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[JimH]

Late last week, I asked what you thought about music services.  The thread is here:

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=MediaCenter;action=display;num=1065224287

But the reason for this post is to ask what you see and hear about the "underground" music sharing that has been going on.  I mean the Napster-like services like Kazaa.

Without saying whether you're involved, and (please) without bashing the record labels or the RIAA, what do you hear about the current state of affairs?  Are the services alive and well?  Growing?  Shrinking?  

Will they be replaced by commercial services?

[ChicoSelfs]

I think that is equal but instead of focus in one p2p application people tend to use other less known applications. The albums in illegal sites are steal going out even before street release. Some users have already been intimidated by isp's not because of music but also movies do they stop sharing? Some yes other simple denied and other change isp. Maybe this will end some day and people go to legal music services but only when the cd price get's more "friendly" and also music online services have better quality and cheap files to download.

[kiwi]

There's still a very large contingent of 18-22 year olds "sharing" music with high bandwidth and too much free time on their hands and who think of themselves as invincible (college students).  




My biggest problem is that the songs are usually of quite poor quality.  It takes a lot of effort to get good quality songs.

[dmets]

Whether digital distribution is legal/illegal - it isn't the right terminology...  Those are loaded words used to inflame and mislead the public.  

I think the problem boils down to Music Labels (the entities that as members make up the RIAA).  They don't understand what they do or sell....  Think of them as the Anti-Walmart (Walmart knows exactly how many of each widget they sell, AND WHY – further they have revolutionized the field – yes I am skipping the labor negatives, but bear with me).

Think about it.  For years the Labels have controlled dominated – EXCLUSIVELY the recording, financing, distribution and marketing of music.  

These are actually very different aspects of the same business.   Recently the digital recording revolution and the digital distribution models (both “for profit” and questionable “shared”) have changed irrevocably the very business that the labels are in.  

When distribution and recording were expensive propositions - IE: Recording Studio building and Studio Rental Time, Mastering, Physical Medial Pressing, Physical Media warehousing/distribution to retail, etc...  
Financing of music projects was not only important - without Major Label bankrolling - it was impossible to have a career in music.  It was just too expensive.  

Now, anyone with a Powerbook, and a room with decent acoustics can "record" and anyone with an ISP or CD Burner can "distribute."  Making the expense of creation and distribution effectively cost next to nothing….

This can't be misunderstood - this is the musical equivilent to the Guttenberg Printing Press.   A complete revolution in how musical compositions/recordings are made and distributed.  

So that took away 3 of the 4 areas that Music labels were dominant in.  Without the great expense of recording and distribution – there is no need for financing.  Financing is what caused the virtual-slavery of recording artists to Labels.  Most artists were so upside down they couldn’t(and still can’t) afford to piss off the labels.

Now that leaves promotion/marketing - something that traditionally the labels left up to journalists, radio stations and music mags...   (arguably puppets for the labels - remember the golden rule - those with the gold rule).

Now, the house of cards has fallen....   How will the labels change business models/Adapt to the changed circumstances?   They will have to, or perish.  There is no doubt about it.  They are fighting tooth and nail (even suing their own customers) in order to try and hold on to an obsolete business model.  

The only people who benefit from the old physical distribution model, are the music executives who are now obsolete.   Much like the dinosaurs, these individuals were feared, revered and had more power over music in the world than anyone should.  Now - they are looking for scraps to survive - the Asteroid has impacted and they are realizing that their time is done.  They are doing whatever, darn the consequences to keep a hold of the power and money they once lorded over.

Whether framed as illegal or legal – the digital distribution of either kind WILL fundamentally change who gets paid for making music - for once it may actually be the artists creating it.   What a concept.....

I can now step off my box-

I am not buying new CDs - I buy exclusively used CDs.   I do not use the file sharing services, but I DO borrow CDs and rip them.  I sometimes keep those files and sometimes I don't.  

The model that should survive is a model that compensates artists and composers (there are two differnet copyrights - the (r) and the (c) both should be properly compensated).  

Unless - our politicians are even more crooked than I already think - the current model with most $ going to a middle man (labels) will not surive.  

The model I think COULD survive - tiered and cumulative access to all songs.  Tiered in the sence of multiple price leves for multiple levels of access.  Cumulative in the sence that once a song is purchased it forever remains available to you without a second payment.  

This will required mandatory - or as they are called "Compulsory Licences" so that a particular music serivce can have access to all works.   That servce would then handle the compensation of artists.   The distirbution means would be indepent of the creation.  Something that will benefit both music and society.  

Dustin Mets

[KingSparta]

I Hear curently there is 3,756,356 users using Kazaa sharing 662,975,880 files (5,225,984GB)

I don't think this number has droped any from what it was before the RIAA anounced they would sew every user in the world who uses P2P\shares music.

=======================================

I don't see this will ever change

and if the RIAA wanted to do something constructive they would create a clearing house for all music they are in charge of.

They could charge lower rates, and make ISP's to block all files that match a fingerprint. or force Microsoft to include this in all versions of the operating system to turn you In if you send or rec a file that matches the finger print that does not come from a valid paid service.

[Kurt Young]

I know that the spirit of p2p is alive and well.  The "lite" version of Kazaa gets updated all the time with new features and options that keep the network a step ahead of RIAA.  For instance, I've heard that now you can configure your p2p client to not store your IP in your .dat files, a new option that is designed purely to frustrate "the man."  It is options like this that makes me believe that clever programmers will always keep the p2p networks running.

It's still garishly easy to find anything you want out there, too.  Not as nice as it was when Napster was rolling, but it's a fact that there's a lot of media out there.

The biggest downside, as mentioned above, is quality and attention to detail.  If I were to download a whole album from a p2p network, I'd most often have to click about for a while.  Got to get a list of the tracks on the album, got to search for a good quality version of each song.  Once they're downloaded, you've got to tag tag tag tag tag, get the filenames straight, inject the cover art, etc etc.  It's a whole lot of work.

So, with that in mind as a contrast, it reinforces the idea of useful post-download products from "legit" music services.  P2p is free, aye, but annoying and work-intensive.  Full albums, encoded well, reasonably priced, properly tagged, purchased and downloaded with two or three clicks... that's worth paying for.

[dingoBaby]

Filesharing is still going strong.  In my opinion it has dropped off, ever so slightly, in light of the recent actions by the RIAA.  But its still a force to be reckoned with.

With the slightest of effort, one is able to find anything he or she is looking for in any format.  Maybe that's an exaggeration but between p2p apps, irc, and newsgroups there is a lot of music, movies, and applications available.   (Not that I would know where to look... )

*edit* Forgot to make another point.

You asked if p2p would be replaced by legal services.  I don't think filesharing will ever go away.  It has been going on too long and it has become a way of life for a big chunk of at least one generation of people  

Commercial services will become a viable opion for a bigger slice  of the world as they evolve.  However I think the recording industry is going to have to make their services much more flexible, in terms of price, format and personal use, if they hope to be successful.

[LisaRCT]

People are still sharing files, but being a bit more cautious.

If there has been a down-slide in users it seems more because of poor files, or that they have already downloaded all they presently want and only do it on occaision, i.e.:  needing to preview an album, add something missing from a collection, etc.  

I agree that paid download services using high quality files, properly tagged, and economically priced can definately fly, but it will take compromises from both sides and time to catch on.

[markp99]

My lastest approach to sample new music from new artists is use MMJB's "Online Music" service (essentially subscription-based internet radio where I can select/tune the artists, genres, mixes, etc.).

I use MMJB in conjunction with "Total Recorder"  (www.highcriteria.com) to record the streams to MP3 on the fly.  Latest version of Total Recorder actually detects when the song title changes in the MMJB application (as well as WinAmp, Real, and others) and automatically SPLITS the stream into named MP3's ("Artist - Title.mp3").  Very slick!

I simply define my desired collection of artists/genres and let MMJB play for a few hours.  Voila, a new mix of artists and music ready to push to my iPod for offline listening away from my home computer...

I was very concerned about sound quality in this scenario, but I am so far quite pleased with the result!!  I record the online stream (supposedly 16bit 44,000 wav) using 192kpbs CBR LAME MP3.  

I can detect a slight narrowing of the dynamic range in the recordings, but thru iPod's earbuds, they are quite adequate.  

I am sure purists would cringe at this approach, but this provides me a very good source of new material with no hassle of P2P.

[zevele10]

When i have internet ,i'am allmost 24/24 on SoulSeek.
I share and get only full albums.
With art sleeve ,lyrics ,bios as pictures.
Most of them are in good encoding. But many still have 128kps from the time people had only one hard disc.

Most - if not all- of the albums are ,according to mtv criteria, obscure bands and albums.

There is a lot of LPs never on Cds to find.
You download from only one person at the time.
Like it there is really a comunoty- Often i rip a cd only for one who need it and has stuff i would like.

Concerning very rare LPs or Cds, or bot ,i put them in Windows9 lossless format.

They may have problem one day , in this case ,Nir [ the founder] of SoulSeek would just need to back home [== here] and open it here ,or in Gazaa.......

If i would pay for such a service ?
The answer is yes , but there is not any.
Beside it ,more than 50% of the bands are not anymore since years... so i would give money to corporates..HUM....

Now ,keep in mind that all the Hilary circus is an american thing , there is millions peopleon the net ,not from US.....

I do know of new p2p services  that Hilary would have hard time to close or get the users.........

I download around 2-5 thousands songs a month from SoulSeek.
I listen to all and may keep for good around 20 full albums.

How many songs i put to share ?...well ,let say ,,like a VERY BIG node...

I do think that it is to late ,that they new services are much to much expansive and limited and that P2P are here to stay.

Maybe less in the US ,but what is US in the world of online people? A drop of water

[Jynx]

My feeling too is that the numbers of people sharing on Kazaa has dropped a little over the last few months.  But as King says there are typically still over 3million people using it at any one time, that's a lot of people.

For me I think a good legal service would reduce the number of illegal downloads, if you're downloading one or two tracks then something like Kazaa is not a bad option but then if your only paying 99c for a legal copy then I would pay it.  For whole albums worth of tracks though I think P2P is too slow, and I wouldn't pay 99c per track on a whole album when I can buy the thing from Amazon for not much more - and if I buy from Amazon I also get nice CD packaging and don't need to worry about my HD crashing and losing the lot or worry about the number of times I have copied the music.

Will legal services spell the end of P2P? Well I think it might (for music) - I think even a small to moderate drop in P2P users will mean that you won't be able to find the tracks that you want and if you do find the music then more people will be downloading from the same source which will slow the whole thing down and discourage users even further.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.


J

[Bartabedian]

It's truly unfortunate that the labels see the traders as "pirates" targeted for lawsuits rather than potential customers who could be targeted for income to resurrect their ailing businesses.

I don't see it stopping anytime soon. Kazaa is just one of the many ways to trade files. The RIAA needs a new tactic, one that engages the music buyer rather than alienates and angers them.

[Mike Noe]

From what I hear, these services will be alive and well for a long time, there are some very clever people that, in some cases, consider it a life mission to make sure.   I cannot imagine that commercial services will replace them, but certainly there seems to be plenty of momentum for commerical services to be highly successful in the long-term.

I think dmets is right on in many areas, but there is a huge product problem.  For many years now, image has been more important than the actual "art" from the so-called artist.  The concept of an album or CD is essentially obsolete.  Artists now have the ability to control their art, decide what the product really is and then put it out there for the world.

[Charlemagne 8]

Kazaa is alive and well and being hotly pursued by Kazaa-Lite (ironically an illegal program). And as has been said, there are 3.5 million users at any given time. That's down from 4.0 million before the lawsuits began. A half million people is a lot of people but negligible in this instance.
The pay-to-play services are gaining ground but the aggressiveness of the RIAA in their pursuit of the nasty 12 year old song-stealer is keeping the P2P's alive. There will always be enough free-lancers out there that consider it a sport defeating any anti-P2P measures.
Remember back when ... if the RIAA had not made such a big stink over Napster, most people would never have heard of it.
CVIII

[Valissystem]

There are a lot of issues that are being grappled with. Some personal thoughts:

I don't see the "illegal" sharing of music going away until the RIAA and such companies understand that their business model will have to change and actually doing something sensible about it. It is important to see that the Internet has highly commoditized all kinds of data and information. Music and other "entertainment" is just one of these areas. This has an impact such that the perceived value of the "Intellectual property" (at least in a per instance sense and possibly in other ways also)  has changed dramatically.

Yet still most mainstream distributors seem not to understand this - or at least are unwilling to change their valuation of their "property" that they operate from. Basically the applied business models that they use,  do not match most net-aware individuals valuing of the information or indeed the way that people are using music/media in their lives now.

I would see that online music in one sense or another is becoming even more important. The access to more than just the "major" labels and what they have decided to sell you at the moment is imporatant. I personally find this, as living in New Zealand, access to smaller label's catalogues, information regarding artists and releases etc. (particularly progressive rock) is entirely via the net anyway (including buying CDs online).

Also I see people I know, that now rely on the "try before you buy" concept. They want to listen to something and check that it fits in with how they listen to music, before they go out and buy it in a more permanent form. My observation is that there is less of the "buy a CD listen to it once or twice and then it's never played again" phenomenon.  People are more selective about what they buy and are using online music  to "do their research" as to what they like and want to buy.

To people like this, the online methods used probably matter little, as long as the cost is minimal and the methods are easy. The so called "illegal" services, would often seem to be simpler and easier than the "official" services. Internet radio also fulfills a significant role here - particularly for less mainstream material that is otherwise extremely hard to hear.

So called copy protection schemes are becoming a real joke and I believe are probably an incentive to download (illegally in most cases) rather than deal with the hassles of "broken media" that won't play. I personally know of a couple of different people who recently have bought a recent "CD like object" with so called copy protection that wouldn't play on any type of player they had. However they were both able to rip them perfectly satisfactorily. This being the only way they had to actually play the content. This type of experience actually encourages people to not buy in the future, just to download - it's probably less hassle!

I imagine that most record company executives don't want to here this, however this is my observations anyway.

Just my 2c. :-)

[AndyCircuit]

Will p2p going on? Will legal services succeed? It depends on what legal services offer. If the customer is on mainstream he will stay on p2p as long as possible. Try to get Madonna, Die Another Day and it's on your hd within 90sec. But if you're not and also collecting... Try to get the album Encounter by Flora Purim and you know what I mean.
If there is a service where I can type in such a request and get a result with 192/vbr at least and without DRM for a reasonable price..... then I will register.   (I have a dream....)
But since I'm grey on top my opinion may not of interest. I have three fourteen years old girls in my wlan neigborhood and should ask them. I'm sure their opinion is of more importance for the future of legal services then mine.
AC

[KingSparta]

I am not sure but this program

http://www.joltid.com/index.php/peerenabler/how_it_works

was installed some how. Ii do know i did not download it.

but it seems to have something to do with P2P sownloading of files that have been "signed" by the companies that own the content.

[LisaRCT]

Aside from the whole question of "unauthorized downloads", there are a number of archive sites where one can get Authorized downloads of live concert recordings.  This material is usually of fairly high uality (digital recording devices with high-end microphones, taps directly into the sound board, or a mix of the two . . .  recorded as wav files and encoded in a lossless format).
The bands who allow this are still making plenty of money and usually find this increases their core audience.  For instance, look at the Grateful Dead . . . .
they allowed recording at their concerts since the beginning of time and tape trading has been ongoing.  They for many years were known as the highest grossing tour band and were always able to sell-out most venues quickly in spite of the frequency of their concerts. Many artists have followed suit, thus minimizing the need for promotion by a record label and replacing it with music that sells itsef.
Some artists have stated that file sharing increases sales (i.e.: Janis Ian states that whenever she distributes her old material on the net that lbums sales suddenly revive).

Whether 'unauthorized' or not, file sharing and music downloads will remain a way of life . . . .  perhaps the RIAA and others simply need to get up with the times.

[Mastiff]

Kazaa is really for amateurs and kids now. The real stuff is in programs like Direct Connect and Apple Juice. Kazaa is too full of bad rips and spoof files.

[sraymond]

I hear eMule is starting to make quite the inroad.  Sites like http://www.sharereactor.com help ensure that content is legitimate...  or so they tell me :-)

Scott-