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[Ed.M.]

Greetings!

What I have:
Front End: WDTV Live Plus media player, plasma HDTV and a receiver
Back End: two Win7 boxes over gigabit wired network
Content: streaming audio (FLAC, etc) and video (MKVs, ISO, etc)

What I want:
1. Bitstream everything (FLAC, APE, WMV, multi-channel audio, etc)
2. Internet streaming (Hulu, Netflix, Amazon etc)
3. Internet browsing with Flash and Silverlight support

Initially, I was thinking to get a high end media player like Dune HD Smart -- this would give me bitstreaming but its price is close to an HTPC that delivers full desktop features, including Hulu and Amazon streaming.

So, now I am thinking to build an Win7 HTPC for about $400 instead. Requirements are:
1. Audio side: Bitstream everything and up to 5.1 channels. This is very important.
2. Video side: no 3d playback required; do need excellent video quality playback of everything else including BD ISOs
3. Storage: small SSD for OS; no massive local storage required, at least not in this build.
4. Nothing fancy. A decent HTPC case that I can get for $50 or so will do. Again this is going to be my first HTPC build (not a first PC build though :-D) and I want to keep things simple.

Considering the info above, which CPU/MoBo combo should I go with?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Ed

[InflatableMouse]

I own one of these, I love it.

It fits all your requirements and your budget, plus it does 3D too .

[Ed.M.]

The ION 3D looks great except from what I've read it won't deliver Netflix HD due to lack of Silverlight hardware acceleration. Is this correct? And if so then I should probably stay away from Atom CPUs?

[Ed.M.]

Looking at pre-built/barebone systems, what about this little box: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856205001

AMD Hudson M1
AMDFusion APU E350
HDMI/VGA Dual Display
Integrated ATI Radeon HD6310 graphics
High Definition Audio 8-Channel
2 x Mini PCIe 2.0
2 x 3Gb/s SATA2 ports
Built-in DC to DC Converter
DC12V 5A Power Adapter
Fanless Aluminum Chassis
Color: Black (custom color is available for special order)
OS support: Windows 7, XP, Vista, Linux, FreeBSD

[InflatableMouse]

The ION 3D looks great except from what I've read it won't deliver Netflix HD due to lack of Silverlight hardware acceleration. Is this correct? And if so then I should probably stay away from Atom CPUs?

Maybe this helps? I can't test it myself though.

I don't know enough about AMD hardware to judge that little box from newegg, sorry.

[glynor]

And if so then I should probably stay away from Atom CPUs?

I'd definitely stay away from Atom.

I might even stay away from AMD, though the new Llano chips are pretty nice.  I've struggled with their chipset quality and drivers though for the past few years, and it has soured me on them somewhat.  Supposedly Llano has finally mostly-fixed the SATA and USB problems, but I'd believe it when I see it.  Anandtech did a nice write up on building your own HTPC based on Llano recently, though, if you're interested.  Even if you buy a pre-built system, you might get some good advice there.

For my money?  I'd go with an Intel system.  You could wait for them to release desktop dual-core variants, but really, Sandy Bridge is perfectly good (especially if you plan to throw a discreet graphics card in there).  Ivy is almost entirely about power savings, not performance.  Sandy and Ivy are pretty evenly matched in the CPU performance realm.  Plus, if you choose the board well (or pick a good pre-built) you can always switch to an Ivy later.

ASRock makes some very nice Intel-based small-form-factor PCs.  Check out the Vision series.

[InflatableMouse]

I'd definitely stay away from Atom.

Each to his own of course, but you're not the man of unfounded one liners. Care to elaborate? . If you speak of the older Atoms then yes, I can understand. The 525's are quite a bit better with HT, 64-bit and 4GB memory support.

If your opinion is based on Anand's review, allow me to give my view on his cons:

• USB 3.0 devices may not be needed by the target users of this device, and do not operated at full speed

Maybe so, but the USB 3 is considerably faster than the USB 2. My 2GB USB 3.0 drives see a 50-60GB sustained speed. It's speed is up to par with my main machine, i7 on MSI P67A-GD80.

• No Bitstreaming support may be a deal-breaker for some users

I don't understand what he is talking about, I use bitstreaming exclusively and never had a problem (XBMC).

• The processing platform is "quick enough" for playback of media content, but can be slow at skipping, and navigation

Never had an issue with it. Maybe its the player he used to or a combination of things. Fast forward is smooth except at 8x, it goes smooth for a few secs then skips and goes smooth again; this is quite normal for the limited processing power it has. Normal skipping forward and back is not an issue. I use it every day as I skip the intro's of series (previously at...).

• Performance / Price can be greatly enhanced by opting for a slightly higher model such as the Core 100HT

Although I did buy the BD version, I regret doing so. I don't use the drive and the machine comes without a license to play bluray (which I didn't realize). The version without BD (and comes with a regular DVD drive) can be had for 300 euros.

Anand is being a cheaky git because the price difference he's quoting is comparing apples with oranges. He compares the ION price with bluray drive with the 100HT with DVD drive. The cheapest I could find with bluray is the Asrock CoreHT 233B which goes for 180 euros more than the ION 3D with BD. More than double than what Anand is quoting.

The Vision is exponentially more expensive, the cheapest goes for 700 euros (8 or 900 dollars?). The i5's are over a 1000 euro's, for that money I build a full blown workstation with an Ivy i7, SSD and 16GB memory.

I've had mine for quite some time now and I can find no fault with it. It handles ROHQ 1080p with DTS with CPU to spare, no problems whatsoever. Win7 is smooth and it handles all my series automatic downloads, repairs and unpacks without trouble. It's reasonably fast and working with MC17 feels no different than on my own machine. Oke when its really busy it can get a bit sluggish but that's mainly an issue with the 2,5" laptop harddisk being slow, an SSD would fix that. Typically background downloads do not interfere with video playback unless repair is required (I suspend that on a schedule to be done when I'm a sleep).

Last but not least, when i wake it from its slumber XMBC is sluggish for a few seconds. After that all is back to normal. I think that's quite normal too.

I can't judge wifi, I've never used it as I wire everything.

Seriously, I can find no fault with it. Did I say its silent too? It is . If you have few hundred more, by all means build your own but limited to 4 or 500 dollars, I don't think there is a better deal. It beat my expectations in every respect.

[glynor]

That Atom (the D525) is VERY old (released in 2010), and is basically just barely sufficient to handle today's tasks as a HTPC.  If you are buying today, it would stand to reason that you'd want to keep the machine in service for another 3 years or so (minimum).

Atom + ION employs an old GPU with an even older CPU design to just barely keep it's head above water (with supported decoders).  Sure, it might be able to handle decoding 1080p video content, but at what quality?  What bitrates?  If you throw 20mbps or 40mbps BluRay sources at it, will it handle those?  Will it handle those with good quality, or will it drop the ball?  Hardware acceleration is often a mess, and particularly so with older components.  The GPU in that system is OLD, and without it, the Atom is useless.  The Atom line badly needs a refresh, but the bottom fell out on the netbook market (well, the iPad murdered it), and Intel stopped pushing them out anywhere near as often.  A refresh will be coming in 2013, but it will be almost certainly targeted at tablets and smartphones and trying to compete with ARM on Windows 8.  We'll see how it does.  Intel has made many promises before.

For now?  What about tomorrow, or next year, or the year after that?  A CPU that was the bottom-of-the-barrel 18 months ago, and that hasn't been updated since, seems like a poor choice (considering the still-inflated prices).

For my money, today, I'd look for a Sandy Bridge mobile system or better.  Possibly Llano if you think you might want to do light gaming on the system (and don't want to go with a discreet GPU in a bigger system), and are willing to deal with some occasional driver frustrations.

[Ed.M.]

Great discussion and lots of useful info here guys!

InflatableMouse, did you do anything special with your XBMC to enable bitstreaming? Asking because as far as I know, only the new version that's about to be released has true bitstream support, at least officially.

Thanks,
Ed.

[pcstockton]

I am absolutely LOVING my ASRock.  I have the best CoreHT model (no discreet graphics), i5 2520M, HD3000 etc... 

Slap an SSD and 8gb of RAM in there and you have a formidable, small, quiet machine.

No problems with any video playback, boots in 20 seconds and is fast with MC.

-Patrick

[Ed.M.]

Ed (glynor), you're associated with JRiver, right? I am wondering then why you guys don't build reference systems kinda like tomshardware does. I am sure if you could take the guesswork and potential costly mistakes off of your potential customers' shoulders your product(s) would sell better.

[JimH]

While glynor may be a lot smarter than we are, he isn't a JRiver staff person.  He lives too far away (1200 miles) to commute.

Your suggestion is interesting, but things change too fast for us to stay current.

[Ed.M.]

While glynor may be a lot smarter than we are, he isn't a JRiver staff person.  He lives too far away (1200 miles) to commute.

Your suggestion is interesting, but things change too fast for us to stay current.

Haha.

Jim, I hope you guys do give the idea of a reference system(s) serious consideration. The reality is that one of the big advantages that your product has vs your competition is bitstreaming. Well, as you are probably aware, the upcoming version of XBMC will have it too. And XBMC is free.
It's tough to compete with free.

Have you guys had reference system examples, you would have already had my money and I would have already ordered parts for my HTPC. 

You don't even have to build a complete unit -- just a working bench setup consisting of a a Mobo/CPU/RAM/SSD/PSU and software. PSU, SSD and possibly RAM too can be re-used between builds. Put it together, show us performance tests and tell us if it makes sense to spend more money and how it will improve things.

I am a computer tech. Believe it or not, when my kid and I decided to build a gaming rig for him I had to go to Tomshardware to see what they've built and how well it worked for my son's gaming needs. And then all I had to do is order parts, assemble them and the system booted on my first try. Everyone's happy!

I hope you give it some thought.

Respectfully,
Ed

[Ed.M.]

...

For my money, today, I'd look for a Sandy Bridge mobile system or better... 

This makes sense although barebone pricing bites. I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks for the info!

[Ed.M.]

So I've tried to mimic Patrick's AsRock CoreHT setup but with an i3 CPU. Here's what I've got so far (newegg):

1. G.SKILL Value Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model F3-10600CL9D-8GBNT
Item #: N82E16820231422
2. hec Black 0.7mm Thickness SECC Steel 7K09BBA30FNRX Micro ATX Media Center 300W Power Supply / HTPC Case
Item #: N82E16811121100
3. Intel Core i3-2105 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 3000 BX80623I32105
Item #:  N82E16819115090
4. ASRock H61M/U3S3 LGA 1155 Intel H61 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Item #:  N82E16813157236

So far I'm at $298. Add a Crucial M4 64GB SSD ($80) and I'm at $380.

Thoughts?

[pcstockton]

So I've tried to mimic Patric's AsRock CoreHT setup but with an i3 CPU. Here's what I've got so far (newegg):

I would not have bought the ASRock at full retail, which I think was $899.  I scored an open-box for $570 and just couldn't help myself.  Add another $140 for the Intel 128GB SSD and $60 for 8GBs of 1600 RAM and it all seems reasonably priced to me.  I guess I could sell the 4GB ram sticks the ASRock came with and the 1TB Scorpion drive, but I am sure I will never make the effort.

I had an extra copy of Win 7 just sitting there (i have a good friend at Microsoft), so the bare bones was preferred.

-Patrick

[glynor]

4. ASRock H61M/U3S3 LGA 1155 Intel H61 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Item #:  N82E16813157236

If you can swing it (the older ones might be on sale though, I didn't look), get a H77 or Z77 board instead.  That'll guarantee that you can upgrade to an Ivy later if you want to, and it'll support the Sandy Bridge CPU for now just fine.

Both ASRock and ASUS make some very nice small form factor H/Z77 motherboards (main difference between the Z77 and the H77 is overclocking support and support for multiple video cards, neither of which is likely to make a lot of sense in a SFF box).

Also, definitely get an SSD if you can swing it (that'd probably be more important than any other single factor).  The bigger drives perform way better, so get the biggest one you can afford.  The M4 is a bit old, but is a good choice (and prices are good on it, especially if you wait for a sale/promo code).  I'm looking to pick up a ~500GB one for my laptop as soon as I can afford it.

Also, Tech Report puts together some REALLY nice system guides, if you're ever looking.

[glynor]

While glynor may be a lot smarter than we are, he isn't a JRiver staff person.  He lives too far away (1200 miles) to commute.

 

Certainly not smarter.

Louder often.

[Daydream]

Thoughts?

Core i3 Ivy Bridge supposed to be launched in a week...? Lower TDP, better graphics - Anandtech has better HQV scores for HD4000 than HD3000. The ASRock mobo will take it with a BIOS upgrade. Just saying.

[InflatableMouse]

That Atom (the D525) is VERY old (released in 2010), and is basically just barely sufficient to handle today's tasks as a HTPC.  If you are buying today, it would stand to reason that you'd want to keep the machine in service for another 3 years or so (minimum).

Atom + ION employs an old GPU with an even older CPU design to just barely keep it's head above water (with supported decoders).

I wouldn't call it VERY old . With just over 2 years I'd call it aging, not VERY old . 4K screens are on their way but I don't see the next media supporting 4K coming out in 3 years. I think its safe to say that for the coming three years, not much if anything will change. The ION already supports 3D and although I can't test it it's supposed to work fine. So with that in mind, even though its not the latest greatest, it does what its supposed to do and we can expect it to do it for the coming years too. And that's purely from a HTPC perspective speaking. Don't use it as a workstation, don't use it to convert or transcode and don't game on it. For me, it just sits there to play videos and music, no more, no less and it's been doing it perfectly for me.

Atom + ION employs an old GPU with an even older CPU design to just barely keep it's head above water (with supported decoders).  Sure, it might be able to handle decoding 1080p video content, but at what quality?  What bitrates?

I can't see anything wrong with the video quality of the ION, its smooth, colors are vibrant and it looks the same as my hardware player, Panasonic DMP-BD35. So far it has played everything including all the blurays I have (Planet Earth, bird scene and others) and I would even say it looks better as the Panasonic looks less smooth.

MC17 on Red October HQ, bitstreaming everything enabled, adjust audio to smooth video enabled and pretty much every other setting to increase quality, the machine averages below 20% CPU load (total, so ~10% on each core). GPU doesn't seem to do much either by the looks of its temperature.

Mind you the OP gave a budget, 400 dollars. I wouldn't have suggested the ION if he quoted a bigger budget. Your suggestion of the CoreHT 235D is obviously a better choice but 150 dollars over the budget.

With a budget of 500-600 dollars I would suggest building your own machine (its what I'm going to do myself this year). If it has to be pre-built, that ASRock you suggest is probably the best value for money.

InflatableMouse, did you do anything special with your XBMC to enable bitstreaming? Asking because as far as I know, only the new version that's about to be released has true bitstream support, at least officially.

Thanks,
Ed.

Sorry for the confusion, MC17 is set to bitstream everything. As you say XBMC does not currently support bitstreaming.

[glynor]

Core i3 Ivy Bridge supposed to be launched in a week...?

Darn.  I didn't know they were coming so soon.  Haven't been paying attention.  Are they shipping or is it a paper launch?

If you're going to use the integrated GPU, wait for Ivy if it is so close to shipping.  Even if you don't buy one, that should drop the prices on the older Sandy CPUs until they sell out.

In CPU performance, Ivy isn't much better than Sandy.  The GPU is WAY better though.

[glynor]

Yeah.  I just looked.  Intel bumped up the launch date to June 24th (or "the week of" anyway).  I'd heard 3rd Quarter before, and figured it'd be one of the last days of the quarter, but they moved it up.

[Daydream]

Ultimately, for 3D playback, madvr, accurate framerate matching, deinterlacing, low power - does an all-in-one solution cut it now or dedicated graphics card is still best? I'm wrecking my brains and can't decide.

Llano is no future (socket), Trinity is going to be released anywhere from now to August. But I'm not convinced they are the best bet as either power used, to price, to features. I would rather prefer a Core i3 setup but I kind of having doubts about Intel drivers. It may be just me but when switching from 3D back to 2D there's black crush everywhere like the colorspace got shot to hell (tested with my SB Core i5 and TMT5). While I've always liked my AMD dedicated cards, but that would make the entire build too expensive, too much power draw, etc (I'm aiming for an ITX form factor).

Any general consensus?

[Ed.M.]

Looks like it'd be a wise thing for me to wait for Ivy launch. Good advice.
Although my initial target was $400 or less, I can bump it up a few hundred bucks if it gets me where I want to be (a GOOD, expandable setup that will serve me well for a few years).
Thanks to everyone who's offered advice/opinion!

[InflatableMouse]

I need to confess something ...

So far I've used my Atom HTPC to play music with MC17 and video with XBMC. Video tests with bitstreaming I've done with MC17 seems to work fine. I've been very content with that nimble Atom machine and in my enthusiasm I've been defending it arguing it can do anything on todays market which for me, it has been doing just that. Except what I've been doing is only the simplest of tasks and I must admit after some tests that it is not able to much else.

Over the past few days I've been testing the new audio engine with XMBC which can decode every audio stream including the HD formats and send LPCM multichannel over HDMI. The Atom cannot do this, it doesn't have the power and video stutters.

Sync audio (either resample or drop/dupe) to video clock also causes stutters and frame drops.

I still need to test this with MC17 (I only just found out it can decode HD audio with an extra DLL), I'll probably test this weekend.

These are all things I've never used or had a need for, but I still wanted to put this out there as I've been saying its all fine and runs perfect while that is not entirely true. It's been fine for my limited use but anything beyond that is proving to be too much, as I've been finding out in the past couple of days.

[Daydream]

It seems like the Core i3 Ivy Bridge launch covered only the mobile versions, no desktop parts. Anybody heard different? This is kind of a bummer.

[glynor]

Yep.  Mobile only.  They launched only two new parts: i3-3110M (35 watt, 2.4GHz dual-core with Hyperthreading and Turbo Boost) and i3-3217U (ULV 17 watt, 1.8GHz dual core with Hyperthreading and no Turbo and some other stuff disabled to boot).

Clearly the OEMs wanted Ivy parts because they believe that consumers will be loathe to buy "old" Ultrabooks.  I don't know that I agree that Sandy was the "problem" with sales of those devices, but clearly the OEMs exerted pressure and got Intel to throw them a bone.

The rest still appear to be slated for Q3, but Intel isn't talking.  The Core i3-3225 looks like it'll be a nice piece of kit though, when it does launch.

[InflatableMouse]

What do you folks think of the new Asrock that has come out recently?

http://www.asrock.com/nettop/Intel/Vision%20HT%20Series/#Specifications

[daveman]

dumb question:  what exactly is bitstreaming?

Dave

[Ed.M.]

Dave, to bitstream is to transfer digital audio from source like optical media, local hard drive or network storage to your destination of choice (usually high end receiver or amplifier) while keeping the stream in its digital form, untouched and unchanged in any way.

[Ed.M.]

I was placing together a parts list for my Ivy Bridge build and ran into an open box special on Newegg. Couldn't resist, so here's how it looks for now:
1. Case/Mobo/300W PS: Shuttle SH67H3 Intel Core i7 / i5 / i3 (LGA1155) Intel Socket H2(LGA1155) Intel H67 Intel HD Graphics 2000/3000 integrated in the processor 1 x HDMI XPC Barebone
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101117R
2. RAM: Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz 240-pin Desktop Memory

... So far I'm $200 into this.

3. Graphics card, about $120, FANLESS:
a) ASUS HD7750-DCSL-1GD5 Radeon HD 7750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121655
or
b) SAPPHIRE Ultimate Radeon HD 7750 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card (11202-03-40G )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102980

4. CPU: Have a Sandy Bridge quad-core i5 2500s laying around that should do fine.
5. HD: Will use a small 2.5 SSD drive left over from a customer's upgrade

Note about the Shuttle case: if it comes with a v.2 MoBo then it will support Ivy Bridge and I *might* consider an Ivy CPU but probably not ... lol.

I wasn't really going to go this route but the $180 shipped for the Case/MoBo/PSU combo was too good to pass up. I haven't received the Shuttle box yet, so who knows maybe it will be a dud and I will end up sending it back and starting over again. :-)

What do you guys think about the parts so far?

[Ed.M.]

The MoBo in that Shuttle box did turn out to be of a v.2 variety -- nice to know I can go with an Ivy Bridge CPU later on.

I've put everything together and fired it up with no issues so far. Installed JRiver trial and played around. So far so good.

I am giving up on a fanless video card idea: the way the box is laid out, there's not going to be enough airflow over the video card. To be safe, I am thinking to go with the HIS IceQ X H777QN1G2M Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition , about $120 shipped from NewEgg
What I like about this card is people report it to be very quiet and it actually exhausts heat from the back of the card (vs. just spreading it all over the inside of the case).

Someone please talk me out of it! :-)

[Ed.M.]

Good news everyone! HIS IceQ X H777QN1G2M Radeon HD 7770 GHz Edition has been ordered and a 256 GB Samsung 830 SSD drive is coming as well.
Heck, I might actually pay for a JRiver license later this week as well!

Yay.