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[Thor]

I am exploring JRiver MC to see if it is the right solution for me.  So far everything seems to show me that it is the way I will proceed.  But one topic is extremely important to me...random audio playback shuffling.  How does the shuffle / random function truly work in JRiver?  As this is a critical item for me, I need to understand this before spending my money.

I like to create saved playlists along something similar to Genre, but creating my own Genres if you will.  I often don't agree with the Genres assigned by the public and usually also have more of them.  I then like to pick one of these saved playlists and play them shuffled.  The playlist may have less than a hundred songs in it but could also be as large as well over 1000 songs.  When I play a particular list shuffled on Monday for 1 hour and then do the same thing on Wednesday, I don't want to hear the exact same songs again (that's the whole point of shuffling in my opinion).  I need the shuffling to be truly random every time I select a saved playlist and then choose to play it shuffled.  I really like this feature in my ipod (which I use in my car), but it seems that many apps and programs, just can't do this truly random.  Either they do it random once, but if you don't add or remove a song, the next time has the exact same shuffled order, or the shuffling is weak and follows a pretty obvious pattern.  So my question here is - is the shuffling truly random in JRiver?

Another question as to shuffling.  I read a post here that discusses shuffling playlists.  It seems that the iPod shows the saved playlist in original order but jumps around the playlist (at least it does so when interfaced to my car's built-in screen).  I read here that JRiver actually shuffles the playlist itself around and then sequentially moves through that shuffled list.  But it seems that this shuffled version of the playlists is actually what is shown in "playing now".  Does that mean, the original saved playlist is still intact in the original order if I want to play it non-shuffled a day later (or want to reshuffle it again with hopefully a different random order), or has the actual original saved playlist been modified and only exists in its shuffled format now?

[glynor]

The best thing would be to download the free trial and try it out.  You can use MC for a full 30 days without registering it (no restrictions).

However... I don't think you'll have that problem.

One important point, however, is that you'll want to do the shuffling on "the Lists" (the Smartlists or Views) that you play.  There is also a shuffle button on the UI, which does this to any list (or view) that you play automatically when you play it.  However, and this is where MC differs a bit from other players, once files get added to the Playing Now list, that is the precise track list and order they will play.  You can rearrange the Playing Now list manually, if you want, but it does not continue to "shuffle" as you go, even if you have the Shuffle-Mode button enabled.  That button just makes it so every "view" or "playlist" that you play, will be sent to Playing Now in a shuffled state.  Yes, though, to answer your question, their random seeding works "right" and won't generate identical results each time (I don't know how cryptographically "correct" their random seed source is, though I know they just tweaked it in a recent build for some esoteric reason, in any case, it is sufficiently complex to confuse a human listener).

Now, of course, you can force Playing Now to reshuffle if you want (even just "reshuffle remaining tracks" to exclude anything already played), but... I just wanted to make that distinction clear.  If you play the same Playing Now list (just open MC and hit "play" without picking anything to play), it will continue from where it left off and play the same list each time.

That said...

MC has lots of powerful "shuffle" capabilities.  Check out this thread I contributed to a while back where I explain one of my (many) "auto-shuffling" schemes:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77395.msg524805#msg524805

Also, MC includes a feature called Play Doctor (which I use to extreme ends in that example) that is something-like iTunes Genius (though it actually predates that Apple feature by a bit)...  It uses an internal algorithm to decide what to play based on play history (play counts and skips), ratings, Date Imported, Genre, and all sorts of other metadata.  The cool thing is that it doesn't decide what to Play "Next" until the current track is complete/mostly-complete.  So, it gets smarter as you use it for a particular play session (usually, if you don't confuse its computer-brain).  As you skip past tracks that it chose badly, it "crosses them out" and considers that feedback more heavily for this Play Doctor Session.

It is pretty cool.  You should check it out as you play around.

In any case, with the various "shuffling" and filtering schemes you can apply to both Views and Smartlists in Media Center, including:
~shuffle
~mix
Play Doctor

Not to mention extensive Automation options (including reshuffling Playing Now from the command line, if you need it)...

I don't think you'll be left lacking in your desire.

[Thor]

Thanks glynor, that info helps a lot.  Sounds like JRiver is very versatile in this way which will be very useful to me.

One question though as to what you stated above: "That button just makes it so every "view" or "playlist" that you play, will be sent to Playing Now in a shuffled state."  The created saved playlist though only gets "copied" to Playing Now in a shuffled order, the actual saved playlist is still in its original, non-shuffled order, correct?  In other words, I can pick the same saved playlist again in the future and send it to Playing Now and if I don't shuffle it, it will play back the way it was originally created, in order.

A related question - If I use Gizmo to remotely control JRiver, does it use the JRiver shuffling capabilities or does it do it's own thing (own shuffling mechanism)?

I can't download JRiver yet to try it out, because my setup with which I wish to use it is not up-and-running yet.  I am doing my research ahead of time.  I would rather use the 30-day trial to play with JRiver on the actual setup not with some dummy setup that I could possibly create now.

[glynor]

The created saved playlist though only gets "copied" to Playing Now in a shuffled order, the actual saved playlist is still in its original, non-shuffled order, correct?

Correct.

You can apply Shuffling in the View or Playlist by applying one of those "sort-order" modifications I mentioned (~mix, ~shuffle, etc).  In this case, the "View" or "Playlist" will reshuffle each time you open it (or hit Refresh while viewing the results).  OR, you can enable the "global shuffling" button in the main UI, and then every list you play gets shuffled as it is sent to Playing Now.

And, to be clear, it will be reshuffled each time you "play" the same list.  Playing Now, however, doesn't ever change unless you change it (except for Play Doctor mode, which is weird).  That was the distinction (from iTunes) that I was making above.

But, yes, of course... The Global mode does not modify your views or playlists in any way.

One other minor tip, the Global Shuffle mode is actually a three way switch:

1. Shuffle On
2. Shuffle Automatic
3. Shuffle Off

Shuffle Automatic is a special mode where:

When you play a list, it gets Shuffled as it is added to Playing Now.  Except if you play a view/playlist of tracks all from the same Album in-order.  In that case, it does NOT shuffle and plays the files gapless instead.

Actually quite handy for switching back and forth without having to remember to activate/deactivate the feature all the time.  I generally use my pre-shuffled lists rather than the Global mode, but my wife uses the Auto mode all the time and really likes it.  It is handy for her because she can just open up one of our [Genres] in the main Genre\Artist\Album view, pick whatever song she wants from the list, and it'll shuffle the rest.  But if she wants to hear a particular album, just browse and find that album and play it, without fiddling first.

[glynor]

A related question - If I use Gizmo to remotely control JRiver, does it use the JRiver shuffling capabilities or does it do it's own thing (own shuffling mechanism)?

It uses the built-in system, I believe.

Other third-party products that use the MC database may or may not have their own system.  I'm pretty sure JRemote uses the built-in one, but you'd have to ask over in that thread.

But, if you use a lot of shuffles, I'd just build some ever-changing "pre-shuffled lists" (maybe based on Play Doctor as described in my linked thread, or maybe just using the ~mix modifier).  Those will work right no matter where you play them, and they'll absolutely be reshuffled every time.

[glynor]

One other cool thing I figure I'll mention...

If you use the shuffling features by applying them to a Smartlist, you can even use these to sync ever-changing lists to a handheld.  MC's Handheld Engine allows you to pick from any of your Playlists and automatically sync those contents over to the Handheld.

If you pick a Smartlist that uses ~shuffle or ~mix rules, or a saved Play Doctor list (with a filter), each time you sync the handheld, this list will "repopulate".

I use this extensively in my fancy setup with MC iTunes Syncing for my iDevices.

And, I should add, if you don't understand the distinction I'm making here between "pre-defined views and smartlists" and the "global mode", just yell.  If you've used the "Automatic Playlist things" in most other media managers (including iTunes), it is basically the same thing on super-steroids.  These "filters" can be applied to any View that you create, and saved.  You can make as many different views in MC as you want (well, there might be some kind of 32-bit integer related limit with millions of views/lists, but no normal human is ever going to hit it).

[Thor]

Wow, lots of information and capabilities here.  Looks like it does everything I want and then some.  Thanks again.

Next step for me on this will be to install JRiver and play with it.  At that time I might need a bit more help and clarifications if I get stuck understanding the features.