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[Matt]

We're wondering a few things:

1) How much do you use your computer to watch DVD's?

2) When you do watch a DVD, do you use Media Center or some other program like ZoomPlayer or WinDVD?

3) If you use some other program, why?  What enhancements does Media Center need in this area?

Thanks for any advice.

[dragyn]

I'll bite..

I usually watch DVD movies if there isn't anything else on. When I do watch them, I have to use WinDVD because MC will just not play them. I get a DVD error.

When you load a DVD, you are presented with the files in the list:

DVD Title 1 (21 chapters)
DVD Title 2 (2 chapters)
etc.

Most ppl are not gonna know what to do with that. You need some DVD background to navigate throught the list. I know the first title is gonna be the movie since it has, for one, the most chapters. You can't go by time since MC reports 0:00 for all titles.

For the current movie I have, it has 22 titles. 5 of them have more than 21 chapters to it. A newbie won't be able to figure it out.

The only way is to just start them all up and see what happens. Usually the movie should just start, like when using a normal DVD system.

[NoCodeUK]

The only program I can use to play DVD on my system is Power DVD.  I would love to use MC but the sound quality using MC on my machine was awful.  Power DVD is the only program where I get decent sound.

Adam

[Griff]

Hi Matt

1) How much do you use your computer to watch DVD's?

The computer is use as a base for my HTS.
So it will be used a lot since Im almost finished with the project.

2) When you do watch a DVD, do you use Media Center or some other program like ZoomPlayer or WinDVD

No

ATIs player or Windows player.

3) If you use some other program, why?  What enhancements does Media Center need in this area

MC:
Does not autorun

Does not start at the root.

There have been a lot of posts to this effect, by myself and others.

Two weeks ago, I started converting old VHS tapes, of the kids and ect., from over 20 years ago.

I figured out a work around for MC not starting at the root. Now I can have the Menu come up first, to sel. from and not have to do it manually from within MC.

Plus it also looks good on stand alone players.

This work around only works if I create the DVD.
It wont work on store bought.

Will MC ever play Mp2 by ATI?

If so I could leave them on the hard drive, bring them in by date and play thru MC that way.


Thanks for the interest in the matter.
Griff

[RemyJ]

Wouldn't use MJ or any other program to play DVDs.

I have a $150 Sony DVD player attached to a $150 JVC 15" flat panel TV that I control via a Slink-e.  I'm usually doing real work on the computer so having a DVD playing on it at the same time doesn't work well.  The picture's better on the TV anyway.

[sdgrizdan]

I have a request to implement VCD support into MC. Currently, I have to use my stand alone DVD player to play VCDs.

[aussie1]

We're wondering a few things:

1) How much do you use your computer to watch DVD's?


I do not own a separate DVD player. I use my computer for DVD playing. I probably watch fewer DVDs than most people - maybe 12 movies per year.



2) When you do watch a DVD, do you use Media Center or some other program like ZoomPlayer or WinDVD?

3) If you use some other program, why?  What enhancements does Media Center need in this area?  

I have an ATI AIW 8500 DV. I usually use ATI's software because it is easily controlled by the ATI Remote. Though it has problems with fast forward and rewind. Sometimes, the ATI software has trouble reading DVDs. In this case, I use WinDVD v 2.1 because it came free with my DVD reader.  I have a (licensed) copy of PowerDVD 4.0 that someone gave me, but I've never felt the need to install it.

At present, I simply need basic ability to play DVDs and control them with my ATI remote. Quality of sound and picture is the most important thing. In a year or two, I'll start making my own DVDs and the needs will increase.

I have not tried MC's DVD capabilities yet. I will next time I rent a DVD.

[Eiffel]

1) How much do you use your computer to watch DVD's?

-- A lot (Main reason for HTPC), as this gives a better picture quality than a standalone player on my projector

2) When you do watch a DVD, do you use Media Center or some other program like ZoomPlayer or WinDVD?

-- I use TheaterTek (and PowerDVD as a backup)

3) If you use some other program, why?  What enhancements does Media Center need in this area?

--Best picture quality, simple interface (emulates set-top box, with OSD, etc), powerful (aspect ratio control, can work with non square pixels), reliable
--It will be difficult to sway me away from TheaterTek, unless MC can match the picture quality, interface and power (Adding DD, DTS, and other decoding capabilities would also be a must, as TT will be adding these features soon). IMHO, TT is a 'best-of-breed' application (Like MC is for audio, IMHO)
--What I would welcome, though, is a way to use MC (and the Hairline interface) to launch TT when playing DVDs. Slick integration could result in a very nice DVD jukebox

Eiffel

[Kurt Young]

Wow.  TheatreTek offers every single feature that I would expect from a PC-based dvd player.  Much better than WinDVD, which is what I use.

If MC could do the things that TT could do... in the same clean, easy manner... well, it'd just fantastic!

I don't use MC to play DVDs because it has a very poor interface.  I want my PC-based DVD player experience to be as easy as my set-top experience.  I don't want to have to look at a list of chapters and titles and whatnot.

[Matt]

It will be difficult to sway me away from TheaterTek, unless MC can match the picture quality, interface and power (Adding DD, DTS, and other decoding capabilities would also be a must, as TT will be adding these features soon). IMHO, TT is a 'best-of-breed' application (Like MC is for audio, IMHO)

Media Center is a DirectX "filter front-end" for DVD playback, meaning it needs DVD filters installed from some other source.

This also means it will have the exact same audio / video quality as whatever other DVD software you have installed, because it will be using the same filters.

So, it's not an issue of quality -- only of presentation.  What does Hairstyle / fullscreen need to be as good as TT in this regard?

Thanks.

[Eiffel]

This also means it will have the exact same audio / video quality as whatever other DVD software you have installed, because it will be using the same filters.

So, it's not an issue of quality -- only of presentation.  What does Hairstyle / fullscreen need to be as good as TT in this regard?

Matt,

Hairstyle is very promising, and I plan on using it quite a lot for music. For video, the non-intrusive OSD of TT is very nice (the video is still going on full screen, like a conventional DVD player). I like the fact that it is not gimmicky, but still lets you know what just happened (as opposed to letting you see what you can do next). I would certainly welcome a similar interface for video material (TV and DVDs), and even audio in MC. Maybe- Hairsyle can do it (I haven't seen it, but my investigations were very limited)

TT also offers some very nice features (some are related to video quality, in some ways at least), which I can't do without. The most obvious one for me is the ability to adjust picture size very finely (so that circles will be... circular, even if your display doesn't have square pixels... and also to have cleaner edges on 'open-mat' DVDs).

There are also some great usability features (settings per disk, including where to start, which filtering to apply, which aspect ratio to use -even if the disk is flagged incorrectly), which make for a great experience. If find that I use most features, and that almost all my needs are covered (DD and DTS decoding are the main things missing for me).

I must say that, for now, MC9.0 is a great piece of software, with a lot of power for music playing (APE, ASIO, oversampling, and the recently unveiled multichannel potential are very important to me), but it is more akin to Zoom Player in the DVD world (very powerful, but also a little bit daunting). Hairsyle -someone called it Hairspray on another forum - is a step towards increased usability, but it's too early for me to make a final assessment.

I really appreciate the work you guys are doing, and look forward to the final product (I know MC9 is in beta stage, so things like crashes on autoplay of CDs when MC9 is not already open, or YADB issues are still perfectly acceptable).

[PhatPhreddy]

Being a long time proponent of PCDVD solutions since the days when SW decoders could not work I guess I should chime in...

For the 'which player is best battle... there are only 2 contenders to this crown currently ZP and TT... In the Red corner we have  TT... It is a painless interface and designed to look good big screen and operate via a pronto from the outset it emulates a set top box and has an immense HT specific feature set (I will get to this in a second)... My girlfriend can pick up the remote... pop a DVD in and operate the whole shebang..

In the blue corner we have ZP... Why consider it if I am so happy with the above ?? Well the fact is ZP is a manic image tweakers dream... You want WinDVD analogue audio with Cineplayer video ?? then mix and match... You hear that NDVD looks better in a new filter release.. Install the filter and give it a go ONLY for the video... This way no matter which directshow player has better audio OR video options you have the best image and sound in your setup...

Then comes the good part... Like to roll up your sleves and get busy in graphedit playing with filter graphs (I dont get out much you can tell ) then you can start really going for that nth degree of image processing, Start trawling the image processing forums and you will find tools like ffdshow which allows you to add filtering options like sharpness / smoothing / denoise / etc... This actually allows you to correct and fix (or at least improve apon) some mastering errors like edge enhancement and mosquito noise at the player stage... There is a piece of HW that has these features... it costs >10k !!! You can also stack the filter graphs to include a reclock graph which assists in establishing a perfect sync between the audio and video decoders, this eliminates those micro stutters which have plagued various decoder filters for years due to the compromise that one clock has to be the master clock (audio or video) and breaking an audio stream makes a crack or pop and is very perceptable...

So why do I stick with TT ?? Well for one thing all this power obviously comes at the expense of ease of use... Although once these settings are made the player is mostly as easy as TT in reality there is a lot of fun to be had and time to be wasted with ZP... Secondly TT ships with the Sonic 1.5 decoders which are either the best or the second best video filter out there depending on your perception... Thirdly Andrew (TT's developer) released an update this week which allows for the two most important innovations in the last 6 months (ffdshow and reclock above) to be used within his app yet still retaining the overall simplicity and stability.  But...

I always keep ZP around... It is the benchmarking tool against which I measure TT's performance.. If TT's image starts to get left behind or a feature I cant miss appears (eg I want analogue audio decode and TT only outputs digital) then I can utilize ZP either until its fixed or whatever... Plus Blight (ZP's coder) builds in new options at a speed of development that is truly astounding... I have known speed addicts that slept more than this guy !!!

[PhatPhreddy]

Its important to note that both of these apps are directshow players... Blights player is uncrippled donationware and ships with no decoders, you have to purchase official decoder packs or DVD SW to obtain them, the upside is new releases of filter packs are often not sold or announced but slip out unnanounced... staying at the top of the filter chain is not easy. TT on the other had does ship with filters built in, it is a self standing application...

So how does this effect DVD playback in MC... Well I have to say that MY PERSONAL opinion is not positive for the HT crowd... You have 2 schools.. One is the I want it simple, elegant, and 99% of the quality.. they install TT the import the TT CCF to thier pronto and the Girder GML to Girder and they dont worry... They trust that important developments Andrew will get to and if they are 6 months behind some good feature of ZP they dont care as the descision / subjective evaluation and testing / debugging was all made for them... You cant compete to this market as they do not want a swiss army knife app, they want one invisible perfect reliable STB like DVD player...

Then you have the ZP crowd... Well it is concievable you could go this way but I have to say that Blight is a coding maniac... He leaves support up to the AVS group that loves his app (as well as contributing of course but no forum etc) by not selling the app he can do what he wants and feels... If you want the swiss army knife of directshow video players I cannot concieve of a more feature filled customizable / powerful / growable / etc solution... Want to playback recorded HD material ?? no problem, build a filter graph with the leaked elecard splitter / decoder and any one of the DVD playback engines... Give it >2ghz processor and you are away !!! to compete with this guy will be a goal worthy of admiration... Really features are requested in the day and released the next... The app has gone from being rough around the edges to superb v3 in a couple of yesr tops (maybee less than 2 !!).

Apologies in advace if this is not good news but I was of the opinion at the MC9 suggestion stage that I and many love MC (or MJ) as the king of the hill audio cataloguer and maintainer... its database capabilities are second to none... Everyhing I love about it stems from its audio side... I use king of the hill apps whenever I can... You are one and should be happy, but in the video field I use dScaler for deinterlacing OTA transmissions and the apps above for DVD and HD content.

So that I am not just letting you done, what do these apps have that you need to at least get started.

Aspect ratio control... Anyone with a 16x9 screen cannot use a player that does not have this.. Personally I use an anamorphic lens on a 4:3 projector so need to rescale non anamophic disc to psuedo anampohic etc... You need to be able to pillarbox 4:3 etc... In fact anything less than full user AR control is pretty lame... Many 16:9 users are out there hooking up to TV or other display, this is not optional...

Per disk settings. The above need to be remebered on a per disk basis.  While you are at it make sure that you store not only a default color, brightness, gamma curve ect profile but store a per disk setting to... Dark mastering that you tweak out with a different gamma curve needs to be remembered not redone each time... Also consider audio which leads to...

Set move start... I dont want to see those FBI warnings every time.. in fact I dont want the menu's etc every time.. Once a disk has been played you need to add to the above what audio stream (DD or DTS etc) I choose.. If I have 'autoplay' ticked make sure that when I put the disk in it auto starts at the feature beggining with the audio stream I choose... If I want the menu I can hit the menu button but lets face it you usually want to watch the movie and looking at FBI warnings and listening to some forced adverts (with no FF option) advertising the studio is bogus...

Pop up killer.. When a disk is inserted no one wants to see the PC(un)Friendly or Interactual player pop ups.. who installs that junk anyway ?? Its window needs to be detected and closed invisibly and automatically..

Remote control integration... If you are trying to enter the HT side consider than while people use keyboards or mice sometimes when watching a movie it is not welcome... I know you will probably build this in your app yourself but I would advice making sure you have Girder compatability too.. Most HTPC people use Girder anyway and a Girder GML and pronto CCF should be made available...

I will keep thinking on what else is vital but thats your starters...  I strongly suggest you get a copy of ZP and TT to see why these are so different yet so well loved... Also to get a flavor of HT use and issues set up a 16:9 screen and see how other players often fail to handle these elegantly.. .You dont need to purchase anything just get powerstrip and set up a 16:9 timing and resolution for the monitor you have (or add porches to get the same if using a flat panel monitor)... This will give you an insight to how AR needs to be handled..

[PhatPhreddy]

ROTFLMAO

An Error Has Occured!

Your message is too long. Please go back and shorten it, then resubmit.

You think it was trying to tell me something !!!!

On a serious note though that is a big error as the back button did not save my post... I had not been using the notepad cut and paste trick I would have been really pissed... Perhaps it should then go to a preview page after ?

[NoCodeUK]

Matt,

You said that because MC is simply acting as a front end it usses the same filters uswed by other software??  How do I change what it is using cos on my system it is certainly not using the same filters as Power DVD!!  Any advice on how to sort this would be appreciated...

Adam

[PhatPhreddy]

See users want ZP like features already !!

The filters that are loaded may have loading options in MJ but if they dont I presume they load the defualt priority filters... Filters get assigned priority at install and these can be manipulated through the registry and safer through Graphedit (from MS)...

To be honest I do all my playing either in ZP direct or with a combo of ZP and Graphedit for new stuff...

Try using Graphedit to set priority to PowerDVD (which is IMHO the worst video filter after WinDVD4 NDVD2 Sonic1.5 in appreciating order... I have not looked at cool DVD filters in a while but I am told they are doing thier own now instead of simply direct show but not verified this) filters...

[Cmagic]

My 2 centimes,

1/ I rarely use my computer to watch DVD's. I prefer to use the DVD player in the living room.

2/ When I do use my computer to watch DVD's I use PowerDVD XP because MC gives me a DVD error when I try to play a DVD. It's not an issue for me since I very rarely use my PC to watch DVD,s. Note that I always use MC to watch AVI's (Divx).

3/ I think DVD content should be presented in a clearer way (by chapters) not in the 'DVD Title 1 (21 chapters)' way. since you cannot really guess what's the content of such and such titles.
The killer feature would be to add some kind of DVD/Divx ripping function and then manage and views Divx (that's waht I already do with MC) but that's an other story !

salut !

[Zoner]

1) How much do you use your computer to watch DVD's?

My wife and/or I watch DVDs on our HTPC (via a DLP projector) every other day.

2) When you do watch a DVD, do you use Media Center or some other program like ZoomPlayer or WinDVD?

We use PowerDVD XP.

3) If you use some other program, why?  What enhancements does Media Center need in this area?

For starters, you need to be able to play INF files direct from the hard disk like PowerDVD XP can.  Until MC has that feature, we can't even consider it, since we rarely watch DVDs straight from the disc.  Once MC9 can play INFs, we can give it a try and provide more feedback.

To be honest, I am very tempted to buy the TT player after reading the description of it above.  I've known about TT and ZP for a long time, but have always been put off TT because there's no trial version.  It's been around for quite a while now and judging from the write-up above, it's exactly what we're looking for - something designed for running from a Pronto, and that just works with no messing around.

Of course having all that build-in to MC9 would mean I wouldn't have to switch between two programs...

[NoCodeUK]

K, where do I get this graph edit thing then???  I have Zoom Player also so I could set this as my priority too.  Dunno what MC is using at the moment but it is completely unwatchable...

Adam

[nila]

I use my computer quite a bit to watch films.

This is sometimes in the form of DVD's, DiVx's, mv2's, avi's, and other video formats.

It changes a lot.

What I plan to do when I get a bit more cash is rip my entire collection of friends to DiVx then save them all on my hard drive and catalogue them using MJ.

For this I will definitely need it's own custom view as the fields I am going to want are:
episode name, series, plot and that's it.
If I can easily switch to a mode like this I'm going to have a 'friends' library where I can switch to it and I'd like all the view schemes, sort orders etc to all be maintained with the library so that it's now in 'friends' choosing mode. An ability to jump to totally different stored setup's like this with the library would allow me to TOTALLY use MJ for everything easily and cleanly.


I currently dont use MJ however for playing my video's as it's not worth the hassle. It crashes without fail almost every time during video playback which is the BIGGEST problem, there are no easy zoom, ratio, etc controls, the controls are all too generalised as in the controls are MJ's normal controls. I'd want video specific options purely when I'm watching a film for pure simplicity.

If MJ adapted it's controls and menu's depending on what media type was being played and it could actually handle my video's without crashing I'd be a lot more inclined to use it.

I use PowerDVD for most of my playback purely because of it's ability to play all my files perfectly without crashing ever.

I like Windows Media player however because it's controls are so easy and clear to use.
A few simple clear buttons for play/pause, rewind, forward etc with easy clear buttons to instant control over the saturation, brightness etc to let me tweak how the video looks.

I know MJ is the king of all App but if it wants to truely conquor all types of media I think it really needs to realise that each type of media has to be treated totally seperately.

I cant see anyone (ok well other than a VERY few geeks) wanting to play a video file and wanting to use a 'track info' page. They'll (95% of your users) will just want to watch the video and want video controls.
If your looking at an image and choose to play now, then not instantly moving to playing now makes no sense unless your building up a playlist of images but then you'll want image controls and not volume controls.

MJ's problem is going to be this with moving into all types of media.

Computer literate people like myself and a lot of the users of this board will want powerful control and features and wont mind using several app's. MJ right now just doesn't have the power, features or control to make it 'The App to use'.
Computer illiterate people are going to not care what they're using as long as it's simple and easy. Again MJ would fail this as it's controls are specific to the type of media it's playing. They're too complex and there's too many options for them.

[nila]

Ok - I've tested loads of my players and here are the features I like from each player.
A few of these might be in MJ but I'm not sure so I'm just posting all the features I love, you can ignore the ones you have:

The Playa

• Easy to jump between size's for the video (Alt + 1,2 or 3 changes to 1/2 original size, original size, double size)
  
• EASY to change ration of the film (Ctrl + 1,2,3,4 = original, TV 4:3, Widescreen 16:9, Custom, Free) and playback in ALL of these modes is SMOOTH and clear.
  
• ALL shortcut keys are clearly labeled and almost all features/modes can be quickly accessed via shortcut keys.
  
• Simple clear basic controls.
  
• Crystal clear, perfect playing in fast forward mode.
  
  
  gDiVx player
  
• Ease of resizing player window
  
  
  Micro DVD Player - This player has too many options - It's nice even though it could really do with having them split into: options and 'advanced options' with just the basic options combined into one screen and then ALL the options under 'advanced'
  
• Option to 'Jump To Time' - Lets you just quickly to any hour/minute/second in the film instantly
  
• Quick 'Jump To Chapter' option.
  
• Complete configuration of which keys are assigned to what functions.
  
  
  Zoom Player
  
• EASY to change playback speed (faster, slower (ie frame by frame advance))
  
• Full configuration over what double click, mouse, single click, etc do during playback.
  
• Control over what buttons appear on the toolbar during full screen playback (similar to configuring a toolbar)
  
• Many Others
  
  
  If you really want to try hit it on the head exactly how to make the best player I suggest you download these players (these are just shareware ones that I've used in the past that work well) as well as PowerDVD, WinDVD etc and work out what features, GUI, options etc make them stand out and basically just write down things u like and dont like about each player. But actually try it, load up a video, give yourself a set of like 10 tasks to try on each player and then see what features u think are necessities.
  
  You really might want to consider creating media type specific options within MJ.
  Like break down the options page into main categories with sub categories beneath it with media type options as the categories.
  All of these players have HUGE numbers of options to do with playback and all these options could be included into a main category called: 'Video Playback' or 'Video'
  You could have others for: 'Audio', 'Graphic'
  
  Each of these are totally different media types with different things we want for each so having specific controls over each type makes a LOT of sense. You could write down a list of all the options provided between these players and then see which ones were important and worth keeping.
  
  
  That's why I NEVER use Winamp 3 for video playback and dont even consider it, it's just not easy and simple to use. It's too designed for anything which means it's not designing for anything and as such video playback on it really isn't easy or simple, or at least not compared to any of these players.