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[JimH]

I'd like to improve our handling of Classical music.  Can you give us specific suggestions of what we need to do?  Thanks.

[eve]

I'd like to improve our handling of Classical music.  Can you give us specific suggestions of what we need to do?  Thanks.

Roon's metadata paradigm is pretty good and something you should take note of. Especially for classical.

Objects with global identity
There is only one Ludwig Van Beethoven. And only one Symphony No. 9 in his catalog.

These entities have a single name, and a single representation. There is no such thing as the name of Symphony No. 9 on one album, as opposed to another--there is a global notion of Symphony No. 9 with a unique identity and metadata associated with it.

He, and his compositions, have the same identity regardless of what media he might have a relationship with in your library.

These objects live firmly with in the global perspective described above.

In other words, a work by a specific composer has an 'identifier' and therefore any performance of said work, regardless of the conductor or orchestra or album, is 'linked'. This is phenomenally useful for quickly finding a performance / recording to your taste or exploring other versions of the piece.

The amount of leg work to implement something like this would be absurd however.

[JimH]

That may be AllMusic's work, not Roon's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllMusic

[eve]

That may be AllMusic's work, not Roon's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllMusic

Jim, you're correct. Roon utilizes AllMusic and some other databases as it's primary sources for it's metadata nonsense. However, using AllMusic's 'understanding' of these "Works" would require new field additions. "mc0002366840" is for example, AllMusic's composition ID for Beethoven's 9th (using Roon's example). The reason I mention looking to Roon was that they were the first to integrate this 'concept' into their software in a very hands off manner that kind of just worked.

If we look at a Pop track, taking Holding Out For A Hero as an example, there's a wealth of unmined metadata that MANY pieces of music library software have a tendency to ignore.
https://www.allmusic.com/song/holding-out-for-a-hero-mt0011780921/also-performed-by
Hugely useful. Sure, finding the same song by the same artist across multiple albums is useful, but now if we can also find covers, or just alternative versions by the original artist more reliably, now we're getting into the territory where your music library software is expanding your musical horizons and showing you more in depth connections / relations between media you already have.

I've been out of the JRiver Music scene for quite a while so perhaps this has already made it's way in but if not. This is absolutely something to consider, though, the costs may be significant.

http://prod-doc.rovicorp.com/mashery/index.php/Main_Page
https://business.tivo.com/products-solutions/metadata/music-metadata

I've actually been looking into them myself for film metadata (though IMDB's is really close to flawless and what I currently use).

[kr4]

Roon's metadata paradigm is pretty good and something you should take note of. Especially for classical.

Regardless of who does the legwork, this is true and, imho, the biggest feature of Roon.  OTOH, it constantly makes errors which are exacerbated by Roon's constraints on user correction/editing of metadata.  Had they provided even an off-line metadata editor, the system would be more useful.  Of course, this kind of facility is one of JRiver's strengths.

The amount of leg work to implement something like this would be absurd however.

I profess ignorance of this but I imagine that taking advantage of user input to improve the database would be of benefit to all.

[eve]

Regardless of who does the legwork, this is true and, imho, the biggest feature of Roon.  OTOH, it constantly makes errors which are exacerbated by Roon's constraints on user correction/editing of metadata.  Had they provided even an off-line metadata editor, the system would be more useful.

You're telling me. It's built in metadata editing sucks, not that I'm inclined to edit tags in my library software BUT when I do want to, JRiver's really can't be beat (Plus, JRiver has Pane based view filtering... how can that not be a priority for something like Roon? JRiver wins again )
I don't get a terrible number of horribly incorrect matches in Roon but I'm also still due for a massive overhaul of my library's metadata.
I'm still debating how to work in something like AllMusic's IDs into my actual files. I have a few private databases for music information that are extremely comprehensive, it's just about spending the probably week or two of work putting everything together to 'automate' the system and god knows how long for fixing whatever can't be matched by hand.

[JimH]

I profess ignorance of this but I imagine that taking advantage of user input to improve the database would be of benefit to all.

Yeah, it just needs a clever way to link multiple names to an anchor name.  Maybe just a simple lookup.

"Hey, would you like to link your composer to our standard name?"

[eve]

Yeah, it just needs a clever way to link multiple names to an anchor name.  Maybe just a simple lookup.

"Hey, would you like to link your composer to our standard name?"

I don't mind a look up.
Now of course, the other way is a little more complex, finding and then storing a unique ID (that's the same for all users) for these 'concepts' such as a composition, or a song. Your Beethoven's the Fifth and my various performances of Beethoven's Fifth all have their own tags, and unique file key in our respective JRiver libraries, BUT they also share a global ID that can then be shared with multiple items in your own library, or metadata externally.

I've been doing this for a very long time for my film library and it's incredibly powerful.

[JimH]

Yeah, it just needs a clever way to link multiple names to an anchor name.  Maybe just a simple lookup.

"Hey, would you like to link your composer to our standard name?"

Or we make assumptions.  We know that it's not Frank Beethoven.  Bach or Strauss would be harder.

[kr4]

Or we make assumptions.  We know that it's not Frank Beethoven.  Bach or Strauss would be harder.

Agreed but, even with these, the universe is small.

[High-End]

As written in feature request:
* genre specific tags for the remote
Today, when I start playing (any genre) a song the remote (EOS/ Gizmo, what ever) is showing
1st row: song name
2nd row: interpred and album name

what I would like to see in genre classical
1st row: song name
2nd row: composer
3rd. row: orchestra / soloists / conduktor / Chorus
the Tag and there order should be configurable.

As I understand MC it provides the remote (EOS/ Gizmo, what ever) the data to display. So the remote shows what is delivered. Therefore a kind of "debt to be brought forward".
-> Please don't refer to: "server settings under Media Network > Advanced."
It can't do the same

[EnglishTiger]

Way back in 2019 wer came up with a "new concept" for handling Classical Music in MC based on the introduction of some New Fields/Tags the primary one being "Composition".

As a big fan of Classical Music I contacted wer and asked him for more information/detail about his concept this led me to not only finally move all my Classical Music onto the PC; it also resulted, thanks to some changes Matt made to the way MC handles obtaining the content of library fields, in the creation of the First TrackInfo Plugin that could handle some of the requirements of Classical Music Fans.

Let's look at some of the existing areas that would also need changing to make MC even more Classical Music friendly:

The routine used to test if an Album is Complete.
When faced with a Box Set that contains more than around 28 CDs the routine will declare a Box-Set Incomplete, when it is actually complete, but rather strangely will declare a box set with less than 28 CDs Complete when CD1 is not present.

The Environments in DSP Studio >> Effects needs expanding.
A vast amount of Classical Music was written to be Performed in a Church/Cathedral and is often recorded in such buildings.
It would also require some DSP Settings/Effects to be applied at individual track level.

The organisation of the "out of the box" Modern Tag Window
Even though it has a "Classical" section the majority of the existing tags/fields associated with Classical Music are in the badly named "Advanced" section.

Media Center for Android iPhones, Gizmo and Remote  - and this is one that applies to more than just Classical Music.
The existing designs do not lend themselves to providing the user with enough information about most Media Types and need redesigning to allow them to become more User Friendly and User Configurable.

Back in 2021 wer came up with a way of Automatically Parsing Compilation and Movement field/tag content from a properly Structured Track Name - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128884.0.html

Unfortunately, it never really got past the design stage because there were more users against deploying something that involved them in using manual methods to restructure their existing tags than in favour of using it.

That is the conundrum facing any proposed change to Handling Classical Music - getting enough users to agree on a single strategy/approach to make it feasible.

[jkauff]

How do the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, and other institutions with large digital classical collections handle search and metadata? Do they create their own software or buy it from a third-party vendor?

[DJLegba]

It should be fairly easy to fix one big irritation. For various reasons (not the least of which being downloads from cantatas to operas to string quartets are almost always tagged with the genre "Classical") I have a lot of music tagged with more than one genre. I have a view that is organized by composer, genre, and composition, which makes it very convenient to find all of Beethoven's string quartets and all performances of a particular quartet when using MC. However, all remotes see only the first genre, so if I've forgotten to remove Classical from a composition that is also tagged as a string quartet it doesn't show up in any remote when I view by composer and then genre = string quartet. I know there are other tags available and I could be using sub-genre etc, but MC makes it possible to tag something with multiple genres so the info mcws sends to the remotes should make it possible for them to retrieve more than the first genre.

Tagging a piece with multiple genres can be very useful. If an album of symphonic music also contains some opera overtures I can easily find all performances of a particular overture when I view by genre "opera" but still see all tracks on an album when I view by composer and set genre to symphonic (because MC lets me select either composition or album when I've arrived at the symphonic grouping). MC is very flexible this way and I use it a lot. However, I regularly use MO4Media to select something to listen to, and it would be fantastic if MC could give the remotes enough info to use the remote views as they've been designed. I've used JRemote iOS, JRemote Android, JRemote2, and Gizmo, and they all function the same way, which is why I assume it's mcws reporting only the first genre when a track has multiple genres.

[JimH]

I've used JRemote iOS, JRemote Android, JRemote2, and Gizmo, and they all function the same way, which is why I assume it's mcws reporting only the first genre when a track has multiple genres.

If that is the case, we might be able to add a configuration on the server that allows substitution of fields or parts of fields.

To re-design all the remotes would be a big project for probably little gain.

[BillT]

I've been using JRiver for classical music for the best part of 2 decades and developed my own tagging scheme before there were any classical tags in the program. This lets me easily find any work I want, by composer, or work type, or soloist, or conductor, etc. I can use remotes to select a work by using my view schemes but they are all poor at displaying information when playing.

I would like the display to change depending on genre, but typically I want to see composer, work and movement with possibly performers too for instrumental music. Vocal music would have a slightly different display.

[High-End]

Classical classical music is mainly by German-speaking composers. However, many of the database entries used for automatic tagging are in English. Anglo-Saxons and their entourage see no need for other languages beyond English.....  Also the quality of the tags is very different. 40% of my Music collection is classical music.  I always tag my classical music manually.
For me it would be a step forward if I could see my tags on the remotes as well. That's why I've been wishing for genre-dependent tags for years, which are transferred to the remotes.
Let's see if I experience an implementation in this life...

[DJLegba]

That's why I've been wishing for genre-dependent tags for years, which are transferred to the remotes.
Let's see if I experience an implementation in this life...

MO4Media does indeed display all tags. You can't edit them, but I don't mind that.

[DJLegba]

If that is the case, we might be able to add a configuration on the server that allows substitution of fields or parts of fields.

To re-design all the remotes would be a big project for probably little gain.

I suspect it's just a matter of making mcws return all genres instead of just the first, but I'm sure Craig will know.

[Dawgincontrol]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I use the "Bluedream" track info plug-in (which I have edited slightly), and it gives differing info for classical and non-classical if in the "Genre" field.

It's not a cure-all, but it does work.  Been so long since I used a different one, I don't know if other templates available do also.

[EnglishTiger]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I use the "Bluedream" track info plug-in (which I have edited slightly), and it gives differing info for classical and non-classical if in the "Genre" field.

It's not a cure-all, but it does work.  Been so long since I used a different one, I don't know if other templates available do also.

Dawgincontrol
What you forgot to mention is that the "Bluedream" track info plugin you are using is one of the ET TrackInfo Plugins https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129621.0.html
And there are 9 other track info plugins, the ones with Ultimate I and Ultimate II in their name, in that series that have the ability to "switch the information displayed based on the genre of the track currently being played"

While designing those plugins I knew that the amount of Information (metadata) needed to adequately identify a piece of classical music would need to be different to what any existing track info plugin provided for Non-Classical Music.
The end result was V1.0 of those plugins with its 3 Variants -
    "ET xxxx TrackInfo" – Designed for use mainly when playing non-classical music,
    "ET xxxx Classical TrackInfo" – Designed with the help of Wer for use mainly when playing classical music,
    "ET xxxx Lyrics" – A lyrics only version designed for karaoke fans.

V2.0 saw the introduction of a 4th Variant "ET xxxx Ultimate TrackInfo" with its ability to change between "Classical" and "Non-Classical" display modes, which is triggered by the presence/absence of the word "Classical" in the Genre Tag.
Theoretically making the "ET xxxx TrackInfo" and "ET xxxx Classical TrackInfo" plugins redundant.

It is some of that "display mode" switching ability that wer was referring to in this thread - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134200.0.html when he raised the subject of "Better Support for Classical Music".

Unfortunately using track-info plugins, which obtain all the information for the track currently playing from the applicable library, are restricted to the 3 PC Platforms; which is why fans of hand-held devices are asking for improvements to be made to what they see on those devices.

If anyone is wondering what that "differing info" Dawgincontrol is referring to this Pix01 Gallery https://pix01.jriver.com/0M1%403Qeg shows it for one of the Lyrics pages and the Track + Album Info page when in Non-Classical Mode then in Classical Mode.

[Dawgincontrol]

Thanks for the clarification and information English Tiger.

Also, thanks for your outstanding work on these.  To me, they are unparalleled.