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[audunth]

Hi!

Does anyone know of a plugin or filter with Dolby ProLogic IIx support? My receiver can make 5.1 -> 7.1 with DPL IIx, but since I'm planning to use separate room correction filters for each speaker, I'd rather do it in the player. I know FFDShow can apply the two extra channels by copying two of the existing channels, but I'm looking for a solution that will matrix the two extra channels from the source using DPL IIx or some other advanced matrix, not just copying existing channels.

[Matt]

The JRSS channel mixing engine built into Media Center is very good.

You can also use third-party VST (or similar) plugins.

[audunth]

Cool, does it "intelligently" use the existing 5 main channels to figure out the last 2 like DPL IIx does? Also, if I put output format on top, all other DSP plugins will receive 8 channels for further processing, right?

[sunfire7]

Matt, last time I checked (lots of builds ago) the JRSS channel mixing engine upmixed 2.0 to 5.1 but not from 5.1 to 7.1 !

[Matt]

JRSS intelligently creates any channels that don't explicitly exist.  It can convert 2.0 to 7.1.

Coming in build 58 are some improvements to how it builds the rear channels:
Changed: JRSS improvements to matrixing algorithms used for rear channel creation. (applies to 2.0 -> 7.1 and 5.1 -> 7.1 conversion)

[mojave]

Cool, does it "intelligently" use the existing 5 main channels to figure out the last 2 like DPL IIx does? Also, if I put output format on top, all other DSP plugins will receive 8 channels for further processing, right?

Regardless of where you put the Output Format DSP, it is actually always first in the chain.

I have been using JRSS for 5.1 to 7.1 and comparing to Dolby PLIIx (in my soundcard's drivers) for several months now. JRSS works quite well.

[Arbiter]

JRSS intelligently creates any channels that don't explicitly exist.  It can convert 2.0 to 7.1.

Coming in build 58 are some improvements to how it builds the rear channels:
Changed: JRSS improvements to matrixing algorithms used for rear channel creation. (applies to 2.0 -> 7.1 and 5.1 -> 7.1 conversion)

Offtopic, but i'm really curious on how this is going to play out! I'm using JRSS for 2.0 to 5.1 channel upmixing when listening to music with my Roccat Kave (5.1 Headphones) and already does an awesome job.

[audunth]

JRSS intelligently creates any channels that don't explicitly exist.  It can convert 2.0 to 7.1.

Coming in build 58 are some improvements to how it builds the rear channels:
Changed: JRSS improvements to matrixing algorithms used for rear channel creation. (applies to 2.0 -> 7.1 and 5.1 -> 7.1 conversion)

Sounds good. I'll try it out and see how it compares to the DPL IIx in my Yamaha receiver.

Just an idea: How about presence channels and upmixing to 9.1 like DPL IIz or even 11.1 like the Yamaha Z11 can?


EDIT: Updated topic name

[mojave]

I watched A Bug's Life last night using 7.1 and JRSS for upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1. The surround field was very immersive and I could hear sounds pan from the sides and around to the back. Good job!

[audunth]

Any comment/update on the possibility of adding presence/width/heighth channels (as in DPL IIz or Yamaha receivers) to JRSS? Would be awesome...

[Matt]

Any comment/update on the possibility of adding presence/width/heighth channels (as in DPL IIz or Yamaha receivers) to JRSS? Would be awesome...

Do you have a 9.1 system?  How are you outputting 10 discrete channels from your computer?

Does anyone else want this?  I'm never sure if the arms race to add channels is for a checkbox on a spec sheet or if people are really using it widely.

Thanks.

[audunth]

I currently have a 7.1 system. My Yamaha receiver (RX-V3900) can only handle surround back channels OR presence channels, not both at the same time. I guess I would have to run the last 2 channels through a second sound card hooked up to a second amplifier if possible, or set up a 7.1 system with presence/height channels instead of surround back, which I know many Yamaha owners already do.

I don't know how many users of MC will use such a feature, nor do I know how much developing work is needed, so I guess I'll leave it up to you developers to figure out if it's worth it. I guess when/if video cards with HDMI outputs able to output more than 8 channels PCM hit the market it will really be useful.

[flac.rules]

Do you have a 9.1 system?  How are you outputting 10 discrete channels from your computer?

Does anyone else want this?  I'm never sure if the arms race to add channels is for a checkbox on a spec sheet or if people are really using it widely.

Thanks.

The DSX wide channels are arguably more useful than the 7.1 back-channels, and thus a similar system could be supported. However this probably would take quite a bit of work, require a setup not comptible with other rograms than MC, and frankly not be used by many (although it would be cool). Even though I probably would use it, I think your time is spent better on other features at the moment, if I am trying to see it more or less objectivly.

[fitbrit]

Do you have a 9.1 system?  How are you outputting 10 discrete channels from your computer?

Does anyone else want this?  I'm never sure if the arms race to add channels is for a checkbox on a spec sheet or if people are really using it widely.

Thanks.

I curerntly have a 11.1 system, and my Onkyo receiver can handle 9.1 of those at any give time. Movies sound great with he Dolby PLIIz Height channels, and music is so much fuller with the Audessey DSX Wide ones.

The thing is that I am very happy to let my receiver matrix these, as that's what it's designed for. Is sending 9.1 channels of audio even possible with current HDMI technology? Is there a consumer sound card that could send more than 8 analog channels simultaneously?

[audunth]

The current HDMI standard specifies 8 channels, so I guess there's no receivers or sound/video cards that can output more than that. I don't know if the 8 channels specified in the standard is absolute or if it's a minimum and allows for more.

Anyway running more than 8 channels through LPCM would require an advanced setup with several external DACs/amplifiers and more than one sound/video card that has to be in sync, if it's even possible.

It would be a really cool feature to be able to play around with presence, height, width etc. instead of centre back channels for different movies in a 7.1 setup, and I would most certainly use it if it worked well, but I agree there's probably more importand features to be prioritized. So if you guys in development would like to do it for fun, great, if not, I guess it wouldn't be too many disappointed souls out there

[fitbrit]

The current HDMI standard specifies 8 channels, so I guess there's no receivers or sound/video cards that can output more than that. I don't know if the 8 channels specified in the standard is absolute or if it's a minimum and allows for more.

NO sound cards can ouput more than 8, but some receivers like my 9.2 receiver can... they just can't input that many channels and have to generate the additional ones internally. Rain, wind and overhead aircraft sound great in Dolby IIz Height; with the 9.2 channel receivers, you can keep the surround backs as well. It makes the opening action sequence in Bolt spectacular!

The lower end new Onkyo receivers are 7.2, and you can assign the last 2.x channels as height or width rather than surround back. So you can have 5.1 plus width or height/presence. I thnk it's best to let MC15 play by the regular standards and allow the end user to buy the appropriate receiver/processor to get the surround effects they desire.

[audunth]

Sorry, I misspoke a bit, what I meant is that there's no soundcards that can output more than 8 channels and no receivers that can input more than 8 through HDMI. I know there are several receivers that can matrix and output extra channels. Yamaha has for years through their own proprietary alogrithms and now Dolby, DTS and Audyssey is coming after. I guess it's not long before all new receivers can. My own Yamaha RX-V3900 can add front presence channels at the expense of back centre, so at least I can play around with that

[fitbrit]

Sorry, I misspoke a bit, what I meant is that there's no soundcards that can output more than 8 channels and no receivers that can input more than 8 through HDMI. I know there are several receivers that can matrix and output extra channels. Yamaha has for years through their own proprietary alogrithms and now Dolby, DTS and Audyssey is coming after. I guess it's not long before all new receivers can. My own Yamaha RX-V3900 can add front presence channels at the expense of back centre, so at least I can play around with that

Yes, the Yamaha presence channels were the deciding factor for me when I bought my RX-V663 a few years ago. The RX-V663 was strange in that the manual made no mention of the exclusivity between the presence speakers or the rear backs. I think that it might even have been able to dynamically switch back and forth between them, because the surround field indicator showed both presence and surround back at the same time in PLIIx mode. I used mine for dialog lift, because my centre speaker was so close to the floor.

Now with the Onkyo 5007, I'm hooked on high or wide!

[audunth]

Yeah, I'd also like to try high/wide/back presence etc. since I've just replaced my speakers and still got the old ones. So I would definately be one of the users of those features if the MC developers decide to implement such channels sometime in the future. My Yamaha is too new to replace in the coming few years, unless I stumble over a rather large sum of money 

For now I'm very happy with my standard 7.1 setup though

[fitbrit]

I'm still unsure whether you're missing the point here; the wide/high speaker systems are here already. MC developers don't need to do anything. The new generation of receivers takes care of it by intelligent matrixing. The only people who'd benefit from MC doing the matrixing in the computer are those who only use amplifiers connected directly to the PC, without the need for a receiver.

[audunth]

I'm well aware that new receivers can deliver those channels, I'm saying my Yamaha can't, but, as I wrote in my previous post, I won't replace it in the near future, cause it's not long since I bought it. So for me to play around with those new surround formats (except for the already mentioned Yamaha front presence channels which my receiver DOES support), they would have to be available in MC or some other plugin/filter.

[fitbrit]

I'm well aware that new receivers can deliver those channels, I'm saying my Yamaha can't, but, as I wrote in my previous post, I won't replace it in the near future, cause it's not long since I bought it. So for me to play around with those new surround formats (except for the already mentioned Yamaha front presence channels which my receiver DOES support), they would have to be available in MC or some other plugin/filter.

Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. We recently bought a house and renovated it. Money was being spent very freely, and in large quantities. At that point I decided to just splash out and buy anything I wanted for home theatre use (within reason). Since about November, I've been on this spree of updating a lot of things; new Dolby IIz format? - hey I better buy a receiver that can do it. Need whole house music capability? - I better buy a couple of 23" touchscreens while they're on sale. I guess I just lost track of the fact that not everyone wants to, or can, upgrade stuff like crazy. I will shortly have to re-enter the real world, which was absent from my temporary insanity!

I've been trying to think of a way how the intelligent matrixing, done by MC could be input into existing receivers. I don't think it can, because at most they have 7.1 inputs, but these channels are accounted for by a traditional surround system... unless one uses a zone 2 input to reassign the surround backs as presence channels, or uses a separate amplifier for the non-conventional surround speakers.

[audunth]

For more than 7.1 channels, I guess one would have to use a more advanced setup with several sound cards/external DACs and as many power amps as needed. 5.1 plus any two presence/height/width etc. channels is no problem since all new receivers accept 8 channels LPCM. Which means one could use normal 7.1 for action movies with a lot of surround effects, extra front channels for movies with mostly dialogue etc.

[HiFiTubes]

I watched A Bug's Life last night using 7.1 and JRSS for upmixing from 5.1 to 7.1. The surround field was very immersive and I could hear sounds pan from the sides and around to the back. Good job!

When do the sounds correspond to those that are heard behind the viewer (you)? Just curious if it is for something coming in out of the field of vision behind you, as you can get a very wide stereo image in 2.0...

Do they add ambiance so it feels like you are in the room with the off camera "extras" mumbling behind you?

Again just curious as I'm only 2 channel, I assume some movies benefit more than others?

[mojave]

When do the sounds correspond to those that are heard behind the viewer (you)? Just curious if it is for something coming in out of the field of vision behind you, as you can get a very wide stereo image in 2.0...

The sounds heard to the side and behind are best represented by surround speakers. A good 5.1 system with the surrounds located slightly behind the listener will present a wide rear stereo image just like you get from the front. In my room, my side surrounds are slightly in front of the listening position so a 7.1 setup works best for me.

The sounds in the surround channels represent what what is physically beside or behind the listener as you watch the movie. In Bug's Life, you get the insect noises (caterpillars eating cilantro  ), leaves rustling, wind noise, rain and much more that make you feel like you are in the middle of a field. The goal is to make you feel like you are in the action rather than with your back up against a cliff and everything is happening in front of you. Here are some of the many things you will hear behind you:  gunshots, footsteps, engine noises, city noises, planes & helicopters flying overhead, an entire army behind you as you advance forward in a war movie, explosions, hoof beats, etc. It is just like being there in real life.

Do they add ambiance so it feels like you are in the room with the off camera "extras" mumbling behind you?

No, it makes you feel like you are "in" the movie rather than watching the movie. There are two ways to listen to books on tape/cd. One is with the the book just read by one person and no extra sounds. The other is with the book read with different readers for each character and the full assortment of sounds. For example, I have the BBC dramatization of the Lord of the Rings trilogy (from 1981). This made me feel like I was in the action as opposed to reading a book. Surround does the same for movies:  it puts you into the scene. 

Again just curious as I'm only 2 channel, I assume some movies benefit more than others?

Yes, some movies benefit more. I think action/adventure movies probably benefit the most.

[HiFiTubes]

The sounds heard to the side and behind are best represented by surround speakers. A good 5.1 system with the surrounds located slightly behind the listener will present a wide rear stereo image just like you get from the front. In my room, my side surrounds are slightly in front of the listening position so a 7.1 setup works best for me.

The sounds in the surround channels represent what what is physically beside or behind the listener as you watch the movie. In Bug's Life, you get the insect noises (caterpillars eating cilantro  ), leaves rustling, wind noise, rain and much more that make you feel like you are in the middle of a field. The goal is to make you feel like you are in the action rather than with your back up against a cliff and everything is happening in front of you. Here are some of the many things you will hear behind you:  gunshots, footsteps, engine noises, city noises, planes & helicopters flying overhead, an entire army behind you as you advance forward in a war movie, explosions, hoof beats, etc. It is just like being there in real life. No, it makes you feel like you are "in" the movie rather than watching the movie. There are two ways to listen to books on tape/cd. One is with the the book just read by one person and no extra sounds. The other is with the book read with different readers for each character and the full assortment of sounds. For example, I have the BBC dramatization of the Lord of the Rings trilogy (from 1981). This made me feel like I was in the action as opposed to reading a book. Surround does the same for movies:  it puts you into the scene.  Yes, some movies benefit more. I think action/adventure movies probably benefit the most.

Excellent summary, thanks! (I miss eating cilantro  )