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Author Topic: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...  (Read 15667 times)

Bartabedian

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Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« on: August 04, 2003, 02:57:17 pm »

...two topics I recently read about but couldn't comment on at the time...

I don't get quick tag at all, or is it even there now? Nila tried to describe it and I was still lost. Here's what I wish it did:

I have tagging turned off 90% of the time because even on my state-of-the-art fastest cpu available, it's agonizingly slow to do anything to the tags. 10% of the time I use it for various tagging duties and I wish quick tag was the function that turned it on and off, as I'm tired of going to options\general to change this each time. I'd love to select a bunch of flies, hit quick tag, make the changes, then done. Tags change this one time, but tagging remains off in the options.

Audio Analysis: This still has that "do more than 100 files and it'll probably err and quit" problem. What I do is after sending files to PN, then run AA on those files while they play. I'd take a play menu item that is "send to AA then PN" or "add to PN then Analyze" function.

Just some thoughts, hope there not "too late" thoughts...
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nila

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2003, 01:09:49 am »

Warren,

The tagging being slow is to do with it having to re-write the mp3's after the tag data chages. Quick tagging is to do with tagging the files - not deciding if the tags are written to the db or to the files.

From what I've gathered, v2 tags are saved at the beginning of the file and so the whole file has to be re-written after this is changed. v1 tags are at the end of the file and so are a lot faster to change.

If you want to speed up tagging - isntead of turning of tagging globally - go to tools/plug-in manager/input/mp3 - disable just v2 tags and leave v1 tags enabled.

That way your files will still be getting tagged somewhat even if not fully but it should be a lot faster.

Be aware though that v1 tags mean that only default fields will be updated, not any of the extended ones or ones you create.


What u then do every now and then is just right click on your files and chose: Update files from library.

This will then get all your tags in your files up to the same point that your library tags are at.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2003, 05:29:09 am »

Thanks for the suggestion Nila, I'll give it a try...

...I still wish I had a way of doing a fast global tag edit though, as the tagging in MC is remarkably unresponsive yet a necessary evil at times. Especially using the beta's (as you well know!) can be quite dangerous to your tags, I usually leave it off until the rare occasion in which I want to update the tags, and the "update tags from..." item won't work unless tagging is on (another thing I don't quite understand, I'd like to have tagging off but still be able to chose files and say "update tags from").

All my files go through T&R before ever being imported into MC and they tag very quickly, about 4 to 5 times faster than MC and it's writing v1 and v2 simultaneously, so for now it's worth it to go through the pain of opening a different prog to tag.
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2003, 05:39:03 am »

You're Audio Analysis problem is most likely due to trying to analyze them and play them at the same time. Don't do that. Just analyze them. Then play them later.

And I'm not sure I even understand your first question. Are you saying that you only store file information in the database, and not in the file tags themselves? If so, then I think there's a basic misunderstanding on your part about what QuickTag (now called TaggingMode) does. It has nothing to do with whether or not MC stores data in the tags. It's just another way of editting of that information.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2003, 05:48:50 am »

Quote
You're Audio Analysis problem is most likely due to trying to analyze them and play them at the same time. Don't do that. Just analyze them. Then play them later.


Actually, I don't have a problem with this setup, it's when I try to analyze a large amount of files (mostly without MC playing) that the problems occur. But playing and analyzing simultaneously works quite well on a 3 or 4 album playlist, I just wish there was a one stroke click to make it happen.

Quote
And I'm not sure I even understand your first question. Are you saying that you only store file information in the database, and not in the file tags themselves? If so, then I think there's a basic misunderstanding on your part about what QuickTag (now called TaggingMode) does. It has nothing to do with whether or not MC stores data in the tags. It's just another way of editting of that information.


Yes, a misunderstanding for sure, and I still don't get QT or TM at all, just don't know what the hell it means at all, seems like a fancy-pants do-nothing feature currently. What I WISH it did, is give me "quick" global tag editing. As far as what it does, I've been stumped from the start.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2003, 06:03:24 am »

Quote
Warren - if your finding MC a lot slower at tagging than other app's - post it as a bug in the build thread and I'm sure Matt will take a look at it - just keep posting it until it's fixed to remind him.


I've reported this many many times many months ago, and it seemed like it was falling on deaf ears, so I gave up. My biggest problem is my 1394 drives, in which I guess there is a serious caching bottleneck when tagging with MC, but every other tag prog I've used is 4 to 5 times faster doing the exact same tag functions on those drives, even just changing the year value MC is sooooooo slooooow, if I had any hair left, I'd pull it out, again!

And I've got a P4 3.06G cpu with 1G of RAM, a system that smokes doing everything but tagging in MC. But as stated b4, I don't think this is any issue that JRiver really cares about, I'm not taking it personally, it just doesn't seem like they have any intention of addressing it. The problem is obviously the way their tags are written, and I guess they are happy with it as is.
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2003, 06:15:46 am »

Quote
As far as what it does, I've been stumped from the start.


Well, I've typed up step-by-step examples to illustrate how it works so many times now, that I'm really not interested in doing it again. Try reading the threads that gkerber started on it. They're in there.

And I know this doesn't really mean anything, but here's the obligatory "It works on my PC".

I can analyze hundreds of files in one go on my PC without a problem. The only time a file errors out is if it's a file that MC wouldn't be able to analyze even if it was the only one I tried to analyze after a fresh reboot. Some files just have some really wacky data in them. Not saying that's what's causing your problem, though. I'm assuming all of your files analyze correctly as long as you don't try too many at once...
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nila

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2003, 07:34:30 am »

Warren - unless I'm mistaken - your drives - they're firewire???

If so this will be whats differentiating you from everyone else.


And keep posting it as a bug in the builds.

They just use these lists as a ToDo list of what needs fixing and work their way through it fixing it.

If it's not fixed - if you keep posting it they'll eventually get around to it. Just means it might be a bit lower down the priority list.

Also - make sure you mention that they are firewire drives so they can test for this problem with them :)
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2003, 07:51:35 am »

Thanks both doof and Nila for your help and suggestions.

Nila, yes I made it clear they were firewire drives, even got 1 response each from Matt and JimH with a couple questions, then nothing. Bumped, and more nothing, then lots and lots of nothing, and I seemed to be the only one with the problem, so I turned off tagging and forgot about it.

doof, this one AA prob has been reported many times by many others, and the JR guys claim they understand it exists but could never re-create it themselves. When the error happens after a hundred or few hundred files, it skips everything past it. When run again, not even a reboot, just close AA then start AA immediately again on the files it erred on, it runs them smoothly, no problem...
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Matt

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2003, 08:00:51 am »

Tagging Mode

Make sure panes are visible in some Media Library view.  Turn on tagging mode.

Instructions appear on the screen.

Is the problem that people are hiding the panes?
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2003, 08:34:02 am »

Quote
Is the problem that people are hiding the panes?


I know that turned out to be gkerber's problem.
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gkerber

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 08:46:07 am »

Quote


I know that turned out to be gkerber's problem.


Yes, I was hiding the panes, I like the tree better for the way  I use MC.

However, I still don't get the point of quick tag, others have tried to explain how to do it, but what is the point?  I'm not attacking quick tag, if people use it, there is a point, I just never got what is was all for in the first place.

I'm not sure I'm really interested anymore, now that I know it's a pane use only, but I know I am not the only one who is still confused.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 09:10:26 am »

Thank you gkerber for letting me know I'm not alone here, and yea, I've got the panes hidden too...guess that solves that, if it's a pane only function, then I'll never use it, but if others do, more power(user) to them!
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nila

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2003, 09:37:38 am »

I think tagging mode should make the panes appear automatically if they're not there.


The panes are specifically good for list types where you want to be able to select multiple values for a file.


Basically - if you use the properties pane you get a drop down list of all the values and you just choose one - the value you chose apears in the space.

With tagging mode - its basically a big list again except with multiple lines that all appear at the same time. Again you scroll through the list and chose the value and then just check the box instead of selecting it as you do in the properties pane - it's identical in use except you can see more values at once.

EXCEPT where you have list types - there panes differ in that you can select multiple values to attach to a file whereas with the properties pane, due to it's nature, its impossible to select more than one value.

That's the only fundamental difference - if you dont use list types theres no real difference!
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nila

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2003, 01:59:33 am »

I wish that was possible so we could tag list types using the properties box!
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2003, 09:56:55 am »

Even then it's not impossible. You just have to enter the values you want in by hand, and use semi-colons in between.

Not pretty and fraught with problems, but it works.
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gpvillamil

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2003, 07:41:25 am »

I also have no idea at all of what Quick Tag does. If it's been explained so many times, please post a link to a definitive explanation.

The help file in the program doesn't seem to have any info (9.1.226), and a search on the forums only turns up this thread.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2003, 08:35:43 am »

Oh Oh Oh, Nila, epiphany here!

I think I get it! It's not unlike T&R in which you can "check" certain values you want updated, fill in the info in one general locale, then hit "write tags" and it does it? Am I close?

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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2003, 10:13:12 am »

Ok. This is the last time I'm going to do this.

Let's say you have a picture of you, your mom & dad, your sister (Barbie) and her husband (Ken), and your dog (Chopper).

You also have a picture of just your mom & dad. And another of just you and Chopper.

MC has the capability of storing a list of people that are in your pictures. So if you wanted to find all pictures with you in them, you could just open a view scheme that uses People as a field. Let's say you chose the People\Places\Events view scheme.

Using MC's panes (this doesn't work if you don't use the panes), you can open the People\Places\Events view scheme and scroll through the People pane until you find your name. Click on it, and the list of pictures will show you every picture with you in it. In the example I made up above, that would be 2 pictures. One of your entire family, and one of just you and Choppper.

If you decide to see all pictures with your mom & dad in it, you'd just click your mother's name, then hold control and click your father's name. Now both names are selected and you will see all the pictures with either your mother or father in them. In the example I gave above, this would list 2 pictures. The one of you and your entire family, and the one of just your mom and dad.

So MC provides a really nice way of searching for photos with certain people in them. But how do you get that list of people entered in such a way that picture 1 has 7 people assigned to it, the second only has 2, and the third only has 2?

That's where Tagging Mode comes in. When you opened up the People\Places\Events view scheme, you noticed a list of names under People, a different list under Places, and yet another list under Events. Ignore Place and Events for now.

Under People you would have:

Barbie
Chopper
Dad
Ken
Me
Mom

With this list you can easily select the names of the people you're interested in, and MC will show you all pictures that have those people in them.

Above the three columns (people\places\events) is a button labeled Tagging Mode. Click it.

If you don't have any pictures selected, MC will display some helpful text where the list of People used to be. Forget about that and just click on one of the pictures.

You'll now notice that where the People column is, you have your list again:

Barbie
Chopper
Dad
Ken
Me
Mom

Only now, they have checkboxes next to their name.

If you select the picture of you and Chopper, you'll see that there is a check in the box next to "Me" and "Chopper".

But what's this? You just noticed that Mom is sitting in the background. You'd never noticed that before. So it's time to add her to this list.

Check the box next to "Mom". You'll now have checks next to "Chopper", "Me", and "Mom". You've just updated the list of people that show up in the picture of you and Chopper.

Click the Tagging Mode button again. The checkboxes disappear from the People column. You're left with just a list of names again.

Click on "Mom".

You'll now notice that rather than just the 2 pictures from before, 3 pictures show up.

The same thing works for any field. You can easily change the name of a band to a different band, reassign a song's genre, or year, or album, or whatever. Just by checking a checkbox. It's just that when dealing lists, that Tagging Mode gets really handy.

For instance, to do what I outlined above with the old File Properties, you'd have to select the picture, go to the People field in File Properties and add ";Mom" to the line that reads "Me;Chopper" so that it reads "Me;Chopper;Mom".

For this example, that may not seem like a big deal, but what if you just got a new photo of you, mom, dad, Ken, Barbie, Chopper, and Lassie? Is it easier to check 7 checkboxes? Or is it easier to type "Me;Mom;Dad;Ken;Barbie;Chopper;Lassie" in the People box for that picture?
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gkerber

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2003, 10:35:02 am »

Quote
Ok. This is the last time I'm going to do this.

Let's say you have a picture of you, your mom & dad, your sister (Barbie) and her husband (Ken), and your dog (Chopper)...

Last time is a charm!  I get it now.  Thanks for your patience.  Still not too sure if I like that feature to have to see the panes all the time, but now I understand what Quick Tag is even for.  Maybe they should put your story in the tutorial?

The story would have been more interesting if you'd used Al, Peg, Bud, Kelly and Buck...

But wait, the new build is out, and the panes are gone....
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bjsolem

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2003, 10:47:55 am »

Quote
Ok. This is the last time I'm going to do this.

Let's say you have a picture of you, your mom & dad, your sister (Barbie) and her husband (Ken), and your dog (Chopper).

You also have a picture of just your mom & dad. And another of just you and Chopper.

MC has the capability of storing a list of people that are in your pictures. So if you wanted to find all pictures with you in them, you could just open a view scheme that uses People as a field. Let's say you chose the People\Places\Events view scheme.

Using MC's panes (this doesn't work if you don't use the panes), you can open the People\Places\Events view scheme and scroll through the People pane until you find your name. Click on it, and the list of pictures will show you every picture with you in it. In the example I made up above, that would be 2 pictures. One of your entire family, and one of just you and Choppper.

If you decide to see all pictures with your mom & dad in it, you'd just click your mother's name, then hold control and click your father's name. Now both names are selected and you will see all the pictures with either your mother or father in them. In the example I gave above, this would list 2 pictures. The one of you and your entire family, and the one of just your mom and dad.

So MC provides a really nice way of searching for photos with certain people in them. But how do you get that list of people entered in such a way that picture 1 has 7 people assigned to it, the second only has 2, and the third only has 2?

That's where Tagging Mode comes in. When you opened up the People\Places\Events view scheme, you noticed a list of names under People, a different list under Places, and yet another list under Events. Ignore Place and Events for now.

Under People you would have:

Barbie
Chopper
Dad
Ken
Me
Mom

With this list you can easily select the names of the people you're interested in, and MC will show you all pictures that have those people in them.

Above the three columns (people\places\events) is a button labeled Tagging Mode. Click it.

If you don't have any pictures selected, MC will display some helpful text where the list of People used to be. Forget about that and just click on one of the pictures.

You'll now notice that where the People column is, you have your list again:

Barbie
Chopper
Dad
Ken
Me
Mom

Only now, they have checkboxes next to their name.

If you select the picture of you and Chopper, you'll see that there is a check in the box next to "Me" and "Chopper".

But what's this? You just noticed that Mom is sitting in the background. You'd never noticed that before. So it's time to add her to this list.

Check the box next to "Mom". You'll now have checks next to "Chopper", "Me", and "Mom". You've just updated the list of people that show up in the picture of you and Chopper.

Click the Tagging Mode button again. The checkboxes disappear from the People column. You're left with just a list of names again.

Click on "Mom".

You'll now notice that rather than just the 2 pictures from before, 3 pictures show up.

The same thing works for any field. You can easily change the name of a band to a different band, reassign a song's genre, or year, or album, or whatever. Just by checking a checkbox. It's just that when dealing lists, that Tagging Mode gets really handy.

For instance, to do what I outlined above with the old File Properties, you'd have to select the picture, go to the People field in File Properties and add ";Mom" to the line that reads "Me;Chopper" so that it reads "Me;Chopper;Mom".

For this example, that may not seem like a big deal, but what if you just got a new photo of you, mom, dad, Ken, Barbie, Chopper, and Lassie? Is it easier to check 7 checkboxes? Or is it easier to type "Me;Mom;Dad;Ken;Barbie;Chopper;Lassie" in the People box for that picture?


Hey Jim - Since this is the last time Doof is going to do this, maybe it should be copied to a tips and tricks forum, before it gets lost.......

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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2003, 10:55:01 am »

Ok, after the pictures of me and my mom and dad, then what happens? :-/
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JimH

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2003, 10:55:29 am »

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V-Man

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2003, 04:49:08 am »

Doof, can you please explain what Quick Tagging is?

<ducks>
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2003, 05:43:29 am »

I'm gonna hurt somebody...  >:(

hehe
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2003, 08:48:31 am »

I still wish it did what I hoped it did, turn on and off tagging mode. Can I get a second on this?

And I take it from your example that this feature is really only helpful to a db of images?
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2003, 09:50:26 am »

I'm sure what you mean by "turning on and off tagging mode"

Tagging Mode is exactly what I just explained above.

And no, it's not just for images. You can use it to change the tags of any file in MC. It's just that it really becomes very useful when dealing with list type database fields, which images use quite frequently.

You could use it to assign multiple Moods to a single song, for instance. Or just change the genre from Rock to Pop. All with an easy click on a checkbox.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2003, 11:46:58 am »

Quote
I'm sure what you mean by "turning on and off tagging mode"

Tagging Mode is exactly what I just explained above.

And no, it's not just for images. You can use it to change the tags of any file in MC. It's just that it really becomes very useful when dealing with list type database fields, which images use quite frequently.

You could use it to assign multiple Moods to a single song, for instance. Or just change the genre from Rock to Pop. All with an easy click on a checkbox.


Tagging mode to me is tagging mode, I mean, c'mon, tagging mode. :P

In the options|General tab, I've usually got "update tags when file info changes" unchecked. This is -tagging mode off- to me, because when I make changes now to fields they don't update in the tags, just the current MC db. If the box were checked, then hence tagging mode is on, and changes made do reflect in the tags. I wish I could turn that on and off quickly, or a quick tag function.

As it stands now, this "mode" is a misnomer, because were I to use this function currently, it would go into "tagging mode" and I can update a bunch of genre's or moods as you stated, but the changes won't actually be reflected in my tags because that "mode" is off. Whew. I'm dizzy...

...I'll play around with that "other" tagging mode, see if I can make it do something good for me, maybe I'll be a convert...
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Doof

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2003, 12:03:09 pm »

All the option that you're talking about does is determine where the information is stored. Inside the file and database, or just in the database.

You're still tagging your media, you're just not storing it inside the files.

So Tagging Mode is just another way of tagging your media. The checkbox you mention just determines how that information is stored.

I can't understand why'd you want to be able to quickly switch between storing data in the files or just in the database. I can sort of understand you wanting to not update your file's tags, even though if your database ever got horked you'd be faced with having to redo everything, but I can't understand your desire to want some quick way to switch.
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Bartabedian

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Re: Quick Tag and Audio Analysis...
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2003, 12:17:12 pm »

Quote
...but I can't understand your desire to want some quick way to switch.


It's because the file tagging updates on my 1394 drives is a snail crossing molasses, as in bloody slow. Even when changing a year value, it just crawls. I moved MC from a P3 600E to this P4 3.06G because of this, and it's just as stinkin' slow, so it's those drives and MC, because when I use T&R its quite speedy. I know, it has something to do with the way MC's tags are written. Every once in a while, I turn the tagging on as it works fine on some of my other drives. Sorry, don't mean to confuse anyone...
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