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[john121]

Hi Thanks for reading

What do you think of a decent level soundcard versus decent receiver.
The soundblaster ae5 connected to external power amps, versus yamaha rxa2070
There is some old debate, would love a modern 2021 point of view.
Do you have any real world experience of cards versus receivers, or cards versus external processors of any nature.
Many thanks.

[wer]

Welcome to the forums, John.

It's a good question.  You can't swing a dead cat on this forum without finding people with significant real world experience.  We have a lot of people here with a lot of expertise.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is a fair amount of disagreement on this issue. That's fine.  I'll give you my view.

Sound cards have their place. The absolute best way to output sound from a PC is digitally, either by USB or HDMI, or some other more exotic interface.  The analog output stage of most sound cards is, to put it gently, garbage.  But the Soundblaster AE5 is a good sound card, especially by the standards of sound cards.  If you really wanted to use the analog output stage on a sound card, that would be a good one to pick.

You don't say why you might want to connect your sound card to your power amps.  If budget is an issue, and you want multichannel, get a receiver. If you only need stereo, you can get a Topping DAC for the same money as the Soundblaster. If you need multichannel and prefer a separate DAC, the Okto DAC8 Pro is a great choice.

I like Yamaha. That particular product is not their best. If you are using separate power amps, why are you looking at a receiver?  A processor or pre-amp would be the more appropriate choice. Yamaha makes the CX-A5200, which is very nice. Yamaha, Marantz, and others make nice processors that don't have built-in amps. I prefer Yamaha to Marantz. They sound more musical, and run cooler.

I would never, under any circumstances, even as a bet, hook up a sound card directly to a power amplifier.

It's not about output voltage, or signal to noise ratio, or noise filtering, or distortion, or any of those things. And it's not even about user error or other misconfiguration.  The reason is much more unavoidable:

PCs sometimes crash. Especially PCs with SoundBlaster cards in them. SoundBlaster drivers sometimes crash all on their own.  And when these things happen, sometimes the result is not silence. Sometimes the result is hum, random digital noise, or a constant repeat of the last samples that were in the output buffer. There have been SB drivers that output a hum whenever the driver wasn't initialized (meaning, as soon as you powered on the PC but before the driver loaded, or after you shut down the OS but before power was cut).

And that noise can be output at full line level, without attenuation.

Result, when connected directly to your power amplifier = Blown Drivers.

Just for that reason, hooking up a PC directly to a power amp is the height of recklessness. It's just madness.

Lots of people probably do this with low power headphone amps, that don't have the power to damage their headphones. Fine. But you said power amps. 

Now your speakers may well survive if the amp you are using is a small affair with the power of a harnessed fieldmouse, but if you're talking hundreds of watts per channel, then it's simply too dangerous.  Don't do it.  I'm sure there will be people who will say "Oh I've been doing this forever; never had a problem."  Good for them.  It's like leaving a loaded gun where you kid can get to it.  Luck.


That's my advice.


Good luck...

[john121]

Thanks!  The Okto DAC8 looks good but only has balanced outputs, my amp is unbalanced rca only.

Do you have any other  dac / preamp recommendations.

The okto dac is usb input, can usb support high bitrate files such as dtshdma and dolby tru.

Thank you.

[wer]

Lack of balanced on your amp is a handicap. If you have to have multichannel, your choices in DACs are extremely limited.

You could use XLR to RCA adapters with the Okto, or you could buy the (much more expensive) Exasound E68, or you could buy a (much lower quality DAC, no DSD, and discontinued) Minidsp U-DAC8 on Ebay.  Exasound and Minidsp are unbalanced. Okto is balanced.  You could buy the Okto and a new amp with balanced inputs for the price of the Exasound.

Or you could go with a receiver, in which case you will have problems with DSD.  But that Yamaha you mentioned is discontinued anyway, so I don't know why you're asking about it.

USB can support any of the formats. DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD are not what I would consider high-bitrate formats.  But DACs don't decode them anyway. JRiver will decode those formats, and send them as PCM to the DAC.  Receivers can decode those formats, but there is no disadvantage to having JRiver do it.

You haven't told me your amp(s), your speakers, your real requirements, or your budget, so I don't really have any other equipment recommendations to add beyond what I told you before.

If you only need 2 channel, you have hundreds of DACs to choose from, with prices ranging from dinner to a car. But you seem to imply you require multichannel, although you haven't said so.

Your choice is pretty simple:
- If you want Multichannel with DSD, get the Okto or Exasound
- If you want cheap multichannel with your existing amp and don't need DSD, get the Minidsp
- Or if you want to keep things simple and don't need DSD, get a receiver or processor like one I recommended previously.

Sounds like you need to do some more research.

Good luck.  I hope this helped.

[mojave]

If you are going with 7.1 or less channels and don't need external 4K video sources, then I prefer using a PC and soundcard. If you want to stay cheaper than a receiver and if you have HDMI output, then I would go with the Essence Evolve II-4K HDMI v2.0 / Multi-Channel DAC. For USB you can check out the Asus Xonar U7 MKII or ESI Gigaport HD+. If you have a higher budget, then there are lots of options. I currently have multi-channel DACS/soundcards from Creative Labs, Asus, RME, Steinberg, Tascam, and MOTU.

. . . people with significant real world experience.  We have a lot of people here with a lot of expertise . . . .
I would never, under any circumstances, even as a bet, hook up a sound card directly to a power amplifier.

I've been directly connected from my pc to amps via internal or external DACs since 1989 and haven't had an issue. I've never owned a receiver.  That is sort of funny because I am a Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, and Sony receiver custom installer.

I'm sure there will be people who will say "Oh I've been doing this forever; never had a problem."  Good for them.  It's like leaving a loaded gun where you kid can get to it.

I've connected directly to 2000+ watt amplifiers and would never compare that to a loaded gun. My speakers can handle the power just fine.
In addition to their mixer, almost all pro audio mastering studios have a signal chain straight from a DAW to a DAC to either power amps or active speakers. Maybe it would be better to just say, "Don't use SoundBlaster soundcards!" 

[wer]

The Essence or ESI devices Mojave mentioned would certainly be better than the Minidsp I referred to.

For USB you can check out the Asus Xonar U7 MKII

Isn't that discontinued as well?

I've connected directly to 2000+ watt amplifiers and would never compare that to a loaded gun. My speakers can handle the power just fine.

Like I said, good for you.    Would that be pro gear, for PA or for venues?  I'm wondering what home audio speakers have tweeters that can handle 2000+ watts.  Some woofers have soft bottoming, and some don't.  Some subs have limiters and filters built in, and some don't.

It's an undeniable reality that in a lot of cases, amplifiers have the ability to physically damage speakers. So it behooves the user to understand under what circumstances that can happen, and understand what can be done to mitigate that risk.

I don't doubt your experience. But having a volume control (that isn't subject to software glitches) between the PC and the amp is like a helmet for a motorcycle rider. Lots of cyclists went their whole lives and never wore a helmet and were fine.  Others...

[john121]

I have the asus H170I-PRO motherboard, paid £159 high end board, lets me put out 5.1 through the hdmi. Am thinking of a preamp or dac from hdmi.
The speakers i have are kef ls50 meta, paid £999 per pair.
Amps are 3 x quad 405-2 to produce 6 channels of amplification for 5.1
Any more dac recommendations please? My budget is £400. Not much but am willing to buy used if any bargains to be had
Many thanks

[mojave]

Like I said, good for you.    Would that be pro gear, for PA or for venues?  I'm wondering what home audio speakers have tweeters that can handle 2000+ watts.

While I did bring it up, the capability of the system is largely irrelevant to the "direct from computer to amps" argument. I've had some problems like when I tried to use two JRiver zones with different sample rates on the same DAC. JRiver locked up and the system produced some bad sounds until I shut it off. Most modern receivers and processors all use code, just like JRiver, for DSP and volume control and are just as susceptible to a max volume occurrence through the speakers. It is rare anymore to have something analog in the home theater signal chain that is restricting volume.

The tweeter doesn't have to handle 2000 watts due to the crossover. I have GR-Research LS-6 Line Source speakers and JTR Speakers Noesis 210RT's. I've also had JTR Speakers Noesis 215RT and 215RM.



Here are my 210RT's being shown in the JRiver room at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2016.

[wer]

Crossover shmossover.  Are you trying to assert that amps can't damage drivers?

Most modern receivers and processors all use code, just like JRiver, for DSP and volume control and are just as susceptible to a max volume occurrence through the speakers.

Code, yes. But just as susceptible? You really think so? I've see PCs with soundcards crash and otherwise misbehave and output max volume many times. You've seen it too.  I've never seen a processor or receiver "crash" and magically change its volume to 100%.

You know the old joke about what driving would be like if the car ran Windows.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming... 

[Manfred]

I have rme HDPSe AIO Pro - having also a DAC and Headphone AMP onboard. I use AES out, RCA SPDIF and Analog Out are also possible. It is the best audio card I have ever owned:

https://www.rme-audio.de/de_hdspe-aio-pro.html

[syndromeofadown]

What do you think of a decent level soundcard versus decent receiver.

I have been going straight from soundcard to amp for the last decade almost without issue.

I have one blueray audio disc that when MC analyses the volume adjustment is very wrong. It played back one time way louder than I would have liked. Nothing was damaged. That is the only time there has ever been a problem.

I have an 8 channel soundblaster card connected to my surround amp, I have various external dacs that I connect to my stereo amp. None of that HDMI silliness.

I have no remotes, just a mouse and keyboard, or JRemote (my projector has a remote but I don't need or use it). Everything is dead simple to setup and use. I have setup similar systems for friends and family. They have had zero issues and find it simple to use. More money to spend on amp when no receiver is needed.

The only reason I can think of to use a receiver is if you have a bunch of HDMI devices to switch between like Nintendo, Playstation, streaming from TV, etc. I have a Nintendo Switch but it isn't connected to my stereo, but I also never use it. I'm sure there are ways to add it into my setup if needed. I have a few preamps I can use if I wanted. I could bluetooth from the switch to a bluetooth receiver connected to preamp but that would just give me stereo. Regardless I would rather deal with stereo sound from my Switch than deal with a receiver.

Having no receiver works well for me, but for those who play console games maybe not so much.

[john121]

The reason i want to get away from sound cards and onto external dac is that i am having problems with the pc audio. I've searched around for months but cannot find anybody with a similar problem.
When i play a stereo file of low bitrate on the pc, about 140 kb/s the sound quality is okay, i can enjoy the music.
When i play a file with hd audio dtshdma or dolbytru the sound quality goes down considerably and sounds terrible compared to the stereo file.
With hd files the bass goes down by about 10db until i can barely hear it, the mids and high sound all wrong a piano does not sound like a piano the sound is thin and boring.
Intresting because the higher bitrate hd files should sound considerably better but i am getting the reverse effect.
I borrowed an asus stxII top end sound card and it was doing exactly the same thing. Have been fiddiling around with the settings but no change.
The only thing that comes close to an explanation is an article i found on protected audio pathways:
" Regarding soundcards in PC,s , the high res content from DTS MA and Dolby tru HD is always downconverted to 16 bit before digital to analog conversion.
There are no exceptions to this. It is a condition of the PAP ( protected audio path ) within PC's. "

" Without PAP, all audio must be downsampled (a.k.a. “bit crippled”) to 16-bit, 48kHz per the AACS specification. Unfortunately, there is no Protected Audio Path (PAP) on any computer right now, so all HD Audio is currently downsampled on a PC. "

Even taking this into account the hd files should sound better than the stereo but the hd sound is thin, washed out, boring.
I am doing something fundamentally wrong at a very basic level but cannot figure out what it is.
At the moment I have the asus H170I-PRO motherboard running windows 10 pro 64-bit, then asus stxII into the pci slot, then rca outs from stxII into 3 quad power amps to give 5.1 sound. Volume control is on the stxII.
Can you help, or do you have any pointers in the right direction.
Thanks

[wer]

John, I'm glad you posted that explanation. It makes it easier to understand where you're coming from. But I'm afraid you have picked up some bad information.  For example, you should completely put from your mind all that stuff about Protected Audio Path. That "there are no exceptions to this" bit is just hogwash. It's a red herring and not relevant. As Yoda would say, "You must unlearn what you have learned." 

The problems you describe indicates your software may be poorly configured for playback.

You've never commented on how you are playing back your media, or how you created the "files" you refer to that have DTS-HD MA soundtracks.  We don't know how you ripped. We don't even know if you're using JRiver Media Center to playback, or if you just posted your question here because you thought people could help. 

If you are using JRiver, people here can help. What I would suggest is that you create another thread, called "Please help me optimize my MC configuration" and post screenshots of your Audio settings in MC, along with screenshots of all the modules in DSP Studio.  Then we can make sure sound is being output correctly.

Regarding this thread, and the hardware question, I think you should keep things very simple, to get you going on the right path, and to stick within your budget.  Your motherboard has an HDMI port.  Since you are wanting to do video playback (obviously, since you are talking about DTS-HD MA and Dolby TruHD) I think you should just get a receiver with pre-outs. Since you were talking about RX-A2070 I'm guessing you were planning on getting one used to stick within your budget.  Good plan.  The pre-outs will allow you to use your old amps.

JRiver will be able to send your audio and video over the HDMI port on your motherboard.  The audio will be bit perfect. You can send the HDMI out from the receiver to your TV. 

Rip your Blurays with MakeMKV, play them with MC over HDMI, and I guarantee you will get the full 24-bit content of those tracks.

If you don't want the receiver or can't afford it, get one of the DACs. It can still be made to work fine, but a little more care will have to be taken in setup to ensure lipsync.  If you were only interested in audio I would say go with one of the DACs Mojave mentioned, but since you want video it's easier to send audio and video together over HDMI to a receiver.

This will give you excellent results and present no difficulties.

[Wheaten]

Hi John,


You mention:

At the moment I have the asus H170I-PRO motherboard running windows 10 pro 64-bit, then asus stxII into the pci slot, then rca outs from stxII into 3 quad power amps to give 5.1 sound. Volume control is on the stxII.

So you connect a stereo out (Asus STXII), apply the signal parallel to 3 amplifier inputs, is the Asus STX II capable to deliver this?
As I might expect some impedance issues.

[JimH]

Best not to size fonts unless there's a really good reason.

[Wheaten]

yeah, i know. but for some reason the fontsize keeps changing per row I type and only see it's unreadable after the cache is being refreshed.
Will try to edit my response with a different editor.

[JimH]

Your editor might have a setting for formatting.

[john121]

Hi John,


You mention:
So you connect a stereo out (Asus STXII), apply the signal parallel to 3 amplifier inputs, is the Asus STX II capable to deliver this?
As I might expect some impedance issues.

Sorry for the vagueness. The stxII has a daughter board with the surround channel outputs on there, the main board has only the left and right channels.