Topic: Volume Levelling - Dangerous issue with some silent tracks (Read 2242 times)

stewart_pk · « **on:** May 07, 2019, 08:54:38 pm »

As per the attached screen shot MC applied +39db from Volume Leveling for the album TOOL Undertow.
This nearly broke my speakers when playing it.

It has occurred because tracks 10 through to 68 are short moments of silence.
Once I removed these tracks about -8db of Volume Leveling was applied instead of +39db

Please fix!

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2019, 09:22:23 pm »

Would you be able to make a copy of the album available to matt at jriver? Thanks.

syndromeofadown · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2019, 10:24:58 pm »

Is there a value for 'Volume Level (R28)' or 'Volume Level (ReplayGain)' tags on your silent tracks?

I have the same album and it plays fine. I even tried with your DSP settings without issue.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #3 on:** May 07, 2019, 10:43:34 pm »

Quote from: syndromeofadown on May 07, 2019, 10:24:58 pm

Is there a value for 'Volume Level (R28)' or 'Volume Level (ReplayGain)' tags on your silent tracks?

I have the same album and it plays fine. I even tried with your DSP settings without issue.

For the silent tracks:

Volume Level (R28) = 47.0 LU
Volume Level (ReplayGain) = 52.00db

stewart_pk · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2019, 10:56:53 pm »

Quote from: Matt on May 07, 2019, 09:22:23 pm

Would you be able to make a copy of the album available to matt at jriver? Thanks.

I could easily email you the silent tracks if that's what you're asking?

But, I just ran the Analyze Audio over the entire album again and now the Volume Level (R28) and Volume Level (ReplayGain) values are both blank.
And now when I play the entire album Volume Leveling is applying -8.3db which is seemingly correct so I presume when they are blank that Volume Leveling ignores them.
I've had this album for quite a while and have not played it for some time.
I can only presume a much older version of MC added those previous values of 47.0 LU and 52.00db which the current version has changed to blank.
I'll run the Analyze Audio routine over my entire library again.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2019, 11:56:41 pm »

I think there is still an issue here.
In the case of TOOL Undertow the silent tracks of 0:01 (1 second) now have a Volume Level (R28) and Volume Level (ReplayGain) of blank.
So, I presume during playback of the entire album any tracks with a blank Volume Level (R28) and Volume Level (ReplayGain) are ignored and thus why it plays back at the correct level now.

But I have found another silent track from a different Artist and Album with Volume Level (R28) = 47.0 LU and Volume Level (ReplayGain) = 52.00db even after just audio analyzing it again recently.
This silent track has a duration of 0:20 (20 seconds) and I presume it's long enough to be analyzed rather than ignored.
Although not as severe as before the entire album is being played too loud presumably because of this one 0:20 (20 seconds) silent track.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2019, 08:37:46 pm »

So, what's the go here? Does anyone need me to send some sample file(s)?

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2019, 06:38:03 am »

Yes, please send samples to matt at jriver along with an explanation of what you think is going wrong. Thanks.

Hendrik · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2019, 06:46:49 am »

Note that if a track is nothing but literally silence, then those results are actually correct. Maybe not what you want, but correct nontheless.

vairulez · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2019, 12:09:24 pm »

i've had the same problem with an album containing 4 seconds silent tracks before a hidden track. I'm glad The volume was not too high or it would have killed my speakers.
Erasing those tracks solved the problem.
May be these silent tracks could be erased at import if detected by the audio analyser ?

stewart_pk · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2019, 08:07:31 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on May 13, 2019, 06:46:49 am

Note that if a track is nothing but literally silence, then those results are actually correct. Maybe not what you want, but correct nontheless.

Yes I understand the Audio Analysis results are correct.
And yes it's not what I want and it should not be what JRiver wants either and that is to potentially damage their end user's speakers.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2019, 08:08:59 pm »

Quote from: Matt on May 13, 2019, 06:38:03 am

Yes, please send samples to matt at jriver along with an explanation of what you think is going wrong. Thanks.

Is that matt at * dot com or just matt at jriver?

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2019, 09:35:58 pm »

If you don't add .com, it won't get there.

Hendrik · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2019, 02:45:34 am »

Quote from: stewart_pk on May 13, 2019, 08:07:31 pm

And yes it's not what I want and it should not be what JRiver wants either and that is to potentially damage their end user's speakers.

No one wants that of course, however I'm still of the opinion that if your PC can output any signal thats so strong that it would damage your speakers, your setup is in danger of exploding every second of every day, and you should do something about that. Turn down the volume on the amplifier if possible, or if not, get a passive attenuator to reduce the absolute max volume to something not-damaging in the analog domain, even if the PC outputs a signal at 100% strength for some reason.

Its important to note that no value in Volume Leveling can make MC output audio louder then 100%. It would just start clipping if it tried that.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2019, 03:12:58 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on May 14, 2019, 02:45:34 am

No one wants that of course, however I'm still of the opinion that if your PC can output any signal thats so strong that it would damage your speakers, your setup is in danger of exploding every second of every day, and you should do something about that. Turn down the volume on the amplifier if possible, or if not, get a passive attenuator to reduce the absolute max volume to something not-damaging in the analog domain, even if the PC outputs a signal at 100% strength for some reason.

Its important to note that no value in Volume Leveling can make MC output audio louder then 100%. It would just start clipping if it tried that.

You make a good point or two here and good to know that MC will not output greater than 100%.

Regardless, volume leveling in practice is expected to work and a silent track of significant length is preventing it from working properly.
It seemingly just needs a bit of a tweak.

swiv3d · « **Reply #15 on:** May 14, 2019, 08:26:30 pm »

I just delete silent tracks, they don't add to my musical experience.

tij · « **Reply #16 on:** May 14, 2019, 08:53:55 pm »

Can you just consider min threshold for dynamic range and peak volume of the track to be “silent track” and not apply Volume leveling to those track by default? User can force change it if it’s wrong, but at least it will save some speakers

stewart_pk · « **Reply #17 on:** May 14, 2019, 10:06:03 pm »

Quote from: swiv3d on May 14, 2019, 08:26:30 pm

I just delete silent tracks, they don't add to my musical experience.

They do to mine.

And the end user shouldn't have to do this.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2019, 09:34:12 am »

Coming next build will have this change:
Changed: Extreme outliers from silence will not be calculated against for volume leveling values.

The silent tracks are basically just ignored instead of factoring into the average.

Thanks everyone for the help on this.

stewart_pk · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2019, 07:45:59 pm »

Quote from: Matt on May 15, 2019, 09:34:12 am

Coming next build will have this change:
Changed: Extreme outliers from silence will not be calculated against for volume leveling values.

The silent tracks are basically just ignored instead of factoring into the average.

Awesome, thanks very much.

vairulez · « **Reply #20 on:** May 17, 2019, 09:25:46 am »

Quote from: Matt on May 15, 2019, 09:34:12 am

Coming next build will have this change:
Changed: Extreme outliers from silence will not be calculated against for volume leveling values.

The silent tracks are basically just ignored instead of factoring into the average.

Thanks everyone for the help on this.

Great.Thanks a lot

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** May 17, 2019, 03:07:45 pm »

Should be available now:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,120733.0.html

Thanks again.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Volume Levelling - Dangerous issue with some silent tracks (Read 2242 times)

swiv3d