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[phelt]

I noticed in the Media Center 9.1.214 beta available thread that Windows Media is now the default encoder. Is this just for video, or audio or both?

I'm not trying to start a flame war, or any kind of anti-MS tirade, or any anti-DRM rant, but I have to say this: I cannot recommend any application that defaults to WM for audio. I have seen too many folks have problems with the Windows Media DRM system to endorse or recommend its use as a primary or default audio encoder.

I love MC and have recommended it to a number of folks, but that may be at an end    If anyone has constructive comments to allay my concerns, I would be glad to hear them.

[JimH]

...I have to say this: I cannot recommend any application that defaults to WM for audio.

Hi phelt,
What encoder should MC use by default?

Jim

[Rands]

It's a default not a political statement.  Go into the options, change it to what you want.  Done.

[Buckaroo]

I agree that the current WM9 DRM implementation leaves a great deal to be desired. However, there are no DRM restrictions with ripped files, so this is a non issue.

At the end of the day, I think that WM9's audio format is the best combination of size, quality and portability, so I personally applaud the decision. Ogg-Vorbis is a great Codec, but IMHO just to limiting in terms of portability (and I still think VBR 2-pass WM9 sounds better at a given data rate).

Of course, as has been mentioned, if you don't like it, you can always change the settings. Dropping MC because it now defaults to WMA is like throwing the entire family out with the bath water.

[MachineHead]

There is an issue when it tries to send out a data packet upon installation. If you had a firewall enabled you would have seen this. No default is better than this.

[phelt]

JimH: I would have to say MP3. Since interoperation with portables seems to be one of MC's primary selling points (I base this on the Media Center web pages) that would seem to be a logical format. I'm not aware of any portable digital players that do not support MP3 (other than some proprietary Sony stuff which I ignore). And, while MC has a great number of features, MP3 is supported by a plethora of third-party apps, in case one is needed. Last, a number of my friends have gotten car CD players which support MP3 discs. I don't know if any of these support WM, but I don't think they do.

Rands: I'm used to modifying program options all day long - not that I like it, but I'm used to it   My statement was related to recommendations to other users; users who are often less likely to be comfortable with modifying encoder options (if they even know they are there). And regardless of their experience level many (most?) users are likely to test primary features like ripping without first reviewing the help files or settings. The bottom line for me is that I don't want to get phone calls or emails if DRM gets in the way or causes problems for folks.

Buckaroo:

I agree that the current WM9 DRM implementation leaves a great deal to be desired. However, there are no DRM restrictions with ripped files, so this is a non issue.

If that's the case, that's great to hear.
As to the quality of WM9 audio, I think they've done an admirable job - the same goes for WM video. I don't necessarily agree re. the portability.

Of course, as has been mentioned, if you don't like it, you can always change the settings. Dropping MC because it now defaults to WMA is like throwing the entire family out with the bath water.

I never said that I was dropping MC, just that I could not recommend it to other people if DRM was going to be an issue. I've had several instances where friends have run into problem with WMP and DRM issues. But if you are correct about the default absence of DRM in WM files ripped by MC, this is as you say a non-issue.

[phelt]

There is an issue when it tries to send out a data packet upon installation. If you had a firewall enabled you would have seen this. No default is better than this.

Could you please give more detail as to this occurence? ie. is it the install of the WM encoder during the MC install, or something else? I've seen this with a few program installs and launches lately. Often it appears that the Windows Installer or application is seeking confirmation of a security certificate. That happened with one version of the ATI Catalyst drivers - everytime I went into advanced display properties it was throwing outbound packets to crl.microsoft.com. Dunno if it still does that - I firewalled it and forgot about it. Another address used for package verification is crl.verisign.com, IIRC.

[Doof]

I think it was a joke.

[MachineHead]

It wasn't a joke. This happened after installing tonights build. Maybe you already have WMP 9 installed. I don't. And I do not want to install it. Ever.

MC should have a choice other than M$ stuff. And just for my own edification, when did you open your arms for them? They never did you guys any great favors if I recall correctly. Wasn't getting their SDK as much fun as a root canal?

[Buckaroo]

It wasn't a joke. This happened after installing tonights build. Maybe you already have WMP 9 installed. I don't. And I do not want to install it. Ever.

MC should have a choice other than M$ stuff. And just for my own edification, when did you open your arms for them? They never did you guys any great favors if I recall correctly. Wasn't getting their SDK as much fun as a root canal?

Dude, what OS are you running, Windows?

... Ok, Ok, I'll avoid the rant I was about to get into- I've already done it elsewhere.

However, I've worked with the media folks at M$, Apple and Fraunhoffer (among others) and I can tell you that the WM9 folks have never been anything but forthright and magnanimous.

I've got an e-mail into some friends, and I'll get to the bottom of the ping you saw. I'll bet it's not nearly as invasive as you suggest.

[Buckaroo]

Phelt-
Do a search on WMA at crutchfield.com- I think you'll be surprised at how many head units support the format. At the time of my last survey about a year ago, about 40% of all MP3 players also supported WMA.

[JC]

There is an issue when it tries to send out a data packet upon installation. If you had a firewall enabled you would have seen this. No default is better than this.

I saw this ping also. My firewall caught it.

[Buckaroo]

Guys-
At what point in the installation does the ping happen? I know that the full version automatically updates the media guide at the end of the install, although I doubt that's the case here.

[MachineHead]

Guys-
At what point in the installation does the ping happen? I know that the full version automatically updates the media guide at the end of the install, although I doubt that's the case here.

When the encoders are being installed.

[nila]

I dont particularly want WM as the default format either.

I say stick to LAME - nice tiny little encoder that's less than 1/4 of a meg. NO DRM, open source, all kinds of reasons to stick to it.

I'd say if MC was going to push any format as standard it should be ogg for it's open source and quality, number of channels supported etc.


Due to compatibility with players though I say mp3 is the best choice - it's pretty much the standard in digital music at present - FAR more so than WM.

And I personally change any system I come accross from using WM to encode with (changed all my families and friends any time I go visit them) and change it to mp3.
Right now WM might not force DRM into the files - but it has it built in which means they could EASILY start doing it in future and sure us techies will know about it and stop using it and freak out but your average user wont and they'll suddenly start having DRM active in their files.

I say mp3 if u want most compatibility and to stick with the mainstream accepted format or ogg if u want to push a new standard with better quality.

[Raistlin2000]

Two possibilties:

1.) MP3 as being the most supported standard on standalones.

2.) Ogg as being the best compressor with good quality around.

Just my 2 cents
Raist

[LonWar]

As long as I can change it back to MP3 I couldn't care less.

Out of curiosity though, What is the big deal?? If you want to use wma you leave it, If you don't want to use it change it in options??

Not sure why all the hubbb

[nila]

It means people first installing it are going to be put on WM as the standard - basically pushing WM format and moving them all onto it (unless they know what they're doing).


Just one point - this could raise extra support if beginners rip songs (now to WMA), then try to copy them to portables and then start complaining that they're not working (they were used to it ripping them to mp3 and might not be aware that its now no longer doing that and that their players dont support WMA).

[LonWar]

I really can't see anyone loading this program and not going through the options before starting.

I am not sure that will be an issue.

[nila]

imjustagamer,

Maybe you do because your an advanced/semi-advanced computer user but I know a LOT of people that dont.
I've used other peoples computers and asked them what format/quality they were ripping at and they said they weren't sure.
These were people who had been using computers for 5+ years to a competant level.
They just wanted it to work and weren't too bothered with the details.

[Marko]

imjustagamer,

Maybe you do because your an advanced/semi-advanced computer user but I know a LOT of people that dont.
I've used other peoples computers and asked them what format/quality they were ripping at and they said they weren't sure.
These were people who had been using computers for 5+ years to a competant level.
They just wanted it to work and weren't too bothered with the details.

You got that right Nila. I actually had to talk a m8 through upping the mp3 quality settings before he ripped a cd for me using musicmatch, and shortly after that, he phoned me back coz he couldn't find the files on his harddrive!!!! MM plays 'em, so he doesn't care/is not interested where the actual files are as long as they're in his library. His HD is a mess, but he's happy

I've also had to firewall the outgoing connection during the M$ codec installation, and have been unable to find out what it is or why. I don't like it. one of the things that I really applaud MC for is that it isn't "spyware". Perhaps the access request is really very innocent, but it comes without warning or explanation, which means that non-firewalled systems just allow the info, whatever it might be, to just march off the system without them even being aware of it.
I maybe wouldn't mind quite so much if the codecs would handle a streaming .wma with ASIO enabled, but they can't do that without a very ugly crash ensuing.

As for it being the default encoder....
mho, for what is worth, is that the default should be mp3, 128kbps, normal quality.
Why use microsoft's proprietry format as the default for an independant app?
mp3 should be the default. I still remember being surprised that it wasn't the 1st time I ever tried MJ/MC.

-marko

[KingSparta]

Well has anyone asked why Media Center went from MP3 to OGG (I think) then To Windows Media?

There must be an advantage for J River to do this. If so then it would be wise to do so.

The new windows VBR encoder Is allot better than MP3

[Buckaroo]

Another note-
No MP3-based encoder is truely open source. Although MP3 was created by a standards committee (ISO's Motion Picture Experts Group) most of the codec components are proprietary. The lion's share of IP is owned by Fraunhofer, who really wants licensing fees.

Ogg Vorbis is, on the other hand, more or less open source and to my ears is somewhere between MP3 and WMA (assuming VBR for all) in quality.

I continue to contend that WMA (with v.9 encoders) is the best all around codec (size v. quality v. portability), and challenge anyone who's done 2-pass VBR encodes to show me up.

(note- changes made to post at 11:51 AM PST)

[Doof]

Slow day around here?

[nila]

Isn't LAME open source?

[Buckaroo]

Isn't LAME open source?

Sorta. The LAME project is open source (http://lame.sourceforge.net/) but much of the the MP3 encode and decode is still technically proprietary (http://web.media.mit.edu/~eds/mpeg-patents-faq ). Frankly, the MP3 rights situation is something of a mess- ask any of the companies Fraunhofer has served.

[nameless]

The MC9 installer could be made to ask the user what the default encoder should be.  If the install packager was robust enough, there could even be a brief explanation of the pros and cons of each format.  Problem solved!

MC9 could also have no default, but instead prompt the user the first time an attempt was made to use an encoder--at which time, obviously, a selection would have to be made.

As for the mystical "ping" I keep reading about, I'd love for someone to capture the packets that are being sent, and make the contents available.  I'll do it myself next time I upgrade MC 9.1 (assuming that I remember, and also that the "ping" will occur for me).