Guide at all. You only need to do these steps once (unless you change capture hardware all the time too).
jgreen, in case you didn't realize it: To rescan for new channels, you don't use this Wizard at all. You open the Edit Channels dialog and click the Rescan for Channels button. Perhaps you didn't realize this was part of it. Read the Channel Setup Dialog section (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92807.msg639280#msg639280) above. The Wizard takes you to this dialog when you finish, but that dialog is not part of the Wizard (unlike before). It should be much easier for you to use it this way if you take your laptop with you and watch TV "on the road" or something like that.
-
1. Is having an EPG the most important feature of using MC for Television support. To me it is. Without it, it is absolutely useless (I'm not going to flip through channels and watch live TV like an animal).
I totally agree. Without an EPG, I would not use MC or any other program for TV viewing. I PVR 95% of what I watch. Not just for the flexibility it provides me but also to be able to watch TV without commercials.
Michel.
-
I do too. But it is reasonable that people might not want it. In a "road warrior" type of setup, I can see it. You might not want to bother if you'll only be there a few days.
With a USB tuner dongle, you could use MC and a laptop as a "TV on the Road".
Makes sense, so there had to be a way to skip it during setup. I think now there is.
-
I've made some additional tweaks above to incorporate other feedback (the browse for location option and some other small things).
-
So, if I was counting mlefebvre's list above, I'd call that 12 or 13 distinct channels. Still way better than I thought you'd get. Some of that is because it is Canadian (so you get Canadian channels and US channels)...
Actually, there are 20 distinct programming channels in Michel's list. I know, I have the same OTA Rx.
Not bad at all for free !
2.1 - CBC French, 6.1 - CBC English, 10.1 - TVA, 12.1 - CTV, 15.1 - Global, 17.1 - Tele-Quebec, 29.1 - CFTU University TV, 35.1 - CJFP, 47.1 - Multi-Cultural, 62.1 - CITY TV, 3.1 - CBS, 5.1 - NBC, 5.2 - CW, 5.3 - MeTV, 22.1 - ABC, 33.1 - PBS, 33.2 - PBS+, 33.3 - Create TV, 33.4 - PBS World, 44.1 - Fox
Moderator EDIT: No move tags.
-
I get what you're saying. That's just not the way I count them (because, to me, it is no different than HBO 1, HBO 2, HBO Zone, etc, which I consider all one "station"). But, I get it. Like I said... That's not really relevant to this discussion. If you like the OTA channels you're using, great!
Over the Air viewership has made something of a resurgence of late, because you can now supplement it with online sources. I understand that it is important, obviously, to support that. In fact, that is very much the point of using a system like this to record TV. To use OTA broadcasts as just another source, if you have access to good ones.
But the percentage of OTA-only households in the US (http://www.nab.org/documents/newsroom/pressRelease.asp?id=3168) is still no where near the majority.
So, you have to handle a variety of options.
-
Whilst watching live TV for example channel 101 if I then enter the guide it automatically defaults to channel 1.could this be changed so whatever channel you are watching and press the guide button the guide goes directly to channel 101. Also if I select live TV surly the default action should be to go to previous channel viewed which is what most PVR's do.
Just a suggestion. Grin
-
The Recording Format I want to remove if at all possible. I need to needle Yaobing more about that one. He explained a lot more about the format behind the scenes (and it doesn't work quite the way many people here think it does). I think there might be a way to make that choice unnecessary completely. But, that'd be asking for changes (so out of scope).
If you're only going to keep the JTV format, I would be opposed to doing this as the files aren't in a standard format that can be easily used in other apps. If for some reason I decide to move away from MC or if there's an issue that prevents me from watching a recording, it's nice to know that I can easily take any existing TV recordings with me / watch them in other software while I wait for the problem to get resolved.
Edit: After reading a bit further, I see you're suggesting the possibility of using JTV format while recording and then converting it to a standard file format after the recording is done. That strikes me as a really good idea as it gives the benefits of the JTV format during recording, but leaves the final result in a more portable / standard format.
-
If you're only going to keep the JTV format, I would be opposed to doing this as the files aren't in a standard format that can be easily used in other apps. If for some reason I decide to move away from MC or if there's an issue that prevents me from watching a recording, it's nice to know that I can easily take any existing TV recordings with me / watch them in other software while I wait for the problem to get resolved.
Edit: After reading a bit further, I see you're suggesting the possibility of using JTV format while recording and then converting it to a standard file format after the recording is done. That strikes me as a really good idea as it gives the benefits of the JTV format during recording, but leaves the final result in a more portable / standard format.
There are moves afoot with at least one piece of external software to work directly with .jtv files:
[JTV]Would you like VideoReDo to open JRiver JTV files directly? (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92571.0)
Also MC has the option of working with .ts files that does a convert from .jtv after a record job is finished.
In the thread above there's a cross link to another thread where the VRD developer asks for detailed specs regarding the .jtv format and Yaobing offers up a response. I'm yet to see something further from VRD on this one yet.
-
Also MC has the option of working with .ts files that does a convert from .jtv after a record job is finished.
Minor correction Astromo. When TS files are selected for TV recordings, JTV and TS files are written in parallel. There is no conversion done at the end of the recording. The JTV files, which are the Time Shift files, are simply deleted, while the TS files are retained.
I would find the references for that, but I am on my iPhone at the moment. Glynor quoted Yaobing's description of JTV functionality somewhere around here though.
-
windows media centre
In other words, make it just like Windows Media Center, excluding its pitfalls. That would be perfect for me.
How difficult would it be to be able to use an external STB for the 'source', like XBox One does? So just pass through the video/audio from the STB, but control and recordings are done in MC.
-
How difficult would it be to be able to use an external STB for the 'source', like XBox One does? So just pass through the video/audio from the STB, but control and recordings are done in MC.
I don't have a STB or any need for one, but as far as I know MC already does this. You do need to use an IR blaster, controlled by MC, to control the STB of course.
Do a little searching and you'll find out how.
-
In other words, make it just like Windows Media Center, excluding its pitfalls. That would be perfect for me.
Yes, something along the lines of that would be great. WMC has a few bugs, but is a great solution for watching/recording TV.
How difficult would it be to be able to use an external STB for the 'source', like XBox One does? So just pass through the video/audio from the STB, but control and recordings are done in MC.
If the STB is a cable company box, why not just get a Ceton or Silicondust CableCard tuner and rent a CableCard from the cable company?
-
If the STB is a cable company box, why not just get a Ceton or Silicondust CableCard tuner and rent a CableCard from the cable company?
I'm in the UK, so nothing of the sort is available!
WMC has a few bugs, but is a great solution for watching/recording TV.
And missing features (since I last used it - don't know if it's changed).
I think for TV to 'work' properly, it needs to mimic an STB as closely as possible (I do realize MC can do some of these already):
during scan, only add channels your area can receive, without having to create filtered lists
EPG, including live TV overlay
favorite channels
pause/record/rewind/fast forward, with icons showing the current 'state'
archiving/auto-moving of recordings*
planner, showing recordings for playback and upcoming recordings
*I have a 256GB SSD so would want recordings to be primarily stored here. If I used Live TV in MC I would like the ability to move older shows (whether watched or unwatched) somewhere else automatically, say a NAS. You should also have the ability to manually archive too, on the same list you would find the 'Delete' option. Another option should be 'auto-move once recorded', so you're recording directly to a local disk rather than over the LAN, which could introduce problems (switch or cable failure for example). Playback of the show would then be over the LAN obviously, but it would instantly be available on any MC machine, even without MC server/client setup.
-
I don't have a STB or any need for one, but as far as I know MC already does this. You do need to use an IR blaster, controlled by MC, to control the STB of course.
Do a little searching and you'll find out how.
Am I right or wrong in saying that the XBox One doesn't require the IR blaster? Doesn't all control go through the HDMI ports?
-
Am I right or wrong in saying that the XBox One doesn't require the IR blaster? Doesn't all control go through the HDMI ports?
It looks like it uses IR control via the Kinect sensor:
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/live-tv/troubleshoot-oneguide (http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/live-tv/troubleshoot-oneguide)
Relying on control through the HDMI connection would be a recipe for disaster as HDMI control is very inconsistent from device to device and cable boxes aren't likely to be one of the device types to actually get it right.
-
I think for TV to 'work' properly, it needs to mimic an STB as closely as possible (I do realize MC can do some of these already):
There's quite a bit more that's missing and a lot of it revolves around capabilities to setup scheduled recordings using searches / wishlists / series recordings. One specific example I've been using is the ability to record hockey games for my home team, something that can be easily done in Windows Media Center, but is currently not possible in JRiver without getting a LOT of extra recordings that I don't want.
For this example, in WMC, you setup a keyword search for ie: "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins At", choose a category (Sports -> Hockey), tell it to record new shows, give preference to HD channels, and record 90 minutes extra (for games that go into overtime). This keyword search gets all the Boston Bruins games (both home and away) and doesn't get much that I don't want, just an occasional replay on the NHL Network for recent games.
The closest search I can setup in MC either misses a lot of the games or records all sorts of related stuff (classic games or specials that happen to have "Boston Bruins" in the name, for example). It so far off that it really isn't usable, unfortunately. I've had similar issues setting up recordings for some other shows, but this is probably the best example.
If JRiver can get around to addressing this, I could probably switch from WMC for TV duties.
IMO, this is actually more important than redoing the initial setup. While I agree that the current setup process might be difficult to use and may discourage some users from using the feature, it does work. But the recording functionality limitations don't have any sort of workaround that I'm aware of (setting up each recording manually isn't an option), which makes the TV feature unusable to people who need the type of series recording functionality that I'm describing.
-
There's quite a bit more that's missing and a lot of it revolves around capabilities to setup scheduled recordings
Yeah, scheduling, series' link etc. are all mega important too.
-
There's quite a bit more that's missing and a lot of it revolves around capabilities to setup scheduled recordings using searches / wishlists / series recordings. One specific example I've been using is the ability to record hockey games for my home team, something that can be easily done in Windows Media Center, but is currently not possible in JRiver without getting a LOT of extra recordings that I don't want.
The reason that WMC does this so well in America, and not everywhere else by the way, is that WMC has access to a very good Electronic Program Guide (EPG), with very good, consistent data. Without that quality of data, WMC fails in exactly the way you describe.
Here in Australia I am sourcing my EPG OTA, from the broadcasters. It is not very good data, and is completely inconsistent.
For example, I record MotoGP races. All season the program title has started with the term "MotoGP 2014", until the race came to Australia, then it was something like "Phillip Island Race" or similar. No year mentioned. I don't think it even said MotoGP in the title, which is what MC, and WMC use to select a program to record. To add insult to this poor performance from the broadcasters, rebroadcasts of the race typically had completely different titles, so often they got recorded as well. MC couldn't identify them as repeats/reruns.
In your example every game you want to record would have to have the term "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins At" in the title. The probability of that happening in Australia is about zero. But also, each game would have to be tagged with a category of "Sport" and a sub-category of "Hockey." The only sport that gets a category in my EPG is one fishing program. It gets "Sport" and "Fishing." That's it, and we have a lot of sport on our FTA TV.
Recently a few of the broadcasters started putting both the Title and Subtitle in the Title field, plus the Subtitle in the Subtitle field. So each new recording became a new series according to MC, as it had a series name of "Title: Subtitle." That is not MC's fault. It is poor EPG data. I have had to spend far too much time cleaning up the mess this EPG data creates. I could fix this, but I would need complex equations in the recording tagging section on each recording rule to make it happen, and I haven't had time for that.
So if you have that data in your EPG, you are one of the blessed. A lot of people don't get that data.
I can buy an EPG in Australia with better data, for about $100 per year. It is a curated EPG, with the data cleaned up and extra information added. The EPG provider also provides a range of value added services, but they only work on hardware that has been modified to use the services, and on WMC, although only on WMC because they wrote an application that loads WMC specifically. All the work is done outside WMC, and programs to watch are loaded into WMC.
Would you pay $100 a year to ensure that your hockey games get recorded correctly? Well, I used to, when I used WMC and before that a PVR, because they could use at least some of the extra data.
Yeah, scheduling, series' link etc. are all mega important too.
Series Link functionality is a different thing all together, and almost always depends on the EPG having a unique Program and/or Series ID. Of course the software or device doing the recording needs to understand and be able to use the Program ID, and at the moment MC can't do that. Even in America some hardware manufacturers provide custom EPG to their users with the Program ID added, to enable Series Link functionality to work. JRiver isn't in the game of providing EPG data, and shouldn't be.
The $100 EPG I mentioned above did include a Program ID, but it was a proprietary numbering scheme added by the EPG provider, as there wasn't a suitable alternative which included Australian content.
However I agree that JRiver should do a whole lot better in their identification of programs in the EPG, and use of the data that is available. MC should be able to look up programs on thetvdb.com (and maybe other sites) by series name and episode title for example, and having that information, add tags such as Season number, Episode Number, Category, Sub-category, Program ID, Genre, Rating, etc., probably even allow the user to define which tags get updated and which don't, maybe even how they get updated. (For example Australian Rating values shouldn't be overwritten by American values.) Then it should be able to use that data for selecting programs to record. But all of that depends on the data being available somewhere, and it isn't always available for new programs, or "once off" programs like sport events.
IMO, this is actually more important than redoing the initial setup.
While this is true for me as well, I understand that the only way we are going to get more features and better support for such functionality is if JRiver has more, lots more, MC customers. If 80% of the people who try to set up MC give up thinking it is just too hard, then this isn't going to happen. So making the setup much easier is the first step to getting more users, and hence better functionality.
-
The reason that WMC does this so well in America, and not everywhere else by the way, is that WMC has access to a very good Electronic Program Guide (EPG), with very good, consistent data. Without that quality of data, WMC fails in exactly the way you describe.
It should go without saying that any keyword/series recording functionality is going to be limited by how good the guide data is. But here in the US, good guide data isn't exactly a rarity and any product that includes guide data really has no excuse not to have pretty good data to work with.
I'm not sure where MC gets it's program data from in the US, but there are plenty of good sources for program data here. Unless MC makes better use of the data that IS available, the quality of the data is somewhat moot.
In your example every game you want to record would have to have the term "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins At" in the title. The probability of that happening in Australia is about zero. But also, each game would have to be tagged with a category of "Sport" and a sub-category of "Hockey." The only sport that gets a category in my EPG is one fishing program. It gets "Sport" and "Fishing." That's it, and we have a lot of sport on our FTA TV.
All the games have either "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins At {OpponentTeamName}" or "NHL Hockey {OpponentTeamName} At Boston Bruins" in the titles, the guide data is actually pretty good that way (both in WMC and in MC from what I've seen). In another thread, JimH mentioned that a keyword search had recently been added for setting up recordings, but I'm using the latest release and haven't been able to find that feature and don't see it listed in the release notes. So MC really doesn't have any chance of doing a good job replacing this type of functionality that WMC does well, regardless of how good the guide data is.
Would you pay $100 a year to ensure that your hockey games get recorded correctly?
Yes, I would pay $100 a year if that's what it would take to get the combination of quality guide data and better use of it in MC. But this isn't just about hockey games, that was just one specific example that I though would get the point across as it's a bit more complex in some ways than a typical series recording.
-
Yeah, I saw the thread where Jim mentioned Keyword searching, and went looking as you did. Nothing. I don't know what he was referring to. Maybe something that is upcoming?
I think MC gets its EPG data in the USA from the same source as WMC. From what I have read, there aren't that many original sources that can be used on PVRs, HTPC and so on. They all seem to start with the one source.
Also I completely agree that MC needs to do better with the data it gets in the EPG, and needs far, far better program selection rules/options for series subscriptions. The fact you can't say "record this program from one or more channels, but only once, and give preference to a HD channel" shows the limitations. I had that capability in the software I used with my old Topfield PVR, and that functionality was provided as soon as HD channels became available.
Just quietly, given how poor the OTA EPG is here, I would pay $100 per year again if the added value functionality that service provided was integrated into MC. I've asked both parties about that, but neither showed interest.
-
Just quietly, given how poor the OTA EPG is here, I would pay $100 per year again if the added value functionality that service provided was integrated into MC. I've asked both parties about that, but neither showed interest.
The problem with that is that there are very few users who are willing to pay anything for EPG data.
When I was working on the accessDTV software, we had to come up with a new source for EPG data basically because accessDTV went belly-up due to a lawsuit (they were suing a big company over intellectual property and put themselves out of business in the process - they probably would have been much better off financially walking away from it, even if they were right). Some of the options for good EPG data would have cost people something like $20 a year and that was $20 more than many of them were willing to spend. We ended up going with Schedules Direct, which was difficult to deal with because accessDTV was a commercial product despite the software being a volunteer effort at that point.
-
The problem with that is that there are very few users who are willing to pay anything for EPG data.
Which is why IceTV here in Australia, the provider I mentioned above, is still struggling to get the critical mass of customers they need to be really successful. I have to be grateful to them though, as they fought and won the IP challenge broadcasters started against them, through three levels of our legal system, and basically forced the broadcasters to start providing at least some barely usable EPG data OTA.
Schedules Direct used to use Zap2it data, owned by Tribune Media Services, which is the single original source of data I was talking about earlier. It seems Schedules Direct have now moved from Zap2it and are providing their own feed. I wonder where they are getting that data? Regardless, the EPG environment is changing in the USA as well.
Someone must have done some fancy talking if Schedules Direct allowed a commercial organisation to use their data. I know they were very sensitive about that early on, because it would threaten access to their source of data.
I see you have quite a history with accessDTV. ;) Why don't you write a Whitepaper for JRiver on how scheduled recordings using searches / wishlists / series recordings etc. should be done. We may all benefit from the result.
-
Someone must have done some fancy talking if Schedules Direct allowed a commercial organisation to use their data. I know they were very sensitive about that early on, because it would threaten access to their source of data.
There was definitely a lot of back and forth to convince them to allow us to use their data. Due to NDA issues for some parts of the code (mostly the hardware driver code for the tuner), the owner of accessDTV couldn't make their source code open source, even though development of the DVR software had been taken over by a small group of volunteers. What we were able to work out was to write a guide data plugin interface for accessDTV and then a separate program that would download and process the EPG data from Schedules Direct. The Schedules Direct group was actually pretty reasonable about it and understood the situation, they just had to cover themselves because of the agreements they had with the actual owner of the EPG data. AFAIK, there are still some people using the accessDTV hardware and software as I get monthly reports from SD indicating how many users are active.
I see you have quite a history with accessDTV. ;) Why don't you write a Whitepaper for JRiver on how scheduled recordings using searches / wishlists / series recordings etc. should be done. We may all benefit from the result.
The accessDTV thing was practically a lifetime ago at this point - I stopped working on that around 10 years ago. It was quite a bit of fun, but I'm also glad that it's over because after writing software all day at my day job, it became quite a burden to spend many of my evenings working on the accessDTV software right up till it was time to go to bed.
As I, and several others, have stated, the best thing the JRiver guys can do is to spend some real quality time with WMC to see how it handles all the recording functionality as WMC does quite a few things very well and very few things poorly. And do the same with some of the other options that are out there to see what they do well.
What follows certainly isn't a whitepaper and I suspect that others have already suggested most or perhaps all of this, but here are some thoughts that I hope are helpful:
Make use of the fields in the guide data to handle keyword searches, use season / episode numbers where appropriate, use categories where appropriate, handle the "new show" flag where appropriate, etc. Update the UI to give the user access to make use of these features. Give the user the ability to specify a preference for HD channels. I'd actually extend WMC channel selection options - they let you choose SD preferred, HD preferred, or 1 specific channel. I'd extend that to allow choosing multiple channels as some shows (such as the Hockey example) actually are on different channels during the year (most of the games are on NESN which is a sports channel for the area, but some are on NBCSN, or the local FOX or NBC affiliate - typically game of the week type games). That would allow me to exclude the NHL Network where no games (I care about anyway) are broadcast live, just re-runs.
Though the user should continue to have the ability to tell MC to record shows around a certain time and to only record 1 episode per day, using the guide data more effectively should make it such that those options don't need to be used to get the results you're looking for. I ran into a few cases in the last 6 months where a show had 2 new episodes back-to-back (I believe Falling Skies did this and at least 1 other show too), and that was a bit of an issue to get working well in MC because it came down to getting both episodes but also getting some other repeat episodes I didn't want or having to go in and manually schedule the 2nd episode.
In WMC in addition to setting up a series recording where you select a show (such as CSI) in search results or the guide and tell it to record all episodes (and specify new only, repeats only, or new and repeat), the user can setup wishlist recordings for the following options: Actor Name, Director Name, Movie Title, Program Title, Generic Keyword. Each of these can also have a category specified to narrow the scope of the results. For actors and directors, WMC actually has a database of actors and directors that will auto suggest as you start typing. While that would be ideal, I'd consider it optional, but the user would need to understand that only exact matches to names will happen. Generic Keyword matches all words, but the order doesn't matter (this is what I used for my Hockey example). IMO, Generic Keyword is a must have, while the others would be really nice, but definitely lower priorities. These wishlist recordings don't need any matches in the current guide data - they're just ongoing searches that match shows as they show up in the guide data.
The code to handle all of this really isn't all that complex whether it be a database query to pick programs to record out of a database or C/C# code to find matches in the program guide data. If the guide data isn't available, the user would have to adjust their recording rules accordingly to make the best use they can of the data they have available. For example, if the guide data doesn't have an actor's name field (which should be an array as most programs have more than 1 actor), the user just won't get any matches for an Actor Name recording rule. But generic keyword searches should work for just about anyone and ideally the UI would allow the user to select which fields in the guide data should be used for that search.
WMC does everything, including initial setup, in the 10 foot UI and I'd love to see MC do that too as that's really how I tend to use MC. Though I think it's perfectly acceptable to drop out of the 10 foot UI for the initial setup and things like modifying channel lists as those aren't daily tasks. But anything to do with setting up recordings, seeing the list of upcoming recordings, browsing the guide, etc. really needs to be doable in Theater View.
Oh, and anything WMC does that isn't related to TV probably ought to be ignored as I'm pretty sure MC already does everything else far better than WMC. :)
-
While this is true for me as well, I understand that the only way we are going to get more features and better support for such functionality is if JRiver has more, lots more, MC customers. If 80% of the people who try to set up MC give up thinking it is just too hard, then this isn't going to happen. So making the setup much easier is the first step to getting more users, and hence better functionality.
I agree here. I wonder how many MC users are actually using the Live TV functionality.
I also wonder if JRiver would do better adding something like the XBox One passthrough features, but on a much bigger/better scale, rather than re-inventing the wheel. I understand it's already possible, but in what form?
I know i'd prefer that to having built-in TV functionality because a) I don't like having all my eggs in one basket and b) my STB package is encrypted and can't currently be natively added to a PC.
-
FWIW I use IceTV and find it well worth the money. The data is great. They also have an API that I'd love to see integrated in MC. The problem with OTA data in Oz is that the networks own it themselves, which is what the court case was about. The advantage of using the PTA data would be that Oz networks have to update the data regularly (Pretty much live now with Free view Plus) so if a program runs overtime the guide and recording gets updated. That's something xmltv data just can't do.
-
FWIW I use IceTV and find it well worth the money. The data is great. They also have an API that I'd love to see integrated in MC.
Yes, the data is very good. I'm still having trouble with the OTA EPG data, so I may yet go back to IceTV, but not yet.
I asked about the API and getting together with J River a long time ago. While the CEO, Heinz, was excited about my input, nothing ever came of it, as they put all their effort into the new IceTV PVR.
http://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/windows-7-media-center/29/so-what-is-the-future-of-icetv-interactive-time-to-share/3862/msg18882#msg18882
That new PVR, by the way, still has not been delivered . . . eighteen months later!
http://forum.icetv.com.au/iceforum/general-discussions/1/new-icetv-branded-pvr/3886/135